Sentry vs Alpha Flight

Originally posted by -K-M-
Really putting a hurtin on Galactus? How? because until Guardian did that attack he really wasn;t showing really any serious damage or did they even come close to what Guardian did to him what's so ever. To say their attacks were a huge thing for Guardian doing what he was doing is wrong. They even stopped fighting, and that's when Guardian did his blast. Yeah I know he was weakened, like I said several times.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-17.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-19.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-25.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-26.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-28.jpg

And they only paused in the fighting because Galactus held Vindicator hostage. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were suggesting that they stopped fighting and Galactus had time to completely recover from their assault and Vindicator single-handedly put him down. He only got the final blow. And I know you acknowledge that Galactus was weak. But do me a favor and re-acknowledge that Galactus wasn't just weak, his powers didn't work:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-13.jpg

EDIT: Here I've been looking at your respect thread for the Galactus scans above and I didn't even think to look for the Juggs fights. Alright, give me a few to look em over again. Brb.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah. Really putting a hurtin on Galactus, even Quasar states it was a group effort in the last scan:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-17.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-19.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-25.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-26.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-28.jpg

And they only paused in the fighting because Galactus held Vindicator hostage. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were suggesting that they stopped fighting and Galactus had time to recover. And I know you acknowledge that Galactus was weak. But do me a favor and re-acknowledge that Galactus wasn't just weak, his powers didn't work:

Ok? and like I said when did they even remotely do any serious damage with what the likes of Guardian did. Even Quasar mentioned it was Guardian's energy that messed with Galactus energy. You sort of left that scan out and it's a very very key scan.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-27.jpg

In a sense yes he could recover as now he could think and he wasn't kept off-balance which was point of their whole corelated attack so he coudn't figure out what was wrong with his powers. Yeah they wern't, I even mentioned that as well. Like I said the feat was Guardian did what the other heralds couldn't do

1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-25.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-26.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I believe you when you say Box wasn't there. But I totally disagree with your interpretation of the fights. I'm gonna take a look myself and give you my interpretation with the scans later today. Because I don't believe that depowered Juggernaut was the worse for wear in the first fight. And I don't believe that ordering Walter to stop the first time was any indication that depowered Juggernaut was getting definitively beaten. They ordered him to stop because Walter was getting too personal, not because he was killing depowered Juggs without his armor.

This is Juggernaut's face at the end of the fight, it was mangled

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p36.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p38.jpg

He was getting beaten, and yeah they said to stop as it was getting personal. Sasquatch clearly showed he had the advantage during their first encounter in that fight.

Juggs laid there and let Sasquatch pound on him. 😬

Originally posted by Mindset
Juggs laid there and let Sasquatch pound on him. 😬

That was much later. Guardian and Vindciator told Walter to stop fighting TWICE, where the second time was with Sammy and Jugz wasn't fighting back

Jebus Christ. I won't even argue about this anymore. The fights were even worse than I had initially remembered. Juggs may have had nasty bruises on his face in the first fight, but he was also actually fighting other members of Alpha Flight whereas Sasquatch who was knocked out for part of the fight was only attacking Juggs.

And as for the second fight. Juggs completely destroyed Guardian, Vindicator and Sasquatch all by himself. Yeah, they told Walter to stop three times. 1) At the beginning; 2) right after Walter bumrushed him; and 3) right after Juggs already gave up. Nothing in the fight suggests that depowered, dearmored Juggs was anywhere beaten to the point of submission. AFTER that "crucial point" where you argue that Walter had him completely on the ropes and Guardian told him to stop, Juggs is standing relatively unscathed and mocking them all! Here:

I'm not arguing this anymore. You won't be convinced. Here are the two fights, courtesy of K-M himself and other people can make their judgments. Personally, I can't see how you could think what you think. The only things we agree on was Alpha Flight got stomped on and jobbed twice:

Originally posted by -K-M-
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Uncanny X-MEN #422: Uncanny X-MEN

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p18.jpg
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6. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p24.jpg
7. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p25.jpg
8. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p26.jpg
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13. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p31.jpg
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18. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p36.jpg
19. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p38.jpg

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Uncanny X-Men #432-434: Juggernaut

1. url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/UXM-22-23.jpg[/url]
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p05-06.jpg
3. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p07.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p08.jpg
5. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p14.jpg
6. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p15b.jpg
7. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p16b.jpg
8. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_04.jpg
9. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_05.jpg
10. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_06.jpg
11. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_07.jpg
12. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_08.jpg
13. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_09.jpg

But those alien creatures did state that not only was Galactus weak, but that his powers did not work...... hmmmm..... it also shows that when he attemted to transmute them to energy that his powers fizzled out. It is in my honest opinion that using Galactus as a means to guage Alpha Flights power should be stricken, and no longer used as a basis to prove how potent a force that they are. In his normal universe Alpha Flight would have no chance against Galactus.... Heather Hudson shows this by her suprise at being able to affect Galan at all.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jebus Christ. I won't even argue about this anymore. The fights were even worse than I had initially remembered. Juggs may have had nasty bruises on his face in the first fight, but he was also actually fighting other members of Alpha Flight whereas Sasquatch who was knocked out for part of the fight was only attacking Juggs.

And as for the second fight. Juggs completely destroyed Guardian, Vindicator and Sasquatch all by himself. Yeah, they told Walter to stop three times. At the beginning, right after Walter bumrushed him and right after Juggs gave up. Nothing in the fight suggests that dewpowered, dearmored Juggs was anywhere beaten to the point of submission. AFTER that curcial point where you argue that Walter had him completely on the ropes, Juggs is standing relatively unscathed and mocking them all! Here:

I'm not arguing this anymore. You won't be convinced. Here are the two fights, courtesy of K-M himself and other people can make their judgments. Personally, I can't see how you could think what you think. The only things we agree on was Alpha Flight got stomped on and jobbed twice:

Knocked out? When was he ever knocked out?

So like I said did you see them use energy attacks? No, did you see even Guardian activate his shield? No. Did you see Guardian go completly out of character and actually try to go hand to hand with Jugz? Yes, and it was stupid as he even made him bleed. I never said he was close to submission ever, but he had him laid out on the ground and then Vindicator/Guardian told him to stop which happened. Jugz hit Vindicator once, and then Mac did his punch attack. and for "completly destroyed them"? *snicker* We even see them right after none the worse for wear

Except that was a different artist as before Jugz is hurt and it's showed, like how in that scan Jugz has his shirt on, but before it was completly destroyed

Ok? It's not like I'm the only one who has said the same things I have been saying.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
But those alien creatures did state that not only was Galactus weak, but that his powers did not work...... hmmmm..... it also shows that when he attemted to transmute them to energy that his powers fizzled out. It is in my honest opinion that using Galactus as a means to guage Alpha Flights power should be stricken, and no longer used as a basis to prove how potent a force that they are. In his normal universe Alpha Flight would have no chance against Galactus.... Heather Hudson shows this by her suprise at being able to affect Galan at all.

Have you not been reading what we have been saying? Seriously? 😬

The feat isn't just beating a weakened Galactus (we have even mention he was weakened multiple times), but the feat is other herald level characters couldn't do what Guardian did in one shot (Quasar mentions it was Guardian's attack that put him down). Even afterwards Galactus asked Guardian to power his tech as he said he was the only one who could find the right frequency and power it. That's an impressive feat, could Guardian take on a full power Galactus or even close to that level? Hell no.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Knocked out? When was he ever knocked out?

So like I said did you see them use energy attacks? No, did you see even Guardian activate his shield? No. Did you see Guardian go completly out of character and actually try to go hand to hand with Jugz? Yes, and it was stupid as he even made him bleed. I never said he was close to submission ever, but he had him laid out on the ground and then Vindicator/Guardian told him to stop which happened. Jugz hit Vindicator once, and then Mac did his punch attack. and for "completly destroyed them"? *snicker* We even see them right after none the worse for wear

Except that was a different artist as before Jugz is hurt and it's showed, like how in that scan Jugz has his shirt on, but before it was completly destroyed

Ok? It's not like I'm the only one who has said the same things I have been saying.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p22-23.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p24.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p25.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p26.jpg

Five pages of Juggs fighting other people before he actually comes back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p31.jpg

Different art means nothing. It's the same writer that wrote Juggs getting bumrushed by Walter in the first part and wrote Juggs standing there mocking them all in the second part. A depowered, dearmored Juggs stomped on an enhanced Alpha Flight in the second battle. It was embarassing and it was jobbing. But don't expect me to give Alpha Flight any kind of props for knocking Juggs to the ground once or "going easy on him." It was an ugly showing for Alpha Flight, plain and simple.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Have you not been reading what we have been saying? Seriously? 😬

The feat isn't just beating a weakened Galactus (we have even mention he was weakened multiple times), but the feat is other herald level characters couldn't do what Guardian did in one shot (Quasar mentions it was Guardian's attack that put him down). Even afterwards Galactus asked Guardian to power his tech as he said he was the only one who could find the right frequency and power it. That's an impressive feat, could Guardian take on a full power Galactus or even close to that level? Hell no.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Juggs obviously has the power to lay him out because they both laid each other out with their opening shots and form a crater. And while Sas is pleading for him to stop, Juggs whacks him again and we don't even see him again for another five pages:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p22-23.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p24.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p25.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p26.jpg

Five pages of Juggs fighting other people before he actually comes back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p31.jpg

Different art means nothing. It's the same writer that wrote Juggs getting bumrushed by Walter in the first part and wrote Juggs standing there mocking them in the second part. A depowered, dearmored Juggs stomped on an enhanced Alpha Flight in the second battle. It was embarassing and it was jobbing. But don't expect me to give Alpha Flight any kind of props for knocking Juggs to the ground once or "going easy on him." It was an ugly showing for Alpha Flight, plain and simple.

Dude. Her (Kismet), is hardly a herald level character. She's low herald at best. Quasar is also a low herald character. He may have the items and powerset to be better, but he really isn't. Either way, meaningless "herald" labelling does nothing to enhance the prestige for which Guardian should garner for basically landing a final shot on a weakened and depowered Galactus who had been assaulted and hurt by Alpha Flight and the Avengers.

Except the way the page is we see Sasquatch laying the big blow knocking off Jugz helmet off, and there was only one sound text. Walter tells him to wait up and then Jugs pops him, which now Walter knows it's bussiness and they go shot for shot right after. Also another example of how badly written the first fight was, Guardain doesn't need the suit to give him powers anymore. He generates the power himself as he is a cyborg, the external costume is just for looks as he generates the true power. So northstar leaving his powerless by removing the suit, which apparently Guardian told him how to do before...errr why? Page length does not equal a long time, as you do know the 2nd fight was literally less a minute right as noted by Northstar and that was far more then 5 pages.

Except the artist showed damage to Juggernaut, while the other didn't. I'm sorry how does that mean nothing? And stomped? If your talking about hitting Vindicator once, and Guardian once...yeah sure. Then ignore the fact we see them right after and their completly fine. I never said they were going easy on him, but did it show their abilities and what they can do? No, it was a poorly written story it was even the Draco ark which is considered to be one of the worst X-Men arks ever.

You just contradicted yourself, you say she isn't herald level character then say she is a low herald? Also Quasar is most definetly more then a low herald, and I wasn't remarking they were high heralds like Silver Surfer, etc. just herald class which they are. Except those assaults were really doing nothing of note worthy until Guardian laid out his attack which Quasar remarked was his doing that brought Galactus down.

Nice scans, Judging from the fight between Sasquatch and Cain, I would call that battle as close to a stalemate as it gets.

Let's talk power levels now. King Hulk destroyed that same depowered Juggernaut in 2 panels, but went all out to barely defeat the Sentry.

Systematically Sasquatch should be ruled as a non factor in a battle with The Sentry.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Have you not been reading what we have been saying? Seriously? 😬

The feat isn't just beating a weakened Galactus (we have even mention he was weakened multiple times), but the feat is other herald level characters couldn't do what Guardian did in one shot (Quasar mentions it was Guardian's attack that put him down). Even afterwards Galactus asked Guardian to power his tech as he said he was the only one who could find the right frequency and power it. That's an impressive feat, could Guardian take on a full power Galactus or even close to that level? Hell no.

Yes I have been reading what has been written, and from what I read Galactus would have been defeated without Guardians help, he just hastened the process. You seem to be the one that may be reading something that is not there.

Galactus could not use his powers, even a weakened Galactus that could use his power, in his home dimension or universe would have been able to defeat that entire team, all he had to do was transmute them into energy. Therefore even a weak Galactus could beat Guardian without trying.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Nice scans, Judging from the fight between Sasquatch and Cain, I would call that battle as close to a stalemate as it gets.

Let's talk power levels now. King Hulk destroyed that same depowered Juggernaut in 2 panels, but went all out to barely defeat the Sentry.

Systematically Sasquatch should be ruled as a non factor in a battle with The Sentry.

Yeah it was

IF Sasquatch fought King Hulk he (Walter) would have been destroyed

Did you miss the part where I said Sasquatch WASN'T the key figure to defeat Sentry? However, if he does lose control to Tanaraq Sentry is screwed.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic

Yes I have been reading what has been written, and from what I read Galactus would have been defeated without Guardians help, he just hastened the process. You seem to be the one that may be reading something that is not there.

Galactus could not use his powers, even a weakened Galactus that could use his power, in his home dimension or universe would have been able to defeat that entire team, all he had to do was transmute them into energy. Therefore even a weak Galactus could beat Guardian without trying.

Except that wasn't shown or stated as their attacks really wern't do ANYTHING until Guardian affected his internal energy.

I dont think you have been reading the posts as this was all addressed many times. A weakened Galactus who DOES have access to his powers would destroy Guardian. However, the feat is the others couldn't do what Guardian did in one attack.

^ You want to continue giving Guardian sole credit for laying out a weakened Galactus whose powers didn't work and was assaulted by Alpha Flight and the Avengers and hurting him? That's your cup of tea. Fact is, like I said, I'm done arguing these issues. You're not convinced, that's fine. Your theories don't convince me either. But Sasquatch turning to Tanaraq has as much weight in this debate as Sentry reverting into the Void, which is no weight at all.

To anybody else, Guardian's "defeat" of Galactus is overblown. Alpha Flight jobbed to a depowered Juggernaut + X-Men and then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggs when they were enhanced. It's not surprising that Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective, the sum total of millions of mutant signatures. Sentry was handling the Collective evenly. Sentry also drained the power of World War Hulk, who had previously and utterly curbstomped a depowered Juggernaut. You guys do the math.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You want to continue giving Vindicator sole credit for laying out a weakened Galactus whose powers didn't work and was assualted by Alpha Flight and the Avengers and hurting him. That's your cup of tea. Fact is, like I said, I'm done arguing these issues. You're not convinced, that's fine. Your theories don't convince me either.

To anybody else, Guardian's "defeat" of Galactus is overblown. Alpha Flight jobbed to a depowered Juggernaut + X-Men and then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggs when they were enhanced. It's not surprising that Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective, the sum total of millions of mutant signatures. Sentry was handling the Collective evenly. Sentry drained the power of World War Hulk, who in turn completely curbstomped a depowered Juggernaut. You guys do the math.

Sweet, I like how you really didn't counter my points.

Sweet, let's also ignore how they do defeat Elder Gods and cosmic beings rountinely and ignore the context of when they jobbed. *shrugs* Also Sentry was handling the Collective evenly? Seriously how do you figure? As I mentioned earlier even Iron Man was rocking the Collective multiple times in space.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Sweet, I like how you really didn't counter my points.

Sweet, let's also ignore how they do defeat Elder Gods and cosmic beings rountinely and ignore the context of when they jobbed. *shrugs* Also Sentry was handling the Collective evenly? Seriously how do you figure? As I mentioned earlier even Iron Man was rocking the Collective multiple times in space.

Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective. Sentry did not.

Alpha Flight jobbed to the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. An enhanced Alpha Flight then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggernaut. World War Hulk raped both the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. Sentry fought World War Hulk to a standstill and barely lost.

Do the math.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Dude. It's all there in the scans. I have addressed every single one of your points. I don't care to convince you of dropping your recalcitrant fanboyish interpretations. And your specious bravado does nothing to change the facts or the arguments. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither of us are changing them. Other people can decide for themselves.

Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective. Sentry did not.

Alpha Flight jobbed to the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. An enhanced Alpha Flight then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggernaut. World War Hulk raped both the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. Sentry fought World War Hulk to a standstill and barely lost.

Do the math.

No you really didn't, because you even neglected to post one scan which proved Guardian was the biggest part in defeating Galactus as he messed with his internal energy no one else even came close to replicating that or even caused significant damage to him that would linger. Fine we shall let others.

Off-panel you mean, and Sentry fought the Collective breifly and he was then easily BFR. The second time, Iron man was helping him and Iron Man was even seriously rocking the Collective himself.

Like I said ignoring context, as most of AF in the first time they fought the X-Men were literally attacked from behind or sneak attacked, the second time you think hitting someone once is a stomp. Alpha Flight beat Ranark the Ravanger, the Great Beasts, Dreamqueen, hell even Carcass who was going to destroy ALL of REALITY. I have done the math and they have done far more then what Sentry has done to this date.

Those scans of the Galactus fight and the Juggernaut fights dont look so good for Alpha Flight. Guardian took out a totally powerless Galactus. So what. Juggs (depowered) beat the hell out of sasquatch.

Sentry is better than that.

So what? lulz, and Juggernaut most definetly did not beat the hell out of Sasquatch. Also Walter is not the key component in this Sentry fight anyways as I have said many many times.

I know you like Sentry but when you have people like Snowbird who can become an Elder God like Tanaraq or Neooqtoq why do you think Sentry stands a chance? I know in every Sentry thread you say he wins, but come on.

Sentry sure wasn't better then getting beat by a robot or the chrysler building, going one on one with teenage Namor or getting sucker punched by Ms.Marvel, or Iron Fist easily dodging his blow.

^ Accusing me of ignoring Alpha Flight's consistently high feats and focusing only on their low feats and then turning right around in the next post and ignoring Sentry's consistently high feats and focusing only on Sentry's low feats yourself? Congratulations.

My excuse was that I was comparing side-to-side performances. Alpha Flight was raped by the same foe that Sentry was able to go toe-to-toe with. And Alpha Flight jobbed to a few X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut, which World War Hulk rapestomped, who in turn was matched by Sentry. What's your excuse?

Originally posted by -K-M-
So what? lulz, and Juggernaut most definetly did not beat the hell out of Sasquatch. Also Walter is not the key component in this Sentry fight anyways as I have said many many times.

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I was just saying that the two examples you were submitting werent that impressive. I havent followed Alpha Flight since I collected the first 10 or so from their original series. Here I thought Guardian was way, way more than I remembered with him taking on Galactus and so forth and from the scans, he isnt. You had me thinking he was uber or something and that doesnt seem to be the case. I dont think he has anything for Sentry actually.

Sasquatch was talking to God when he came to and by the looks of the scan, did not want anymore of Juggernaut at the time. And yes, I realize that sasquatch is not a factor against the Sentry.

I know you like Sentry but when you have people like Snowbird who can become an Elder God like Tanaraq or Neooqtoq why do you think Sentry stands a chance? I know in every Sentry thread you say he wins, but come on.

If Snowbird resorts to becoming a Great Beast, he would lose. There I admitted it, but she could get speedblitzed before she turned too. How often does Snowbird resort to turning into one of the great beasts? I'm just curious as I dont know. Was it more than the one time. Hell with that power, Alpha Flight should never lose to anybody period.

Sentry sure wasn't better then getting beat by a robot or the chrysler building, going one on one with teenage Namor or getting sucker punched by Ms.Marvel, or Iron Fist easily dodging his blow.

The CAP robot was pretty stout. Was anybody else doing anything to it? The Chrysler Building? Come on man, dont resort to that garbage. Teenage Namor? I keep seeing you mention this. Is this the Invaders/Avengers story where they each punched each other once? I know you dont really think any incarnation of Namor would beat Sentry. Ms. Marvel sucker punched him. So what. Ms. Marvel knows what the deal is. When shit hits the fan, she sends Bob. Iron Fist easily dodged his blows. How long do you think that would have lasted if Sentry was pissed? Now Iron Fist has a chance of beating Sentry? Please. Your just upset using these examples.