hmm i see areas where you are both correct.
However your 5>2 and 2>5 examples are incredibly screwed.
Farfalla is pretty much.. worthless? and so is aotc anakin. so ya. Bane and dooku are in a league above both of those opponents.
In truth, it wasn't anakin's strenght or his form that beat dooku, it was his force reserves, as someone previously stated.
I'm curious how we split hairs for Anakin's defeat of Count Dooku as a brutish man physically overpowering a feeble octogenarian and yet Mace Windu's defeat of Palpatine -- delivered with a kick to the head -- is automatic signs of Windu's superiority in swordsmanship. I would urge you, Nai, in advance, to not initiate flaming. Otherwise it could end up like our last debacle.
EDIT: For the record, Skywalker defeats Dooku in battle in the Clone Wars movie.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I thought everyone was pretty much of the accord that Mace's skills with a saber > Palpatine, but Palpatine's speed > Mace's enough to make it irrelevant, and that the only reason Mace even had a slight chance at winning his duel with Palpatine was because of Vaapad...?lol
Palpatine is- in his natural form- a superior combatant to Mace in his natural form. He's faster, and also has the technical skill to back it up (a 'master of every weapon and every form', according to Nick Gillard). Mace, however, is also a fast combatant and could last long enough in order to 'immerse himself' in Vaapad, giving him a stalemate in speed and power; his Shatterpoint allowed him to find an opening and beat Sidious.
Originally posted by GideonUnless we watched different versions, no he didn't. He knocks him over, steals his bike thing, and runs off to save the girl. That's like saying Dooku defeated Yoda in AotC, or Mace in Obsession.
EDIT: For the record, Skywalker defeats Dooku in battle in the Clone Wars movie.
Actually, seeing Count Dooku literally sitting on his ass in the sand was the most ignominious sight I've ever seen in SW. Hilarious in a demeaning, "Why, Lee, WHY?!" kinda way, but still pathetic.
Originally posted by Faunus
Unless we watched different versions, no he didn't. He knocks him over, steals his bike thing, and runs off to save the girl. That's like saying Dooku defeated Yoda in AotC, or Mace in Obsession.
We watched the same one. He doesn't push Dooku down and pee on him. They're fighting and he overcomes him. Simple as that.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Untrue. Know why? "Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling." So says Cin Drallig. It is Form V's initial form, Shien, that's devoted primarily to blasters and defense.
Which doesn't matter, as the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat, Makashi, still remains what it is: the ultimate refinement of the art. Period.
So wait, you want to disregard Anakin using a melee move during the duel to cut Dooku's hands off in point b), yet, in order to keep his distance from Anakin, you cite where Dooku himself uses a melee move (reverse ankle sweep).
Wow. You are, of course, realizing, that you don't get around the fact, that Anakin didn't defeat Dooku with his superior lightsaber ability. That being said, you can throw irrelevant missdirections as here as long as you want. Doesn't change a thing.
That's nice and all, but how does that affect what I said at all about a Form II user beating a Form V user, or vice versa? Dooku beat a young and brash Anakin who hadn't mastered Djem So yet. Anakin has beaten Dooku. And Bane's beaten Farfalla. Those are the only real instances we know of a Form II user beating a Form V user, and the reverse.
Wow. So now you have established that a form II user can beat a form V user - and vice versa. Great. What's the point again? Oh wait.
Again, Dooku was one of the best duelists ever. Just because he can beat a normally skilled Djem So user doesn't mean Form II > Form V.
You are aware of the fact that the same is true the other way around. Just because Anakin can defeat Dooku, it doesn't matter that Form II > Form V. Thanks for repeating my argument.
And just because he knew all lightsaber forms but chose to use Form II doesn't make that the best. It just suited his style. Smooth and elegant. If that was the case, why didn't other proficient duelists decide to use the same form?
Ah stop it. What "proficient duellist" are you talking about now, kiddo? All Jedi and Sith are chosing the style that suits them best - their personalities, style and physical abilities. Obviously Anakin doesn't have the temper to use Makashi, while Kenobi thought that Soresu might be the best choice for a Jedi, as a "classical" style. Yet the only two other beings somewhere close to / above Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability are Mace and Yoda. And both of them are using saber forms which compensate certain disadvantages.
Do you have any other "proficient duelist" around who's styles are confirmed? And hell...where did anybody claim that because Dooku knew all forms and did chose Makashi, this must be the best? Did Mr. Strawman visit the thread when I was away?
Also, your point c) is completely your opinion and speculative.
Cool. So the RotS novel and the movie are just displaying my opinion? That's great.
@Gideon:
I'm curious how we split hairs for Anakin's defeat of Count Dooku as a brutish man physically overpowering a feeble octogenarian and yet Mace Windu's defeat of Palpatine -- delivered with a kick to the head -- is automatic signs of Windu's superiority in swordsmanship.
And who exactly claimed that Mace defeat of Sidious as it happened is a sign of his superior swordsmanship? Was it Mr. Strawman again who walked in and did the job? Yes?
I would urge you, Nai, in advance, to not initiate flaming. Otherwise it could end up like our last debacle.
Great. I would urge you, Gideon, to stop throwing strawmans at me.
And our last "debacle"? You mean the one where you did enter the thread with a ridiculous statement, then dodged the point multiple times after I called you out on it, just to ignore the original topic of the thread completely after that, attempting to strawman me to death while making a complete ass out of yourself ?
Yeah. I'm really scared something like that could happen again. I can already feel a cold shiver running down my spine. Brrr...*shudders with fear* 🙄
That was too predictable.
@Gideon:And who exactly claimed that Mace defeat of Sidious as it happened is a sign of his superior swordsmanship? Was it Mr. Strawman again who walked in and did the job? Yes?
I suppose so. Though, admittedly, I wasn't aware that 'Mr. Strawman' is one of your new aliases. Shouldn't be surprised, though. It's very fitting. Like House-lite. Honestly, haven't you learned your lesson? The last time you denied saying something, I caught you in a lie. 😉
Great. I would urge you, Gideon, to stop throwing strawmans at me.
Nai, would you like me to go out and find a statement of you saying that Windu is a superior swordsman than Sidious?
And our last "debacle"? You mean the one where you did enter the thread with a ridiculous statement, then dodged the point multiple times after I called you out on it, just to ignore the original topic of the thread completely after that, attempting to strawman me to death while making a complete ass out of yourself ?
If I recall correctly, I caught you in an embarrassing lie and, for some reason, you haven't responded. Don't worry. I'm sure it's because you've forgotten. I'll bump the thread. 😉
Yeah. I'm really scared something like that could happen again. I can already feel a cold shiver running down my spine. Brrr...*shudders with fear* 🙄
It wasn't intended to strike fear, though your fear of me is well documented, my friend. It was merely to spare the unnecessary flame war. But you don your Hugh Laurie T-shirt and hobble with your fake limp over to your computer and feel obligated to bring it on again. Don't worry. I'll play along.
Originally posted by Gideon
I suppose so. Though, admittedly, I wasn't aware that 'Mr. Strawman' is one of your new aliases. Shouldn't be surprised, though. It's very fitting. Like House-lite. Honestly, haven't you learned your lesson? The last time you denied saying something, I caught you in a lie. 😉
Urm. No, vermin. The last time you "caught me in a lie" it went like that:
1) You claiming, I said Dooku is more powerful and smarter than Sidious.
2) Me denying that.
3) You digging out a statement of myself, that says Dooku would defeat Sidious in an all out contest using his saber [notably not even closely matching what you've claimed that I should have said]
4) Me pointing that out.
5) You suddenly getting rilled up on a completely different topic. Now I should have "lied" because of saying that I, back then, should have claimed that Dooku "could" defeat Sidious when I was - also notably - just recapping the thread issue. Which, again, had nothing to do with your original claim.
Nai, would you like me to go out and find a statement of you saying that Windu is a superior swordsman than Sidious?
No, Gideon. I would like you to go out and find a statement of me saying that Windu is superior swordsman in comparison to Sidious, based on the fact, that he kicked the lightsaber out of the Sith Lords hand. Because that is what you claimed I should have stated.
If I recall correctly, I caught you in an embarrassing lie and, for some reason, you haven't responded. Don't worry. I'm sure it's because you've forgotten. I'll bump the thread. 😉
Oh nice. Reply incoming...
It wasn't intended to strike fear, though your fear of me is well documented, my friend. It was merely to spare the unnecessary flame war. But you don your Hugh Laurie T-shirt and hobble with your fake limp over to your computer and feel obligated to bring it on again. Don't worry. I'll play along.
Cute. Based on the fact that you found my reaction "too predictable", I have to suggest that you did, indeed, predict it, which means that you knew, before posting, that I will react like I did. Which, of course, means that you didn't want to "spare the unnecessary flame war" but instead looking forward to it and provoking it, because otherwise - wise man that you are - you wouldn't have posted. Gotcha, kid.
Excellent.
Edit: For the record, I didn't claim that you said that Windu is a superior swordsman because he defeated Sidious via a kick to the head. I am questioning your rationale because "LOLZ ANAKIN IS WEAKER BECUZ HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED DOOKU! HE IS NOT TEH BETTER SWORDSMAN!" and yet you're happy to believe that Windu > Sidious even though he didn't disarm our outmatch the Dark Lord with a lightsaber but via a physical assault as well. Explain the difference or concede the point.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you two should just bang each other and get it over with. The sexual tension is absurd.
I seriously have no problem with Nai. Just curious why he enjoys starting flame wars, lol. I do somewhat enjoy it, though. The verbal sparring. But unlike Faunus and I, Nai seems reluctant to go anywhere but that particular place.
Originally posted by Gideon
Excellent.Edit: For the record, I didn't claim that you said that Windu is a superior swordsman because he defeated Sidious via a kick to the head. I am questioning your rationale because "LOLZ ANAKIN IS WEAKER BECUZ HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED DOOKU! HE IS NOT TEH BETTER SWORDSMAN!" and yet you're happy to believe that Windu > Sidious even though he didn't disarm our outmatch the Dark Lord with a lightsaber but via a physical assault as well. Explain the difference or concede the point.
Wrong analogy, Gideon.
I refused the statement that Anakin is the superior swordsman [which means more skilled in fencing technique] in comparison to Dooku, which was based on the fact that he defeated him in combat - but not with his saber ability.
You're attempting a strawman again. Now you can also fetch me a quote of myself stating that Anakin must be weaker than Dooku because he - physically - overpowered them...Have fun with the search.
As for Windu: My judgement that he is the superior swordsman in comparison to Sidious isn't based on the fact that he defeated the Sith Lord. Nope. That idea is spawning from the fact that Mace started developing his own unique style apparently at the age of 13, after mastering multiple forms before that, which he had to do in order to accomplish the job. That aside from designing a saber style, that Yoda descriped as the "deadliest" fighting technique available for lightsaber combatants. One could also site the fact that Yoda thought only Mace Windu is equal to Dooku in lightsaber ability on equal ground - which is notable as the Count is a complete master of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat - and also notable because Yoda is apparently excluding himself in that statement, possible hinting that his own sheer bladework (without the force aided manouvering that makes him so powerful in lightsaber combat) is not on par with that of Windu or Dooku. And of course we have the fact, that Sidious, unlike Windu, who was going through three years of frontline experience, didn't touch a lightsaber for almost a decade.
And by the way, Gideon: What point is it I should concede? The one you've strawmanned into my statements?
I seriously have no problem with Nai. Just curious why he enjoys starting flame wars, lol. I do somewhat enjoy it, though. The verbal sparring. But unlike Faunus and I, Nai seems reluctant to go anywhere but that particular place.
The answer lies within your statement, young padawan. I enjoy the verbal sparring and since you also seem to enjoy it too, I simply take the opportunity to flame around a bit with somebody that doesn't take it serious and - at least I hope so - knows that I'm just having a little bit of fun here. And no - I'm not reluctant to go anywhere but that particular place. The point is that we've already been to pretty much all other places together and I don't see any reason to visit them again and again.
As for Windu: My judgement that he is the superior swordsman in comparison to Sidious isn't based on the fact that he defeated the Sith Lord. Nope. That idea is spawning from the fact that Mace started developing his own unique style apparently at the age of 13, after mastering multiple forms before that, which he had to do in order to accomplish the job. That aside from designing a saber style, that Yoda descriped as the "deadliest" fighting technique available for lightsaber combatants. One could also site the fact that Yoda thought only Mace Windu is equal to Dooku in lightsaber ability on equal ground - which is notable as the Count is a complete master of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat - and also notable because Yoda is apparently excluding himself in that statement, possible hinting that his own sheer bladework (without the force aided manouvering that makes him so powerful in lightsaber combat) is not on par with that of Windu or Dooku. And of course we have the fact, that Sidious, unlike Windu, who was going through three years of frontline experience, didn't touch a lightsaber for almost a decade.
Darth Sidious indoctrinated Darth Maul in Juyo, a lightsaber form that requires its masters to be "high end masters of multiple forms" -- something directly attributed to Mace Windu. The only thing that you have stated that is factually in Windu's favor is that he has had more experience with a lightsaber. Experience isn't the end all.
The answer lies within your statement, young padawan. I enjoy the verbal sparring and since you also seem to enjoy it too, I simply take the opportunity to flame around a bit with somebody that doesn't take it serious and - at least I hope so - knows that I'm just having a little bit of fun here. And no - I'm not reluctant to go anywhere but that particular place. The point is that we've already been to pretty much all other places together and I don't see any reason to visit them again and again.
You're quite a convincing sadist, Nai. But if you truly have no problem with it, then I don't intend to go there anymore unless we're really desperate for some verbal sparring. I'm not. I do it far too much as it is and it's becoming second nature.