Originally posted by Transfinitum
I doubt that I was tarring all homosexuals, just those who entered the priesthood covering up their habitual sin, only to have it return at the most inopportune of times. I also doubt this was a rare occurrence in that it has costed the Holy Church millions and millions of dollars to settle the cases. A great shame indeed.
It read like you were. Indeed, the rest of your post reads like that too- as for the rate of the occurrences, it is in line with the levels of child molestation found in Education, Hospitals and many other public bodies.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Discrimination? Au contrare! It is quite obvious what caused the sex scandals: the cardinal was told by PHD holding psychologists that these formerly homosexual priests would not act on those tendencies ever again. In reality, the problem is with the cardinal listening to psychologists instead of following traditional church practice of not ordaining people with any strong, recurring perverted tendency, including homosexuality.
The Cardinal, should be sacked.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
But it is a major factor in the two main sins of this age the Church must combat, abortion and homosexual marriage. In itself, no, homosexuality is just another grave sin. But with the alarming trend of our culture in the western world to promote homosexuality as a "lifestyle choice" rather than a sin, it leads to horribly unnatural civil occurrences, such as homosexual marriage and allowing that culture to seep into the Church has been alarming, and could prove disastrous.
You loose faith in the indefectible nature of our Holy Church?
Originally posted by Jack Daniels
I thought homosexual men were an abomination?....doesnt that qualify as a supersin...lol...
All sin is an abomination.
Originally posted by anaconda
well he made JI a scapegoat and the one to blame when JI didn't want to be intimate with J
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
It read like you were. Indeed, the rest of your post reads like that too- as for the rate of the occurrences, it is in line with the levels of child molestation found in Education, Hospitals and many other public bodies.
Even thusly, the Church has a higher responsibility in this matter, since it is the vehicle for salvation, and tarnishing the sacredness of the liturgy or sacraments with priests committing child molestation is far more dangerous than molestation in schools or hospitals, for it impacts the salvation of the general public. I know of many people who will not attend mass anymore because of this. Being Christ's one only church has ramifications that put it at a higher standard than civil institutions.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
The Cardinal, should be sacked.
Indeed, but I, nor anyone else who is outraged at this, has the ability or power to do so. Prayer is all that can be done for now...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
You loose faith in the indefectible nature of our Holy Church?
Not at all, my friend. But though the Church will never fall until the end of time, persecutions do come; ranging from the severeness of a martyr to the relative calmness of social and political injustice. By standing up against these perversions of our modern culture, most likely the Church will be persecuted, and right now, she is already weakened from the inside. The Church will never fall, but she does get pruned from time to time.
The good news:
She'll grow back stronger 😉.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Even thusly, the Church has a higher responsibility in this matter, since it is the vehicle for salvation, and tarnishing the sacredness of the liturgy or sacraments with priests committing child molestation is far more dangerous than molestation in schools or hospitals, for it impacts the salvation of the general public. I know of many people who will not attend mass anymore because of this. Being Christ's one only church has ramifications that put it at a higher standard than civil institutions.
I wasn't trying to dilute the importance of the issue- just to point out that its not as if its epidemic in Catholicism- as many people try and pretend it is.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Indeed, but I, nor anyone else who is outraged at this, has the ability or power to do so. Prayer is all that can be done for now...
We just have to have faith.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Not at all, my friend. But though the Church will never fall until the end of time, persecutions do come; ranging from the severeness of a martyr to the relative calmness of social and political injustice. By standing up against these perversions of our modern culture, most likely the Church will be persecuted, and right now, she is already weakened from the inside. The Church will never fall, but she does get pruned from time to time.
Oh we've been through much worse than this pedophilia scandal- in a few years I am confident- with the proper management of the situation, it will all be resolved.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
The good news:She'll grow back stronger 😉.
She always does
I have just carried out a little search to see how many cases of priest pedophilia there have been in the Scottish Church (It being a separate Church from that of England and Wales). Its not really a huge issue here though...occasionally a case will pop up in the newspapers but nothing ever seems to come of it...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I wasn't trying to dilute the importance of the issue- just to point out that its not as if its epidemic in Catholicism- as many people try and pretend it is.
Agreed. The Church is slowly recovering from that issue, but the main point is that it has weakened peoples trust in the faith, and it is up to those that kept it to bring them back into the fold.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
She always doesI have just carried out a little search to see how many cases of priest pedophilia there have been in the Scottish Church (It being a separate Church from that of England and Wales). Its not really a huge issue here though...occasionally a case will pop up in the newspapers but nothing ever seems to come of it...
Well i would assume it to be such, as the Irish clergy tends to be more restrained than in the United States. Personally, this was just another case of Church leaders listening to secular, instead of divine, council. Ever since Vatican II there has been a trend towards absorbing the Church into the secular culture, which they are attempting to do in the exact opposite way as the Church converted Rome: instead of holding fast to the traditional faith and letting the heathens see by example and come to it, they are diluting the faith to fit with the culture.
But as a consolation, we have a fantastic Pope who has the knowledge and initiative to strengthen the traditional meaning of the faith within the Church. God bless Benedict for Summorum Pontificum!
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Oh we've been through much worse than this pedophilia scandal- in a few years I am confident- with the proper management of the situation, it will all be resolved.
proper management? the sexual abuse of a child does not require management it requires 2 bricks slamming 2gether squishing nuts! (and I have a pair so I can imagine what that would feel like...but they wouldnt do it again!)
Being a dad that pisses me off the most...I wont go on but that just proves how f'ed up the church is...(not just catholic church I know)
Its all human politics....etc...proper mangement.. so very true your statement...how sad that is though
Originally posted by Transfinitum
But as a consolation, we have a fantastic Pope who has the knowledge and initiative to strengthen the traditional meaning of the faith within the Church. God bless Benedict for Summorum Pontificum!
Indeed, I can honestly say I love that man! The best Pope since VII in my opinion.
Ofcourse, we must still accept the validity of the Mass of Paul VI...even if we are glad for the return of the old Mass. 🙂
Yes Pope Benedict is brilliant in my opinion...
Originally posted by Jack Daniels
proper management? the sexual abuse of a child does not require management it requires 2 bricks slamming 2gether squishing nuts! (and I have a pair so I can imagine what that would feel like...but they wouldnt do it again!)
Being a dad that pisses me off the most...I wont go on but that just proves how f'ed up the church is...(not just catholic church I know)
Its all human politics....etc...proper mangement.. so very true your statement...how sad that is though
Your right, that was actually quite a horrific way for me to phrase it...I meant more in terms of how the Church handles cases from now on. In my view the solution is simple.
I would dismiss all Prelates (Pell and Law being obvious examples at the moment) who allowed pedophile priests continue working and did not report incidents to police
I would then have a policy of "One Strike your out"
Aqusation is made, priest is suspended from duty pending a police inquirey- once the police inquirey is complete, if they conclude that they will not charge the priest there should be an internal inquirey to see if he can still serve as a priest and if he should continue to serve in his parish. If a priest is charged and found not guilty that too would raise serious questions about his ability to serve in the parish, and it would be up to the local Bishop ofcourse.
I think that method would suffice.
I guess you could say that?.....lol...just noticed since your quote I put "with"craft...lol...glad you quoted...oops...obviously I meant witchcraft...witch wizards etc...being abominations listed there...homos Im guessing since gav made his statement its in leviticus...usually I dont question him...lol..usually 😗 ..lol
Originally posted by Jack Daniels
I guess you could say that?.....lol...just noticed since your quote I put "with"craft...lol...glad you quoted...oops...obviously I meant witchcraft...witch wizards etc...being abominations listed there...homos Im guessing since gav made his statement its in leviticus...usually I dont question him...lol..usually 😗 ..lol
It is in Leviticus,
Leviticus 20:13
Originally posted by Devil King
well then why don't you enlighten me to your point and I'll address the conversation from there....
And yet your profound explaination requires so few words...
Settlers aren't in question. Our differing perspectives of who founded this nation is apparently the point. And while we're at it, why don't you point out the document in which the founders of this nation espoused the absolute validiy of your biblical and religious certainty; as I asked? Once you've pointed out the document that claims christianity, or any other religion for that matter, as the founding principle of this nation's foundation, then we'll have something to debate. As it is, again, there is no mention of religion in the documents drafted by the supposedly fanatical founding fathers of this nation. Despite your claim that they were extreme and resolute bible thumpers, there seems to be no claim of that desire having ever been written into law or even voted on as a motion in those founding meetings. In fact, you'll only come across measures proposed and measures soundly denied when it comes to the recorded minutes of those meetings. Basically, they voted not to even consider religious debate. That doesn't say much for the notion that they were all cross wearing, god fearing orthodox that took every step with a measure of divine consideration.
Is that it? Not "all of them"? The muslim women you see wandering the CD aisle of Wal-Mart are not implicated in your blanket statment? Between the to of us, I find them pretty damned laughable. Think of it; they subscribe to a religion that keeps them in the bee suit but they're at Wal-Mart.
We all understand the magnitude of what you believe the "WORD OF GOD" to imply. It's just that some of us are not impressed by it. More over, many of us have not bought the 5 dollar admission price of the ticket to the staged freak show. By all means, you believe that there is a woman with a human head and a snake's body...and maybe even that it's the result of the theory of evolution, despite that not being hoe evolution works. Maybe it's the work of "the Devil!!!!" I simply see it as a chick who's learned to profit from you buying a ticket by craming her head through a hole in the floor.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
The point, my dear Watson, is that your beliefs are allegedly based upon reason alone. However, when pressed, one easily discovers that your beliefs are based upon whatever you feel is right (and thus aren't based upon reason at all). You might be able to support some of your beliefs with logical arguments, they will, overall, boil down to "because I said so."
Not reason alone, but reason and experience and independant assessment. Yes, I believe in what I think because I feel it's right and fair. And yet what I would consider the rights of yourself and others to be pretty much in step with what you believe they should be, I just don't need the religion to validate it to myself. And "because I said so" isn't all that different from "Because I believe so".
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Why would there be mention of religion in those documents? I've already showed you the Mayflower Compact; that document was the founding principle of the colonists. Furthermore, every one of the Pilgrims shared very similar beliefs--they came to America to practice Christianity in peace.
There wouldn't be mention of religion in those documents because religion was never meant to play a part in the government of the United State of America; which has been my point. Somehow I don't think the founders of this country had this in mind when they decided to set up their own government:
the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James
Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country
Sounds to me like they considered themselves subject of Britain and her King. I also don't remember any mention of these United States of America we're discussing.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Seems out-of-place, yes? But if she's not one of the barbarians, then she's not included.
Where is the line drawn between barbarian and easy going American muslim?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Ah, the ol' "CHRISTIANITY IS ABOUT PROFIT" schtick. Yawn. Nobody's profiting from my convictions.
While I do believe that a lot of the practice of the religion in this country is motivated by profit, that was not the point of my comment. Just because I mentioned money doesn't mean money was the focus of the observation. My objective was to point out that I think you're actually buying that there's a half-woman, half-snake in the little glass box when it's really just a toothless hick with her head through a hole in the floor, pulling the string every few seconds to make the tail move.