IG Thanos vs Super Spectre from COIE

You're not even making a valid argument, you're trying to encompass your actual argument with your rhetoric. There is no canon connection between the Living Tribunal and the Spectre, you just brought it into the argument to create some similarity.

Furthermore, it's hypocritical to say "Just because character A hasn't preformed the feat doesn't mean that he can." It can be further translated into "Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean that it isn't true."

If you brought the statement above to court you would be ignored. Why? Because it's a logical fallacy.

What the f*ck are you talking about ? If you don't have any ideea what's discussed, don't get involved because you only embaress yourself.
We were talking about the fact that Spectre has more low feats than the Living Tribunal, and I explained why that occurs.

Again with the Living Tribunal? The only thing that supports this argument is a non-canon event which was further retconned. There are no canon links between the Living Tribunal and the Spectre.

If one character has lower feats than another character, simple logic confirms that the one with the lower feats is weaker.

Again, what the f*ck are you talking about ? What non-canon event ? What does that have to do with what we were talking about ?
And no, that is your logic.

If he truly were God, then why were Spectre about to punish all? Just before the host tells him to not. I mean God doesn't learn, he's all-knowing. Spectre learned. Therefore Spectre wasn't God.

As proven above, the host taught Spectre that all had the right to sin. Their punish would be in their afterlife. Again, God don't learn because he knows. Spectre learned therefore he wasn't God.

Spectre learned because that was the whole purpose of him merging with God. 'Confront and understand evil' was one of the main-themes of the Spectre run, and this was the ultimate 'experience'.
Again, don't talk about things you have no clue about.

But then again, the Presence isn't omnipotent so perhaps Spectre was "God".
The Presence omnipotence was disproved in the Lucifer series. Even in the "Infinity crisis", "Spectre had more power than his maker could even dream of".

I completly destroyed your Presence disrespect thread.
You don't even have a goddamn clue about what series or statements you are talking about, since what you are trying to mention didn't happen in Infinite Crisis, and nothing about Spectre having more power than the Presence was mentioned.

Originally posted by iceman24567
So the Ig can actually equal the Am?

Originally posted by Philosophía
Considering that unlike the Living Tribunal, it is the host (Corrigan, Hal) and its perceptions of the power that guides the Spectre thus low showings not necessarily being a representation of his true power, not to mention many more appearances in comics on Spectre's behalf in comics compared to the Living Tribunal, it is pretty obvious that the Spectre would have more 'low showings' throughout history.
How exactly has Living Tribunal jobbed to THOTU ? Are you suggesting that Living Tribunal is more powerfull than Thanos w/THOTU but lost due to jobbing ? I sincerily hope not 🙂
Eh ? That feat is in no way a representation of Spectre's power since he didn't do it under his own power, but instead was offered to see how it truly is to be 'God'. People like to throw this around for the Spectre ? Not really, and why would they since this isn't a representation of Spectre's 'normal' levels of power ? It is a 'different' version of Spectre altogether when it comes to powerlevel since he became 'God'. And comparing what Spectre became to what Living Tribunal transformed Silver Surfer into is laughable to say the least ..

Originally posted by Philosophía
I completly destroyed your Presence disrespect thread.
You don't even have a goddamn clue about what series or statements you are talking about, since what you are trying to mention didn't happen in Infinite Crisis, and nothing about Spectre having more power than the Presence was mentioned.

Furthermore, the purpose of a argument is not to win, it's to learn. But your narrow comprehension seems unable to grasp that. You're acting like a child, constantly whining until you get your way, until you "win".

Lets go through the facts, and if you can disprove them do so directly--my sources are in the thread in my signature. And I don't want random scans thrown around--just the ones with content.

1. Yahweh confirmed that there were external forces that shaped him. Which contradict the fact of him being eternal (ever existing)--if you were shaped then you didn't exist at some point. Which mean that he isn't omnipresent--he is not within those forces as they are external to him.

What you did here was claiming that the forces that shaped him was the Beast and the Presence. Yet you claimed in the second argument that the Presence and the Beast did not merge, they just accepted co-existence. Which contradict the idea of anything being shaped in the first place. To top it of, you can't even prove that your hypothesis is right. It's simply farfetched speculation, which you justify in your own mind so that you think you've "won" the argument.

2. Yahweh wasn't omniscient. Lucifer was outside of his perception that's why he found him interesting. You aren't omniscient if something, at any time is outside of your perception.

You never really went tête à tête with that argument, simply avoided it.

3. Yahweh wasn't omnipotent. He directly said that he was not able to shape himself--whether or not this is symbolical is irrelevant. If there's something you can't do you're not omnipotent, period.

And true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence go hand in hand. That's why they're called the three attributes of God. If you omniscient you'll know how a infinite ways to get omnipotent by just thinking.
Because if the question "Do you know how to become omnipotent with a thought?" was asked, the answer would be yes.

"If you have all power you have no power." You'll need your time to melt that I'm sure.

Now if you're going to counter this argument do it by the following rules.

1. Prove that Yahweh was lying when he said that there were forces external to him that shaped him.

2. Prove that Yahweh was lying when he said that Lucifer worked outside of his plan.

3. Prove that Yahweh was lying when he said that he needed Lucifer's help to shape him.

Originally posted by Astner
No, you did not disprove anything, you distorted my position in order for you to justify your argument in your own little mind. Airlegend even commented on that and refuted your argument.

Furthermore, the purpose of a argument is not to win, it's to learn. But your narrow comprehension seems unable to grasp that. You're acting like a child, constantly whining until you get your way, until you "win".

Lets go through the facts, and if you can disprove them do so directly--my sources are in the thread in my signature. And I don't want random scans thrown around--just the ones with content.

1. Yahweh confirmed that there were external forces that shaped him. Which contradict the fact of him being eternal (ever existing)--if you were shaped then you didn't exist at some point. Which mean that he isn't omnipresent--he is not within those forces as they are external to him.

What you did here was claiming that the forces that shaped him was the Beast and the Presence. Yet you claimed in the second argument that the Presence and the Beast did not merge, they just accepted co-existence. Which contradict the idea of anything being shaped in the first place. To top it of, you can't even prove that your hypothesis is right. It's simply farfetched speculation, which you justify in your own mind so that you think you've "won" the argument.

2. Yahweh wasn't omniscient. Lucifer was outside of his perception that's why he found him interesting. You aren't omniscient if something, at any time is outside of your perception.

You never really went tête à tête with that argument, simply avoided it.

3. Yahweh wasn't omnipotent. He directly said that he was not able to shape himself--whether or not this is symbolical is irrelevant. If there's something you can't do you're not omnipotent, period.

And true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence go hand in hand. That's why they're called the three attributes of God. If you omniscient you'll know how a infinite ways to get omnipotent by just thinking.
Because if the question "Do you know how to become omnipotent with a thought?" was asked, the answer would be yes.

"If you have all power you have no power." You'll need your time to melt that I'm sure.

Now if you're going to counter this argument do it by the following rules.

1. Prove that there were no forces shaping Yahweh.

2. Prove that Yahweh was lying when he said that Lucifer worked outside of his plan.

3. Prove that Yahweh was lying when he said that he needed Lucifer's help to shape him.

You know Erik is right still even after all of this?? 😂 YHWH = The Presence, and I'll say it again, no they did not merge and shape into YHWH. We all have seen the scans and your spin on things again. I'll show some scans here later today that will be sufficient!

Originally posted by Galan007
spectre ftw. on a sidenote, thanos never preformed anything > a universal feat, whilst in possession of the IG.

Explain to me why this matters?

Originally posted by iceman24567
Spectre wins easily.

Originally posted by Board Walker
The IG has never shown to destroy nearly the entire omniverse.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Considering that unlike the Living Tribunal, it is the host (Corrigan, Hal) and its perceptions of the power that guides the Spectre thus low showings not necessarily being a representation of his true power, not to mention many more appearances in comics on Spectre's behalf in comics compared to the Living Tribunal, it is pretty obvious that the Spectre would have more 'low showings' throughout history.
How exactly has Living Tribunal jobbed to THOTU ? Are you suggesting that Living Tribunal is more powerfull than Thanos w/THOTU but lost due to jobbing ? I sincerily hope not 🙂
Eh ? That feat is in no way a representation of Spectre's power since he didn't do it under his own power, but instead was offered to see how it truly is to be 'God'. People like to throw this around for the Spectre ? Not really, and why would they since this isn't a representation of Spectre's 'normal' levels of power ? It is a 'different' version of Spectre altogether when it comes to powerlevel since he became 'God'. And comparing what Spectre became to what Living Tribunal transformed Silver Surfer into is laughable to say the least ..

Also when Spectre saw what is what like to become god he couldnt handle it. The sheer weight of it would have driven him to madness. The way I see the Spectre is very powerful but the Lt is on a whole other level. The Spectre runs around punishing individual sinners while Lt judges the multiverse.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again does it matter whether or not he can destroy the multiverse with regards to this battle?

Explain to me why this matters?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again does it matter whether or not he can destroy the multiverse with regards to this battle?

Explain to me why this matters?

It doesn't.

The "omniversal > multiversal > universal" truism often taken for granted in these battle of omnipotents isn't particularly sound. The terms themselves don't deal in scale so much as scope. A character can have influence in every universe, but it doesn't preclude him from being simply overpowered by a being with absolute power in a single universe.

If I have the power to mind-control a single butterfly in every universe simultaneously, then by definition my power is omniversal. I'd still get my teeth kicked in by Spider-Man, let alone an Infinity Gauntlet wielder.

Originally posted by KK the Great
It doesn't.

The "omniversal > multiversal > universal" truism often taken for granted in these battle of omnipotents isn't particularly sound. The terms themselves don't deal in scale so much as scope. A character can have influence in every universe, but it doesn't preclude him from being simply overpowered by a being with absolute power in a single universe.

If I have the power to mind-control a single butterfly in every universe simultaneously, then by definition my power is omniversal. I'd still get my teeth kicked in by Spider-Man, let alone an Infinity Gauntlet wielder.

I wanted someone to back up this multiversal vs universal with some sort of an argument because on here posters have been getting free passes soon as they start bringing up multiversal and what not.

Okay now, so let me get this straight. First, this Astner guy posts some random irrelevant stuff about my discussion with with OneDumbGo. Then, after that, he makes the 'God is not Omnipotent anyway', which is totally off-topic, trying to deviate the discussion, despite the fact that I have completly destroyed every one of his arguments once before regarding this subject, while at the same time ignoring the other points about him being totally off-the point in regards to what I said to OneDumbGo.

Okay, so what do we have up until now ? Baiting me to answer the 'God is not Omnipotent', trolling by posting something irrelevant and then when I point that out, you ignore it and .. try to revive the old, closed subject in which you were already proven wrong, deviating the thread.

Oh good 🙂

Reported.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's quaint how people like to ignore Spectre's majority showings by using his then-hosts as an excuse for his limitations and then when he is hostless and gets turned into Eclipso's b1tch, it's because he had no host. How convenient. Anyway, yes, one of the most oft thrown around scans when people discuss Spectre at FP or backed by the Presence is that silly "one with the universe" scan. You display that scan and the LT/Silver Surfer scan side-by-side and they're pretty much the same. Go ahead.

I don't really care if you like it or not, so this complaining doesn't help.
And getting 'turned into Eclipso's b*tch' had nothing to do with power, only with Spectre's instability and vulnerability due to missing a host.
I already explained to you why that instance has nothing to do with normal Spectre's power, so there's no point in pursuing this point.
Silver Surfer literally became 'God', contained all of creation inside of him, which was destroyed and reborn?

^ Well, no. What you describe is more akin to what Thanos achieved with the Infinity Gauntlet and the Heart of the Universe. Surfer simply expanded to encompass the entire universe for a moment of godhood and smiled a big ole "I just smoked a joint and ate kentucky fried chicken" grin.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Surfer simply expanded to encompass the entire universe for a moment of godhood and smiled a big ole "I just smoked a joint and ate kentucky fried chicken" grin.

I lol'ed.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Okay now, so let me get this straight. First, this Astner guy posts some random irrelevant stuff about my discussion with with OneDumbGo. Then, after that, he makes the 'God is not Omnipotent anyway', which is totally off-topic, trying to deviate the discussion, despite the fact that I have completly destroyed every one of his arguments once before regarding this subject, while at the same time ignoring the other points about him being totally off-the point in regards to what I said to OneDumbGo.

Now this ignorant respect less behavior is not worth even posting.

Again, you distort my position because you're unable to defeat it. So you summarize my argument in an altered way in hope of that people will read what you've said I wrote, instead of actually reading what I wrote.

Most intellectual members will however spend the three minutes it takes to read my reply. And it is to those members you should pay attention.

An example is "God is not omnipotent." I never said or hinted that. As a rational thinking debater I tend to keep irrelevant issues out of the topic. The monotheistic God of Abraham is not a part of the argument. Now what I said was that Yahweh, referring to the supreme deity of DC comics, wasn't omnipotent and I explained my position and reflected with sources in the link of my signature.

Another thing that's interesting is that you said you did in fact defeat my position--when I clearly in my reply stated that you never did. If you were right this would be an act of laziness "Why should I post the same thing twice?" Let me explain to you why. Because all it takes is the search function followed by the quote function--and could take less than a minute.

As stated above, you're ignoring my position. You are committing an illogical fallacy.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Okay, so what do we have up until now ? Baiting me to answer the 'God is not Omnipotent', trolling by posting something irrelevant and then when I point that out, you ignore it and .. try to revive the old, closed subject in which you were already proven wrong, deviating the thread.

You however reject this chance and act as if you have proven it. You are not arguing. You have not proven your position to be correct.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Oh good 🙂

Reported.

I expected more from your next reply when I made that post.

Originally posted by kevdude
You know Erik is right still even after all of this?? 😂 YHWH = The Presence, and I'll say it again, no they did not merge and shape into YHWH.

Originally posted by kevdude
We all have seen the scans and your spin on things again. I'll show some scans here later today that will be sufficient!

wait. Since when did the presence and YWH become one and the same? Given that there are two different mikey's, and two different lucifers( both of whom are mirrors of eachother), elaine is God of vertigo, and there is still a hell in the DCU, then how can The presence and YWH be the same?

Originally posted by Astner
You clearly lack the knowledge of how to debate properly.

Now this ignorant respect less behavior is not worth even posting.

If I were a moderator I'd ban, or suspend you on the spot.

Reported again. 🙂

Originally posted by Philosophía
Reported again. 🙂

You are nonchalant in order to appear aware to other members. The purpose is to annoy me, baiting in other words. No, it's spam and doesn't have any contribution to the topic at hand.

If you find a reply which contains information which violates the rules you are suppose to report it in order for moderators to find it, analyze it and decide what is going to happen to the member. You are not suppose to follow your report with a spam reply.

And the burden of proof of the actual debate is still upon you.

Let me reiterate.

1. Did Yahweh lie when he confirmed that there were sources external to him that shaped him? And if so, what are your evidence for this.

2. Did Yahweh lie when he confirmed that Lucifer worked outside of his plan, outside of his perception? And if so, what are your evidence for this.

3. Did Yahweh lie when he confirmed that he was unable to shape himself? And if so what are your evidence for this.

Unless your next reply counters these three questions I'm going to take it as a concession.

Ya'll should probably take this Yahweh = Presence discussion elsewhere. Maybe a Yahweh vs. Presence thread. The discussion looks interesting, but is ultimately completely off-topic. [/endactinglikeamod]

Actually it is relevant to the topic because Spectre had the power to see what his master (the Presence) was unable to see when he fought the Anti-monitor.