Originally posted by Burning thought
She can retain as many powers as she wants, ime not debating her losing her powers, ime debating her being ableto do it to every entity simply because you assume she can since she can beat Squall and the FF universe using it, which ofc she did fail at as well so there you have it, but if you say that she could reality manip any being even say, LT just because she controls reality you would be using a no limit fallacy because manipulating reality depends on the reality and you still have not shown me her even manipulating reality. Sounds like one of those hyperbole moments to me.
Its not,its a big fat orblike thing itsnot a blast wave of energy like a nuclear explosion is...show me Holy as a blast wave before Sephiroth stops it then....from whta ive seen its nothing like a nuclear blast wave.
problem is, the spell is described in the games storyline when Kain speaks of it, the spell is described as what its doing, what your describing is the in-gameplay power of heartless angel, simply a one hit kill move, wheras in LOK, it actually tells you what the move is doing. If i had based my argument on the soul rip one hit killing pyron around it destroying vampires in gameplay, then I would be just as wrong as the example you brought up about heartless angel, thing is, ime not, ime basing it off the ability itself, what it actually does and its canon descriptions of the ability.
problem is all of that rubbish doesnt have a rule and the spell being optional still doesnt mean anything at all since its still an ability you gain as I said, in DMC a lot of the abilities are optionla but their still canon abilities, why do you keep bringing materia in this debate, materia is nothing like LOK spells because A: their simply items that you gain like an item drop in most RPG games and you can use their power on almost any character so imediatley making them items more alike to DMC holy waters, wheras Kains spelsl are unique to him and abilities he gains along his Journey, and as ive said as youve prob ignored, their even more canon than DMC due to the fact A: he has in story script of it, its not simply like cloud saying "ive acquired lightning", its an actual story script and either way you fail imediatley after saying buying materia, thats an other element of not unique to the character and even more optional,but as for storyline words for example spirit death is:
And where is your proof that just Kain can learn the spells and no other vampire? The thing is its NOT an actual canon storyline script, its kain gaining a spell and describing it, its as optional as picking up materia, or buying materia, you can go on with the storyline without it, it's not required for the story to continue
Thats not a gameplay notification, its a story script.
If its not shown in the other games its because the developers dont want players using it in the gmae, but its gained exacltey the same way as the "mist" spell and thats still in the game, its simply a developers choice, not a storyline choice, in the storyline Kain gains it, its a canon ability jsut like any other unique character ability in games and therefore it would take a canon event to remove the spell.
No its not likely at all, since hte player only plays as Kain in 3 of those sequels so no and second its nothing like materia as I stated above so all this part of your argument falls flat on its face. And wtf are you talking about, when I was playing through the game of DMC I acquired the shotgun in DMC 3, is the Shotgun uncanon? no its not, its in the game, its a canon weapon/ability you seem to be struggling with whats actually canon or not, another example, I was playing the game GOW1 when i came across the Hades shrine and gained hades army, that ability is still a canon ability Kratos gets on his travels.
Yes it makes perfect sense, if the Developrs dont want Kain to have access to certain spells simply because they want a diffrent spell set or something then they can stop the palyer form using it, its that simple....
Kain can rip all foes apart from bosses, all foes include demons, humans and vampires alike, which fyi, most of the bosses are all human, this is where you argument falls flat on its face again because your using gameplay limits and not storyline, which is probably another reason why you have difficulty understanding storyline and canon abilities. Also youve come across a massive paradox in your logic here, youve just said characters way above LOK characters yet pyron being able to be destroyed by his soul being ripped out which he has no defence against imedialtey makes Kain a LOK above Pyron, thus your point is broken, and second, you fail at using my words againt me, simply because theres nothing in your point that contradicts my logic at all especially after your broken points.
Kain gains his spell in the story, its in his script as I said above, does Cloud have his voice acter (does Cloud even speak with a voice acter?) speak in character when he gains materia, or do you get the little blue screen and white writing simply telling youve acquired it, theres a big diffrence that you need to understand between storyline script and gameplay affermitives.
Becuase half the buildings that are cut do have a lot of hollow spots, bad weaknesses, ime clever enough to point them out and so I can easily use it to my advantage but you made this long post for nothing, yes sephiroth DID stop Holy, and the part of the argument where you fail is that I can counter that with Squall and friends DID stop Ultemacia with friendship, as I said, rediculous logic from both sides, take all of it, or none at all, picking and choosing what you like is not the way it works ime afraid.
Originally posted by Terryc250
This is Time-Compressed Ultimecia, as in, she already gained her powers.Uhh.. no its not, Sephiroth compressed it into a ball orb like shape, when it was released it was a huge energy wave, if a nuclear blast went in one direction, and didn't fade over distance, it would be just that, a wave of energy travelling in one direction, it never showed Holy getting stopped in a cutscene, Aeris summoned it before she died, and Sephiroth stopped it.
Again, its an optional spell, its not the actual canon storyline that he gets it, its just a decription of the spell, the decription for L4 Death materia in the strategy guide, went something like % chance of causing death to opponent, does that mean whoever has that materia will be causing death to anyone? And from what I heard, spirit death it didn't work on EVERY opponent.
Because optional spells are a lot like materia, both are optional, DMC abilities are canon because they're character abilities, and they appear again and again in each sequal, unlike those optional spells kain could possibly get in the first game, yet dissappeared in the next 5 games and went unheard of ever again.
And where is your proof that just Kain can learn the spells and no other vampire? The thing is its NOT an actual canon storyline script, its kain gaining a spell and describing it, its as optional as picking up materia, or buying materia, you can go on with the storyline without it, it's not required for the story to continue
It's kain describing a spell he gained, has nothing to do with the canon storyline, nor is it needed to carry on with the story.
See theres where you're wrong, "mist" isn't a spell, its a character ability, which you were able to use in Defiance, and even if you weren't able to use it, the fact that he displayed he was able to do it over and over again, proves its his character ability that he can use.
The shotgun appeared more then once in the sequals, and unless the thread creator stated the weapons Dante is using, we don't automatically assume Dante has a shotgun with him or any other 10 guns, when we debate Dante alone, we assume he has his regular weapons
Or it probably just means the character doesn't have the spell.. (most likely) can you name another game where a character 100% has a spell but the game developers choose to "not let him use it" ?
The bosses are more powerful then weak common foes, and probably has a more powerful will to resist, thing is, you're only basing that Kain can rip Pyrons soul based on Kains description of an optional spell he doesn't even have in the actual storyline, even when he actually performs it, he can only use it on common weak foes, so really.. who has Kain soul ripped? A grunt? There are plenty of times he had the opportunity to use it in the entire LOK storyline, so why hasn't he? Gee i wonder why..
Its an [b]optional
spell, meaning it isn't neccesary for the character to have that spell, and the fact that it was unheard of again basically proves it isn't in the canon storyline, it doesn't matter if its written or if a voice tells you to press the attack key, it makes no difference.So now you're going to argue that cutting a building in half doesn't require much strength? It just proves how you try too hard to downplay things, the difference is Sephiroth stopping holy is a feat, "the power of friendship" isnt. [/B]
Show me, a nuclear blast is nothing like holy either way
you keep saying "canon storyline" when the whole game is the storyline, before we can debate, tlel me what you think is storyline, if you think cutscenes are the only thing thats storyline, then you are wrong so I need to know what you actually think is a storyline and which is canon first. And what you described is an in-game description of an effect thats also in-game, hence the percentage, its just like A does 100 damage to B, however thats not what the Soul rip information is, its canon storyline script.
no its not like materia, first as I said, its just as optional as most other powers, who functions are exactley the same in gaining them, yet often appear in other LOK games, thus your theory of something simply not appearing yet disapearing doesnt mean anything.
The same proof for every most beings in ficiton, the game never showns any other vampire gaining them, therefore Kain is the sole user, therefore their unique powers that belong to Kain. As i said before ,you need overlook what you think is canon, storyline and get over the fact that cutscenes are not the only storyline, especially when it comes to abilities of characters, for example in a fighting game, just because character A does not have a cutscene showing most of his combat moves doesnt mean their not canon. And yes Spirit death works on all species.
yeh, its a character ability, why are you saying abilities are diffrent to spells in your line of thinking in this debate? are you saying somehow your line of logic does not cover abilities but it does spells now? the point I was making is that it is in other games yet its gained exactley the same way as Spirit death is.
yes we do, ive had it used againt me in countless Dante debates and as you can imagie due to his popularity theres a lot of them. people randomly throw in his weapons and abilities, even the optional ones.
yeh, Dante has quicksilver in DMC3, yet he does not have it in DMC1 or 4 even though DMC3 is set before them both. Also the devleopers always take away abilities if they dont want to use them, for example Dante cannot fly in DMC 4 when he uses Devil trigger can he? when he could in DMC1 I belive, thats another one all in the same game, the same is in God of War 2, Kratos loses ALL is old spells from God of war 1 without reason, I think he has the poseidon one but thats all, even when he has all his power when hes got the blade of Olympus he doesnt have them so its not a power thing either unless theres a reason their gone.
Thats not necesserily true tbh, the Mentalist for example dies in one soul reaver slash just like most normal enemies, what your doing is adding abilities that are not described, it would be like me saying "well Kain is stronger in willpower than sephiroth just because hes older and uberz!", its simply not stated, the Bosses are almost ALL human, with some extra wizardly but no mentioned resistances or canon powers that would give them resistance other than the gameplay balance (which is obvious, icant belive I have to describe to you game mechanics, it would be pretty lame to one hit kill each boss because you can rip out his soul) .
Once again, your failing because your using gameplay, ime basing Kain destroying pyorn because of the power of the spell itself and what it does, and Pyron has no resistance against such a power, the same reason why soul devouring is so common and powerful in the DS game itself.
Name me those times Terry, name me those times if you can.....youve not played the game but please try....
but the voice didnt say "press the attack key", the voice was storyline script, it wasnt even telling you what the spell did in gameplay, proving it wasnt a gameplay scrpt either, you fail so much because youve not even played the game and have no idea how it works, and it seems yu dont know what canon and storyline really mean, as i said before,what do you think canon storyline is?
erm yes it is, its a power....just like stopping holy with "uberez willpowers!!"
Originally posted by Terryc250it is canon because its a skill ALL vampires aquire over time..the vampires develop the ability to use magic as they evlolve..proven by vorador, who used the spells to kill 6 of the former guardians..
Again, its an optional spell, its not the actual canon storyline that he gets it, its just a decription of the spell, the decription for L4 Death materia in the strategy guide, went something like % chance of causing death to opponent, does that mean whoever has that materia will be causing death to anyone? And from what I heard, spirit death it didn't work on EVERY opponent.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Because optional spells are a lot like materia, both are optional, DMC abilities are canon because they're character abilities, and they appear again and again in each sequal, unlike those optional spells kain could possibly get in the first game, yet dissappeared in the next 5 games and went unheard of ever again.
Originally posted by Terryc250
And where is your proof that just Kain can learn the spells and no other vampire? The thing is its NOT an actual canon storyline script, its kain gaining a spell and describing it, its as optional as picking up materia, or buying materia, you can go on with the storyline without it, it's not required for the story to continue.
Originally posted by Terryc250
It's kain describing a spell he gained, has nothing to do with the canon storyline, nor is it needed to carry on with the story.
Originally posted by Terryc250here the tragic flaw with your argument...you're saying learned abilities and magic are different..they arent...magic is a skill all vampires learn..
See theres where you're wrong, "mist" isn't a spell, its a character ability, which you were able to use in Defiance, and even if you weren't able to use it, the fact that he displayed he was able to do it over and over again, proves its his character ability that he can use.
Originally posted by Terryc250except kains spells are a part of him...its like saying you can "aquire" one of your arms then mysteriosuly lose it..
The shotgun appeared more then once in the sequals, and unless the thread creator stated the weapons Dante is using, we don't automatically assume Dante has a shotgun with him or any other 10 guns, when we debate Dante alone, we assume he has his regular weapons.
Originally posted by Terryc250kain simply cannot lose a spell..sure the ability to access the spell can be repressed, as it was in BO2, but they simply cannot disappear..and fyi - diablo, heroes of might and magic, soul reaver (raziel, not kain), mario, sonic, knytt stories, star wars (not just videogames), commander keen, LOOM, to name a few..
Or it probably just means the character doesn't have the spell.. (most likely) can you name another game where a character 100% has a spell but the game developers choose to "not let him use it"?.
Originally posted by Terryc250
The bosses are more powerful then weak common foes, and probably has a more powerful will to resist, thing is, you're only basing that Kain can rip Pyrons soul based on Kains description of an optional spell he doesn't even have in the actual storyline, even when he actually performs it, he can only use it on common weak foes, so really.. who has Kain soul ripped? A grunt? There are plenty of times he had the opportunity to use it in the entire LOK storyline, so why hasn't he? Gee i wonder why..
Originally posted by Terryc250
Its an [b]optional spell, meaning it isn't neccesary for the character to have that spell, and the fact that it was unheard of again basically proves it isn't in the canon storyline, it doesn't matter if its written or if a voice tells you to press the attack key, it makes no difference.[/B]
Originally posted by Terryc250bulshit, friendship is the most powerful force in the universe - its even stronger than chuck norris..
So now you're going to argue that cutting a building in half doesn't require much strength? It just proves how you try too hard to downplay things, the difference is Sephiroth stopping holy is a feat, "the power of friendship" isnt.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sephiroth owns Kain blindfolded and with his hands tied, but Kain would beat Pyron, simply because Pyron can't beat little bloodsuckers.
And it's a real shame you've never had anything even remotely useful to say in any thread ever...
Not only do you speak enough $h!t to fill every sewer in every major city across the globe, you actually beleive your own hype!
Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me, a nuclear blast is nothing like holy either way
you keep saying "canon storyline" when the whole game is the storyline, before we can debate, tlel me what you think is storyline, if you think cutscenes are the only thing thats storyline, then you are wrong so I need to know what you actually think is a storyline and which is canon first. And what you described is an in-game description of an effect thats also in-game, hence the percentage, its just like A does 100 damage to B, however thats not what the Soul rip information is, its canon storyline script.
no its not like materia, first as I said, its just as optional as most other powers, who functions are exactley the same in gaining them, yet often appear in other LOK games, thus your theory of something simply not appearing yet disapearing doesnt mean anything.
The same proof for every most beings in ficiton, the game never showns any other vampire gaining them, therefore Kain is the sole user, therefore their unique powers that belong to Kain. As i said before ,you need overlook what you think is canon, storyline and get over the fact that cutscenes are not the only storyline, especially when it comes to abilities of characters, for example in a fighting game, just because character A does not have a cutscene showing most of his combat moves doesnt mean their not canon. And yes Spirit death works on all species.
yeh, its a character ability, why are you saying abilities are diffrent to spells in your line of thinking in this debate? are you saying somehow your line of logic does not cover abilities but it does spells now? the point I was making is that it is in other games yet its gained exactley the same way as Spirit death is.
No spirit death is an optional spell you can obtain, its no different then Knights Of the Round summon, the story carries on whether or not you choose to get it.
yeh, Dante has quicksilver in DMC3, yet he does not have it in DMC1 or 4 even though DMC3 is set before them both. Also the devleopers always take away abilities if they dont want to use them, for example Dante cannot fly in DMC 4 when he uses Devil trigger can he? when he could in DMC1 I belive, thats another one all in the same game, the same is in God of War 2, Kratos loses ALL is old spells from God of war 1 without reason, I think he has the poseidon one but thats all, even when he has all his power when hes got the blade of Olympus he doesnt have them so its not a power thing either unless theres a reason their gone.
Getting slashed from the reaver and getting a spell used on is different, if spirit death was that powerful don't you think it would the most powerful spell in the game? Like honestly, no writer would write a story where the character is so above everyone that he can simply kill everyone who opposes him with a gesture, it would be a lame story.
Thats not necesserily true tbh, the Mentalist for example dies in one soul reaver slash just like most normal enemies, what your doing is adding abilities that are not described, it would be like me saying "well Kain is stronger in willpower than sephiroth just because hes older and uberz!", its simply not stated, the Bosses are almost ALL human, with some extra wizardly but no mentioned resistances or canon powers that would give them resistance other than the gameplay balance (which is obvious, icant belive I have to describe to you game mechanics, it would be pretty lame to one hit kill each boss because you can rip out his soul) .
Looking at it realistically, the optional spell either is non-canon (since it was never actually used in the storyline, and doesnt even appear ever again), or it doesn't simply work as an instakill everyone who opposes him.
Once again, your failing because your using gameplay, ime basing Kain destroying pyorn because of the power of the spell itself and what it does, and Pyron has no resistance against such a power, the same reason why soul devouring is so common and powerful in the DS game itself.
Name me those times Terry, name me those times if you can.....youve not played the game but please try....
but the voice didnt say "press the attack key", the voice was storyline script, it wasnt even telling you what the spell did in gameplay, proving it wasnt a gameplay scrpt either, you fail so much because youve not even played the game and have no idea how it works, and it seems yu dont know what canon and storyline really mean, as i said before,what do you think canon storyline is?
Same thing as Kains optional spell, it was a player choice, but in its sequals it was unheard of, then it most likely wasn't canon.
erm yes it is, its a power....just like stopping holy with "uberez willpowers!!" [/B]
Originally posted by Terryc250
Kind of hard to show you a Nuclear Blast travelling in one direction, use your brain, itll be a destructive force wave evaporating everything in its path, just like Holy.The "story" is the canon storyline, don't get me wrong i didn't say ALL optional things are non-canon, what i mean is it could be non-canon, but i'm saying because of the fact that he never used it in the actual story and it went unheard of in every other sequal, it probably was non-canon.
Yes.. they're both optional.. and its the same thing as me picking up an optional summon in my game, yet when a sequal comes out I don't have that summon.
That doesn't mean anything, that could just mean they haven't learned it yet, it doesn't mean theyre incapable of learning it, cutscenes only confirm that its canon, mandatory spells confirms its canon, character using it in the storyline confirms its canon, optional spells could possibly mean non-canon, optional spells that were never heard of again after the game is over for the rest of the sequals means it is most likely non-canon.
A lot of the times spells are something that are learned, character abilities are usually attributes of the character.
No spirit death is an optional spell you can obtain, its no different then Knights Of the Round summon, the story carries on whether or not you choose to get it.
Dante infact does acquire quicksilver in the storyline whether he lost it or not it doesn't really matter because he actually did have it, its different from just an optional spell, Dante has differnet Devil forms, the one from DMC2 i believe is his Majin form the one thats able to fly, the one in DMC4 is a different form probably because Ares changes him,
Getting slashed from the reaver and getting a spell used on is different, if spirit death was that powerful don't you think it would the most powerful spell in the game? Like honestly, no writer would write a story where the character is so above everyone that he can simply kill everyone who opposes him with a gesture, it would be a lame story.
Looking at it realistically, the optional spell either is non-canon (since it was never actually used in the storyline, and doesnt even appear ever again), or it doesn't simply work as an instakill everyone who opposes him.
So if he can use it against anyone, answer me this, why doesn't he ever use it?
Anytime anyone opposes him, why does he bother to battle them if he can simply "soul rip" them?
that doesn't mean anything unless it was a mandaory speech he says in the story, its just how the developers chose to present how the spells are described,
and its hard to tell what was actually the canon storyline because we're not watching it as a movie, the choices we as players make aren't always the actual canon choices the story is, we can only interprete what was actually canon from the sequals, for example if i chose bolt over fire in FF7, then in FF7-2 Cloud has fire, then fire was probably the canon choice, if i battled Sephiroth with Ultima Weapon, yet in the flashback in AC Cloud was holding the Buster Sword, then that was the actual canon weapon Cloud was carrying in the actual fight, if i attained the optional summon knights of the round in FF7, but in FF7-2 theres no such thing, then that was probably non-canonSame thing as Kains optional spell, it was a player choice, but in its sequals it was unheard of, then it most likely wasn't canon.
Its not a feat, its plot device stupidity for defeating Time-Compression Ultimecia, Sephiroth wouldn't give 2 shits about who Squalls friends are
no smart one, I want you to show me Holy travelling like that please.
Its all the story, even parts the player is playing is story, what are you calling story? all the cutscenes, do you know how wrong you are if thats what you belve, if we cut out all the cutscenes from some games and just played them, they wouldnt make a story and they wouldnt make sense.
thing is any summoner can use their summon so imediatley its not a unique ability further encompassing the fact its not canon and what are you talking about sequels, FF games rarely from what ive seen have real sequels, theres only a few games that are set in the same universe really, since Tidus in FF10 is not in FF7 is he? their like lots of diffrent mini stories and universes from what ive seen.
No but thats the thing, your guessig now, your guessing, I could just as easily say Mundus may be able to eventually learn all of Dantes moves, therefore their not unique and Dante cannot use them in debates....your falling over again, pick yourself up. Kain mentions he has the spell in the storyline in his script, ive just shown you a page ago.
Attributes of a character are attributues of a character, Abilities you learn, you learn how to use Kung fu for example, your ability in Kung fu is not an attribute as such, its something you learn.
As optional as all of Dantes abilities that are aslo canon, their all storyline abilities that Kain mentions, and Knights of the round is the same as every Summon as ive mentioned, theres nothing more "non unique to characters" than materia.
W8 a min, now your saying he acquires it in the storyline? where? are you talking about a cutscene, now I think were getting to the bare bones of your failure, your calling everything thats not a cutscene, not storyline..thats why you are having difficulty in debating this and why you dont seem to know whats canon or not, cutscenes in games are not the only canon bits in games. its no diffrent and saying he has diffrent forms doesnt mean anything, simply put, he doesnt have it in DMC 4, which is set after DMC 1 in which he has flight. Thus my point stands.
No its not, you see this is where you fail again, the reaver is Magical and it rips souls.....the spell spirit Death is magical and it Rips souls now do we see the comparisons, how if a guy who can be damaged by the same attributes as the spell, but not by the spell, its obvious that its gameplay that Kain cannot tkae out bosses if it was not already obvious already ofc...but it seems I have to explain these things to you.
Because he doesnt need it, and developers dont want him to either, as both me and Madmel have listed games where characters lost abilities they obviously have in canon this should be obvious in itself. Also as I said, who would he use it against? theres no one he even NEEDS to use the spell on, whos he going to use his power on? some knights that he could kill in one strike with a slash of his sword? Who would Kain even possibly need in Defiance to use his spell on?
It doesnt have to be used in the storylnie and technically, some say the power Kain uses in the storyline in Soul reaver 1 is infact a form of Spirit death as well, either way, Kain mentions it in the story.
Because its unecessary, as I said earlier he has an uber indestructable sword, whos he going to bother ripping out the soul when humans are like rag dolls to him anyway, why use a canon when a knife will do? why use a nuclear bomb when a carpet bombing of 1000lb bombs is fine? you wouldnt woudl you.
As you said, in the story thus its canon, its in the story even by your logic, regardless of how mandatory it is, it proves its canon, its not gameplay, its not even telling you about the spell and its written in the usual Kain tongue anyway, his nobleman arrogant tone, its not some "press this in-game to get this effect" like you were descrbiing.
No becuase completly being unheard means it was simply forgotten due to developer decision like ive said before me and Madmel has shown you this, it happens in a lot of games, developers choose not to use all the spells and tbh I dont blame them, there were a lot of overpowered spells kain can get.
Perhaps Holy somehow being stopped by willpower is also a plot device stupidity, keep in mind that everyone only assumes that its TK sephiroth uses to stop it and not simply willpower as described by many, is there anything that says Sephiroth used TK on it directly? the power of friendship is a feat none the less, simply a ridiculous one in your eyes but then so is stopping a ball of energy with your will alone.....that sounds just as ridiculous "I want Holy to stop and be under my control!!" then suddenly through his will it happens.