Team SOLDIER vs Team Ansatsuken

Originally posted by DarkC
And to put this debate away...

Lol, this is exactly what I’m talking about – you separate the words from their context in order to suit your own needs.

I know exactly what you’re talking about, and it’s wrong.
This is what you’re reading:
“With that move, it was said that [b]one's own life would be cut off in a MOMENT (Instant) of unparalleled intensity.”

And this is what I am reading:
“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment OF unparalleled intensity.”

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. It doesn’t describe the mvoe itself (it’s neither specified nor implied, you only seem to think it such) it describes exactly what happens during the moment that the user dies – in other terms, what it’s like during the ” moment” of actual death (which we both know by now is a very slow and painful death).

You very much need to learn about what context is, and what it signifies.

It’s always kind of pitiful when your primary source of support turns out to be your own K.O. punch, ain’t it.

What are you going on about? It’s not remotely suggesting that Goutetsu’s talking about the course of the move (which, you have conceded to it being several hours).

So if you want to analyze this quote:
“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity.”

Only two facts can be deducted from this passage, solid and undeniable.

A.) Shungokusatsu is fatal (which was obvious, lol)
B.) The moment, just before death itself, is so intense it cannot be equaled.

Your assumption that it was referring to the technicalities of the move itself is just that – assumption. It doesn’t say “Once it lands”, it doesn’t say “When it starts up”. It says “With this move”, therefore you are simply forming an assumption.

You have nothing to base it upon. As you can see, Goutetsu was being specific. There’s nothing to suggest what happens “before” at this moment – and now I will bring up the previous points that were established from the section that I brought up, just for the sake of outlining the course of this part of the debate.

A.) Gouki clearly started up a Shungokusatsu on his master, Goutetsu.
B.) Several hours later, Gouki reappeared alongside his master’s corpse.
C.) It has been confirmed by Capcom that Goutetsu was indeed killed by a Shungokusatsu.
Also, from Tiamat/Saiki:
“SGS victims taking 15 hits and dying in the final hot "traditionally seemingly eternal" hell”

This forms another sub-fact:
AA.) Shungokusatsu does not kill the victim until the very end - in the final hell.

Based on facts A, AA, B and C, those form another conjecture:
D.) The only move that Gouki was performing on Goutetsu throughout those several hours was, in fact, a Shungokusatsu.
Therefore;
E.) The course of the Shungokusatsu lasts several hours.

Of course, so far this is just a summary.

From your standpoint we can add these two now, which in no way negates point E.

F.) The moment, just before death itself, is so intense it cannot be equaled.

Now, consider this.
G.) The literal, Japanese translation of “shun goku satsu” is “instant hell murder”.
H.) The actual start up of the move is not referred to directly.
I.) So far, thus known, there is absolutely nothing “instant” about Shungokusatsu. The user dies very slowly, given by deduction from fact E and fact AA.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the start-up itself is instant – considering there is no other reason to call it such. At all.

And by the way, your “the ancestors were wrong” is just your silly misinterpretation of it. You’re refuting official and confirmed Street Fighter canon, haha – good job.

Game, set, and match.

Better luck next debate. [/B]

SEE THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, you pick at things which are not logical to try to make it better for Gouki, EVERYONE, and i MEAN EVERYONE normally reading

“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a MOMENT of unparalleled intensity.”

EVERYONE would translate this into:
"This move, the victims life will be cut off in a moment of unmatched/excruciating pain"

Yet somehow you translate it to:

"The move has 15 hells, the last one is the most hottest and painful"

Yes it does describe the MOVE ITSELF, hence "WITH THIS MOVE"

That can only mean it's describing the MOVE, its not saying "PART OF THIS MOVE" its saying "WITH THIS MOVE" meaning the move as a whole.

Yet you translate it the way you want it so that it "leaves no room for instant" so you want the instant to be where you want it to be.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The entire comic story is NON-CANON, what the abilities look like, what it does is not 100% what the actual canon ability would be like, keep in mind Capcom did not actually make them thats why, UDON made them themselves basing them on Capcoms, Capcom did not make them in the comic.

I have already provided proof of this, directly copy-pasted and formatted from the Street Fighter canon guide provided by Tiamat and Saiki. (Go check if you don’t believe me.) As you can see – they explicitly point to the plotin the UDON as being uncanon despite its accuracy, nothing to do with any other aspect of the comic.

If they really did believe that the entire comic was non-canon, every aspect of it, they would have just generalized completely and not mention anything specific – but they did. More so, they pointed out that the sole motive for creating the comic was to emulate the “spirit” of Street Fighter, something they would never be able to do if they altered the character aside from what Capcom has established by.

Unless you can find me proof, solid evidence, of them (character moves) referred to as non-canon, then your rants hold no ground here – as I said, they’re just noise.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Do you not realize that you are contradicting yourself? You think that the abilities are canon, just not the stories? Well this will smash your argument, the video you posted of SvC of Gouki doing shungokusatsu is clearly not how it would actually be like in canon because you even posted evidence of shungokusatsu taking "several hours" right there is proof that its not what the actual canon ability would be like

Well, you don’t exactly see much, do you? You only know the circumstances beforehand (once again, proof that you’re not reading my posts) that Rugal Bernstein, one of the “technically” best fighters of all time, ready and waiting and he was unable to avoid it even when Akuma announced it. Considering that they’re using picture stills in the style of SFA (only more prettier) there’s actually no accurate way to form any conjectures relating to passage of time or speed. You have to think deeper into the situation, which, once again you have failed to do.

Do you see him dragging Rugal through the sixteen hells?
Do you see demons beating him up?

No.

You see a big explosion. Tell me, what leads you to believe that the explosion was either the beginning or the end of the move? Also, what evidence do you have that allows you to make such a curiously self-accurate assumption of where that explosion stands, in the time-frame of the course of Shungokusatsu itself?

None, you have nothing – you’re simply forming wild theories again, just because something blew up.

Nice try.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Besides that not only are the animes ridiculous, the comics are ridiculous as well, come on now, you really think Shin Gouki can smash a meteor thats bigger then a country?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Gouki NEVER had this kind of uppercut, this was something UDON made up:

Funnily enough, Gouki’s pose while doing that “uppercut” in the comic matches the final sprite in the second picture I posted almost precisely.

But yeah, enough said here, I reckon.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Another thing that goes against your "instant" theory, you said that shungokusatsu in the comic made it seem instant but you didn't seem to see the other pages
If you look closely, Gouki injured Gouken with a fireball, then he used Shungokusatsu, and by the time he started up Shungokusatsu and was gliding towards him he had the time to say

*Gouken gets injured*
*'Shungokusatu' Gouki Glides towards Gouken*
"...Perhaps your student, Ryu, will be more receptive to its power"
"No..."
*Shungokusatsu hits*

1.) Gouki fires a shakunetsou hadouken at Gouken. It hits.
2.) Gouki throws a high knee(“THWAK”) at Gouken (that’s not the Shungokusatsu, lol), which hits.
3.) You see Gouki reaching out with his palm towards Gouken.
4.) Gouken yells out his top student’s name.
5.) Gouki screams “SHUN GOKU SATSU!”

Why on Earth did you “insert” the words “*'Shungokusatu' Gouki Glides towards Gouken*“ before the “Perhaps your student, Ryu…” panel, where it clearly shows that Gouki was just beating on and taunting Gouken in the other panels on the scan of that page?

He hits Gouken with a flame hadouken, a high knee…he doesn’t perform Shungokusatsu until after.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not only that, but this part of the ability also contradicts the actual canon, the death victim of Shungokusatsu' body is supposed to be horribly burnt and basically in ruins, in the comic Goukens body was totally fine.

Would you refer to getting your right arm ripped completely off (from the looks of it) “totally fine”?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Also in the actual canon it was supposed to take "several hours", in the comic nothing suggests that much time even passed, the "Fuuuuuu..." with the birds flying away suggests the noise of shungokusatsu as it lands, and on the exact same page Gouken is dead.

Unless you have a point of reference, say, the sun and moon (or their respective positions in the sky) to provide evidence (and you clearly don’t have any, from what I can tell in the frame) – this is yet again, baseless conjecture.

As it stands, from that picture there’s no way to tell time from it – could have been minutes or hours; it’s simply too cloudy to draw conclusion solely from that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Keep in mind the other ridiculous stuff in the animes like Ryu's hadouken blowing up giant buildings when in canon, Gouki's super were just making holes in the ground.

As you can see, Gouki’s shakunetsu-hadoukens were easily making explosions that were enough to blow a normal man up. Plus the whole sinking an island and destroying a mountain deal.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The non-canon comics, anime, video games, none of them are accurate on how the abilities work.

Courtesy of Tiamat/Saiki:
(In response to the topic “How would the characters move and fight like if they weren’t restricted by the gameplay engine?”)
“Capcom has actually stated that the most accurate portrayal thus far of how various characters in Street Fighter could move and fight is the Street Fighter Zero/Alpha anime.”

There you have it, Capcom specifically named one of their sponsored animes that was quite accurate in terms of character portrayal, thus negating your argument. Unless you want to somehow refute an official statement from Capcom, you’re dead in the water. Claiming that it’s contradictory will get you nowhere.

There’s my references and proof. Where’s yours?

Originally posted by Terryc250
I know you weren't using it as proof, however, thats what i asked for, and "for the sake of the argument" it doesn't help the argument either, because its not accurate at all, so thats why i said its "pointless".

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its UDONs portrayal, not Capcoms, they're just basically writing a storyline BASED on Capcoms.

Which is a textbook “argument from ignorance” logical fallacy.

I think you’re mistaking “official” and “accurate” as synonyms of each other – they’re not, at least not ‘necessarily’. Simply because a media outlet is not classified to be “official” says absolutely nothing about its actual accuracy.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Some are somewhat accurate, some are horribly unaccurate, but it makes no difference, if its not capcoms actual story then it doesn't matter, just because Ryu blew up a building in one anime doesnt make him capable of it, just because Gouki blew up a huge meteor in a comic doesnt make him capable of it, if Capcom actually wrote that he did it, then it would actually mean something.

If Capcom did not write it, and it never happened in the storyline, then you cannot use it as an argument, i don't care what non canon comic he did it in or who created the comic (unless it was capcom themselves).

The point stands ; if Capcom didn’t write it themselves, no it doesn’t hold much ground, but if they issue statements regarding the actual accuracy (as they have done, from what I have shown you) of certain animes and comics (not all), then yes, it definitely stands.

Do you have any proof otherwise? Any issued statements from Capcom or Udon? Interview transcripts? No, just faulty logic and conjecture as far as the eye can see. You’ve even gone so far as to drag plot and story into this –yes, I know they’re not canon and even Capcom and Udon said that – but as for character portrayal (excluding “feats”, which are strictly plot-related), some of it has been confirmed to be quite accurate, Udon and the SFA anime specifically. You cannot refute this.

Basically if Capcom makes someone else write it, then assure the customers buying it – “yes, this is how so-and-so is done and portrayed”, does that mean that it’s inaccurate? No, quite the opposite.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Can you show me the actual statement from a reliable source?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes if its not canon (meaning not capcom made, not the actual SF storyline) then i don't care what the person has done, if he didn't actually do it in the SF storyline, then it doesn't matter to me.

Don’t talk as though you have authority over the matter, because you obviously do not.

Originally posted by Terryc250
They aren't actually the real SF Gouki in those crossover games, Gouki never got turned into a mech by apocolypse, Gouki never got the orochi power, thats just crap they made up

Originally posted by Terryc250
It even contradicts the actual canon (Gouki doing shungokusatsu on Rugal in a short time when it should've taken several hours)

You see a big explosion – and somehow you assume that you can tell an entire story from it; ludicrous, to say the least.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Thats why you cannot use those Gouki's in a debate, they're not accurate.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, if the description they gave was wrong stating that ones life would be cut off in a moment, when it took several hours, the name very well could be too.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Even that, they had completely different motives, Gouki's motive was just to show Ryu how weak he was, and so he would embrace the evil and get stronger so Gouki can have a great figh,, Sephiroth just wanted to taunt him and let him know that he will take everything he cares about from him and theres nothing he can do about it, he wasn't trying to get Cloud stronger or anything like that.

They had totally different mentalities and motives, the only thing similar is that they were both weren't going all-out.

So yeah, you're wrong... again.

You’re not explaining anything here, I am; the whole point of the similarity between the two conflicts was to show you the disdain for Ryu was almost exactly the same as the disdain for Cloud, the feeling of hatred for Gouki was almost exactly the same as Cloud’s rivalry with Sephiroth, etc.

Gouki picking Ryu up by his head and tossing him away can be easily compared with Sephiroth stabbing Cloud through the shoulder – both adversaries were just out to mock their opponents at the time.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, i ignore the things that are pretty much irrelevant and don't need to be replied to, for example, this post right here, i would normally just ignore it because where the hell is this going? You're just trying to stop me from posting and replying, but if i have something to say i'll say it, if you didn't want me to reply to the instant transmission post, don't say it in the first place, it's a waste of time, if i ask for proof, don't post pointless non-canon things which are not "proof" i asked for proof, if you don't have proof say you don't, thats all, you just pick at sticks and straws tjust to find something to post, for example i asked you to show me proof of Gouken and Gouki's fight, yet for some reason you post their prior fight for no reason at all, you seem to have a nag for posting irrelevant and pointless things, i don't know why.

First things first – if you want to post to something, then post. If you don’t, then don’t. But don’t parade around pretending as though you didn’t want to post, when you actually did; it’s clear that you wanted to anyway, so don’t try to pull that attitude – not gonna work. Doesn’t make you look good at all either, I might add.

Now, it’s pretty obvious that you’re under the impression that you have to absolutely post to anything and everything I say. Don’t even attempt to pretend otherwise, your actions all over this debate will prove you wrong. See… it’s not like I’m pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to attempt to reply to everything, you are the only one inside that mentality. To make it short – if you see it, you’ll reply to it no matter what it is. Even if there was irrefutable evidence that was provided earlier, you’ll still plough on with your point despite the fact that it has been proven wrong. Look at your “it’s non-canon” points all above. None of them have a point anyways, considering that you have Capcom and Udon’s official statements to vie against if you disagree with them, something which is impossible to refute.

All this doesn’t look good for you, especially considering what I just told you in the post that you just replied to (which, you have seemed to insist on ignoring yet again). You’re still under the considerably obsessive mentality that I’m trying to stop you from posting. Once again, I’m not trying to stop you from posting, period, I told you not to post unless it was at least something productive. You see, as our debate progresses, the less I see from you that is productive at all. You’re wasting your time by posting such content, yet you still do because your obsession demands so. Right now you’re at a point where none of what you’re posting is remotely constructive to the discussion. I’ve advised you not to post unless it was something that would progress the debate, but you ignored me (predictably) and continued anyway.

I just find picks and straws to find something to post? Isn’t that what I just accused you of, more or less? Very rich, considering what you’ve been doing. First of all, look at your reply to the Instant Transmission segment. Despite the fact that it’s pretty obvious it was meant as a joke in relation to what we were discussing (“Instant” hell murder, “Instant” transmission…surely you can see the connection that I was jesting about) you simply have to reply to it anyways, because you do. It’s engraved in you by now. Not only that, you replied to it in a matter which tells me you instantly assumed that I was trying to make a point out of it.

You’re at the point of obsession that you simply have to prove me wrong on something, anything, that you’ll make silly mistakes while trying to do it.

Example, take a look at your “Udon invented this uppercut” argument – any remote Street Fighter fan reading this thread will tell you, “Um, Terry…that’s just his typical gou-shoryuken. 🤨”
Example, take a look at your “Gouki vs Gouken comic” argument – you pieced the frames chronologically wrong for no reason at all, except for the fact that it suited your argument.
Example, take a look at your whole “meter smashing/building destroying” business. Yes, I don’t use them, nor does anyone else – they’re feats, which are entirely original to the comic in the plot-sense, but your point there is moot. I don’t refer to feats, I refer to moves original to Capcom that were portrayed through the comic, in this case, Shungokusatsu.

You accuse me of pointing pointless things (which by now, considering how the debate has developed since then, is moot), but seeing the points that have just been established, where does that leave you?

Literally, nowhere at all.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Your point is incorrect as i have already proven that the abilities in noncanon games, comics, animes, differ from the actual canon.

For all your vaunted insisting of “stop posting pointless things”, you’re not setting yourself a good example, aren’t you? No, you’re content on digging your own grave, using hypocrisy as your shovel.

I’m fine with that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh I wasn't incorrect, there is absolutely no proof Ryu was totally dominated in the pre-fight before the video was shown, you're only basing that because Gouki threw him by his head which is ridiculous, if you're going to say "Well Gouki looked totally fine" i can say "Well Ryu looked totally fine after he got up as well"

You choose, predictably, to disregard the results of the pre-fight simply because it topples your argument. It’s nice to see that after all this time, you’re still ignorant of my main points. Gouki picking him up by his head, as I said, is but one of quite a few factors which leads me to believe that he was completely owned in the pre-fight. Any other person watching that video will tell you, “Dude what are you talking about, Ryu got pwnt”.

Let’s bring up the mail-order points.
-Ryu is lying facedown in the dirt.
-He is unable to move.
-He is unable to talk.
-Even after Gouki starts raining shakunetsu-hadoukens left and right for the sole purpose of spiting Ryu, Ryu is unable to do anything more than grunt and gasp and open his eyes.
-Even after Gouki picks up Ryu by his head and yells in his face, Ryu is unable to even do so much as retort.

Now, you’d have the burden of somehow vying against all this evidence against you, above. Normally if it had been a ‘good’ fight you’d see Gouki at least panting, staggering, crouching in exhaustion maybe – something of the sort. Do you see this? No, you don’t. You see him leaping around blasting the ground around Ryu happily with shakunetsu-hadoukens, something he would have been incapable of if he were severely fatigued.

So far, nothing points to a “fair fight” beforehand, and everything points to a complete curbstomp on Gouki’s part. The fact that Ryu was able to stand back up after doesn’t refute the above points, at all.

I’m bringing up solid, irrefutable evidence taken from the trailer itself. Where’s yours?

Your sole argument remaining now “Well it could have been a fair fight, Ryu might have landed some shots on Gouki” are just conjecture. No backup, no evidence, just conjecture.

As far as I’m concerned, you’re attempting (with poor results) to cover up for a foolish statement you made earlier.

Not workin’, pal.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Again you're posting pointless things, stop.

Not falling for that one, sorry.
You’d better hope that no one reads this part, because you’ve essentially just made yourself the temporary laughingstock of the KMC Games Vs. forums. Here, have a trophy.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Do you not realize we're not debating Sephiroth here? Do you not even realize what we're debating? We're debating you and your Gouki theories. Why should i randomly bring up a Sephiroth point out of the blue? We're long passed Sephiroth here, we're talking about Gouki and his questionable feats.

If you haven’t noticed, I was referring to the entirety of our debate in general.
Quite funny how you, yet again, jump on something totally irrelevant in a poor attempt to prove me wrong on some obscure, nonexistent point.

Originally posted by Terryc250
How am i being Bias? I'm questioning YOU, theres no bias in that, in my opinion you're the one being biased you're picking at things, at all the positives and ignoring the negatives try to make Gouki seem like a more powerful character.

Any evidence of what I’ve been saying that explicitly ignored the negatives and focusing on the positives? At least you should have some evidence, right?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yeah thats after I questioned you, its funny how things seem to be coming out after I question you.

Amusing how you seem to think that needlessly pointing out something (or things) that I did wrong earlier will make me look bad. If anything, I take pride in being able to admit to error, so I don’t really mind either way.

Again, nice try.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No i'm basing on a ridiculous crossover games, why is it that its so ridiculous (which you even agree) yet if its a good feat for Gouki you'll say "Well that ability is probably canon!" when its obvious that the uncanon crossover games are ridiculous itself, they don't have anything to do with the actual mainstream SF, yet you pick at the things that make Gouki look good.

I pointed out how a special originating in a MvC game ended up being canon. Does that make Gouki look “good”?
I pointed out how a special actually never shown in a SF is still considered to be “canon”.

Not sure where you’re trying to get at here. (?)

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its just as ridiculous as Gouki with the orochi power, so don't bring the ridiculous things in the debate.

Always sad when you don’t seem to realize that I’m agreeing with you. Also a little funny.

Originally posted by Terryc250
SEE THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, you pick at things which are not logical to try to make it better for Gouki, EVERYONE, and i MEAN EVERYONE normally reading
“With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity.”
EVERYONE would translate this into:
"This move, the victims life will be cut off in a moment of unmatched/excruciating pain"
Yet somehow you translate it to:
"The move has 15 hells, the last one is the most hottest and painful"
Yes it does describe the MOVE ITSELF, hence "WITH THIS MOVE"
That can only mean it's describing the MOVE, its not saying "PART OF THIS MOVE" its saying "WITH THIS MOVE" meaning the move as a whole.
Yet you translate it the way you want it so that it "leaves no room for instant" so you want the instant to be where you want it to be.

Let’s have a bit of a refresher before proceeding.
B.) The moment, just before death itself, is so intense that it cannot be equaled.

And if you really want to attempt to copy me and pretend that “everyone” will see it that way, evidence so far seems to, yet again, disagree with you.

Now that I’ve corrected you on one instance, let us move on to the actual argument.

Your sole argument is “okay, from what the ancestors described it, it’s:”
“ With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity.”
Which is the base statement we’ve been working on.

Now, before we address the meaning of this statement - you seem to believe that shungokusatsu is “instantaneous”, despite the fact that the next passage directly underneath this one asserts the solid irrefutable fact that:

E.) The course of the shungokusatsu itself takes several hours, in which the victim dies at the very end in the final, hottest hell.

And yet you seem to think that the ancestors named it incorrectly. What is your logic for this? It’s based on a single word in the passage.

“ With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a MOMENT of unparalleled intensity.”

You’re focusing on that one word solely, not even the rest of the passage – just that one word, and separating it from its context, ignoring the rest so that it becomes essentially:

“With that move, it was said that one’s own life would be cut off in a moment.”

This then, leads you to form a basis based on this out-of-context statement:

BB.) The Shungokusatsu is ‘said’ to kill the opponent instantaneously.

Now, despite being this obviously wrong, you attempt to place the blame of misinterpretation on some fictional, mythical characters who were the original ones who named the Shungokusatsu. (?) In short, you’re claiming that the official and confirmed lore of Street Fighter is “wrong” or “mistaken” – therefore claiming that the literal translation is ‘wrong’.

This erroneous idea you’re suggesting doesn’t make sense on a few levels.

You realize that it was Capcom themselves who made the translation, right? Right?
Thus, you are refuting Capcom’s definition, not some weird old mythical “ancestors”, and claiming that it’s wrong.
Next, why would they name it and purposely claim it wrong, in a secret “underlying” fashion?

Why would Capcom(not the ancestors) then name it “instant hell murder” when there was nothing, according to canon, “instant” about the course of the move? Simple, the 'instant' is not referring to the course of the move itself.

Considering that there’s nothing else to refer the “instant” to (and disregarding your baseless mockery of this point) other than how it starts up, reasoning points to the start up as instant.

Is there anything else to refer it as “instant”? No.

Case closed – shungokusatsu is instant, but kills very slowly.

So, where does that leave us now, Terry? Where are we supposed to go from here? At this point you’ve weaseled, avoided and purposely misinterpreted just to get an argument across for me to address. Seeing as how your posts are less and less having to do with the argument at hand (at least in terms of productivity) and more to do with your need to continue to post, there’s actually less for you to do as you go on. It wouldn’t be happening if you managed to, say, find actual uproof.

You’ve essentially boxed yourself into a corner. By logic, you’re technically supposed to admit defeat since there’s no more for you to say (because there isn’t anymore, not if you actually wanted to debate properly) but right now we both know that because of your obsession, there’s more of a chance of that happening than Tifa beating Sephiroth in a fight.

You no longer have anywhere to go in this debate, unless you continue to insist on replying with “but it’s non-canon, doesn’t count”, despite the proof that Capcom and Udon believe that some of the “non-canon plot” material does convey the characters properly.

With all that being said, I fully anticipate your next quote-by-quote reply to be predominantly filled with petulance and purposeful ignorance of the proof I have trumped you with.

Away you go now.

......goddamn!
if i can quote all this, i will

He might aswell write a novel.

The Quote Master!!!

😆

Terry's literally thrust himself in a position right now where he can't do anything except post nonsense or unconstructive gibberish - the chances of him finding actual clear proof or evidence that would irrefutably negate mine are astronomical, considering that mine were taken directly from Capcom and Udon (referring to Tiamat/Saiki).

He lost a long time ago, he just doesn't seem to realize it.

Originally posted by DarkC
Sorry Terry, but as you can see both the statements from Udon and Capcom themselves disagree with you.

I have already provided proof of this, directly copy-pasted and formatted from the Street Fighter canon guide provided by Tiamat and Saiki. (Go check if you don’t believe me.) As you can see – they explicitly point to the plotin the UDON as being uncanon despite its accuracy, nothing to do with any other aspect of the comic.

If they really did believe that the entire comic was non-canon, every aspect of it, they would have just generalized completely and not mention anything specific – but they did. More so, they pointed out that the sole motive for creating the comic was to emulate the “spirit” of Street Fighter, something they would never be able to do if they altered the character aside from what Capcom has established by.

They're obviously not going to state "The characters clothes aren't canon, the characters, abilities aren't 100% how they work, the characters settings aren't exactly canon" no they're not going to list everything the fact that they basically wrote "The Story is not canon" is enough for anyone to know that the entire comic is non-canon.

Use your brain please, Udon doesn't write Capcoms canon story, nor are they apart of Capcoms company so they basically know just as much about Capcom characters as anyone of us.

Unless you can find me proof, solid evidence, of them (character moves) referred to as non-canon, then your rants hold no ground here – as I said, they’re just noise.

You mean the one vs Rugal Bernstein?

Well, you don’t exactly see much, do you? You only know the circumstances beforehand (once again, proof that you’re not reading my posts) that Rugal Bernstein, one of the “technically” best fighters of all time, ready and waiting and he was unable to avoid it even when Akuma announced it. Considering that they’re using picture stills in the style of SFA (only more prettier) there’s actually no accurate way to form any conjectures relating to passage of time or speed. You have to think deeper into the situation, which, once again you have failed to do.

Do you see him dragging Rugal through the sixteen hells?
Do you see demons beating him up?

No.

You see a big explosion. Tell me, what leads you to believe that the explosion was either the beginning or the end of the move? Also, what evidence do you have that allows you to make such a curiously self-accurate assumption of where that explosion stands, in the time-frame of the course of Shungokusatsu itself?

None, you have nothing – you’re simply forming wild theories again, just because something blew up.

Nice try.

Common sense is your friend, use it.

That feat can’t be used as canon anyways, I would refuse to use it, but normal Gouki was able to destroy mountains and islands – so, I wouldn’t be surprised.

Um…are you serious? Like actually serious?
Funnily enough, Gouki’s pose while doing that “uppercut” in the comic matches the final sprite in the second picture I posted almost precisely.

[quote]
Well, considering that he shouted the incantation for it in the 2nd last picture (the one I originally found and used), everything before that is moot – he’s just taunting Gouken.
Here is the actual sequence of events (considering you posted the screens in the correct chronological order).

1.) Gouki fires a shakunetsou hadouken at Gouken. It hits.
2.) Gouki throws a high knee(“THWAK”) at Gouken (that’s not the Shungokusatsu, lol), which hits.
3.) You see Gouki reaching out with his palm towards Gouken.
4.) Gouken yells out his top student’s name.
5.) Gouki screams “SHUN GOKU SATSU!”

Why on Earth did you “insert” the words “*'Shungokusatu' Gouki Glides towards Gouken*“ before the “Perhaps your student, Ryu…” panel, where it clearly shows that Gouki was just beating on and taunting Gouken in the other panels on the scan of that page?[/qutoe]
Wtf, so Gouki just puts his hand on peoples head to use shungokusatsu now? Haha

Thats a high knee to the face? Wow he can knee people in the face on his toes without bending there face down, oddly enough whenever Gouki uses shungokusatsu he has that exact pose he has:

Quite funny eh? Its the exact pose just as Gouki uses shungokusatsu in canon, however in your eyes its just a high knee, then Gouki somehow launches his shungokusatsu with a hand on the face rofl.

"He hits Gouken with a flame hadouken, a high knee…he doesn’t perform Shungokusatsu until after."

Haha your a funny one.

Originally posted by DarkC
You mean that corpse in the bottom of the last panel of the last page you posted (the one that shows after Gouki smears the kanji “tien” with blood)? It’s clearly Gouken, from the shape of the head and the huge amount of facial hair underneath.

Would you refer to getting your right arm ripped completely off (from the looks of it) “totally fine”?

They'd see the picture how it actually is, one arm behind his leg (which is right).

And nothing suggests otherwise, either. That’s the whole faulty part of using a comic with stills to tell time passage, which is what you’re trying to do.

Unless you have a point of reference, say, the sun and moon (or their respective positions in the sky) to provide evidence (and you clearly don’t have any, from what I can tell in the frame) – this is yet again, baseless conjecture.

If you’re referring to Tenma Gou Zankuukou, of course they were “making holes”, they’re not supposed to be powerful individually (each zankuu-hadou), they’re more to overwhelm than anything. It’s a lot like Genesis’s flame attack that he used against Sephiroth in the CC cinematic.

As you can see, Gouki’s shakunetsu-hadoukens were easily making explosions that were enough to blow a normal man up. Plus the whole sinking an island and destroying a mountain deal.

I have just placed evidence of statements from both Udon and Capcom that strongely indicate otherwise, right under your nose. Do you have anything, other than useless and entirely unbased and unsupported statements, to contribute? Anything productive, in other words?

Courtesy of Tiamat/Saiki:
(In response to the topic “How would the characters move and fight like if they weren’t restricted by the gameplay engine?”)
“Capcom has actually stated that the most accurate portrayal thus far of how various characters in Street Fighter could move and fight is the Street Fighter Zero/Alpha anime.”

There you have it, Capcom specifically named one of their sponsored animes that was quite accurate in terms of character portrayal, thus negating your argument. Unless you want to somehow refute an official statement from Capcom, you’re dead in the water. Claiming that it’s contradictory will get you nowhere.

There’s my references and proof. Where’s yours?

Moot point, as addressed above.

Your logic here simplifies to “Because it’s Udon, not Capcom, it’s entirely inaccurate.”
Which is a textbook “argument from ignorance” logical fallacy.

I think you’re mistaking “official” and “accurate” as synonyms of each other – they’re not, at least not ‘necessarily’. Simply because a media outlet is not classified to be “official” says absolutely nothing about its actual accuracy.

The thing about you is, you think Udon has access to private information on Capcom or you think they work with the developers of the SF producer, they don't. Udon is a totally seperate company, Capcom just gives them permission to use their characters, and story just as long as they don't butcher it.

All this is simply noise.

The point stands ; if Capcom didn’t write it themselves, no it doesn’t hold much ground, but if they issue statements regarding the actual accuracy (as they have done, from what I have shown you) of certain animes and comics (not all), then yes, it definitely stands.

Do you have any proof otherwise? Any issued statements from Capcom or Udon? Interview transcripts? No, just faulty logic and conjecture as far as the eye can see. You’ve even gone so far as to drag plot and story into this –yes, I know they’re not canon and even Capcom and Udon said that – but as for character portrayal (excluding “feats”, which are strictly plot-related), some of it has been confirmed to be quite accurate, Udon and the SFA anime specifically. You cannot refute this.

Basically if Capcom makes someone else write it, then assure the customers buying it – “yes, this is how so-and-so is done and portrayed”, does that mean that it’s inaccurate? No, quite the opposite.

Use your brain here, Capcom only allows them to use their characters and story just as long as they don't butcher it, Udon just writes interesting crap to sell comics, they change the story somewhat to their likings etc, NONE of the things they write can be taken as a characters ability, they know just as much about SF as a fan does, nothing more, they don't get any private information on capcom or work with the producers or anything.

Originally posted by DarkC
Like I said, the SF plot canon guide complied by Tiamat and Saiki.

And it’s not up to you who decides what matters and what doesn’t – Capcom does, and from what they have said in their statements and I have already shown you, a big chunk of it “does” matter, even if storywise they are considered to be non-canon.
Don’t talk as though you have authority over the matter, because you obviously do not.

Judging by how you’ve needlessly brought up Mech Gouki for the fourth time now, I’ll chalk this up to your typical “argument for the sake of argument” idiom.

Who said that the actual course of execution for it was short? Oh yeah, you.
You see a big explosion – and somehow you assume that you can tell an entire story from it; ludicrous, to say the least.

I’m not.

Obviously in terms of specifics – they’re two different game characters, in two different worlds, facing two different opponents. For some strange reason you’re narrowing it down to hard-boiled specifics here simply because I used the word “exact”. Use your common sense, if the conflicts were indeed mirror images of each other you’d have Sq. Enix and Capcom going at it hammer and tongs.

You’re not explaining anything here, I am; the whole point of the similarity between the two conflicts was to show you the disdain for Ryu was almost exactly the same as the disdain for Cloud, the feeling of hatred for Gouki was almost exactly the same as Cloud’s rivalry with Sephiroth, etc.

Originally posted by DarkC
[B]Run-on sentences, babbling without explanation? Yeah, sounds like another rant to me.

First things first – if you want to post to something, then post. If you don’t, then don’t. But don’t parade around pretending as though you didn’t want to post, when you actually did; it’s clear that you wanted to anyway, so don’t try to pull that attitude – not gonna work. Doesn’t make you look good at all either, I might add.

Now, it’s pretty obvious that you’re under the impression that you have to absolutely post to anything and everything I say. Don’t even attempt to pretend otherwise, your actions all over this debate will prove you wrong. See… it’s not like I’m pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to attempt to reply to everything, you are the only one inside that mentality. To make it short – if you see it, you’ll reply to it no matter what it is. Even if there was irrefutable evidence that was provided earlier, you’ll still plough on with your point despite the fact that it has been proven wrong. Look at your “it’s non-canon” points all above. None of them have a point anyways, considering that you have Capcom and Udon’s official statements to vie against if you disagree with them, something which is impossible to refute.

All this doesn’t look good for you, especially considering what I just told you in the post that you just replied to (which, you have seemed to insist on ignoring yet again). You’re still under the considerably obsessive mentality that I’m trying to stop you from posting. Once again, I’m not trying to stop you from posting, period, I told you not to post unless it was at least something productive. You see, as our debate progresses, the less I see from you that is productive at all. You’re wasting your time by posting such content, yet you still do because your obsession demands so. Right now you’re at a point where none of what you’re posting is remotely constructive to the discussion. I’ve advised you not to post unless it was something that would progress the debate, but you ignored me (predictably) and continued anyway.

I just find picks and straws to find something to post? Isn’t that what I just accused you of, more or less? Very rich, considering what you’ve been doing. First of all, look at your reply to the Instant Transmission segment. Despite the fact that it’s pretty obvious it was meant as a joke in relation to what we were discussing (“Instant” hell murder, “Instant” transmission…surely you can see the connection that I was jesting about) you simply have to reply to it anyways, because you do. It’s engraved in you by now. Not only that, you replied to it in a matter which tells me you instantly assumed that I was trying to make a point out of it.

You’re at the point of obsession that you simply have to prove me wrong on something, anything, that you’ll make silly mistakes while trying to do it.

Example, take a look at your “Udon invented this uppercut” argument – any remote Street Fighter fan reading this thread will tell you, “Um, Terry…that’s just his typical gou-shoryuken. 🤨”
Example, take a look at your “Gouki vs Gouken comic” argument – you pieced the frames chronologically wrong for no reason at all, except for the fact that it suited your argument.
Example, take a look at your whole “meter smashing/building destroying” business. Yes, I don’t use them, nor does anyone else – they’re feats, which are entirely original to the comic in the plot-sense, but your point there is moot. I don’t refer to feats, I refer to moves original to Capcom that were portrayed through the comic, in this case, Shungokusatsu.

You accuse me of pointing pointless things (which by now, considering how the debate has developed since then, is moot), but seeing the points that have just been established, where does that leave you?

Literally, nowhere at all.

Onto the the "instant transmission" it wasn't an obvious joke, it seemed like you were trying to prove a point that instant transmission is instant hence the name describes it, just as instant hell murder, how the hell am i supposed to know its a joke? It wasn't funny or even clever it was just stupid, which i thought was another one of your unintelligent posts.

Uhh show me Gouki's gou-shoryuken emitting electricity please. (in canon that is)

I pieced the frames in the wrong order? Wtf are you talking about? What frames? You mean the pages? That is in the RIGHT order , Gouki beats up Gouken, does shungokusatsu, next page full shot of shungokusatsu, next page, shows the dojo.

See, now you're picking and choosing what you want from comics and stating the rest are bs, just the ones you want, the thing is, if a comic contains ridiculous and unrealistic things, it loses all its credibility.

The Udon-originated feats, yes; Capcom-originated abilities (which is what we’re discussing here) no.

Yes, you factually were. You’re basing your entire argument off of the fact that you don’t actually see the prefight, and on how Ryu managed to get up and fight fine. Ryu made an exceptional recovery – he looked fine then, yes, but what about before? That’s what I’m talking about – the fight beforehand does not pertain to anything relating to how Ryu was able to stand up again.

You choose, predictably, to disregard the results of the pre-fight simply because it topples your argument. It’s nice to see that after all this time, you’re still ignorant of my main points. Gouki picking him up by his head, as I said, is but one of quite a few factors which leads me to believe that he was completely owned in the pre-fight. Any other person watching that video will tell you, “Dude what are you talking about, Ryu got pwnt”.

Let’s bring up the mail-order points.
-Ryu is lying facedown in the dirt.
-He is unable to move.
-He is unable to talk.
-Even after Gouki starts raining shakunetsu-hadoukens left and right for the sole purpose of spiting Ryu, Ryu is unable to do anything more than grunt and gasp and open his eyes.
-Even after Gouki picks up Ryu by his head and yells in his face, Ryu is unable to even do so much as retort.

Now, you’d have the burden of somehow vying against all this evidence against you, above. Normally if it had been a ‘good’ fight you’d see Gouki at least panting, staggering, crouching in exhaustion maybe – something of the sort. Do you see this? No, you don’t. You see him leaping around blasting the ground around Ryu happily with shakunetsu-hadoukens, something he would have been incapable of if he were severely fatigued.

So far, nothing points to a “fair fight” beforehand, and everything points to a complete curbstomp on Gouki’s part. The fact that Ryu was able to stand back up after doesn’t refute the above points, at all.

I’m bringing up solid, irrefutable evidence taken from the trailer itself. Where’s yours?

Your sole argument remaining now “Well it could have been a fair fight, Ryu might have landed some shots on Gouki” are just conjecture. No backup, no evidence, just conjecture.

As far as I’m concerned, you’re attempting (with poor results) to cover up for a foolish statement you made earlier.

Not workin’, pal.

SO WHAT? You don't see the fight so you cannot assume that, hell imagine Ryu landed that Hadouken and put Gouki out of commision, he can throw Gouki around by his head, or fire hadoukens all he wants, he didn't dominate Gouki that fight, but if you just didnt see the fight and saw only Ryu throwing Gouki by his head you would claim the same thing. Does it mean its accurate? No.

Originally posted by DarkC
[B]“Because I haven’t been incorrect yet, have I? Can you show me where I’ve been incorrect?”
(*shows you*)
“You’re posting pointless things now, stop”

Not falling for that one, sorry.
You’d better hope that no one reads this part, because you’ve essentially just made yourself the temporary laughingstock of the KMC Games Vs. forums. Here, have a trophy.

HAHA you're obviously frustrated at failing to prove anything, thats why you've been resorting to personally insulting me which I find quite hilarious, its alright, i've dealt with many crybabies before.

Yes, right now.

If you haven’t noticed, I was referring to the entirety of our debate in general.
Quite funny how you, yet again, jump on something totally irrelevant in a poor attempt to prove me wrong on some obscure, nonexistent point.

Do I see an explanation for this outrageous statement?

Any evidence of what I’ve been saying that explicitly ignored the negatives and focusing on the positives? At least you should have some evidence, right?

In all my experience of debating, the people who can do it properly can admit they’re wrong, the ones who can’t make a mockery out of it when they have nothing left.

I “pick” at the similarities/differences between the various Gouki’s in different SF/crossover games, if you haven’t noticed. Not sure how they make Gouki look innately “good”, but that’s just you talking.

I pointed out how a special originating in a MvC game ended up being canon. Does that make Gouki look “good”?
I pointed out how a special actually never shown in a SF is still considered to be “canon”.

Not sure where you’re trying to get at here. (?)

Actually, considering that you missed the point again, I only mentioned the Shin Akuma from CvS2 to bring up how totally and obscenely different he was when in comparison to the actual SF canon.

Originally posted by DarkC
First of all, you’re still not clear on what separating the context here is really significant for, and that’s a very important part of linguistics – something you don’t seem to be keen to understand. Second of all, that’s not what I said, not remotely.

Let’s have a bit of a refresher before proceeding.
[b]B.) The moment, just before death itself, is so intense that it cannot be equaled.

And if you really want to attempt to copy me and pretend that “everyone” will see it that way, evidence so far seems to, yet again, disagree with you.

Now that I’ve corrected you on one instance, let us move on to the actual argument.

Your sole argument is “okay, from what the ancestors described it, it’s:”
“ With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity.”
Which is the base statement we’ve been working on.

Now, before we address the meaning of this statement - you seem to believe that shungokusatsu is “instantaneous”, despite the fact that the next passage directly underneath this one asserts the solid irrefutable fact that:

E.) The course of the shungokusatsu itself takes several hours, in which the victim dies at the very end in the final, hottest hell.

And yet you seem to think that the ancestors named it incorrectly. What is your logic for this? It’s based on a single word in the passage.

“ With that move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a MOMENT of unparalleled intensity.”

You’re focusing on that one word solely, not even the rest of the passage – just that one word, and separating it from its context, ignoring the rest so that it becomes essentially:

“With that move, it was said that one’s own life would be cut off in a moment.”

This then, leads you to form a basis based on this out-of-context statement:

BB.) The Shungokusatsu is ‘said’ to kill the opponent instantaneously.

Now, despite being this obviously wrong, you attempt to place the blame of misinterpretation on some fictional, mythical characters who were the original ones who named the Shungokusatsu. (?) In short, you’re claiming that the official and confirmed lore of Street Fighter is “wrong” or “mistaken” – therefore claiming that the literal translation is ‘wrong’.

This erroneous idea you’re suggesting doesn’t make sense on a few levels.

You realize that it was Capcom themselves who made the translation, right? Right?
Thus, you are refuting Capcom’s definition, not some weird old mythical “ancestors”, and claiming that it’s wrong.
Next, why would they name it and purposely claim it wrong, in a secret “underlying” fashion?

Why would Capcom(not the ancestors) then name it “instant hell murder” when there was nothing, according to canon, “instant” about the course of the move? Simple, the 'instant' is not referring to the course of the move itself.

Considering that there’s nothing else to refer the “instant” to (and disregarding your baseless mockery of this point) other than how it starts up, reasoning points to the start up as instant.

Is there anything else to refer it as “instant”? No.

Case closed – shungokusatsu is instant, but kills very slowly.

So, where does that leave us now, Terry? Where are we supposed to go from here? At this point you’ve weaseled, avoided and purposely misinterpreted just to get an argument across for me to address. Seeing as how your posts are less and less having to do with the argument at hand (at least in terms of productivity) and more to do with your need to continue to post, there’s actually less for you to do as you go on. It wouldn’t be happening if you managed to, say, find actual uproof.

You’ve essentially boxed yourself into a corner. By logic, you’re technically supposed to admit defeat since there’s no more for you to say (because there isn’t anymore, not if you actually wanted to debate properly) but right now we both know that because of your obsession, there’s more of a chance of that happening than Tifa beating Sephiroth in a fight.

You no longer have anywhere to go in this debate, unless you continue to insist on replying with “but it’s non-canon, doesn’t count”, despite the proof that Capcom and Udon believe that some of the “non-canon plot” material does convey the characters properly.

With all that being said, I fully anticipate your next quote-by-quote reply to be predominantly filled with petulance and purposeful ignorance of the proof I have trumped you with.

Away you go now. [/B]

Stop saying "Away you go now" praying that i'm not going to reply, because i always will when i have something to say, keep posting pointless crap like that for all i care you're only wasting your own time.

The fact is, you're changing the words around so it fits the way you want it to, it does NOT say "Part of this move" it says "With this move"

The meaning of "with this move" means its about to describe the MOVE (as a whole, not part of it)

So:

“With this move, one’s own life would be cut off in a moment.” (that doesn't describe the last part of the move, it describes the move as a whole, hence "WITH THIS MOVE" and not "The very end of the move"😉

Describing the move entirely (yes entirely, not partly) : one's own life will be cut off in a moment

You cannot deny that.

If you don't change words around, THAT is its definition

However i see your view, but that only works if you change words around, sorry but its true.

Yes, full what I anticipated – and hey, you used excessive insulting, sarcasm, and trolling too. Why am I not surprised?

The effect of being factually wrong has quite an interesting effect on some people, namely, you.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sorry? Is your intellgience really that low? Udon and Capcom are SEPERATE companies, CAPCOM is the main company that writes the canon Street Fighter story, Udon isn't Udon just takes Capcoms characters and makes comics about them based on Capcoms characters/actual stories, [b] you cannot take Udons comics and use it as proof of how a characters abilities would work in the actual capcom canon story you're clinging onto straws, picking at things to try to prove your point but you don't realize how ridiculous you're being[/b]

Unless you come up with something proper, other than figuratively frothing and raving, maybe even some proof of your own….you’re simply noise.

Originally posted by Terryc250
They're obviously not going to state "The characters clothes aren't canon, the characters, abilities aren't 100% how they work, the characters settings aren't exactly canon" no they're not going to list everything the fact that they basically wrote "The Story is not canon" is enough for anyone to know that the entire comic is non-canon.

You’re trying to coalesce all the factors that matter when writing a comic into one big jumble, when they’re each unique and contribute to the production of the comic in its own way.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Use your brain please, Udon doesn't write Capcoms canon story, nor are they apart of Capcoms company so they basically know just as much about Capcom characters as anyone of us.

Udon doesn’t write a canon story, but they issued a statement that they were not focusing on the story, just the spirit/soul of Street Fighter – in other words, they were trying to capture the essence of SF in a comic.

Originally posted by Terryc250
... Read above, they're obviously not going to state every single detail like clothes, settings, character abilities, and go on a big list of what isn't canon, the fact that they said the story is non canon means the comic is [b]non-canon[/b].

Apparently your obsessive thoughts were not even able to realize that. This is getting almost pathetic.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yet again your intelligence fails, it shows the 3 winners of the tournament, and as they announce they show Gouki doing it on Rugal, you really think everyone is just going to stand there for [b]several hours and just wait?[/b]

Actually, here’s a quick test.
Did that small explosion on the rooftop signify the beginning of the SGS?
The middle, where he’s dragging Rugal through hell?
The end, where he finally emerges from Hell with his victim at his feet?

The correct answer here, Terry, is….”I don’t know”.
You see, we’re not able to form any accurate conjecture based on the fact that we saw one explosion from one rooftop, and in a “still” picture at that. However, in your deluded mind, we are able to draw a conclusion somehow, again an incident I will chalk up to your obsession to continue posting.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Common sense is your friend, use it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Because its not canon dur you must be a true fanboy if you honestly believe Gouki can just jump out of orbit and blow up a meteor a quarter the size of earth.

Also I mentioned not only that it was non-canon, but that I would refuse to use it because it was a feat, not a Capcom-original ability.
You’re jumping at shadows, Terry.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm, did you even look at the picture? Show me Gouki doing an electric shoryuken in canon please.

You like visual aids, right?

There.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Thats a high knee to the face? Wow he can knee people in the face on his toes without bending there face down, oddly enough whenever Gouki uses shungokusatsu he has that exact pose he has:
Quite funny eh? Its the exact pose just as Gouki uses shungokusatsu in canon, however in your eyes its just a high knee, then Gouki somehow launches his shungokusatsu with a hand on the face rofl.
Haha you’re a funny one.

You need to explain to me two things:
1.) The use of the “THWAK” onomatopoeia, a clear sign of a blow struck, when there’s no blows struck by Gouki during the course of the Shungokusatsu, how and no demons in sight.
2.) How you are able to form a wild conjecture using Gouki stretching out his palm.

Also, let’s compare poses, now that you suggested it. See:

All I have to say about the magnitude of incorrectness and ignorance in your argument here is that it generates some pretty good laughs on my part, so thanks for that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Once again you see something totally ridiculous to try to prove a point when normal logical people would see this picture:

Which is why I said, “If you were referring to that picture of Gouken at the bottom of the last frame…”
You’re factually in no position to call me out on this, so don’t even try.

Originally posted by Terryc250
They'd see the picture how it actually is, one arm behind his leg (which is right).[/b]

Originally posted by Terryc250
The victim is supposed to be like melted, and the corpse is supposed to be in horrendous shape,

Originally posted by Terryc250
Gouken's body was totally intact just bloody.

You have to remember, this is Gouken we are talking about, he has a body that can endure about as much as Gouki can (and by 3S he was able to endure the deep pressure of the ocean). If it was someone “normal”, then I suppose they would be totally in shreds. And, yes, you can very see by the huge patches of black all over his body and legs that he was burned.

Originally posted by Terryc250
In regular comic logic, if a long time has pased it would state it, or atleast put it on seperate pages the fact that they were basically on the same panel and page suggests that not much time has passed.

You can’t really tell whether hours, or minutes, has passed; this is what I’m saying, using a comic panel as a time references Is unremarkably faulty – this is why I always try to avoid using it. Your “comic” logic serves no purpose here – in some of the actual comics, such as X-Men (White Crown Phoenix), sometimes even entire years have passed in between a single frame and another.

Oh, and a really rich one:

Originally posted by Terryc250
HAHA you're obviously frustrated at failing to prove anything, thats why you've been resorting to personally insulting me which I find quite hilarious, its alright, i've dealt with many crybabies before.

Personal insults? Ok....and what do you call this nonsense of yours throughout the rest of this post? Again, proving my point for me. We already know you're obsessed by now, Terry. Thanks.

Jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, I see.

Originally posted by Terryc250
So you're saying Gouki's Tenma Gou Zankuukou just makes holes while Ryu's hadouken brings down entire giant buildings? I don't buy it
So Ryu's hadoukens > Gouki's shakunetsu hadoukens? I don't buy that either, the animes are ridiculous imo, and they're non-canon for a reason.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I've already explained to you, however you still carry on trying to look at things strangely to attempt at amping up an Gouki.

Basically your argument simply consists of “it’s non canon”, over and over again, despite the fact that Dark-Jaxx has informed us that the Udon comic shows the canon abilities of the SF’ers – and from the

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yet he doesn't even remember where he heard it from.
... your reference is from another person who doesn't remember where he heard it from.. great

If this is all you can come up with, it’s not going to disprove it in any way, shape, or form.
“But he can’t remember where he heard it!”
He heard it from an official source, otherwise it would have not been included in the guide.
” I'm positive they stated this, although I forget exactly where (it was in an interview, though. Possibly a DVD extra)”

One, he’s not sure where but he’s positive that it does exist.
Two, he did manage to remember that it was from an interview with Capcom, which are quite acceptable as “official”.

I’m definitely not the one clutching at straws here, Terry, oh no.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'm in dead water? Look at yourself, you even believe that non-canon udon comics are 100% their real abilities LOL.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'm not saying its 100% inaccurate but its just as accurate as any other fan-made comic based on Capcoms character/story.

Not sure why you don’t seem to understand that. Also not sure where you got the grounds to form such a violently general observation like this.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The thing about you is, you think Udon has access to private information on Capcom or you think they work with the developers of the SF producer, they don't. Udon is a totally seperate company, Capcom just gives them permission to use their characters, and story just as long as they don't butcher it.

Thing is, Terry, they don’t have to have “access” to “private information on Capcom”, the very idea is ridiculous. The whole deal behind the Udon is that they have to have Capcom’s approval on everything. Tiamat also refers to it briefly.
”…and there are many details in it where Udon (the comic's creators) ask for details from Capcom regarding various things.

There you have it. I guess that’s what you can call “private” information (I’m still not sure why Capcom would keep information on their characters “private” if they, as you said, wanted to prevent Udon from butchering them – it defies logic.) What they don’t know, they ask – any writer basing his material off of someone else’s media does this. If you were aware of the amount of collaboration between Richard A. Knaak and Chris Metzen while Knaak was writing the WarCraft novels, then you’d understand.

Originally posted by Terryc250
All this is simply noise.

Oh, and by the way…I’d advise not copying me. Thanks.

Originally posted by Terryc250
What i said is all true, its normal common sense, again your thinking that Udon and Capcom are in this join together but they're not, they entirely seperate companys

Originally posted by Terryc250
Use your brain here, Capcom only allows them to use their characters and story just as long as they don't butcher it, Udon just writes interesting crap to sell comics, they change the story somewhat to their likings etc,

NONE of the things they write can be taken as a characters ability, they know just as much about SF as a fan does, nothing more, they don't get any private information on capcom or work with the producers or anything.

This entire speech of yours is moot. There’s no need for “private information” concerning characters when there isn’t anything to hide, and while they don’t actually “work” with Capcom directly, they do collaborate with each other concerning a lot of details that would be, at best, classified as “minor”. It happens in whatever crossover media that any companies happen to feel like expanding on.

The very idea that Capcom would just happily let Udon write what they wanted and go with it is beyond ridiculous – Tiamat’s stated that they are checked over and approved – apparently that’s still not good enough for you. Not even if statements from Udon or Capcom strongly suggest against what you believe – no, that’s still not good enough for you.

Goodness, Terry, is there anything good enough for you, besides coming directly from the company themselves?

Originally posted by Terryc250
I asked for "proof" and you showed me Udon comics and a SvC video game......... come on now..... honestly...

It’s interesting how you accuse me of nitpicking (after I accuse you of it, no less) and then bring up obscure, totally irrelevant and outdated points such as this (even after they’re moot) for no apparent reason at all.

Considering that you’re using the Rugal fight from CvS2 now actively in an attempt to prove to me that Shungokusatsu does not take hours (which I have already proven that it does), this sort of contradicts your nonsense words here completely.

A lesson on hasty statements for you, I feel.

Originally posted by Terryc250
And who brought up SvC Orochi Gouki and UDON comic Gouki in the first place? Dear lord you're a genius.
If you're not, then don't bring them up.

How am I supposed to debate with someone who doesn’t even understand when his point is being supported, and when it’s not? The very idea is outrageous.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Logic does, watch the video, they celebrate the 3, then Gouki does shungokusatsu, you really think they're just going to stand there for [b]SEVERAL HOURS and just watch?[/b]

You telling me that you’re forming a conjecture solely because you saw a frame of an explosion ? Again, simply supposition and assumption.

I can almost imagine you attempting to bail out of what you said by falling back to your classic “It’s non canon, disregard it”.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Now you've gone from "effort" to "motives" and clinging as much as you can on to find something similar, Sephiroth and Gouki had entirely different effort, AND motives

I told you not to take things too literally – the parallelisms between the two conflicts, in terms of mentality (yet again, I told you…effort stems from motives…please try to understand that much, at least) are quite remarkable. If you wish to continue to nitpick at this, feel free…but they’re wasted words anyway.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You've gone so far from your original statement that i don't even know what you're talking about or even care anymore.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Stop saying "Away you go now" praying that i'm not going to reply, because i always will when i have something to say

Not only that, this simply just shows anyone and everyone who’s reading how utterly immersed you are in this debate. You even said it yourself, “I always will when I have something to say” – yeah, apparently even when it’s deconstructive to the debate itself and you know it.

Again…digging your own grave. And from the looks of it, enjoying it too.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm thats you there, i've been debating properly until you started getting all childish but i understand because you're frustrated at your lack of capability to prove anything.

And what have you been doing, Terry? What do you call posting the type of deconstructive and circular arguments, not to mention all the trolling, faulty logic, and incorrect references or proof? Do you call this debating? Do you call replying to something that's already been proven, with evidence to boot, without a shadow of a doubt...."debating"?

You clearly have no idea what debating really is. At least, not in this debate.

Go on, how can you defend yourself on that, then justify saying something like this?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Alright so i skipped reading the first couple pointless paragraphs as to save me some time.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Onto the the "instant transmission" it wasn't an obvious joke, it seemed like you were trying to prove a point that instant transmission is instant hence the name describes it, just as instant hell murder, how the hell am i supposed to know its a joke?

You’re at the point where you fail to recognize it as a joke – it’s two different worlds, one where people destroy worlds with beams projected from hands…any purposeful comparison to DBZ is really, really, stupid.

Once more; It’s a joke – now get over it, and stop complaining about it like a petulant child.

Originally posted by Terryc250
It wasn't funny or even clever it was just stupid, which i thought was another one of your unintelligent posts.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I pieced the frames in the wrong order? Wtf are you talking about? What frames? You mean the pages?

Originally posted by Terryc250
See, now you're picking and choosing what you want from comics and stating the rest are bs, just the ones you want, the thing is, if a comic contains ridiculous and unrealistic things, it loses all its credibility.

The Capcom-original specials, shinryuken, shungokusatsu, etc…they can’t be counted as part of the plot itself really, they’re already there in the first place.