Pre-Beyonder vs. Thanos (THOTU)

Originally posted by Board Walker
The fact is, that korvac stood up the LT, and the LT could do nothing, he left in defeat.

Thats the point.

And this is the only time that the LT has ever been shown to use an attack like this and to be that weak. All of his other showings represent him as the most powerful being in Marvel. Not to mention it was in a What If... issue. That sound like PIS to you?

Originally posted by Board Walker
The heart of the universe power give to Thanos, was stated by marvel, to have happened in a single universe, nothing more.

Thanos was shown in the End series that he absorbed everything that was, and is, and their was nothing left for him to absorb, he was at his limit, this is stated on panel, their was no where left for him to go.

Marvel stated, the company, in the comic summary, and in the LT's bio, that it was all one singular universe.

According to marvel from their official statement, its universal, nothing more.

Marvel > fan interpretation.

It was also stated on panel by Thanos and Eternity that the power Thanos possessed was that of the Almighty. Even after Thanos absorbed Eternity and Infinity (which comprise the universe), Thanos himself stated that he kept expanding to absorb more. If he absorbed everything in the universe, what else was left?

The writers/TOAA (non-fictional) > Manifestation of TOAA (fictional, as dipicted in Spider-man #40) = Heart (fictional) = Classic Beyonder (fictional)

Korvac never fought LT only in What IF, other than that it never happened what did happen LT sealed Korvac universe from the rest of the multiverse.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Its canon not pis. He was confirmed as supreme in the summary of the comic here.

[see original post by quanchi112 for image]

I've already addressed this "supreme power" argument so we're going in circles. So ok i'll say it again. Yes, Thanos was supreme power.. of a single universe. That's pretty apparent althroughout the series as evidenced by the use of the word "universe" repeatedly throughout the series plus as is self-evident in the designation for the power itself: "Heart of the UNIVERSE." I could quote all those instances, but seeing as how we read the same story i doubt it'd make you rethink your position.

Oh and Eternity isn't just the embodiment of the prime material plane ("the visible" 3d positive-matter universe) you know. In Warlock Chronicles #3 written by Starlin himself, Eternity/Infinity tells Adam Warlock:

"The machinations of your feminine self hold no interest to us Adam Warlock... blah blah blah.. our realm is forever, and we cannot be overly preoccupied by any one aspect of our reality. We are all.. blah blah.. Before you stands the embodiment of actuality. We may exist in myriad fashions and over the millenia have. so do not pester us with matters of little import, for unlike ourselves, our patience is not without limits!"

There's your omni-reality right there.

Eternity/Infinity uses the exact same words to describe itself as Thanos did in describing his HOTU-derived supremacy. E/I is a universal power.

Oh and canon and PIS aren't mutually exclusive imo. LT getting absorbed happened but it shouldn't have that's why it's PIS. That's the very nature of PIS. People shouldn't site them but they do. That feat doesn't hold up to the test of continuity. Heck, it doesn't even hold up to the test of continuity within its own story.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Here is also further proof that eternity acknowledges that Thanos was now omnipotent and that he surrender his supreme power. So the front of the comic agrees with me,as does Thanos,as does Starlin,as does Eternity.

[see original post by quanchi112 for images] [/B]

I don't disagree with those scans. I disagree with your interpretation of them. I've already stated why Thanos with HOTU isn't TOAA-level Omnipotent (as well as not being TOAA-level Omniscient). And yes he was supreme power, but only of this one singular universe.. so yeah Thanos, Starlin, and Eternity agrees with me too. I was pretty underwhelmed by Thanos' "omnipotence" and his "omniscience," i mean Eternity once told Dr. Strange (written by Roy Thomas):

"I demand silence in my universe not because i need the respect of mortals--but because i already know all they could possibly tell me."

I didn't quite get that same level of awe with respect to the HOTU-Thanos that i did with that Eternity.. so it'd be too much of a stretch to attribute TOAA-level supreme power to the HOTU. You say Thanos was an utterly Multiversal Supreme Power. But that doesn't quite hold up since he couldn't even easily fix the flaw in the 616 universe which is just one single universe. The reason he had to sweat to fix a universal flaw was because he only had universal power.

Originally posted by quanchi112
how could a universal being destroy Lt and the rest with ease if he were only universal? To me it makes no sense and destroys this whole theory imo.

It couldn't that's y it's PIS. I've already shown the Heart of the Universe only provided universal power. All the limitations of its supposed supremacy, omnipotence, and omniscience point to a power that is far, far, far from being a Multiversal Power. So the theory that it absorbed a full-powered LT makes no sense imo.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
And this is the only time that the LT has ever been shown to use an attack like this and to be that weak. All of his other showings represent him as the most powerful being in Marvel. Not to mention it was in a What If... issue. That sound like PIS to you?

It was also stated on panel by Thanos and Eternity that the power Thanos possessed was that of the Almighty. Even after Thanos absorbed Eternity and Infinity (which comprise the universe), Thanos himself stated that he kept expanding to absorb more. If he absorbed everything in the universe, what else was left?

He absorbed everything in that single universe, there was nothing left, it says this in the comic itself. Yeah he couldn't go any further, it also says that in the comic, he hit a dead end, a limitation, it was a single universe.

Yes he had supreme power, of a single universe, its stated by marvel, in the lt's bio, in the comic summary.

Regardless of how you spin it, it was a single universe.

Yeah he absorbed LT, an m-body, that or the LT is extremely weak.

Also it was shown in the comics, that every single what if, every single reality, is a universe, its all part of the omniverse, so yes what ifs count.

Originally posted by raynorfenix
It couldn't that's y it's PIS. I've already shown the Heart of the Universe only provided universal power. All the limitations of its supposed supremacy, omnipotence, and omniscience point to a power that is far, far, far from being a Multiversal Power. So the theory that it absorbed a full-powered LT makes no sense imo.

Unless you can prove that wasnt the real Lt then we must take it at face value friend.

Originally posted by raynorfenix
I've already addressed this "supreme power" argument so we're going in circles. So ok i'll say it again. Yes, Thanos was supreme power.. of a single universe. That's pretty apparent althroughout the series as evidenced by the use of the word "universe" repeatedly throughout the series plus as is self-evident in the designation for the power itself: "Heart of the UNIVERSE." I could quote all those instances, but seeing as how we read the same story i doubt it'd make you rethink your position.

Oh and Eternity isn't just the embodiment of the prime material plane ("the visible" 3d positive-matter universe) you know. In Warlock Chronicles #3 written by Starlin himself, Eternity/Infinity tells Adam Warlock:

"The machinations of your feminine self hold no interest to us Adam Warlock... blah blah blah.. our realm is forever, and we cannot be overly preoccupied by any one aspect of our reality. We are all.. blah blah.. Before you stands the embodiment of actuality. We may exist in myriad fashions and over the millenia have. so do not pester us with matters of little import, for unlike ourselves, our patience is not without limits!"

There's your omni-reality right there.

Eternity/Infinity uses the exact same words to describe itself as Thanos did in describing his HOTU-derived supremacy. E/I is a universal power.

Oh and canon and PIS aren't mutually exclusive imo. LT getting absorbed happened but it shouldn't have that's why it's PIS. That's the very nature of PIS. People shouldn't site them but they do. That feat doesn't hold up to the test of continuity. Heck, it doesn't even hold up to the test of continuity within its own story.

I don't disagree with those scans. I disagree with your interpretation of them. I've already stated why Thanos with HOTU isn't TOAA-level Omnipotent (as well as not being TOAA-level Omniscient). And yes he was supreme power, but only of this one singular universe.. so yeah Thanos, Starlin, and Eternity agrees with me too. I was pretty underwhelmed by Thanos' "omnipotence" and his "omniscience," i mean Eternity once told Dr. Strange (written by Roy Thomas):

"I demand silence in my universe not because i need the respect of mortals--but because i already know all they could possibly tell me."

I didn't quite get that same level of awe with respect to the HOTU-Thanos that i did with that Eternity.. so it'd be too much of a stretch to attribute TOAA-level supreme power to the HOTU. You say Thanos was an utterly Multiversal Supreme Power. But that doesn't quite hold up since he couldn't even easily fix the flaw in the 616 universe which is just one single universe. The reason he had to sweat to fix a universal flaw was because he only had universal power.

My interpretation is dead on imo. You keep blabbing about him at best being only universal when on panel we see him destroying the multiversal judge quite easily. So while Thanos only had to fix a universal flaw that doesnt mean he wasnt multiversal in scope of power because as I said he dominated the Lt on panel.

😄

Originally posted by Board Walker
He absorbed everything in that single universe, there was nothing left, it says this in the comic itself. Yeah he couldn't go any further, it also says that in the comic, he hit a dead end, a limitation, it was a single universe.

Yes he had supreme power, of a single universe, its stated by marvel, in the lt's bio, in the comic summary.

Regardless of how you spin it, it was a single universe.

Yeah he absorbed LT, an m-body, that or the LT is extremely weak.

Also it was shown in the comics, that every single what if, every single reality, is a universe, its all part of the omniverse, so yes what ifs count.

By absorbing Eternity and Infinity, he absorbed the universe, because they make up the universe. AFTER he absorbs them, he states there might be others out there to challenge his authority, so he continues to absorb more. What else could there be in the universe if he already absorbed it completely?

I know that the What If comics count, but there is such a thing as PIS. If one showing is inconsistent with all the other showings of a character, then the one showing is PIS. All of the LT's other showings have demonstrated far greater power than the Korvac incident. Therefore this one incident can be called PIS. Simple.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again to defeat the Lt requires that you be a mulitversal threat at the very least imo. Until proven otherwise we have Thanos easily defeating the judge of the known multiverse and he did it with ease.

Had LT not been shown to have been absorbed by Thanos, i don't think you would believe the HOTU to have been a Multiversal power. I have shown that for the duration of the story up until that point, Thanos was shown to only have universal power. The LT-absorbing feat is inconsistent within the story itself (and continuity at large) which is why i call it PIS, but then it seems to be a huge reason why you consider the HOTU to be Multiversal. Everything points to the HOTU being universal except for this one sore-thumb feat. Thanos struggles in vain to fix a universal flaw, shows fallibility even on a universal level, and shows a lack of omniscience, then next thing you know he casually absorbs an utterly Multiversal being? if that's not PIS then I don't know what is.

Originally posted by quanchi112
My interpretation is dead on imo. You keep blabbing about him at best being only universal when on panel we see him destroying the multiversal judge quite easily. So while Thanos only had to fix a universal flaw that doesnt mean he wasnt multiversal in scope of power because as I said he dominated the Lt on panel.
😄

I don't believe ur interpretation is dead on.. it's flawed imo. Again that feat seems to be a humongous reason why you consider HOTU to be Multiversal. If not for that i doubt you would say the HOTU was Multiversal, beacause everything else points to the universal scope of the HOTU. If the HOTU-empowered Thanos struggles so hard with the affairs of one solitary universe then what hope has he of ruling an entire Multiverse full of an infinite number of universes each of which is just as massive as that single one? The answer is he can't, which is why he could not possibly have been Multiversal, which is why that feat was PIS

If you ask me, the Beyonder's weakness was his knowledge, he wasn't really omniscient and could be tricked and outsmarted. A sufficiently intelligent human with no other powers could probably talk him into killing himself.

Originally posted by raynorfenix
Had LT not been shown to have been absorbed by Thanos, i don't think you would believe the HOTU to have been a Multiversal power. I have shown that for the duration of the story up until that point, Thanos was shown to only have universal power. The LT-absorbing feat is inconsistent within the story itself (and continuity at large) which is why i call it PIS, but then it seems to be a huge reason why you consider the HOTU to be Multiversal. Everything points to the HOTU being universal except for this one sore-thumb feat. Thanos struggles in vain to fix a universal flaw, shows fallibility even on a universal level, and shows a lack of omniscience, then next thing you know he casually absorbs an utterly Multiversal being? if that's not PIS then I don't know what is.

I don't believe ur interpretation is dead on.. it's flawed imo. Again that feat seems to be a humongous reason why you consider HOTU to be Multiversal. If not for that i doubt you would say the HOTU was Multiversal, beacause everything else points to the universal scope of the HOTU. If the HOTU-empowered Thanos struggles so hard with the affairs of one solitary universe then what hope has he of ruling an entire Multiverse full of an infinite number of universes each of which is just as massive as that single one? The answer is he can't, which is why he could not possibly have been Multiversal, which is why that feat was PIS

With my theory you dont have to disregard any of the story. Imo posters who claim something doesnt add up usually themselves personally dont like it.

Prove it was an Lt m-body or else concede?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again Thanos only affected the universe itself but demonstrated multiversal destroying powers when he easily absorbed Lt.

With my theory you dont have to disregard any of the story. Imo posters who claim something doesnt add up usually themselves personally dont like it.

Prove it was an Lt m-body or else concede?

On the contrary, with my theory i take 99.99999999% of the story at face value and disregard (i prefer the word "rationalize" but that's just sematics at this point) ONE panel that doesn't quite fit. Your theory requires disregarding the rest of the story and exalt that ONE single solitary panel above all others.

I believe the story itself proves that the LT was absorbed was far from being the utterly Multiversal Power that the LT has been established to be. So no concession here.

Originally posted by raynorfenix
On the contrary, with my theory i take 99.99999999% of the story at face value and disregard (i prefer the word "rationalize" but that's just sematics at this point) ONE panel that doesn't quite fit. Your theory requires disregarding the rest of the story and exalt that ONE single solitary panel above all others.

I believe the story itself proves that the LT was absorbed was far from being the utterly Multiversal Power that the LT has been established to be. So no concession here.

Again just because Thanos only fixed the universal flaw it doesnt mean he couldnt affect and defeat multiversal powers. I mean he did it on panel. There is no rationalizing here they told us what happened.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Thread already made...by me. And mine has a poll yay.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=460217

J/K 😛

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