Team SOLDIER vs Team Ansatsuken

Originally posted by DarkC

A ridiculous example, considering a simple drawing is not only non-canon, it has no credibility, no references, no insider information. Why even bring that up?

Then why do you see people bringing up non-canon materia in other debates? Do you see people instantly refuting it and disregarding it altogether? No. They’re unlegitimate for usage as proof, but not for discussion and consideration.

Yes, and I know they are – yet I used them anyway. Why?

Because they’re the only visual examples at ALL – and since they in turn resemble nothing like the Shungokusatsu we’ve known in gameplay, I thought this was rather interesting, so I posted them anyway, adding that they were non-canon because I was not trying to use them as my references of proof – which you seem to have missed out on, repeatedly.

I’m defending my use of non-canon material, not as proof, just the use of it itself, which I have successfully done.
I’m trying to prove that Shungokusatsu’s startup is instant, which I have successfully done.

You, on the other hand, are repeatedly ranting on about how non-canon references should not be used to prove something (When I’m actually not, that’s why I mentioned that they were non-canon in the first place). You’re trying to prove something that’s not only in leftfield and way out of context from what I’ve said earlier, but what is common sense anyway….it’s almost entertaining to see you going on despite the fact that I have way earlier asserted why I was using it if I knew it was non-canon.
Touché.

I’m not using it as proof – hence, read my posts properly, for once. Please.

I just did – see below.

In terms of motif, not scale – I addressed this earlier.

Yes, and we’ve been over this – it’s an ambiguity, which I only used because Sado22 (who, by the way, hates Gouki with a passion) brought it up as a fact.

I can see that you’re quite obsessed with this now, considering that you have, out of nowhere, brought up previously addressed points that were already resolved (?), in an attempt to lame me at a point in the debate where they are technically unnecessary in relevance to the content we’re discussing now.

You’ve been highly unproductive thus far – most of your arguments are essentially just substitutes. Aside from Sephiroth’s movement speed, you’ve brought nothing to the table aside from attempts to counter what I say, and bringing nothing new to the table.

Because I was trying to find one – I seem to remember reading it from Tiamat earlier, but apparently not:

There you have it, I apparently did not remember correctly –but it’s moot, really, considering the evidence I provided below.

So basically you have no proof to claim that Gouken actually defeated Gouki, then Gouki got him with a shungokusatsu after he was defeated?

Once again, your obsession with replying seems to cloud your judgement.

I wasn’t using them as ‘proof’, otherwise I wouldn’t have mentioned that they’re non-canon in the first place (also, “for the sake of argument”) – that kind of would have defeated the purpose of my argument, don’t you think? Common sense, nothing like it.

Again, those were the only examples I could find, I decided to post them anyway – are you going to move on?

Congratulations – you have just proved that the Shungokusatsu’s final killing blow (“one’s own life would be cut off”), according to Goutetsu (Not Gouketsu), is instant, and that it’s extremely suffering for the victim. After all, the final blow ends in the very worst hell of them all, so I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

This doesn’t disprove anything I just said, not even remotely – so I’m not entirely sure why you brought it up at all; unless you're suggesting that the victim dies before the final hell (which is folly).

Shungokusatsu, according to the official statements, the course of the move still takes several hours as you can see from the passage I just posted.

Shungokusatsu, according to the official statements, drags their victim through all of the hells where demons rapidly beat up on the victim – ending up in the final, most eternal and hottest hell, where the victim is finally killed.
--
"Who exists that is stronger" now became the wish, and this request would be answered with the spraying of blood incited by training.

The forbidden move was done. He selected Master Goutetsu as his opponent. As there was about to be a fight to the death, the opponent had no deficiencies.

".....arm yourself now!!"

The spirit kept secretly inside exploded, the cells of Gouki's entire body rose in sound with a resonating sensation...several hours later, Gouki's entire body in blood returned a scarlet hue, as he moved and saw the master's corpse.

Hadou's ultimate move "shungokusatsu," armed with "satsui no hadou" that
struck the master, was complete.

From then on, Gouki walked the long "path of carnage's" first walk.

--

Undeniable proof, no loopholes.

Umm i don't know if you've read what i said incorrectly or you're simply not understanding it but i'll try to explain it to you easier

1)The name Shungokusatsu (Created by the ancestors) Instant Hell Murder

DESCRIPTION OF THE ATTACK:

Master Goutetsu spoke of a forbidden technique, "shungokusatsu." With this move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity. That is, control utilized by "satsui no hadou", was said to run wildly until that life's very end.
Gouki, pronouncing all ancestors "fools" for sealing this "shungokusatsu," selected his path to break that ban on his own.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moment

Moment: an indefinitely short period of time; instant

So if you think about it, THE ANCESTORS who created the name SHUNGOKUSATSU described it as (when it lands) "one's own life would be cut off in a [b]moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity."[/b]

Right there you have proof that the name Instant Hell Murder, the INSTANT in the name refers to (when it lands) one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) .

Apparently they were wrong, because they claimed that they would die in a MOMENT (instant), apparently they were wrong about the description and wrong about the name.

Right there you have proof that the ancestors THOUGHT once it lands the person would die in a moment.

Thus your argument fails.

Well once Gouki does the SGS, the screen turns black, then the opponent is dead. Only one person has ever survived it, Gen, and that was due to a special circumstance.

Yeah hes trying to prove that the "pre-grab" is instananeous, and that the "instant" in Instant Hell Murder is meant for the pre-grab, and i'm saying that the instant in instant hell murder, is meant for ONCE its landed its instant hell, hence "one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity."

The victim will be dead in a mere moment.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Non-canon is NON-CANON, it doesn't matter where its from, if its non-canon, its infact, NON-CANON, unless you think Gouki can really blow up a meteor twice the size of earth.

Judging from what I’ve said anyways in relation to Shungokusatsu, in addition to Dark-Jaxx’s interjection, this point of yours….it’s entirely moot now

Originally posted by Terryc250
Because well.. YOU DON'T, you don't see people bringing up non-canon materia in Clouds debate or Sephiroths debates, UNLESS ITS STATED BY THE CREATOR that Cloud gets all materia or whatever.

Once again, this is fail-safe proof that your bias is heavily clouding your judgement right now.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sorry, non-canon things hold no weight, so its pointless.

Instead of addressing those points, you continuously seem content in your ignorance to say “It’s non canon, it’s not proof” over and over again, when this entire time you fail to realize it was not for the purposes of proof, judging from the way I mentioned that they were non-canon (well, one of them now anyway, lol) .

It’s interesting, but remarkably pestering, to see you continue to rave on about it after I’ve more or less agreed with you.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Well first of all you don't even see them being performed so you can't say it resembles nothing like what we've known in gameplay

For the CvS2 ending, you don’t actually see it being performed, I’ll give you that, but the circumstances highly suggest a fast or instantaneous startup.

Originally posted by Terryc250
again we're debating canon Gouki, not non-canon Gouki, so whatever that incarnation of non-canon Gouki was able to do, whether its blow up a meteor twice the size of earth(from a non-canon comic or do 30 instantaneous mech shungokusatsu(non-canon mech gouki from Marvel vs Capcom) it doesnt matter.

Once, again…keep up.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Non-canon Gouki can do whatever he wants, Real Gouki is what matters. And no, you have not successfully proven anything.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Again, i don't care what non-canon Gouki from a game outside of Street Fighter is able to do, honestly stop bringing it up, i asked you for PROOF of STREET FIGHTER GOUKI, not some non-canon junk.
Read my original post properly, i asked for PROOF, proof as in Street Fighter Gouki, proof as in canon material, understand?

I know what you said in your original post, that’s why I made sure to say that it was non-canon. Get over it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes i will, and i guarantee you its not "proof"

I listed the passage, in its entire content, which is undeniable proof that Shungokusatsu takes hours to complete. You tried to counter it with an earlier passage – which reflects Shungokusatsu’s nature (that’s why I agreed with you), not its technicalities, and in no way refutes mine. I even go so far as to say it adds to what I said earlier, so thanks for that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No you said "exact same effort" which is wrong, Gouki was clearly giving atleast 50% of his effort, while Sephiroth was far below that.

Did you not read what I just said? Yes, they were giving the exact same sort of effort they would have given their respective opponents, but in terms of mentality and psychological motives, not actually physical effort.

Pay attention.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its as ambiguous as having scene 1 of Gouki in America and then him teleport offscreen and then scene 2 saying "a week later" then having him in Japan, then claiming "its possible that Gouki teleported to Japan from America" its possible yes, but its unlikely since he's never done anything like that before.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Obsessed with it? This is the first time i brought it up after proving you wrong. I'm just simply pointing out where you have failed in this debate.

I’m almost certain that anyone who reads our debate will agree with me that you’re taking this far too seriously. This is supposed to be a proper debate, and out of nowhere you come out with these points that have already been gone over with several times and far earlier, at a juncture where what I am discussing has nothing to do with them(?).

I’ve been incorrect, and I can easily admit to it – I even just did it in my previous post, haha. You do not seem to possess the same courtesy, at all.

Originally posted by Terryc250
This entire debate we're having is attempting at getting PROOF out of your claims, it has nothing to do with me, or any other character.

I bring it up because I see that you’re very obviously frustrated, enough to the point where you’re completely oblivious to certain points where I more or less agreed with you, and continue to rant on and on about it endlessly and for no reason at all.

It annoys me as well, because I wish to have a proper debate, and you ignoring constantly what I say simply because of your obsession to reply is not helping that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. You just gave me a description of of one of their previous fights not the one where Gouki gets him with shungokusatsu (which is what i asked for)

Originally posted by Terryc250
So basically you have no proof to claim that Gouken actually defeated Gouki, then Gouki got him with a shungokusatsu after he was defeated?

Considering the evidence below, it’s quite moot by now regardless.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Well i asked for "proof" (if you've read properly) so if you don't mind, don't post nonsense, its a waste of both our times, the Gouki from Capcom vs games is not the actual Gouki

Earlier on, Sado22 countered me using Tenma Gou Zankuukou by saying that it originated in the MvC series. Now, according to the SF4 trailer it is no longer a non-canon move. Judging from that fact, Gouki from the Capcom vs games IS Gouki…..just thrust into a remarkably stupid and faulty plot.

You’re trying to pretend that he’s a completely different person, which is…funny, for lack of a better term.

Originally posted by Terryc250
just as Mech Gouki from Marvel vs Capcom is not the real Gouki

Originally posted by Terryc250
just as Kingdom Hearts Sephiroth is not the real FF7 Sephiroth, so basically posting something from another character is meaningless to me.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm i don't know if you've read what i said incorrectly or you're simply not understanding it but i'll try to explain it to you easier

Originally posted by Terryc250
Right there you have proof that the name Instant Hell Murder, the INSTANT in the name refers to (when it lands) one's own life would be cut off in a [b]moment (INSTANT) .[/b]

” Master Goutetsu spoke of a forbidden technique, "shungokusatsu." With this move (DarkC – Not “when it lands”), it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity. That is, control utilized by "satsui no hadou", was said to run wildly until that life's very end.”

It’s describing what it’s like when the victim finally dies after he’s dragged through the sixteen hells. Now, your argument is faulty because it’s very undeniably clear that he’s talking about what the victim experiences that when he dies, right? And it’s logical to have the last ONE hell to have an outstanding amount of suffering to the others.

What happens during the Shungokusatsu is that the user and victim are held by the "other side" as AAC labels it, jigoku (literally earth prison) or hell in allegedly the following common numbering tradition viewed by Mahayana Buddhism: 16 hells, 8 cold and 8 hot (before the move was fully established beginning in the Zero series, a simpler classification of just the 8 hot), SGS victims taking 15 hits and dying in the final hot"traditionally seemingly eternal" hell

You know how else I know? Because he used the term “unparalleled”.

So far you have done absolutely nothing in relation to the segment I posted to prove that it is wrong (other than an entirely baseless claim that “apparently they were wrong”, simply choosing to cut off the above part of the context to suit your own needs.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Apparently they were wrong, because they claimed that they would die in a MOMENT (instant), apparently they were wrong about the description and wrong about the name.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Right there you have proof that the ancestors THOUGHT once it lands the person would die in a moment.
Thus your argument fails.

It simply described the final killing blow of Shungokusatsu (which ended up in the final worst, hot hell), which would explain the “unparalleled intensity” part.

It proves absolutely nothing, other than when the victim actually dies it’s quite horrible and painful from the sounds of it.

I think it’s about time I closed this debate off. Here’s the entire passage:

--
Gouki from SFZ2

Shungokusatsu

Master Goutetsu spoke of a forbidden technique, "shungokusatsu." With
that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment
of unparalleled intensity. That is, control utilized by "satsui no hadou", was said to run wildly until that life's very end. Gouki, pronouncing all ancestors "fools" for sealing this "shungokusatsu", selected his path to break that ban on his own.

"To become fighters, true warriors of the fist must possess all power
that can be utilized. Those who ban techniques cling to life in stinginess,
which this warrior of the fist does not!"

Gouki filled himself with confidence. Having controlled the ancestors'
"satsui no hadou", the "shungokusatsu" was utilized.

But Gouki's own self changed. Usually when collecting "satsui no hadou", to acquire manipulation of it many years past became a piling heavy burden. "Who exists that is stronger" now became the wish, and this request would be answered with the spraying of blood incited by training.

The forbidden move was done. He selected Master Goutetsu as his opponent. As there was about to be a fight to the death, the opponent had no deficiencies.

".....arm yourself now!!" The spirit kept secretly inside exploded, the
cells of Gouki's entire body rose in sound with a resonating sensation...several hours later, Gouki's entire body in blood returned a scarlet hue, as he moved and saw the master's corpse.

Hadou's ultimate move "shungokusatsu," armed with "satsui no hadou" that
struck the master, was complete.

From then on, Gouki walked the long "path of carnage's" first walk.

--

So we have my part of the passage, which I left completely unaltered and is undeniable proof that the Shungokusatsu takes hours to complete. To deny clear and specified evidence right out in the open is just folly, it’s pointless to even try, so don't. If you want to try and refute this, you have 3 solid facts to contend with:

A.) Gouki starts up the Shungokusatsu.
B.) Several hours later, he reappears bathed in blood alongside his master's corpse.
C.) It has been confirmed by Capcom that Goutetsu was killed by Shungokusatsu.

You can't refute any of those. At this point you're resorting to all sorts of tertiary evidence.

Your part of the passage in the beginning, you altered for your own purposes and took out of its context, adding your own title to it in addition to it being generally unspecific in the first place.

Unless you’re about to claim that the above passage completely contradicts that which is just below it, I will claim a victory here.

Originally posted by DarkC
You’re still ranting needlessly. Yes, non-canon is non-canon….and so?

Judging from what I’ve said anyways in relation to Shungokusatsu, in addition to Dark-Jaxx’s interjection, this point of yours….it’s entirely moot now

I wasn’t referring to the FF debates, at all, actually…the Tekken ones and SF ones, to be precise. If you had read what I said in the Pyron vs Sephiroth thread (and in the “How to make the VG vs forums a better place”), I was actually arguing for a source like the Advent Children movie to be acceptable in canon, for this forum’s purposes.

Once again, this is fail-safe proof that your bias is heavily clouding your judgement right now.

The mainstream Gouki we are debating is the STREET FIGHTER Gouki, the other non-canon Gouki's are meaningless, whatever they have done hold no weight in this debate.

Instead of addressing those points, you continuously seem content in your ignorance to say “It’s non canon, it’s not proof” over and over again, when this entire time you fail to realize it was not for the purposes of proof, judging from the way I mentioned that they were non-canon (well, one of them now anyway, lol) .

For the UDON comic (that has now, thanks to DJ been established to be canon in terms of personality and normal moves) yes, you do see it being performed.

Capcom lets alot of anime/comics use their characters, each and every one of them tells a different story, and their abilities range totally different from dodging bullets, to getting killed by bullets, to cracking meteors twice the size of earth.

Unless you can prove that all of the abilities are canon, they are non-canon.

For the CvS2 ending, you don’t actually see it being performed, I’ll give you that, but the circumstances highly suggest a fast or instantaneous startup.

I wasn’t addressing those moves, and I already conceded anything in MvC (as you can see earlier) as ridiculous.

Once, again…keep up.

Yes, I have, and I know because you simply tried to find a wormhole through my argument. It still stands, Shungokusatsu takes hours to complete.

Stop ranting.

I know what you said in your original post, that’s why I made sure to say that it was non-canon. Get over it.

Actually, it is.

I listed the passage, in its entire content, which is undeniable proof that Shungokusatsu takes hours to complete. You tried to counter it with an earlier passage – which reflects Shungokusatsu’s nature (that’s why I agreed with you), not its technicalities, and in no way refutes mine. I even go so far as to say it adds to what I said earlier, so thanks for that.

Not in terms of scale, once again.

Did you not read what I just said? Yes, they were giving the exact same sort of effort they would have given their respective opponents, but in terms of mentality and psychological motives, not actually physical effort.

Pay attention.

That only means ONE thing, that means if Sephiroth was giving 25% effort on Cloud, Gouki was giving 25% on Ryu

That right there is what "EXACT SAME EFFORT" means.. Effort and Motives are totally different things, if you said "Gouki was aiming for the same motive as Sephiroth" it would be different but thats not what you said, you said they were giving the exact same effort

Now stop giving excuses, and admit you were wrong.

Ambiguous is ambiguous, something cannot be more “more” ambiguous than the other, it defies reasoning. It’s an objective term, so use it properly, and in the proper context.

No, your obsession with continuing to reply, just for the sake of replying. Read my posts.

The point is, its possible for Gouki to teleport like that but its more UNLIKELY because he's never ever done that or anything like that before.

I’m almost certain that anyone who reads our debate will agree with me that you’re taking this far too seriously. This is supposed to be a proper debate, and out of nowhere you come out with these points that have already been gone over with several times and far earlier, at a juncture where what I am discussing has nothing to do with them(?).

I’ve been incorrect, and I can easily admit to it – I even just did it in my previous post, haha. You do not seem to possess the same courtesy, at all.

You see, if you had not let your bias cloud your judgement, I would never have brought it up in the first place.

I bring it up because I see that you’re very obviously frustrated, enough to the point where you’re completely oblivious to certain points where I more or less agreed with you, and continue to rant on and on about it endlessly and for no reason at all.

It annoys me as well, because I wish to have a proper debate, and you ignoring constantly what I say simply because of your obsession to reply is not helping that.

Yes – the Tiamat’s guide listed their 2nd fight as “unclear”, other than the fact that Gouki won.

Again, not in terms of plot.

Earlier on, Sado22 countered me using Tenma Gou Zankuukou by saying that it originated in the MvC series. Now, according to the SF4 trailer it is no longer a non-canon move. Judging from that fact, Gouki from the Capcom vs games IS Gouki…..just thrust into a remarkably stupid and faulty plot.

You’re trying to pretend that he’s a completely different person, which is…funny, for lack of a better term.

And no its not the same Gouki, just as Galactus in MvC isn't the same Galactus(unless you think a guy who can warp entire galaxies and create planet busting heralds with a fraction of his power is really battling SF characters)

Gouki/Mech Gouki are entirely different incarnations of the actual SF Gouki.

His appearance in KH was more or less a joke – considering that an cartoon entity like Mickey Mouse was able to beat him, haha.

Once ‘what’ lands? Did it say that when Shungokusatsu lands? Did it say that it would take one blow? No, again this is simply made up on your part, as is your ridiculous use of the “DESCRIPTION OF THE MOVE” tag in an attempt to solidify your point.

It simply described the final killing blow of Shungokusatsu (which ended up in the final worst, hot hell), which would explain the “unparalleled intensity” part.

It proves absolutely nothing, other than when the victim actually dies it’s quite horrible and painful from the sounds of it.

I think it’s about time I closed this debate off. Here’s the entire passage:

--
Gouki from SFZ2

Shungokusatsu

Master Goutetsu spoke of a forbidden technique, "shungokusatsu." With
that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment
of unparalleled intensity. That is, control utilized by "satsui no hadou", was said to run wildly until that life's very end. Gouki, pronouncing all ancestors "fools" for sealing this "shungokusatsu", selected his path to break that ban on his own.

"To become fighters, true warriors of the fist must possess all power
that can be utilized. Those who ban techniques cling to life in stinginess,
which this warrior of the fist does not!"

Gouki filled himself with confidence. Having controlled the ancestors'
"satsui no hadou", the "shungokusatsu" was utilized.

But Gouki's own self changed. Usually when collecting "satsui no hadou", to acquire manipulation of it many years past became a piling heavy burden. "Who exists that is stronger" now became the wish, and this request would be answered with the spraying of blood incited by training.

The forbidden move was done. He selected Master Goutetsu as his opponent. As there was about to be a fight to the death, the opponent had no deficiencies.

".....arm yourself now!!" The spirit kept secretly inside exploded, the
cells of Gouki's entire body rose in sound with a resonating sensation...several hours later, Gouki's entire body in blood returned a scarlet hue, as he moved and saw the master's corpse.

Hadou's ultimate move "shungokusatsu," armed with "satsui no hadou" that
struck the master, was complete.

From then on, Gouki walked the long "path of carnage's" first walk.

--

So we have my part of the passage, which I left completely unaltered and is undeniable proof that the Shungokusatsu takes hours to complete. To deny clear and specified evidence right out in the open is just folly, it’s pointless to even try, so don't. If you want to try and refute this, you have 3 solid facts to contend with:

A.) Gouki starts up the Shungokusatsu.
B.) Several hours later, he reappears bathed in blood alongside his master's corpse.
C.) It has been confirmed by Capcom that Goutetsu was killed by Shungokusatsu.

You can't refute any of those. At this point you're resorting to all sorts of tertiary evidence.

Your part of the passage in the beginning, you altered for your own purposes and took out of its context, adding your own title to it in addition to it being generally unspecific in the first place.

Unless you’re about to claim that the above passage completely contradicts that which is just below it, I will claim a victory here.

Wow ok, listen, I know that when shungokustasu lands it takes hours to complete

But listen, read and try to comprehend this:

The ancestors who gave the name "Shungokusatsu" (Instant Hell Murder) DESCRIBED the move as "one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity"

The ancestors said it themselves that it would take a mere moment for ones life to be cut off (the person would be dead in an instant)

So the fact is, the ancestors were WRONG, the same ancestors who NAMED it shungokusatsu, no its not describing one of the hells, its describing the attack itself that is blantaly obvious.
Hence "With this move" and not "The last hell"

Originally posted by Terryc250
Udon comics are non-canon, the storyline, abilities, what the characters do are non-canon to actual SF, same as the anime
Don't believe everything you hear without proof, Capcom lets Udon use their characters, you might as well say the capcoms anime abilities are canon as well, and that Ryu's hadouken can blow up entire buildings, when actually in canon, even Gouki's super air hadoukens make little explosions in the ground.

--
“ The Street Fighter comic is not canon to the authentic history compiled in this guide. Udon employees even said so. The storylines are checked over by Capcom of Japan and approved, but that doesn't mean it's canon. It just means that Capcom of Japan wants to make sure Udon isn't butchering their characters etc etc. It's a good comic, though, I feel, and there are many details in it where Udon (the comic's creators) ask for details from Capcom regarding various things.”

--

As you can see, the “non-canon” factor, courtesy of Udon representatives is pointed at specifically the storyline and plot – nothing to do with the personalities of the characters themselves, nor their normal supers or moves. And also, he/she asserted the importance of the authenticity of their(Capcom’s) own characters being used properly.

Furthermore, the very next passage asserts:
--
“The creators and writers are more interested in keeping close to the
spirit of Street Fighter than the canon of it, since the latter could be hard to do and also inflexible in a comic, so the comic isn't exactly a
good source of canon(DarkC – In terms of plot-canon, as already established above).”
--

By “spirit” of Street Fighter, he means the direct games themselves, including solely the characters themselves, likely in personality and skills.

I’ll agree with you that some of the animes are quite ridiculous though, but this above is undeniable.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You said "materia" so i assumed you meant FF, so what else are you referring to in Tekken, or SF? Non-canon cannot be used, sorry, but it can't.

Yes, I know it can’t be used for purposes of proof, which is why I made that clear the moment I used it. Why on Earth do you think I said “For the sake of argument here” in the first place?

Originally posted by Terryc250
How am i being bias?

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'm saying you cannot use non-canon things, because they're not the actual character, the Gouki in the Udon Comics is not the same Gouki in the Capcom vs SNK Gouki, Gouki in SF, is not the same Gouki/Mech Gouki in Marvel vs Capcom, Gouki one anime is not the same Gouki in the other anime, they're all different incarnations of Gouki, some are similar some are totally different

End of story.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, they're all non-canon, the ONLY CANON GOUKI IS THE ONE FROM STREET FIGHTER, the actual game street fighter. Whatever the Udon Gouki did in the comics whether it was blow up that meteor twice the size of earth, or whatever you posted holds no weight.
Capcom lets alot of anime/comics use their characters, each and every one of them tells a different story, and their abilities range totally different from dodging bullets, to getting killed by bullets, to cracking meteors twice the size of earth
Unless you can prove that all of the abilities are canon, they are non-canon.

Some (UDON and SFZ anime) are actually quite accurate in terms of portrayal of the characters themselves – Capcom even said so thus negating about 90% of your argument, lol.

--
(In response to the topic “How would the characters move and fight like if they weren’t restricted by the gameplay engine?”)
“Capcom has actually stated that the most accurate portrayal thus far of how various characters in Street Fighter could move and fight is the Street Fighter Zero/Alpha anime.”

As for your random bringing up of bullet dodging (not sure whether you mentioned it as a serious point or not, so I'll reply to it anyway), another quote from the plot guide just prior to the one I listed above :

"As examples, Capcom stated that Ryu actually did have the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets (not that he actually ever has, but he could if the situation ever turned up)"

This, in addition to my previous reply concerning Udon, catapaults your recurring war-cry of “it’s non-canon!” completely out of the water altogether. If you continue to reply with “but it’s non-canon”, I’ll simply put this under your nose.

Again…touché.

Originally posted by Terryc250
CvS, and MvC are non-canon, its not the actual same Gouki as SF Canon, understand that please.

As for “It’s not actually Gouki”, see above. ‘MvC’ Gouki, aside from the new Tenma Gou Zankuukou special, was completely identical to the one in SF Alpha 3.
CvS Gouki we only discussed because you brought it up again just now, but aside from Misogi (which is, despite originating from a ‘crossover’ game like the Tenma Gou Zankuukou, canonically accepted in debates) there was technically nothing different about him asides from sprites. He had no known feats.

The only thing different is regarding the CvS2 version of Shin Gouki – this was not Gouki “going” all out, but a Gouki infused with the Orochi power provided by Rugal Bernstien. And yes, this version of Shin Gouki is considered completely non-canon.
Most interestingly though, he possessed every single super that Gouki has had throughout all the SF games – even Tenshou Kaireki Jin. But that’s another story anyways.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes it does hours to proceed, however if the ancestors who named shungokustasu what it is, described it wrong, they very well could've NAMED it wrong.

And sorry, but “could’ve” doesn’t cut it at all, especially pertaining to the relevance of the actual topic on hand. You’re clutching at straws now, more or less.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Buddy.. you said "[b]Exact same effort that Sephiroth treated Cloud with in FF: AC"
That only means ONE thing, that means if Sephiroth was giving 25% effort on Cloud, Gouki was giving 25% on Ryu[/b]

Originally posted by Terryc250
That right there is what "EXACT SAME EFFORT" means.. Effort and Motives are totally different things, if you said "Gouki was aiming for the same motive as Sephiroth" it would be different but thats not what you said, you said they were giving the exact same [b]effort

They are two different things, but effort stems from motives, which is what I was talking about all along. Remember, I had already (immediately after you pointed it out) told you that this was not the exact same physical effort (hence, use of the word scaling), and that “Ryu < Gouki is not similar to the factor on which Cloud < Sephiroth”. You DO remember me saying that, right? Along those lines?

What I meant was the mockery, the uncaringness of both characters were absolutely identical – all signs of the mental effort that both were exerting throughout their respective fights (for Gouki, before Ryu got up).

Originally posted by Terryc250
Now stop giving excuses, and admit you were wrong.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'm replying because i have things to say to what you're saying stop writing "zomg you're obsesssed with replying!!" like 10 times, I am reading your posts, and i am replying to them
No no see, it seems like you're the one being obsessed to reply these last few replies i've been replying to have nothing to do with the debate, you're just trying to make me out to be an "obsessed replier" so that i will stop replying to you, i shouldn't have to waste my time replying to these nonesense posts you're making.

You see, the sole reason why I keep telling you this is because you continue to plough on with points that, I long established ago to be either irrelevant with the topic at hand or, in the case of your continued use of “non-canon” in almost half of your posts I see. Why even bother with it, considering that I, in more than one instance, agreed with you? Why do you continue to bother with it, even after I told you that I more or less agreed with you? Why do you constantly seize upon points I say and remove them from their proper context, simply to try and make an outside point? It’s as if we’re way out on opposite ends of a football field, the way you’ve been following along (or lack thereof, in other words).

It’s because you’re replying for the sake of replying, that’s why – you’re so immersed in this debate that you seem to have to find fault with a lot of the things I say, even if they’re irrelevant. This is why I say you’re obsessed, you keep ignoring the point I bring up even after I’ve made it clear. Take a look at the small DBZ offshoot – you took my mentioning of the Instant Transmission completely the wrong way, since you seem so adamant on finding something, anything, remotely wrong with what I say.

If you’re going to ignore my point which you have predominantly done so far, you may as well ignore my post altogether for the good that it would do you, which is none at all. It’s blatantly clear that you very rarely get my arguments, so why bother if you don’t understand? Don’t reply with half-thought out counters, don’t reply if you don’t understand. If you ask “DarkC what are you talking about here?”, that’s perfectly OK with me, but one thing that annoys me is when people pretend to understand what I’m saying when they factually don’t.

See, even this post of yours right now conveys even further how you’re taking this too seriously. I’m not “trying” to convey you as an obsessive poster, because I don’t have to – you’re the one doing it yourself. I’m the one pointing out why. No, I’m not doing it to get you to stop replying to me (your assumption right here just really does not bode well for your self-credibility) completely. Like I said, I wish to have a proper debate – not someone who repeatedly ignores the points and takes matters out of context, and certainly not someone who takes it personally. In other words, I’m trying to get you to reply properly, something you don’t seem too keen on from what I've seen so far.

If you continue to ignorantly disregard what I say, despite me saying it in the post just prior, this is definitely not a very good statement for you. Considering that you’ve been doing it multiple times during this debate as well, I think it’s time for you to pack it up. Either that, or debate properly – as in post something constructive.

And lastly - what would you know about the debate – considering that I’ve been the one to remind you each and every time what I’m talking about and why the point your making has already faded into non-existence?

So you have, in addition to making falsified points, obsession with posting and ignorance on your “Great List of KMC Debate Crimes”! Yay!

Have fun trying to look good with all that on the dinner table. So congrats - you got top billing in the obituary, haha.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The point is, its possible for Gouki to teleport like that but its more UNLIKELY because he's never ever done that or anything like that before.

Again, ambiguity.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, it's because you're not understand, you think posting feats of another character from another game holds weight when it doesn't.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Because i haven't been incorrect yet have i? Can you tell me where i've been incorrect?

Curiously enough, after the last reply I made that asked you to agree with me after pointing out the irrefutable evidence from the SF4 video, you stopped replying. You no longer had any point to make pertaining to that fight – however, your pride and ego apparently prevented you from admitting that you were wrong, or that I was right, unlike I have done.

You apparently have so much pride that you cannot even recall the times that you were factually incorrect – as seen from what you just said.

The truth is, that a question like this makes no sense – tell me, have you really made any other active points other than the Sephiroth visual warping scene? Not really, most of what you’ve been doing are attempts to point out where I’m wrong (some of which have been right), you’re not actually making any arguments of your own.

Looks like you know less about debates than you previously thought.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'm not being bias, i'm just questioning you and looking for proof or an answer which i have not received.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.... so then why did you lie and say "Gouken beat up Gouki, then Gouki hit him with a shungokusatsu" ?

You DO recall me saying “Because I was trying to find one – I seem to remember reading it from Tiamat earlier, but apparently not“ and “There you have it, I apparently did not remember correctly”, right?

I wasn’t lying, at least not consciously – why would I post the evidence if I was actually trying to? You’re not making any sense.

Originally posted by Terryc250
And no its not the same Gouki, just as Galactus in MvC isn't the same Galactus(unless you think a guy who can warp entire galaxies and create planet busting heralds with a fraction of his power is really battling SF characters)

Originally posted by Terryc250
Gouki/Mech Gouki are entirely different incarnations of the actual SF Gouki.

Are you trying to be unproductive here, or what?

And to put this debate away...

Originally posted by Terryc250
Wow ok, listen, [b] I know that when shungokustasu lands it takes hours to complete
But listen, read and try to comprehend this:
The ancestors who gave the name "Shungokusatsu" (Instant Hell Murder) DESCRIBED the move as "one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity"
The ancestors said it themselves that it would take a mere moment for ones life to be cut off (the person would be dead in an instant)
So the fact is, the ancestors were WRONG, the same ancestors who NAMED it shungokusatsu, no its not describing one of the hells, its describing the attack itself that is blantaly obvious.
Hence "With this move" and not "The last hell" [/B]

I know exactly what you’re talking about, and it’s wrong.
This is what you’re reading:
“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a MOMENT (Instant) of unparalleled intensity.”

And this is what I am reading:
“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment OF unparalleled intensity.”

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. It doesn’t describe the mvoe itself (it’s neither specified nor implied, you only seem to think it such) it describes exactly what happens during the moment that the user dies – in other terms, what it’s like during the ” moment” of actual death (which we both know by now is a very slow and painful death).

You very much need to learn about what context is, and what it signifies.

It’s always kind of pitiful when your primary source of support turns out to be your own K.O. punch, ain’t it.

What are you going on about? It’s not remotely suggesting that Goutetsu’s talking about the course of the move (which, you have conceded to it being several hours).

So if you want to analyze this quote:
“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity.”

Only two facts can be deducted from this passage, solid and undeniable.

A.) Shungokusatsu is fatal (which was obvious, lol)
B.) The moment, just before death itself, is so intense it cannot be equaled.

Your assumption that it was referring to the technicalities of the move itself is just that – assumption. It doesn’t say “Once it lands”, it doesn’t say “When it starts up”. It says “With this move”, therefore you are simply forming an assumption.

You have nothing to base it upon. As you can see, Goutetsu was being specific. There’s nothing to suggest what happens “before” at this moment – and now I will bring up the previous points that were established from the section that I brought up, just for the sake of outlining the course of this part of the debate.

A.) Gouki clearly started up a Shungokusatsu on his master, Goutetsu.
B.) Several hours later, Gouki reappeared alongside his master’s corpse.
C.) It has been confirmed by Capcom that Goutetsu was indeed killed by a Shungokusatsu.
Also, from Tiamat/Saiki:
“SGS victims taking 15 hits and dying in the final hot "traditionally seemingly eternal" hell”

This forms another sub-fact:
AA.) Shungokusatsu does not kill the victim until the very end - in the final hell.

Based on facts A, AA, B and C, those form another conjecture:
D.) The only move that Gouki was performing on Goutetsu throughout those several hours was, in fact, a Shungokusatsu.
Therefore;
E.) The course of the Shungokusatsu lasts several hours.

Of course, so far this is just a summary.

From your standpoint we can add these two now, which in no way negates point E.

F.) The moment, just before death itself, is so intense it cannot be equaled.

Now, consider this.
G.) The literal, Japanese translation of “shun goku satsu” is “instant hell murder”.
H.) The actual start up of the move is not referred to directly.
I.) So far, thus known, there is absolutely nothing “instant” about Shungokusatsu. The user dies very slowly, given by deduction from fact E and fact AA.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the start-up itself is instant – considering there is no other reason to call it such. At all.

And by the way, your “the ancestors were wrong” is just your silly misinterpretation of it. You’re refuting official and confirmed Street Fighter canon, haha – good job.

Game, set, and match.

Better luck next debate.

darkC has been let loose
GJ 😄

It's hard to debate with DarkC.

For every post you make, he does three replies. 😂

Originally posted by MadMel
darkC has been let loose
GJ 😄

FOR PONY!

hehe 😄
you and richard have a lot in common
your both full of win 😛
"i made you a wallet" 😈

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
It's hard to debate with DarkC.

For every post you make, he does three replies. 😂

In this case, it's gone to the point where, as you can see, I've had to summarize the debate down to pointform just to get my argument across...I can't remember the last time that's happened - probably last year.

Originally posted by MadMel
hehe 😄
you and richard have a lot in common
your both full of win 😛
[b]"i made you a wallet" 😈 [/B]

He's so randomly evil too. 😂

Originally posted by dvampire
Yeah...I still don't believe that. The guy died three times by Cloud. You're trying to tell me he toyed with Cloud and let himself get killed three times? It's bull. It's okay to mock and toy around, but normally when you're about to die, all playing should stop. Seph wasn't playing around I think, he just lost straight up.

And what I found to be weird is that peeps is just startin to bring up the SGS now...that really makes that Akuma VS Cloud thread look like crap, now that ya think about it.

SHUNGOUKUSATSU BAAM!!!

Originally posted by DarkC
Lol, it's just because I usually have more to say.

In this case, it's gone to the point where, as you can see, I've had to summarize the debate down to pointform just to get my argument across...I can't remember the last time that's happened - probably last year.

Richard was always my hero man.

He's so randomly evil too. 😂

Originally posted by DarkC
Nope. Plotwise, yes; everything else, no. You’re simply just forming a hasty generalization and claiming it – both Saiki and Tiamat (besides Dark-Jaxx and I) disagree with you, as shown below.

--
“ The Street Fighter comic is not canon [b]to the authentic history compiled in this guide. Udon employees even said so. The storylines are checked over by Capcom of Japan and approved, but that doesn't mean it's canon. It just means that Capcom of Japan wants to make sure Udon isn't butchering their characters etc etc. It's a good comic, though, I feel, and there are many details in it where Udon (the comic's creators) ask for details from Capcom regarding various things.”

--

As you can see, the “non-canon” factor, courtesy of Udon representatives is pointed at specifically the storyline and plot – nothing to do with the personalities of the characters themselves, nor their normal supers or moves. And also, he/she asserted the importance of the authenticity of their(Capcom’s) own characters being used properly.

Furthermore, the very next passage asserts:
--
“The creators and writers are more interested in keeping close to the
spirit of Street Fighter than the canon of it, since the latter could be hard to do and also inflexible in a comic, so the comic isn't exactly a
good source of canon(DarkC – In terms of plot-canon, as already established above).”
--

By “spirit” of Street Fighter, he means the direct games themselves, including solely the characters themselves, likely in personality and skills.

I’ll agree with you that some of the animes are quite ridiculous though, but this above is undeniable.

Do you not realize that you are contradicting yourself? You think that the abilities are canon, just not the stories? Well this will smash your argument, the video you posted of SvC of Gouki doing shungokusatsu is clearly not how it would actually be like in canon because you even posted evidence of shungokusatsu taking "several hours" right there is proof that its not what the actual canon ability would be like

Besides that not only are the animes ridiculous, the comics are ridiculous as well, come on now, you really think Shin Gouki can smash a meteor thats bigger then a country?

Gouki NEVER had this kind of uppercut, this was something UDON made up:

Another thing that goes against your "instant" theory, you said that shungokusatsu in the comic made it seem instant but you didn't seem to see the other pages

[

If you look closely, Gouki injured Gouken with a fireball, then he used Shungokusatsu, and by the time he started up Shungokusatsu and was gliding towards him he had the time to say

*Gouken gets injured*
*'Shungokusatu' Gouki Glides towards Gouken*
"...Perhaps your student, Ryu, will be more receptive to its power"
"No..."
*Shungokusatsu hits*

Not only that, but this part of the ability also contradicts the actual canon, the death victim of Shungokusatsu' body is supposed to be horribly burnt and basically in ruins, in the comic Goukens body was totally fine.

Also in the actual canon it was supposed to take "several hours", in the comic nothing suggests that much time even passed, the "Fuuuuuu..." with the birds flying away suggests the noise of shungokusatsu as it lands, and on the exact same page Gouken is dead.

Keep in mind the other ridiculous stuff in the animes like Ryu's hadouken blowing up giant buildings when in canon, Gouki's super were just making holes in the ground.

The non-canon comics, anime, video games, none of them are accurate on how the abilities work.

No, it can be brought up, as I did; just not as legitimate proof, which I have established the moment that I mentioned that it was non-canon - making each and every time you have said “It can’t be used, it’s non-canon”.

Yes, I know it can’t be used for purposes of proof, which is why I made that clear the moment I used it. Why on Earth do you think I said “For the sake of argument here” in the first place?

You instantly jumped to a conclusion that had no relation to the point I was getting at, whatsoever.

As previously established in the very first reply I said, the non-canon factor pertaining to the animes/manga are solely plot related, not anything to do with the characters themselves.

End of story.

Yes, they very much are non-canon, but in terms of plot, not character portrayal.

Some (UDON and SFZ anime) are actually quite accurate in terms of portrayal of the characters themselves – Capcom even said so thus negating about 90% of your argument, lol.

(In response to the topic “How would the characters move and fight like if they weren’t restricted by the gameplay engine?”)
“Capcom has actually stated that the most accurate portrayal thus far of how various characters in Street Fighter could move and fight is the Street Fighter Zero/Alpha anime.”

As for your random bringing up of bullet dodging (not sure whether you mentioned it as a serious point or not, so I'll reply to it anyway), another quote from the plot guide just prior to the one I listed above :

"As examples, Capcom stated that Ryu actually did have the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets (not that he actually ever has, but he could if the situation ever turned up)"

This, in addition to my previous reply concerning Udon, catapaults your recurring war-cry of “it’s non-canon!” completely out of the water altogether. If you continue to reply with “but it’s non-canon”, I’ll simply put this under your nose.

Again…touché.

If Capcom did not write it, and it never happened in the storyline, then you cannot use it as an argument, i don't care what non canon comic he did it in or who created the comic (unless it was capcom themselves).

Yes, I know they’re non-canon, I was informed by Sado22 of this long ago.

As for “It’s not actually Gouki”, see above. ‘MvC’ Gouki, aside from the new Tenma Gou Zankuukou special, was completely identical to the one in SF Alpha 3.
CvS Gouki we only discussed because you brought it up again just now, but aside from Misogi (which is, despite originating from a ‘crossover’ game like the Tenma Gou Zankuukou, canonically accepted in debates) there was technically nothing different about him asides from sprites. He had no known feats.

The only thing different is regarding the CvS2 version of Shin Gouki – this was not Gouki “going” all out, but a Gouki infused with the Orochi power provided by Rugal Bernstien. And yes, this version of Shin Gouki is considered completely non-canon.
Most interestingly though, he possessed every single super that Gouki has had throughout all the SF games – even Tenshou Kaireki Jin. But that’s another story anyways.

It even contradicts the actual canon (Gouki doing shungokusatsu on Rugal in a short time when it should've taken several hours)

Thats why you cannot use those Gouki's in a debate, they're not accurate.

Your reasoning for it is quite wrong, and I’ve explained why below.

And sorry, but “could’ve” doesn’t cut it at all, especially pertaining to the relevance of the actual topic on hand. You’re clutching at straws now, more or less.

That’s in terms of scale, which I just said was not what I referred to. Why do you insist on attempting to bring up a nonexistent point?

Yes – in terms of physical effort, not mental. I’ve been comparing them in terms of mentality, as already established a very, very long time ago. I’m not sure when you missed it.
They are two different things, but effort stems from motives, which is what I was talking about all along. Remember, I had already (immediately after you pointed it out) told you that this was not the exact same physical effort (hence, use of the word scaling), and that “Ryu < Gouki is not similar to the factor on which Cloud < Sephiroth”. You DO remember me saying that, right? Along those lines?

What I meant was the mockery, the uncaringness of both characters were absolutely identical – all signs of the mental effort that both were exerting throughout their respective fights (for Gouki, before Ryu got up).

They had totally different mentalities and motives, the only thing similar is that they were both weren't going all-out.

So yeah, you're wrong... again.

Originally posted by DarkC
Ahhh, here is where the hammer will fall hardest.

You see, the sole reason why I keep telling you this is because you continue to plough on with points that, I long established ago to be either irrelevant with the topic at hand or, in the case of your continued use of “non-canon” in almost half of your posts I see. Why even bother with it, considering that I, in more than one instance, agreed with you? Why do you continue to bother with it, even after I told you that I more or less agreed with you? Why do you constantly seize upon points I say and remove them from their proper context, simply to try and make an outside point? It’s as if we’re way out on opposite ends of a football field, the way you’ve been following along (or lack thereof, in other words).

It’s because you’re replying for the sake of replying, that’s why – you’re so immersed in this debate that you seem to have to find fault with a lot of the things I say, even if they’re irrelevant. This is why I say you’re obsessed, you keep ignoring the point I bring up even after I’ve made it clear. Take a look at the small DBZ offshoot – you took my mentioning of the Instant Transmission completely the wrong way, since you seem so adamant on finding something, anything, remotely wrong with what I say.

If you’re going to ignore my point which you have predominantly done so far, you may as well ignore my post altogether for the good that it would do you, which is none at all. It’s blatantly clear that you very rarely get my arguments, so why bother if you don’t understand? Don’t reply with half-thought out counters, don’t reply if you don’t understand. If you ask “DarkC what are you talking about here?”, that’s perfectly OK with me, but one thing that annoys me is when people pretend to understand what I’m saying when they factually don’t.

See, even this post of yours right now conveys even further how you’re taking this too seriously. I’m not “trying” to convey you as an obsessive poster, because I don’t have to – you’re the one doing it yourself. I’m the one pointing out why. No, I’m not doing it to get you to stop replying to me (your assumption right here just really does not bode well for your self-credibility) completely. Like I said, I wish to have a proper debate – not someone who repeatedly ignores the points and takes matters out of context, and certainly not someone who takes it personally. In other words, I’m trying to get you to reply properly, something you don’t seem too keen on from what I've seen so far.

If you continue to ignorantly disregard what I say, despite me saying it in the post just prior, this is definitely not a very good statement for you. Considering that you’ve been doing it multiple times during this debate as well, I think it’s time for you to pack it up. Either that, or debate properly – as in post something constructive.

And lastly - what would you know about the debate – considering that I’ve been the one to remind you each and every time what I’m talking about and why the point your making has already faded into non-existence?

So you have, in addition to making falsified points, obsession with posting and ignorance on your “Great List of KMC Debate Crimes”! Yay!

Have fun trying to look good with all that on the dinner table. So congrats - you got top billing in the obituary, haha.

No, i ignore the things that are pretty much irrelevant and don't need to be replied to, for example, this post right here, i would normally just ignore it because where the hell is this going? You're just trying to stop me from posting and replying, but if i have something to say i'll say it, if you didn't want me to reply to the instant transmission post, don't say it in the first place, it's a waste of time, if i ask for proof, don't post pointless non-canon things which are not "proof" i asked for proof, if you don't have proof say you don't, thats all, you just pick at sticks and straws tjust to find something to post, for example i asked you to show me proof of Gouken and Gouki's fight, yet for some reason you post their prior fight for no reason at all, you seem to have a nag for posting irrelevant and pointless things, i don't know why.

Considering the point I just made, yes, it does have some weight.

Well, right off the top of my head, you were quite wrong during that whole “that doesn’t mean that Ryu got dominated” segment.

Curiously enough, after the last reply I made that asked you to agree with me after pointing out the irrefutable evidence from the SF4 video, you stopped replying. You no longer had any point to make pertaining to that fight – however, your pride and ego apparently prevented you from admitting that you were wrong, or that I was right, unlike I have done.

You apparently have so much pride that you cannot even recall the times that you were factually incorrect – as seen from what you just said.

Again you're posting pointless things, stop.

The truth is, that a question like this makes no sense – tell me, have you really made any other active points other than the Sephiroth visual warping scene? Not really, most of what you’ve been doing are attempts to point out where I’m wrong (some of which have been right), you’re not actually making any arguments of your own.

Stop pretending as though you haven’t – you have lots of times by now, you just choose to ignore it or twist it to your own purposes.

We’ve gone over this.

You DO recall me saying “Because I was trying to find one – I seem to remember reading it from Tiamat earlier, but apparently not“ and “There you have it, I apparently did not remember correctly”, right?

If you’re basing your judgement of his character solely on the fact that he’s being “pit up” against said characters in what’s supposed to be a balanced, fighting crossover game, then that defeats your own point by itself. Good job.

I think I’ve acceded to Mech Gouki being ridiculous about two, three times now.