Originally posted by darthgoober
You didn't answer the question, stop trying to change the subject. Your claim is that there's nothing that contradicts his low speed/reflex showing during the armbar incident so I'm asking you...Yes or no?
My claim is that there isnt a combat,h2h feat or display of SS MA that contradicts someone like BP getting the lock on him...dodging lasers isnt the same as applying a armbar or even knowing how to reverse it friend 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armlock Keep in mind dodging lasers does make u more proficent in MA.
Originally posted by The Great Galen
My claim is that there isnt a combat,h2h feat or display of SS MA that contradicts someone like BP getting the lock on him...dodging lasers isnt the same as applying a armbar or even knowing how to reverse it friend 🙂
Originally posted by The Great GalenWow you think meta human would have the power to arm lock someone like SS who is hulk level strength wise 😉
My claim is that there isnt a combat,h2h feat or display of SS MA that contradicts someone like BP getting the lock on him...dodging lasers isnt the same as applying a armbar or even knowing how to reverse it friend 🙂
Originally posted by Badabing
Galan, I'm not sure what the trouble is but bringing up that armbar feat in almost every one of your posts isn't helping. This isn't the first time I've addressed you low balling characters using that "feat". Please stop and debate the topic. Thanks.
You know Bads, Iv'e never claimed BP>SS and in fact I even stated the feat was PIS due to the actual"hold"which obviously isnt possible due to the difference in strength. What I don't to believe to be "PIS"was BP applying the hold to SS, maintaing it is a different story. Iv'e requested scans displaying SS's MA ability or h2h speed to indicate he is comparable to a elite MA like BP...and so far im still waiting.
Originally posted by The Great Galen
You know Bads, Iv'e never claimed BP>SS and in fact I even stated the feat was PIS due to the actual"hold"which obviously isnt possible due to the difference in strength. What I don't to believe to be "PIS"was BP applying the hold to SS, maintaing it is a different story. Iv'e requested scans displaying SS's MA ability or h2h speed to indicate he is comparable to a elite MA like BP...and so far im still waiting.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Is his combat speed faster than that of an energy beam or not? Stop dodging the question...
Originally posted by The Great Galen
...still waiting for the display of MA skill.
Still waiting for u to realize the obvious: U cant apply a move like that to a person millions of times stronger than u. The slightest bit of physical resistance from SS would make BP incapable of applying the move regardless of his MA skill. But u can carry on using the feat and showing that u r totally inept at debating.
Originally posted by The Great GalenEverything you just said was shown twenty times over to you before.
You know Bads, Iv'e never claimed BP>SS and in fact I even stated the feat was PIS due to the actual"hold"which obviously isnt possible due to the difference in strength. What I don't to believe to be "PIS"was BP applying the hold to SS, maintaing it is a different story. Iv'e requested scans displaying SS's MA ability or h2h speed to indicate he is comparable to a elite MA like BP...and so far im still waiting.
I specifically remember you getting torn apart in this debate the first time you brought it up.
And besides, the whole story was poorly written... how can we just take one feat out of it, and make it acceptable?
Originally posted by ultimatethor
Still waiting for u to realize the obvious: U cant apply a move like that to a person millions of times stronger than u. The slightest bit of physical resistance from SS would make BP incapable of applying the move regardless of his MA skill. But u can carry on using the feat and showing that u r totally inept at debating.
You can't FLY either, but we accept that as possible.
It's the slippery slope when you decide what and what is not acceptable.
You say Black Panther's performance against the Silver Surfer is too ridiculous to take into account, even though we've seen him get knocked out by Bricks, sledge hammers, a few meteors, get hurt by wooden clubs, get knocked out by the Thing and countless other showings.
What if I decided that Darkseid beating Superman was not plausible, and therefore not in continuity? Is that acceptable?
Rather than trying to say 'well, that doesn't count' isn't it more inclusive and accurate to say 'okay, it happened, it was in continuity, but it was one showing and is easily offset by his defeat of Midnight Sun, a being more powerful and with greater martial arts ability'?
Originally posted by Red Hulk
I always forget about him when Surfer's h2h skills are brought up.At least someone's on the ball.
It is hardly a good example of Surfer's martial arts ability given the nature of the battle (Surfer was NOT getting physical blows in), but it IS a good indication of how he might fare against a martial artist.
That said, there is a large precedent for unimpressive (physically) martial artists having effects on top tier opponents, whether it's Karate Kid vs Daxamites and Krytponians or Mantis vs Thor or Hulk or Gamora vs Thanos.
Originally posted by DesaadI recall him dodging a couple shots in one of the fights, and even landing a few. It's not much, but it does show 'something' as opposed to 'nothing'. It's been a while, so I may have to go look at the fights again.
It is hardly a good example of Surfer's martial arts ability given the nature of the battle (Surfer was NOT getting physical blows in), but it IS a good indication of how he might fare against a martial artist.That said, there is a large precedent for unimpressive (physically) martial artists having effects on top tier opponents, whether it's Karate Kid vs Daxamites and Krytponians or Mantis vs Thor or Hulk or Gamora vs Thanos.
Wouldn't that play on the fantastic abilities of comic characters? They're so good at their craft, that they can challenge absurd characters through sheer 'skill'.
BP isn't really one of those unfortunately unless we count Mcduffie (who later admitted ignorance).
Originally posted by Red Hulk
I recall him dodging a couple shots in one of the fights, and even landing a few. It's not much, but it does show 'something' as opposed to 'nothing'. It's been a while, so I may have to go look at the fights again.Wouldn't that play on the fantastic abilities of comic characters? They're so good at their craft, that they can challenge absurd characters through sheer 'skill'.
BP isn't really one of those unfortunately unless we count Mcduffie (who later admitted ignorance).
Black Panther IS one of those, though, a Captain America overall combatant with considerably better tech.
It doesn't seem out of the realm to me that he might be capable of doing something like that (okay, it's a very bad showing for Surfer, but given the things we HAVE seen him affected by, it's not out of the realm).
Originally posted by Red Hulk
I recall him dodging a couple shots in one of the fights, and even landing a few. It's not much, but it does show 'something' as opposed to 'nothing'. It's been a while, so I may have to go look at the fights again.Wouldn't that play on the fantastic abilities of comic characters? They're so good at their craft, that they can challenge absurd characters through sheer 'skill'.
BP isn't really one of those unfortunately unless we count Mcduffie (who later admitted ignorance).
Also, if you're looking at examples of the Surfer taking on and defeating anyone remotely skilled at fighting...well, there was a lot of talk around Champion's skills (though they were never actually demonstrated) and Surfer beat him.
I'm not. I know what Surfer has done, I was just pointing out how I always forget the Midnight Sun fights. And in the second fight, Surfer KO's him with his fists, and he did OK for the most part in one (as far as speed's concerned), and I'll get back to you on three.
Originally posted by DesaadI'm talking about the ones even worse than the Captain America level guys. Who's skills make Cap's seem like shit (at least when we look at what the do).
Black Panther IS one of those, though, a Captain America overall combatant with considerably better tech.It doesn't seem out of the realm to me that he might be capable of doing something like that (okay, it's a very bad showing for Surfer, but given the things we HAVE seen him affected by, it's not out of the realm).
It doesn't seem out the realm based on a couple low showings? Huh?
Originally posted by Desaad
You can't FLY either, but we accept that as possible.It's the slippery slope when you decide what and what is not acceptable.
You say Black Panther's performance against the Silver Surfer is too ridiculous to take into account, even though we've seen him get knocked out by Bricks, sledge hammers, a few meteors, get hurt by wooden clubs, get knocked out by the Thing and countless other showings.
What if I decided that Darkseid beating Superman was not plausible, and therefore not in continuity? Is that acceptable?
Rather than trying to say 'well, that doesn't count' isn't it more inclusive and accurate to say 'okay, it happened, it was in continuity, but it was one showing and is easily offset by his defeat of Midnight Sun, a being more powerful and with greater martial arts ability'?
Really ur flight example is in NO WAY analogous to this situation. What im talking about is the validity of a feat in which surfer somehow "magically" lost all of his superstrength enabling a character MUCH MUH MUCH weaker than him to place him in a hold. This is PIS because one of the already established abilities of the silver surfer: his class hundred strength somehow becomes non existent. Me not being able to fly is a an extremely weak analogy which is not even concerned with the same issues. If in a comic i have been consistently portrayed as being able to fly and then at some other point, my ability dissappears without any reasonable explanation then yes it CAN be classified as a PIS incident and therefore unusable.
Further, Not only are the low feats u are mentioning few and far between( far outnumbered by his feats of high level durability so saying his countless low feats is just ridiculous) but u are also forgetting the context in which they happened.
Firstly, Surfer has faced off multiple times against Marvels finest bricks like Hulk,Thor, Wonderman She hulk,thing etc and has a very good record against them. Hardly has he ever been knocked out even going as far as taking blows from an angry savage hulk and She hulk unscathed. This is a testament to his durability. The period where surfer had most of his low showings was when he was highly depowered on earth and nowhere near as powerful as he is now. BTW he was completely unhurt by things attack so i have no idea where u got the belief that he was knocked out.
Once again ur superman Darkseid instance is just another example of taking feats without analysing them and considering the detaiils and the context in which they happened. No one is claiming that the fights were not in continuity so i dont know where u got that, the point is that fights in which characters have part of their abilities simply vanish in order to advance plots are PIS instances and therefore invalid as evidence for debates. The recent display of red hulk being able to beat up thor with his own hammer is an example of this. What u are doing would be equivalent to taking that feat and saying well thor lost to red hulk without first considering the details of the fight and the context in which it happened. Did thor use his other powers which he has shown to be capable of in fights?Why did thor not simply let go of his hammer?....etc. If superman defeats Darkseid in a fight while he is amped or Darkseid does not fight as well as he has shown he can just to advance the plot of the story, you dont in turn hear claims that superman can defeat Darkseid in a forum fight based on those feats. Because they were plot driven and the circumstances surrounding those fights will NOT be present on the forum.
What u need to understand is that because and incident is "in continuity" does not make it valid as evidence in a forum debate. Spiderman defeating Firelord is in continuity but it certainly wont be used as evidence for spiderman being able to defeat hulk. This is because we first look at the context and circumstances surrounding the fight as whole and then consider whether the instances in that fight are in line with the characters on panel history or if the character was knowingly handicapped in any way to advance the plot.
Therefore in regards to the blackpanther feat, regardless of surfers performance against midnight son, we would have to look at the context and details of the fight and not just take it without proper analysis. Surfers fight against midnight sun frankly however can be used to measure the level of his MA skill but NOT how he would fare in a normal fight against a martial artist in a forum fight because you would have to take into consideration the options surfer has shown he can use and whther he made use of them in the comic.