Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?
He's a realist everything bar the deluded parental rantings is pretty much nail on the head, this is in no way a dumb kids movie the social and political undertones are very clever. Especially in the interrogation scene and when he's visiting Dent.
Watching Heath's Joker weave his web is like a basic Nietzsche 101 lesson
Him and Bat's are essentially after the same thing just they're at the very polar opposite ends and means of achieving it.
that's my 0.02 anyway
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Obviously, he is also a masochist as seen by his taunts to Batman in the finale to the chase scene ("Come on! Hit me!"😉, and his laughter as he plummets after Batman pushes him from the tower.
I thought those were related to him trying to corrupt Batman into breaking his rule about not killing anyone. He knew Batman wouldn't run him over, but he kept taunting him by taking a few shots at the bike, hoping he'd 'win' by getting hit. Same as when he fell, Batman pushed him so technically he would have killed him, therefore breaking his rule and again the Joker 'wins'.
To Joker, it's all about the bigger picture. Things like getting run over, getting beaten up in the prison cell etc arent about masochism, its more about knowing that every punch he receives is pushing his 'incorruptible' enemies closer and closer to becoming like him, and he's willing to ignore pain/make the ultimate sacrifice to do so.
But then again, maybe he is a masochist and scarred himself for the pleasure srug
But there is no winning with the Joker as he said he's an engine/agent of chaos he doesn't live by rules of winning and losing as evident by the last fight with Batman 'we're destined to do this as you won't kill me etc... immovable force unstoppable object etc etc.' and the shear nihlism of not caring if Harvey Dent killed him or not in the hospital.
Your all looking on this as classic good vs evil approach but the fact is in the Joker's world there is no good vs evil it's classic Nietzsche beyond good and evil.
It's just action and reaction.
Originally posted by xNIXSONx
the joker is someone that we don't [and may never] fully understand
Theres nothing to understand. The Joker thrives off choas and suffering. Whats so difficult to understand? Of course im not like that but its not a hard concept to understand that some people are just messed up.
I agree do a degree. I almost don't really view him as a character so much as the personification of something less tangible: chaos, evil, fear, adversity in general...he's kind of a symbol(like batman) and the great thing about symbols is they are open for you to give your own meaning to them so people can see the joker as representing several different things.
if i were to view him as a character i wouldn't say he is complicated so much as he is enigmatic. i think there is one driving force behind him and there's nothing else to him. we just don't really understand what that is.
That begs the question...if he really is an agent of chaos...then how does he have a plan? (i.e. if we're going by the definition of the word: "chaos" which implies "no order"😉
He is a master mind criminial...no denying that...so we see conflict here with the Joker as an agent of chaos and at the same time someone that keeps his master plan in order...his plan was always to corrupt that which isn't corruptible.
(maybe I should move this to the philosophy forum) 😛
I saw him as a man who wanted to kill, burn the world, and open people's eyes...specifically Batman. My brother's wife's dad had a copy of the movie on bootleg and I watched the interrogation scene twice. The Joker really wanted Batman to see things for what they are but Batman is actually as blind as...well, a bat.
He's pretty much what he said during the movie - An agent of Chaos. He does everything he can to cause pain and disruption to the status quo. He's also obviously psychotic and I think deep down extremely angry.
You only hear him get really mad once in the film, during the first video he makes where he's torturing the fake batman. You hear him scream out in very intense rage "LOOK AT ME", and then almost back peddal and try and hide it, like a little bit of his true self came out for a second, and he wanted to keep it back, under control.
In short, he's a bad dude.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?
Yes. A lot of the terms all apply - insane, sociopath, anarchist, death lover, sadistic. What seems so dangerous about him at first is that he does what he does without seeming to want anything; no motivation. But by the time of the ferry scene, you realize there's one thing driving him and it's twisted: he wants everyone to join him and see the world as insane as he does. Like he says in the interrogation - "See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve." That's why he's Batman's opposite, who wants to inspire people to be better than they are.