Sephiroth vs Pyron

Originally posted by JustFrame
Although I feel that Pyron would win, simply due to the fact that we have been able to gauge Pyron's powers which are on borderline ridiculous, Sephiroth should absolutely not be underrated, because he has never fought at his full potential, so again gauging Sephiroth on his abilities will simply become theory from here on out, until Square-Enix either officially confirms what his full potential is, or makes another Post-FFVII w/e showcasing Sephiroth with his full potential.

You have to admit that not even Sephiroth can fight a guy who can speedblitz a planet FTL. Last time I checked, there is not even any entities in FF that can trafel lightspeed, even less so FTL.

I am amazed at this guy's fanboyism.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
You have to admit that not even Sephiroth can fight a guy who can speedblitz a planet FTL. Last time I checked, there is not even any entities in FF that can trafel lightspeed, even less so FTL.

Ultimecia can can control time itself, and no offense, but Time Controlling>>>Any form of speed period.

However, I didn't disagree on Pyron>>>Sephiroth, in fact, I did agree that Pyron would more then likely defeat Sephiroth. However your completely debunking my who post, I have stated it over, that Sephiroth has never ever show cased his potential, as officially stated by Square Enix.

Not to mention if you want to talk speed of FTL..well, SE has stated that Sephiroth can teleport, something he was visually able to do with his clone in VII (a vastly inferior version of the Real Sephiroth)...and umm...doesn't Teleport>>>any form of speed anyways?

However, even with that stated, I am still pointed towards Pyron, simply for the fact that they we know Pyron's full potential abilities, while Sephiroth is simply a guess work.

Lastly, we need to quit it with the Fanboy comments, if I was a fanboy, I'd be saying Sephiroth wins cus he's the ruxxor's!! Or something like that, however I had to comment something on Sephiroth's behalf.

Teleport is an ability of its own. Speed and teleport are two factors that can not be compared to one another. While a teleporter can pop up anywhere, one with fast enough reaction time can fight him, but a speedster however can not be fought unless you can match his speed. This is why I brought up the question if there are people in FF that travel FTL.

I do not know if you have seen The Batman, but he fought a manipulator of time. He defeated him by being a step ahead (Knockout prevented the manipulator from manipulating). Fighting one that teleport can work in the same way. By being one step ahead, you can prevent the teleporter from teleporting.

Take a speedster into the example. Even if the advesary has the ability to teleport, it does not mean he has the required reaction time to teleport before being struck by the speedster.

Time, teleport and speed are three various factors. Time is obviously the strongest factor, but it is not a factor this thread should revolve around.

The big question is: Can Sephiroth react to FTL? In the answer of that question lies the outcome of this battle (Assuming (Which I'm not) that Sephiroth can defeat full-powered Pyron at all)
The speed of light is: 299 792 458 m/s
FTL = Faster Than Light: 299 792 459+ m/s

And before you say anything, no, I'm not bringing all this up to "counter" you or something. Speed, time and teleport is a very discussable matter and I just thought I should put my point of view into it.

Pyron farts on Sephiroth and wins.

Originally posted by JustFrame
It really isn't baseless logic, considering on the official AC accounts, even from Square Enix themselves, Sephiroth appeared only to torture Cloud on a mental note and mess around with him, not flat out destroy Cloud.

In fact, Square-Enix has even stated that Sephiroth not once Pre-Nimbleheim, FFVII, and AC did he ever exert his full strength. Meaning, Sephiroth throughout all this time has been holding back and has never show cased his absolute full power, so his true full strength still remains a massive mystery.

The fact is simple, it has been stated that Sephiroth is the single most powerful being in the Final Fantasy VII Universe, the mere fact that he survives death pretty much says it to you and me.

Sephiroth doesn't "defeat" Cloud simply due to plot devices (how stupid would it be if the hero loses in the game...yes, that would be fun spending countless hours in a game only to see a [B]bad ending), not to mention Sephiroth would rather toy with Cloud and try to break him down mentally then outright blow him out psychically, because if Sephiroth wanted to kill Cloud, he could easily do it.

Although I feel that Pyron would win, simply due to the fact that we have been able to gauge Pyron's powers which are on borderline ridiculous, Sephiroth should absolutely not be underrated, because he has never fought at his full potential, so again gauging Sephiroth on his abilities will simply become theory from here on out, until Square-Enix either officially confirms what his full potential is, or makes another Post-FFVII w/e showcasing Sephiroth with his full potential. [/B]

That's a no-lit fallacy, however. No-Limit fallacies are fine to state and discuss, but they can not really be used in a debate. I can debate that because Hancock has never shown to have struggled to lift an object, and his durability has never been contested, that he could possibly go toe-to-toe with Superman, but I can't state it factually or even theoretically because that'd be putting a limit or a lack there-of on a character that does not exist.

So, the fact that Sephiroth does not go all out against Cloud, and is never seen going all out, does not really help him in debates. It's proven feats and events that matetr in debates not theories.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
-snip-

Teleporting to attack would be far more beastly then having sheer speed to attack. Batman's opponent was in no way in comparison to Sephiroth, and the idea of "thinking" before you attack can be true, however you still have to "think" and predict before attacking.

However moving is still slower then teleportation in itself, because if we where to "really" calculate on how teleportation would be like, you'd be so fast that they would literally be seeing doppel gangers of yourself attacking the opponent.

So yes, I argue this, because you stated that FTL would be a reason why Pyron>Sephiroth, however Sephiroth would easily trump this by teleporting, which would negate this "speed advantage", and in VII Sephiroth's false clone was shown instantly teleporting himself, yet this is a False Sephiroth being merely mind controlled by the real Sephiroth. I only mentioned Ultimecia's Time Control simply for the fact that this would also trump FTL.

As for the notion of "can" Sephiroth move at FTL speed, for the current record, Sephiroth has never been shown moving at FTL speed in any of his incarnations, however again, we have not yet seen Sephiroth utilizing his full abilities at full power, so his true speed/strength/powers/abilities etc, etc are all still up in the air, leaving one to say what can he really do.

Because if you remember Dirge of Cerberus, Vincent utilizing his absolute full potential with all of the plot guides to push him into his ridiculous form, sending a blast of energy that was shown and seen from outerspace left me to believe that Vincent Chaos Mode Full Potential>Sephiroth, however again, that's not the case by SquareEnix when they announced FFVII, Sephiroth is #1. So again, it leaves you with something in mind...just how powerful is Sephiroth?

However trying to gauge his maximum potential is too difficult, and reasons why I give it to Pyron because we know his capabilities already.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
So, the fact that Sephiroth does not go all out against Cloud, and is never seen going all out, does not really help him in debates. It's proven feats and events that matetr in debates not theories.

Theories only don't matter when they have utilized their full potential. The fact that we have never seen Sephiroth going full blown, how can you not question how far he can potentially go?

The guy does not even die anymore for crying out loud, and the longer he stays in the lifestream, the more powerful he even becomes, in fact Sephiroth's strength continues to only grow, not "staying" at it's current rate.

However, again, I've still said Pyron>Sephiroth anyhow from what we have on paper.

What did they actually say when they put Sephiroth above other characters?

Originally posted by Burning thought
What did they actually say when they put Sephiroth above other characters?

It's been years since I last read it, however from a japanese guy who translated it years go, it was something that Sephiroth is the most powerful entity within the Final Fantasy VII World.

Throughout his entire time that Sephiroth has been showcased in Pre-Nimbleheim, VII, and AC, he has never exerted his full strength, simply because he is thinking well beyond the human level throughout his entire time especially when he emersed with the lifestream and his gathering of nearly infinite knowledge through it.

In Producer Kitase's own word's obviously talking about Sephiroth within the FFVII Universe itself...

"Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him."

Originally posted by JustFrame
Theories only don't matter when they have utilized their full potential. The fact that we have never seen Sephiroth going full blown, how can you not question how far he can potentially go?

Because your questioning and hypothesis do not hold any water in a debate, which is all I am talking about. If you were to have a topic that was specifically about speculating Sephiroth's true power level, then theories are fine, but you can not use a theory for one's power in a debate. Character's who have not been shown to have limits are deemed unknowns and are generally not used in debates unitl their pwoers and abilities are more substantiated.

The guy does not even die anymore for crying out loud, and the longer he stays in the lifestream, the more powerful he even becomes, in fact Sephiroth's strength continues to only grow, not "staying" at it's current rate.

There are many characters with abilities that are similar, and death is not the only way to lose a vs. fight, so being "immortal" is irrelevant.

However, again, I've still said Pyron>Sephiroth anyhow from what we have on paper.

Teh discussion is no longer really about Sepihorth vs. Pyron, and this topic was a joke thread anyway created by a troll. No one is accusing you of being a fanboy or making fanboyish comments, methinks. It's clear who you think would win.

As for Genome... he tends to not think things through sometimes.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
-snip-

I believe you misunderstood what I was saying, the reason why I spoke of Sephiroth's untold potential was simply for the fact that it became too difficult to gauge, simply for the fact that he has never fought at full strength, nor do we know his full capabilities.

While for someone like Pyron, it is obvious that we do know his potentials and abilities, so I felt that it was quite unfair to pit up a "well established ability" character like Pyron to a character who has not yet fully exerted himself in a battle such as Sephiroth.

Maybe if someone put Ultimecia vs Pyron, then we could get a far more interesting battle, simply because Ultimecia has shown more of her full potential then someone such as Sephiroth.

Still, no worries Hydra, this is all just clean debate anyhow.

Originally posted by JustFrame
I believe you misunderstood what I was saying, the reason why I spoke of Sephiroth's untold potential was simply for the fact that it became too difficult to gauge, simply for the fact that he has never fought at full strength, nor do we know his full capabilities.

While for someone like Pyron, it is obvious that we do know his potentials and abilities, so I felt that it was quite unfair to pit up a "well established ability" character like Pyron to a character who has not yet fully exerted himself in a battle such as Sephiroth.

Maybe if someone put Ultimecia vs Pyron, then we could get a far more interesting battle, simply because Ultimecia has shown more of her full potential then someone such as Sephiroth.

Oh. Then we're essentially in agreement.

Well. 😐

[quot]Still, no worries Hydra, this is all just clean debate anyhow. [/QUOTE]

Interestingly enough, no one has ever called me "hydra" before. Blax, Blaxican, BH. Never hydra. I must meditate on this. mmm

Originally posted by JustFrame
it was something that Sephiroth is the most powerful entity within the Final Fantasy VII World.

Ive heard similiar things, mainly something like "nothing is above his willpower", but overall surely we can use common sense to divulge that some things in FF could still beat him, for example some of the weapons are massive enormously powerful units, also when someone is said to be the most powerful, it could take into account many diffrent things for example he may be considered most powerful due to his enormous areas of power and the abilities he has shown such as calling meteors and such, but ofcourse all this power has weaknesses like slow cast time that would make him vulerable regardless of his power level.

Originally posted by JustFrame
It really isn't baseless logic, considering on the official AC accounts, even from Square Enix themselves, Sephiroth appeared only to torture Cloud on a mental note and mess around with him, not flat out destroy Cloud.

In fact, Square-Enix has even stated that Sephiroth not once Pre-Nimbleheim, FFVII, and AC did he ever exert his full strength. Meaning, Sephiroth throughout all this time has been holding back and has never show cased his absolute full power, so his true full strength still remains a massive mystery.

The fact is simple, it has been stated that Sephiroth is the single most powerful being in the Final Fantasy VII Universe, the mere fact that he survives death pretty much says it to you and me.

Sephiroth doesn't "defeat" Cloud simply due to plot devices (how stupid would it be if the hero loses in the game...yes, that would be fun spending countless hours in a game only to see a [B]bad ending), not to mention Sephiroth would rather toy with Cloud and try to break him down mentally then outright blow him out psychically, because if Sephiroth wanted to kill Cloud, he could easily do it.

Although I feel that Pyron would win, simply due to the fact that we have been able to gauge Pyron's powers which are on borderline ridiculous, Sephiroth should absolutely not be underrated, because he has never fought at his full potential, so again gauging Sephiroth on his abilities will simply become theory from here on out, until Square-Enix either officially confirms what his full potential is, or makes another Post-FFVII w/e showcasing Sephiroth with his full potential. [/B]

Advent Children is considered non-canon in this forum and thus is irrelevant unless it is specifically stated that it's allowed in the first post of the thread by the OP. Otherwise the assumption is that only the actual video games are allowed as sources.

Woah. I totally forgot about that...

AC is non-canon...

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Woah. I totally forgot about that...

AC is non-canon...

AC is canon you cannot deny SE's own official statements, just not considered "canon" within this forum, which actually comes as new news for me seriously.

I mean it's not canon in regards to the forum rules. I think the Halo novels are the same way.

You and I need to work on our communication skills. 😐

Originally posted by JustFrame
AC is canon you cannot deny SE's own official statements, just not considered "canon" within this forum, which actually comes as new news for me seriously.

It's been in the rules longer than you have been a member on KMC.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I mean it's not canon in regards to the forum rules. I think the Halo novels are the same way.

You and I need to work on our communication skills. 😐

Lol, yes, we do 😄

Originally posted by Peach
Advent Children is considered non-canon in this forum and thus is irrelevant unless it is specifically stated that it's allowed in the first post of the thread by the OP. Otherwise the assumption is that only the actual video games are allowed as sources.

What if the video game after the movie states that the events in the movie are canon, because FF7: DoC which happens after AC, states the event of AC, so if we go by the canon video game storyline of FF7: DoC, it states that the events did infact happen, like Sephiroth gaining control over the lifestream, the geostigma disease, etc so if we go by the game DoC, Sephiroth did have his abilities from the movie.