Bob Lee Swagger versus Batman

Originally posted by Impediment
I understand that, AC. However I want to get everyone else's thoughts. Sometimes words can get misconstrued. If the book version is being used, then the discussion to move to the "Shooter" version of Swagger. Else I'll close the thread.

The only reason I included the novels at first is because I figured not many people had seen Shooter, and that maybe those people had read the books.

So no more book Swagger, movie Swagger only.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you specialise in using irrelevant examples? Saying you are one of those things, then changing your mind are two different things. You either are or you aren't. It's a moot point, there's no yes or no answer for it.

Let's focus on what's relevant, stop dodging: you said "I can't.", not "I can.". What one is it, RJ? They are both opposite to one another. Obviously now it's "I can." because you realise that your original belief (And the one I believe you still hold) would render your thread pointless.

We've all seen the same movie, RJ. I'M not assuming he's that, I'm suggesting he couldn't beat Batman. Hardly a detrimental trait is it?

That's funny.

"Under all that, behind all of his stuff, he's just a man.". Yes, and? It's not Swagger Vs Bruce Wayne, it's Swagger Vs Batman. Why say "Under all that stuff." as if it doesn't matter? That's like saying Swagger could beat Dr. Doom because under everything he would use to win, he's just a man. Yes, but he wouldn't be fighting naked would he? Same with Batman.

Well, you know I'll turn it against you because you know you are getting carried away and digging a hole.

Three weapons, two hands, he can only ever use two at a time. A baseball bat requires both hands and would severely limit his attack and movement, all it takes is ducking a swing or grabbing the bat. A baseball bat also relies on blunt force, which you aren't likely to generate with one arm, so that's out of the question. Knife? Close range, it's as possible that he'll get grabbed, disarmed and beaten as it is that he'll land a stabbing blow.

The machete is the only real weapon that is any threat. A pro boxer would, even still, be adept at dodging swinging attacks. So it's still not a forgone conclusion. I'd give the boxer the win just out of awareness, agility and power.

Next time, take a look at the scenarios you provide and think whether or not they're able to be dissected.

-AC

Why do you keep saying "The Bat". Yes, it is a "nickname" for him, but it is one of those things that you use to spice up your writing a little, in order not to say Batman constantly. Christ, it's even one more button to press. Especially for someone who doesn't even know the most rudimentary facts about Batman, you do use this name a lot. What about that, so you can still pretend to be "in" on Batman, call him the "Caped Crusader" for a page or two, then "The Dark Knight" for another two, and maybe also just "Batman" for a bit, then you can go back to constantly calling him "The Bat". It's a much needed break.

In other news, Batman still hands Bob Bob's ass sticked on a pointy Sniper Rifle 10 our of 10.

Wait, where did I said boxers are trained knife fighters? Where did I say they can deflect a baseball bat? Read what I said, you idiot, or don't reply. Really, RJ.

"Three weapons, two hands, he can only ever use two at a time. A baseball bat requires both hands and would severely limit his attack and movement, all it takes is ducking a swing or grabbing the bat. A baseball bat also relies on blunt force, which you aren't likely to generate with one arm, so that's out of the question. Knife? Close range, it's as possible that he'll get grabbed, disarmed and beaten as it is that he'll land a stabbing blow.".

Where in there did you derive the bs you just pinned to me? And no, I've never been hit with a baseball bat, people don't consider me THAT intolerable.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I already gave that to the Bat fans, I already agreed to discuss only the movie version of Swagger.

The only reason I included the novels at first is because I figured not many people had seen Shooter, and that maybe those people had read the books.

So no more book Swagger, movie Swagger only.

You didn't give it to anyone, you were in the wrong area of criteria so you removed it at my prompting. What's with the dancing?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And no, I've never been hit with a baseball bat, people don't consider me THAT intolerable.

-AC

People that met you in person, anyways.

Because people whom I consider worthy enough to do so are obviously not so mindlessly thuggish that they're use a bat.

Haha, the bat.

RJ got hit with the bat, how funny. Talk about being beaten by that which you beat others with.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wait, where did I said boxers are trained knife fighters? Where did I say they can deflect a baseball bat? Read what I said, you idiot, or don't reply. Really, RJ.

"Three weapons, two hands, he can only ever use two at a time. A baseball bat requires both hands and would severely limit his attack and movement, all it takes is ducking a swing or grabbing the bat. A baseball bat also relies on blunt force, which you aren't likely to generate with one arm, so that's out of the question. Knife? Close range, it's as possible that he'll get grabbed, disarmed and beaten as it is that he'll land a stabbing blow.".

Where in there did you derive the bs you just pinned to me? And no, I've never been hit with a baseball bat, people don't consider me THAT intolerable.

You didn't give it to anyone, you were in the wrong area of criteria so you removed it at my prompting. What's with the dancing?

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What you said implies that a boxer would have no problem facing an opponent armed with a knife or a baseball bat.

What he said is that the machete poses the most danger.

But, a professional heavy weight boxer (lets say a world champion), wouldn't have a problem with you carrying a baseball bat or a knife, I'd wager.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why do you keep saying "The Bat". Yes, it is a "nickname" for him, but it is one of those things that you use to spice up your writing a little, in order not to say Batman constantly. Christ, it's even one more button to press. Especially for someone who doesn't even know the most rudimentary facts about Batman, you do use this name a lot. What about that, so you can still pretend to be "in" on Batman, call him the "Caped Crusader" for a page or two, then "The Dark Knight" for another two, and maybe also just "Batman" for a bit, then you can go back to constantly calling him "The Bat". It's a much needed break.

In other news, Batman still hands Bob Bob's ass sticked on a pointy Sniper Rifle 10 our of 10.

And sure he does, sure THE BAT can avoid the sniper fire, claymores, AND automatic gunfire. I totally forgot he could stop bullets, disarm explosives, and do his taxes all at the same time.

Tell me a scene in the Batman movies that shows him disarming explosives and avoiding machine gun fire at the same time, AFTER avoiding the sniper fire of one of the best marksmen in the world.

Oh thats right, he never did.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What difference does it make what I call him? I call him the Bat AND Batman, different names for the same person. If it makes you feel better you can call Swagger White boy Roy.

It's just annoying.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And sure he does, sure THE BAT can avoid the sniper fire, claymores, AND automatic gunfire. I totally forgot he could stop bullets, disarm explosives, and do his taxes all at the same time.

He could. But what he will probably do is, do a stealth air attack, dodge any bullets (though I'd doubt any would be fired), avoid the Claymores and beat the shit out of the Bob.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Tell me a scene in the Batman movies that shows him disarming explosives and avoiding machine gun fire at the same time, AFTER avoiding the sniper fire of one of the best marksmen in the world.

You assume that Batman would just appear in plain view, wait a bit around, and then try to dodge machine guns with some acrobatics. You assume that Batman is a ****ing idiot. That's why everyone thinks Swagger would lose, because Batman is NOT a ****ing idiot.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Oh thats right, he never did.

Doesn't need to.

Originally posted by Bardock42
What he said is that the machete poses the most danger.

But, a professional heavy weight boxer (lets say a world champion), wouldn't have a problem with you carrying a baseball bat or a knife, I'd wager.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Boxers are trained to punch and avoid being punched. They are trained to use speed, footwork and their hands to block punch attacks, not baseball bat and knife attacks.

They are trained to be fast, strong and durable and to have fast reflexes. Which would all help in a fight. And imo give them the edge over an everyday man with a baseball bat.

Again, for your scenario to work the Boxer would have to stay in place and let the ordinary man take a full swing at his head. Unlikely to happen.

It doesn't actually matter if they are trained to.

I'm not "trained" to avoid a baseball bat, but if someone swings at me, I don't go "SHIT! I WASN'T TRAINED FOR THIS!" and freeze, do I? Use some common sense, RJ. You're 38-39, you shouldn't have to have this kind of simple premise continually explained to you and still not get it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What you said implies that a boxer would have no problem facing an opponent armed with a knife or a baseball bat.

It doesn't imply that, it doesn't IMPLY anything. The meaning of what I said is right there in the text; a boxer could win, it's not clear cut. Not "They're knife fighters who can deflect bats".

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I was breaking up a fight once, a guy facing down three guys in a drunken rage, and I caught the backswing of the bat he was using. So I guess I wasnt really "hit" with the bat, not intentionally, but believe you me, it was a blow that would bring any grown man to his knees.

Yeah, you weren't expecting the backswing either were you? See where this is going? I didn't say they could stand there taking it, but it's avoidable, and you can grab a bat.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I indeed did give it to you, I grew tired of reading over and over how you didn't approve of the conditions, so I dropped it, simple as that.

The conditions that...apply to...the forum? You didn't give me it, it's the rules of the forum. I reminded you, you adhered to them. Not to me, to them.

Why the dented pride? Once again, your inability to both understand has caused thread derailment.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's just annoying.

He could. But what he will probably do is, do a stealth air attack, dodge any bullets (though I'd doubt any would be fired), avoid the Claymores and beat the shit out of the Bob.

You assume that Batman would just appear in plain view, wait a bit around, and then try to dodge machine guns with some acrobatics. You assume that Batman is a ****ing idiot. That's why everyone thinks Swagger would lose, because Batman is NOT a ****ing idiot.

Doesn't need to.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This thread is a perfect scenario, with both guys doing what they do best. But hey, I guess you are going to choose to ignore that.

In this scenario, the Bat LOSES.

so basically you set up a scenario where you think one cant lose...and then you get all stroppy when anyone disagrees?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And Batman would be totally invisible to Swagger, who is trained to track targets, AND has thermal goggles? You doubt any bullets would be fired? Yeah, right, Batman is THAT fast.

Since when did Swagger have training to tackle a man who has stealth ability bordering on the superhuman? I swear he's just, if you break it down, one of the world's elite snipers...at taking out regular targets.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And you are assuming that Swagger will not plan for every probability, aerial stealth attack as well as ground attack, and be ready for either one. As I said, he is an expert at counter intel, so it is safe to say while he might not know about all of Batmans gadgets, he will be familiar with his fighting style.

That is your problem, you assume it's either going to be one or the other.

You again make the mistake of saying "He'd know about Batman.". Al Ghul knew about Batman, he did well.

Originally posted by jaden101
so basically you set up a scenario where you think one cant lose...and then you get all stroppy when anyone disagrees?

Exactly, and that'd be "acceptable" if he were 10.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't actually matter if they are trained to.

I'm not "trained" to avoid a baseball bat, but if someone swings at me, I don't go "SHIT! I WASN'T TRAINED FOR THIS!" and freeze, do I? Use some common sense, RJ. You're 38-39, you shouldn't have to have this kind of simple premise continually explained to you and still not get it.

It doesn't imply that, it doesn't IMPLY anything. The meaning of what I said is right there in the text; a boxer could win, it's not clear cut. Not "They're knife fighters who can deflect bats".

Yeah, you weren't expecting the backswing either were you? See where this is going? I didn't say they could stand there taking it, but it's avoidable, and you can grab a bat.[[quote] Nope, didn't see it coming, and it was a glancing blow, Imagine if I had suffered the full force of it.

[quote]The conditions that...apply to...the forum? You didn't give me it, it's the rules of the forum. I reminded you, you adhered to them. Not to me, to them.

Why the dented pride?

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If it makes you feel better, I'll try to use "Batman" from now on, happy?

Thank you.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And Batman would be totally invisible to Swagger, who is trained to track targets, AND has thermal goggles? You doubt any bullets would be fired? Yeah, right, Batman is THAT fast.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And you are assuming that Swagger will not plan for every probability, aerial stealth attack as well as ground attack, and be ready for either one. As I said, he is an expert at counter intel, so it is safe to say while he might not know about all of Batmans gadgets, he will be familiar with his fighting style.

He hasn't really shown in the movie to be of that caliber. He's good, but if people hadn't chosen to shoot a meter behind him instead of in his face he'd be dead.

W-why would he be familiar with his fighting style? Bruce Wayne knew multiple forms of Kung Fu (and who knows what else) BEFORE he was trained by the league of Shadows, and I doubt there is any known record of his style anywhere, why would he know? You are making Swagger out to be a sort of Batman (he certainly hasn't shown such capabilities in the movie) ...

Originally posted by jaden101
so basically you set up a scenario where you think one cant lose...and then you get all stroppy when anyone disagrees?

Its odd that people posting here think I know nothing of Batman, when, in fact it is they who know not near enough about Swagger to put two and two together.

Again I ask, who has Batman faced who has such an array of weaponry as Swagger has, and who has his training?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And where did I say a boxer would freeze? I never said that. All I said is that boxers are trained in pugilism, hand to hand fighting, not fighting with weapons.

Why? Why would you say that? I never said they were trained to fight with weapons, I never implied it, never thought it, neither of us were even discussing it. The whole premise was that the boxer was unarmed.

So why would you even bring that up? It was never part of the discussion, ever, at any point.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I never said the bat or knife wielder would win every time, I only implied that their chances of winning with these weapons are greatly increased.

No, you asked me who was going to win in a very matter-of-factly sense, and then when I successfully countered you, you spent (and are spending) an extraordinary amount of time tying yourself in knots. Just stop it, RJ. We've established that it's not out of the question for a boxer to win, so there it can be dropped, right? Good.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Whats it matter? You got what you wanted, I didn't feel like arguing with you anymore on it, decided to drop it. I have no dented pride, trust me, if anything, an elated sense of being, especially when I see you being so overly anal about misinterpretation of ones posts and thread conditions.

I'm not being "anal" about thread conditions. You expressed conditions that were glaringly incorrect, I corrected you. That's not anal.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nope. I know enough about both conmbatants to make an unbiased decision here, more than I can say for others

Like who? I've seen all the movies in question, so you obviously can't be speaking of me. Unless you are pissed that we saw the movie about a man who's just an elite sniper and don't feel that, based on this, he could be Batman.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Its odd that people posting here think I know nothing of Batman, when, in fact it is they who know not near enough about Swagger to put two and two together.

So you definitely know enough of Batman, and we definitely don't know enough of Swagger, because we disagree? Do you want to go for the gold medal in hypocritical olympics, or is the silver and bronze enough so far?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Again I ask, who has Batman faced who has such an array of weaponry as Swagger has, and who has his training?

When was the last time Swagger fought someone like Batman? Exactly. Never. Batman has shown he has everything capable of out doing Swagger, Swagger just shoots people who aren't trying to avoid him.

You were the one who said "Swagger would set up loads of claymores". Why? What suggestion do we have that he'd do that? In the movies, does he set up bombs in case his targets come after him? Well? Exactly. You're giving him more shit than he'd ever think to use.

-AC