Originally posted by Gideonhowever Dooku was exceptional in makashi... what i think you mean is if two equally powered jedi who had advanced their respective forms to the sam degree then no shit your right however someone who has a neo-Knight's lvl makashi would have a difficult time against someone who completely mastered and (partially customized to suit needs) Ataru if not outright defeated
It's irrelevant. I was making a separate point altogether. If Count Dooku's powers were equal to Skywalker, he would tool him in a lightsaber match. Why? His form is better. If you make two equal combatants with Makashi and Djem So fight, the Makashi wielder would come out ahead.
Originally posted by GideonI mean, I thought I saw it in every relevant post, but I may have still been dazzled by the shitfest that is this thread.
Where have I gone wrong? Did I not type "equal combatants" enough? Did I somehow not emphasize that?
@Enyalus: Yuh-huh. Thanks. You're not too late at all. Nope, my senses can still be saved. I haven't lost all hope for humanity.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane goes Anakin on his ass. Same style, better user.
The novelization made it spectacularly clear: it wasn't just Skywalker's "prodigious strength" that overwhelmed Dooku; he was turned into an engine of destruction by his peerless Force reserves. He simply doesn't tire and only gets stronger. Darth Bane doesn't even have Palpatine's Force reserves, much less someone as potent as Anakin.
Originally posted by Gideon
The novelization made it spectacularly clear: it wasn't just Skywalker's "prodigious strength" that overwhelmed Dooku; he was turned into an engine of destruction by his peerless Force reserves. He simply doesn't tire and only gets stronger. Darth Bane doesn't even have Palpatine's Force reserves, much less someone as potent as Anakin.
Perhaps not natural force reserves, but the orbalisks continuously fuel his rage, dark side affinity, and adrenaline. He wouldn't tire during the fight, either. I'd also think it'd be crazy to say that Bane isn't (at the very least) Anakin's equal in strength. He's got, what, 6'' of height on him and was described as 'a mountain of muscle.'
Even so, the strength behind the attack tore Farfalla's golden blade from his grip, sending his lightsaber skittering across the floor. Unarmed and helpless before his enemy, he was saved by Raskta.
Farfalla also might be using Makashi, because it mentions numerous times his elegant 'saber style,' 'defensive stance' and whatnot. Another quote from RoT:
He's too strong, Farfalla realized, even as he ran to help her. Both physically and in the power of the dark side. It's like trying to fight a force of nature.
So...that's what Dooku would be up against. I still don't see how this fight ends up any different than his duel with Anakin.
Dooku was astonished by Anakin Skywalker's physical strength, even though the Count has crossed blades with the likes of Mace Windu (who is capable of fighting Kar Vastor and delivering six punches before Vastor could blink and obliterated an army of battle droids [see: durasteel and metal] with his bare hands) and General Grievous. Skywalker's level of raw power is such that his physical attributes are clearly far beyond what his physical form can account for. When comparing their physique? You might have a point. But there is no definitive proof that, in the end, Bane is physically stronger than Skywalker.
Physically stronger without force-enhancements? Yeah, I'd imagine Bane > Anakin. Anakin was an athletically built young man. Bane was a fully developed 'mountain of muscle.'
Now, physically stronger with force enhancements? I never implied that. I think they'd be about even then.
Also, did you just compare Bane's physical strength to Mace?? 😕
Sir, you seem to habitually confuse the issue. I will reiterate a second and final time to try to make the point clearer.
When one observes the physique of Anakin Skywalker, one does not see a "mountain of muscle" as Darth Bane was described as, but simply wiry Jedi who happens to be very cut and very fit. By physique alone, he's hardly a world-class bodybuilder or whatnot. Still, Count Dooku was in veritable awe of Anakin Skywalker's "sheer physical strength." This reaction is coming from a man who crossed blades with Mace Windu and General Grievous, who are both completely overwhelming opponents and demonstrate physical strength in excess of Darth Bane.
"[Count Dooku] no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength -- not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical strength was astonishing--"
-- Revenge of the Sith, page 71.
As you can see, Count Dooku makes a point of mentioning both Skywalker's reserves of Force energy and his physical strength. Clearly, both are remarkable.
As far as a comparison between Mace and Bane, Mace was able to manhandle an army of super battle droids with his bare hands and fight on even footing with Kar Vastor in a scuffle. He's a physical beast.
EDIT: The point being? Skywalker's reserves of Force energies outclass Bane's. But you can't even state that Bane is definitely stronger than Skywalker on an even physical level.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I wasn't basing my argument on any duel. I was using a priori reasoning. But the ROTS novel does lend weight to what I said. Anakin's strikes were simply too powerful for Makashi to handle.
And your reasoning pretty much sucks.
a) You assume that, because Djem So was probably designed after Makashi, it has to be the better form. What you don't understand is, that those forms have specific philosophies and ideas behind them. Djem So was invented during a time when Jedi where mostly confronted with threats in the form of blaster rifles. Because of that, Djem So is pretty much designed to redirect blaster bolts (which Anakin even does with blaster fire coming in from behind) and with the wide and powerful swings you could probably kill multiple opponents with one swing, considering the fact that thugs generally don't have any defence against lightsabers. Good idea.
Yet Makashi is designed for lightsaber VS lightsaber combat only. It utilizes leverage, positioning and by far more technique than Djem So, which more often than not looks like Baseball Bat lightsaber action. Not to mention that, fighting with one hand, the Jedi / Sith utilizing the form can simultaneously use force attacks, which is a trademark of Dooku - and a great advantage in combat. And you see Dooku outduelling multiple opponents throughout the entire series.
b) You assume that because of the duel between Anakin and Dooku, you can draw any conclusions to the lightsaber forms. Which is total bullshit. Anakin, if I may remind you, doesn't defeat Dooku with his saber alone. He disables Dookus weaponhand by grapping it and then cuts the Counts hands off. Do you recognize that as superior swordsmanship? Hardly. Anakin was faster and stronger - and both is a result of his physical / force abilities and not his saber style.
c) Of course Dooku might have problems with Anakin's swings. Which again comes from Anakin's strength. Had Anakin used any other form, with the exception of Soresu (which is totaly defensive) the result would have been the same.
This aside from the fact that I believe what's written down in the novel is total bullshit. A fencer like Dooku would never attempt to parry attacks like a normal swordfighter would. Instead he would redirect the momentum of the incoming strikes - which is, suprise, what he does in the movie, generally pushing Anakin's saber sidewards, altering the direction of Anakin's attacks. Or were did you see him using real "parries"?
And still Anakin had the advantage of a cybernetic arm (apparently far stronger than a regular one, considering he was able to hold his own weight together with that of Obi-Wan and Sidious with just one hand) and a force potential which exceeded that of Dooku, aiding his cybernetic/natural physical strength. So to draw any conclusions from that fight to a hypothetic match between Bane and Dooku, you would first have too proof that Bane can match Anakin's strength (notice once more: cyborg arm) and his force potential.
d) Djem so is too powerful for Makashi to handle? Uh-hu...Let's have a look at the RotS novel...
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power
to meet Djem So head-to-head."
Yes. He can't generate enough power to parry the swings directly. Yet notice what happens three sentences after that...
"He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep - the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility - that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance [...]"
Ups. Despite being unable to parry the swings of a powerful Djem So user directly, he still has counter-measures when being confronted with an exceptional Djem So user like Anakin, rather easily throwing his opponent off balance. In this situation, according to the novel, he uses that advantage for generating distance between him and Anakin (seeing as he was still fighting Kenobi at the same time), but normally he would have used it to counter-attack.
Does anyone know of any Form II users beating Form V users? (Or even Form V users beating Form II users?) Maybe we should exclude Dooku, since he is, afterall, one of the greatest Jedi/Sith ever. Kind of an exception to the rule, rather than the standard.
What the hell?
Dooku, throughout the saga, has defeated: Obi-Wan Kenobi (form III/IV), Anakin Skywalker (AotC - and Anakin was already using Djem So there), Tholme, Sora Bulq (Vaapad user), Ventress (Jar'kai user), Qui-Gon Djin (form IV user) and, probably most noteable, Grievous, who was capable of utilizing all forms.
And if you want to thrust the RotS novel, he had intimate knowledge about all styles and their corresponding weaknesses - and his Makashi allowing him to capitalize on all of that weaknesses. There is a reason why Yoda believes that only Mace Windu is equal to the Count in sheer lightsaber ability on equal ground. And that's the same reason why Dooku, Mace and Yoda are pretty much above the entire rest of the Jedi Order in lightsaber ability. And I'm pretty sure that this "rest" includes some Djem So users as well, unlike you want to tell me that Aayla Secura or Luminara are able to rival Dooku's lightsaber mastery...
Dooku's saberstyle is actually more akin to real sword fighting, fyi. the flashy spinny crazy stuff is never in sword fighting. If you watch a fencing match you will see what I mean. Also, it was foolish in the middle ages to let your sword take the full impact of a blow instead of glancing it to the side, because the swords were known to break, and then you are screwed.
a) You assume that, because Djem So was probably designed after Makashi, it has to be the better form. What you don't understand is, that those forms have specific philosophies and ideas behind them. Djem So was invented during a time when Jedi where mostly confronted with threats in the form of blaster rifles. Because of that, Djem So is pretty much designed to redirect blaster bolts (which Anakin even does with blaster fire coming in from behind) and with the wide and powerful swings you could probably kill multiple opponents with one swing, considering the fact that thugs generally don't have any defence against lightsabers. Good idea.
Untrue. Know why? "Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling." So says Cin Drallig. It is Form V's initial form, Shien, that's devoted primarily to blasters and defense.
d) Djem so is too powerful for Makashi to handle? Uh-hu...Let's have a look at the RotS novel..."His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power
to meet Djem So head-to-head."Yes. He can't generate enough power to parry the swings directly. Yet notice what happens three sentences after that...
"He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep - the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility - that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance [...]"
Ups. Despite being unable to parry the swings of a powerful Djem So user directly, he still has counter-measures when being confronted with an exceptional Djem So user like Anakin, rather easily throwing his opponent off balance.
So wait, you want to disregard Anakin using a melee move during the duel to cut Dooku's hands off in point b), yet, in order to keep his distance from Anakin, you cite where Dooku himself uses a melee move (reverse ankle sweep).
Dooku, throughout the saga, has defeated: Obi-Wan Kenobi (form III/IV), Anakin Skywalker (AotC - and Anakin was already using Djem So there), Tholme, Sora Bulq (Vaapad user), Ventress (Jar'kai user), Qui-Gon Djin (form IV user) and, probably most noteable, Grievous, who was capable of utilizing all forms.And if you want to thrust the RotS novel, he had intimate knowledge about all styles and their corresponding weaknesses - and his Makashi allowing him to capitalize on all of that weaknesses. There is a reason why Yoda believes that only Mace Windu is equal to the Count in sheer lightsaber ability on equal ground. And that's the same reason why Dooku, Mace and Yoda are pretty much above the entire rest of the Jedi Order in lightsaber ability. And I'm pretty sure that this "rest" includes some Djem So users as well, unlike you want to tell me that Aayla Secura or Luminara are able to rival Dooku's lightsaber mastery...
That's nice and all, but how does that affect what I said at all about a Form II user beating a Form V user, or vice versa? Dooku beat a young and brash Anakin who hadn't mastered Djem So yet. Anakin has beaten Dooku. And Bane's beaten Farfalla. Those are the only real instances we know of a Form II user beating a Form V user, and the reverse.
Again, Dooku was one of the best duelists ever. Just because he can beat a normally skilled Djem So user doesn't mean Form II > Form V. And just because he knew all lightsaber forms but chose to use Form II doesn't make that the best. It just suited his style. Smooth and elegant. If that was the case, why didn't other proficient duelists decide to use the same form?
Also, your point c) is completely your opinion and speculative.
That's all.