Originally posted by Enyalus
The thing with that is, the writer specifically tells us that [b]Palpatine shattered Leia's lightsaber. But for the cooling unit? He "shrugged" off the "impact." No disintegration. No shattering. No argument. It's perfectly clear cut. [/B]
While I'm not sure if he did disintegrate it or he shrugged off the impact of it hitting him but either way it is pretty bad ass imo.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
While I'm not sure if he did disintegrate it or he shrugged off the impact of it hitting him but either way it is pretty bad ass imo.
So let them concede to the textual evidence, say he didn't disintegrate anything, but was badass enough to take a hit on the head from it without any ill effects.
Originally posted by Enyalus
And your stance is hinged on a bad piece of artwork which the writer of the Sourcebook chooses not to support. That's not an argument, either.
I thought I have made this clear, but allow me to reiterate: I am not interested in your personal opinion on this matter. You're not an objective source; nowhere is Dark Empire noted for lackluster or misleading artwork. That you choose to refer to it as 'bad artwork' is your opinion, which (unless supported by facts), I am not interested in. That the Sourcebook doesn't specifically mention the disintegration or destruction of the cooling unit isn't conclusive proof that it didn't happen. This argument isn't going to get you anywhere.
Originally posted by Gideon
I thought I have made this clear, but allow me to reiterate: I am not interested in your personal opinion on this matter. You're not an objective source; nowhere is Dark Empire noted for lackluster or misleading artwork. That you choose to refer to it as 'bad artwork' is your opinion, which (unless supported by facts), I am not interested in. That the Sourcebook doesn't specifically mention the disintegration or destruction of the cooling unit isn't conclusive proof that it didn't happen. This argument isn't going to get you anywhere.
Since when can someone prove a negative? it also DOES NOT mention the disentegration of the cooling unit. It would be far easier for you to offer further proof that it DID happen then it would be for us to offer further proof that it DIDN'T happen by the definition of proof. If we look at the same picture, you say it looks like disintegration, i say it looks like its fading the artwork to make sidious the focus of the panel, why should we automatically take your interpretation of the piece?
In all fairness, and i'm serious about this, i want to hear what you think of this proposal: I'm going to say that..... oh, i dunno (there are a lot of possible examples of what i'm about to say, and that makes it even more far-fetched) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1YbFnkZwZk&feature=related
watch this video, at the 55 second to 60 second mark. han shoots first.
We all know this, however, if you watch it, it doesn't look ANYTHING like Greedo getting hit with a blaster as we know it. It looks like Han was holding his blaster, gestured with his hand, and must have used have triggered some kind of explosive to kill greedo. (just watch it on silent, which is what you get in a comic book)
We know he didn't use an explosive, but it LOOKS that way. There is no source in star wars that says. han shot greedo with a blaster and DIDN'T use an explosive on him. It just says. Han shot greedo. It's impossible to prove he didn't blow him up too.
The logic of the last 3 paragraphs is ridiculous, but my point is, that is almost what this "you can't prove he didn't disintegrate it, cause thats what it looks like" logic is coming across as.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgl_DU7inEk&feature=related
This is what will happen to Palps in this battle rofl
jk, jk
Originally posted by truejedi
Since when can someone prove a negative?
It was his contention all along, truejedi, I suggest you pay attention. He's spent all this time saying "NO IT DID NOT DISINTEGRATE" and attempted to use the lack of a statement in the sourcebook as proof.
it also DOES NOT mention the disentegration of the cooling unit.
We also don't ever see or hear of people taking a shit in the whole of canon. Guess since it isn't mentioned, though, it doesn't happen.
It would be far easier for you to offer further proof that it DID happen then it would be for us to offer further proof that it DIDN'T happen by the definition of proof.
Again, read the argument. Your pal has spent the past several pages throwing the sourcebook in my face, trying so desperately to prove that the disintegration didn't happen due to the lack of elaboration. The statement was designed to impress us: that Palpatine, an enfeebled octogenarian, took a ton of metal to the head and walked away unscathed? Many times more impressive, to me, than a Force user disintegrating something. Especially when his previously established inferior can do it (Bane).
If we look at the same picture, you say it looks like disintegration, i say it looks like its fading the artwork to make sidious the focus of the panel, why should we automatically take your interpretation of the piece?
Then I would point out that if it were trying to emphasize the Emperor, why would it leave bits and pieces of its undercarriage in the picture at all. And then you'd say: "well... um... he clearly just forgot to move the last brushstrokes to cover the disconnected pieces." And then I'd put you on ignore.
In all fairness, and i'm serious about this, i want to hear what you think of this proposal: I'm going to say that..... oh, i dunno (there are a lot of possible examples of what i'm about to say, and that makes it even more far-fetched) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1YbFnkZwZk&feature=related
watch this video, at the 55 second to 60 second mark. han shoots first.We all know this, however, if you watch it, it doesn't look ANYTHING like Greedo getting hit with a blaster as we know it. It looks like Han was holding his blaster, gestured with his hand, and must have used have triggered some kind of explosive to kill greedo. (just watch it on silent, which is what you get in a comic book)
We know he didn't use an explosive, but it LOOKS that way. There is no source in star wars that says. han shot greedo with a blaster and DIDN'T use an explosive on him. It just says. Han shot greedo. It's impossible to prove he didn't blow him up too.
The logic of the last 3 paragraphs is ridiculous, but my point is, that is almost what this "you can't prove he didn't disintegrate it, cause thats what it looks like" logic is coming across as.
Maybe you'd have a point if it actually showed Han throwing an explosive. We're not inferring disintegration, we're telling you that it shows the damn thing coming apart. But thank you for recognising how ridiculous your syllogism was.
Originally posted by Gideon
It was his contention all along, truejedi, I suggest you pay attention. He's spent all this time saying "NO IT DID NOT DISINTEGRATE" and attempted to use the lack of a statement in the sourcebook as proof.
no, my point is, if it can't be proved that he DID do it, how can we make the assumption. If he's trying to PROVE that it didn't happen, then that's a fallacy as well. However, the idea that it DID happen can't be proved either. Comic books are ambiguous that way. If sids had said. "ha ha, you just hit me with a piece of metal, no big deal, i'll just disintegrate it!!!!" then that would have been conclusive evidence of what is happening there.
There is enough ambiguity in that picture however, to keep it far from provable that sidious did that. Its not like saying "Palpatine threw pods at Yoda" That's undeniable fact. The picture can be interpreted more than one way, and WITHOUT much of a stretch. (THAT'S the key to my whole picture. I'm not one to completely ignore visual evidence, but that picture is EASILY intepreted in more than one way)
Again, read the argument. Your pal has spent the past several pages throwing the sourcebook in my face, trying so desperately to prove that the disintegration didn't happen due to the lack of elaboration. The statement was designed to impress us: that Palpatine, an enfeebled octogenarian, took a ton of metal to the head and walked away unscathed? Many times more impressive, to me, than a Force user disintegrating something. Especially when his previously established inferior can do it (Bane).
If palpatine got hit in the head with a metal cooling unit, walked away okay, and the unit shattered due to impact, that's incredibly impressive. I'm not trying to cut sidious down, i'm trying to point out that we can't give him THAT ONE FEAT. Sidious is the most powerful DLOTS of all time, and DE sidious has absolutely NO REASON to be an inferior to ROTS or ROTJ sidiuos. None. Age doesn't make a difference as we see with Yoda. Only THAT ONE FEAT i'm trying to deny him, because i don't think there is nearly enough evidence to assume that its even possible. We have never seen a force power that can disintegrate metal, and i don't think there is enough evidence to credit sidious with one.
Then I would point out that if it were trying to emphasize the Emperor, why would it leave bits and pieces of its undercarriage in the picture at all. And then you'd say: "well... um... he clearly just forgot to move the last brushstrokes to cover the disconnected pieces." And then I'd put you on ignore.
a special effect gideon. Maybe it was a piece of glass on the unit that shattered, the picture shows absolutely NO detail of what the cooling unit is made of. (is the sourcebook the only source we have calling it steel anyway?) Maybe it WAS the remnants of the beam it came off of. Just different intepretations. Each one can be refuted, just as your intepretation can. I'm going for a more broad goal here.
Maybe you'd have a point if it actually showed Han throwing an explosive. We're not inferring disintegration, we're telling you that it shows the damn thing coming apart. But thank you for recognising how ridiculous your syllogism was.
your certainly welcome, i would never offer such a thing as an argument in a debate. If you aren't inferring that Sidious can disintegrate metal BY USING THE FORCE, then you were never trying to claim what i'm trying to disprove and i am indeed wasting my time, but i believe the claim that he can disintegrate metal using the force has been made in the past.
Buddy, you lost me right when you said "age doesn't make a difference." I guess I forgot where old people can take a ton of machinery to the head and walk around like no trouble. Wow, lol, I guess Skywalker was ridiculously weak -- I mean, the guy was knocked out with a gaffi stick. He's probably in perpetual embarrassment.
Originally posted by GideonWhile on a dark side world, when a nine-hundred year-old, two-foot Jedi of slightly lesser relative Force-ability fell several hundred feet onto his back, then got up and ran? That would surprise you?
The statement was designed to impress us: that Palpatine, an enfeebled octogenarian, took a ton of metal to the head and walked away unscathed?
Powerful Force-users can do absurd things with their physical forms by augmenting or enveloping themselves in the Force.
Many times more impressive, to me, than a Force user disintegrating something. Especially when his previously established inferior can do it (Bane).1) This isn't about impressing you, or making Sidious look better or worse; at least not to me. It's about ascertaining the truth, and doing away with a falsehood that dictated our (even my) arguments. None of you ever corrected me when I mistakenly claimed that Sidious used his Sith lightning to disintegrate a lightsaber and a "large metal object."
2) Just because Bane can do it doesn't mean Palpatine can, too.
Originally posted by Faunus
While on a dark side world, when a nine-hundred year-old, two-foot Jedi of slightly lesser relative Force-ability fell several hundred feet onto his back, then got up and ran? That would surprise you?
Absolutely, since Yoda's species has demonstrated a ridiculously durable physiology. Palpatine is physically human, physically enfeebled due to the toll of his dark side energies. You can't compare them, Faunus.
1) This isn't about impressing you, or making Sidious look better or worse; at least not to me. It's about ascertaining the truth, and doing away with a falsehood that dictated our (even my) arguments. None of you ever corrected me when I mistakenly claimed that Sidious used his Sith lightning to disintegrate a lightsaber and a "large metal object."
Actually, I never claimed that Palpatine could disintegrate lightsaber pommels or large objects with his lightning. That I didn't manage to correct you is to be held against me? You caught me, Faunus. I subverted facts to ensnare the unsuspecting in my ploy to promote Sidious!
2) Just because Bane can do it doesn't mean Palpatine can, too.
Haven't you heard? [Michael Jordan] Anything Bane can do, Sids can do better.[/Michael Jordan]
Palpatine is confirmed to be stronger than Bane and has had decades longer to master Force lightning, which is a common Force technique. Going down that road at all, Faunus, will just lead to a dark and ugly fate for you.
Originally posted by GideonYoda needs a cane to walk; apart from the ageing, what about his physiology makes him "ridiculously durable?" It's his use of the Force. Dooku has the physical conditioning of a man half his age; you think that alone allowed him to stop over-handed blows from Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time? Mace doesn't survive getting slammed into trees and rocket-proof akk hounds because his abs are just awesome, nor does he rip through durasteel under sheer muscle strength. You think TPM Obi-Wan survived his several-story fall from the catwalks because he drank a lot of milk?
Absolutely, since Yoda's species has demonstrated a ridiculously durable physiology. Palpatine is physically human, physically enfeebled due to the toll of his dark side energies. You can't compare them, Faunus.
Force-users can augment themselves in innumerable ways; I thought this was common knowledge.
Actually, I never claimed that Palpatine could disintegrate lightsaber pommels or large objects with his lightning. That I didn't manage to correct you is to be held against me? You caught me, Faunus. I subverted facts to ensnare the unsuspecting in my ploy to promote Sidious!Calm yourself. I said nothing of the sort; I'm not expecting you to remember every panel of every comic you've ever read. My point was that such misinformation simply shouldn't be so rampant here.
Haven't you heard?You're Supergirl?
[Michael Jordan] Anything Bane can do, Sids can do better.[/Michael Jordan]I thought that was Mia Ham, and Jordan just chilled in the commercials...
Palpatine is confirmed to be stronger than Bane and has had decades longer to master Force lightning, which is a common Force technique.Palpatine has demonstrated greater control of his lightning than Bane has, not greater potency.
Going down that road at all, Faunus, will just lead to a dark and ugly fate for you.I cower in fear.
Originally posted by Faunus
Yoda needs a cane to walk; apart from the ageing, what about his physiology makes him "ridiculously durable?" It's his use of the Force. Dooku has the physical conditioning of a man half his age; you think that alone allowed him to stop over-handed blows from Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time? Mace doesn't survive getting slammed into trees and rocket-proof akk hounds because his abs are just awesome, nor does he rip through durasteel under sheer muscle strength. You think TPM Obi-Wan survived his several-story fall from the catwalks because he drank a lot of milk?Force-users can augment themselves in innumerable ways; I thought this was common knowledge.
"Duh" doesn't begin to cover this, Faunus. That Yoda fell several stories, got up, and ran isn't comparable to the Emperor taking a ton of steel to the cranium and "shrugging it off." Human physiology is much different than alien physiology; Yoda lived to be nine hundred years old -- if it is your assertion that his body handled the rigors of incredibly advanced age strictly on the basis of Force aptitude, then Yoda and Vodo Siosk-Baas are far more powerful than the likes of Luke Skywalker, the Emperor, and Count Dooku.
Palpatine, meanwhile, unlike either Dooku or Yoda, was enfeebled physically by the ravaging effects of the dark side. A ton of metal at terminal velocity struck him right on the head and he didn't so much as bat an eye.
Calm yourself. I said nothing of the sort; I'm not expecting you to remember every panel of every comic you've ever read. My point was that such misinformation simply shouldn't be so rampant here.
Misinformation isn't rampant here.
You're Supergirl?
Dayjob.
I thought that was Mia Ham, and Jordan just chilled in the commercials...
They both look alike to me.
Palpatine has demonstrated greater control of his lightning than Bane has, not greater potency.
Say wha -- ?
Um... Faunus... Palpatine... is more powerful than Bane... Palpatine has... lived longer than Bane... Force lightning... is a common application of the Force... for dark siders... trying to insinuate that Bane's potency is greater (when he is, in fact, weaker) is... dumb.
I cower in fear.
You should. Honestly, man, I hold you and Advent on a pedastel, but sometimes I wonder what illegal substances you two partake in.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Palpatine DID turn three begins into charred bones simultaneously...I'd put that as a bit more potent than burning a rider to ash and his Drexl to a charred hulk
Originally posted by GideonWay to ignore Mace Windu and noob-Kenobi.
"Duh" doesn't begin to cover this, Faunus. That Yoda fell several stories, got up, and ran isn't comparable to the Emperor taking a ton of steel to the cranium and "shrugging it off." Human physiology is much different than alien physiology; Yoda lived to be nine hundred years old -- if it is your assertion that his body handled the rigors of incredibly advanced age strictly on the basis of Force aptitude, then Yoda and Vodo Siosk-Baas are far more powerful than the likes of Luke Skywalker, the Emperor, and Count Dooku.
Palpatine, meanwhile, unlike either Dooku or Yoda, was enfeebled physically by the ravaging effects of the dark side. A ton of metal at terminal velocity struck him right on the head and he didn't so much as bat an eye.And the omniscient narrator of the Sourcebook is fine with that.
Canon >>> Your opinion.
Misinformation isn't rampant here.Everything going on before TFU came out, including you claiming that he pulled down a Star Destroyer because the trailer showed it, the vast majority of people here believing various things about Mace Windu's telekinetic displays in Shatterpoint, and what was basically the unwitting spread of lies by even myself count as misinformation.
Dayjob.I love your work.
They both look alike to me.You bring new meaning to the phrase "racially colorblind."
Say wha -- ?Somehow, you say that their is a possibility that Dooku's telekinesis is more "refined" than Palpatine's (while throwing in several statements detailing how much weaker he is overall), and managed to come to the conclusion that Kyp Durron - who replicated a feat that knocked Luke Skywalker out - has less raw power than the Emperor, despite the latter never having displayed telekinesis on such a scale, and yet you have trouble believing that Darth Bane's lightning is more potent, despite the fact that he has done things with it - ruined stuff - that Palpatine has not?Um... Faunus... Palpatine... is more powerful than Bane... Palpatine has... lived longer than Bane... Force lightning... is a common application of the Force... for dark siders... trying to insinuate that Bane's potency is greater (when he is, in fact, weaker) is... dumb.
...
You should. Honestly, man, I hold you and Advent on a pedastel,This shall be saved, to sate my temporarily dulled ego.
but sometimes I wonder what illegal substances you two partake in.Maybe our food is spiked. I mean, y'know, that might be the only reason we make sense.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes, that's what we were arguing, until you decided to use a red herring to throw in something completely irrelevant:
"But then again, why would he even try to melt down metal using his force lightning, if he can make about everything disappear in a nice hole in space-time, which he can summon "with a mere thought"?"And, incase you didn't realize, this is a VS fight, and if you weren't suggesting that he couldn't simply use a Force Storm here, there's absolutely no need for you to post such an irrelevant thought.
Excuse me, oh master of rhetoric. As far as I recall, it was you, who did ask Lightsnake for proof that Sidious can annihilate metal with his force lightning. That had what to do with the thread exactly? I mean, hey, I know that Lightsnake assumed Sidious could probably destroy lightsabers in a similar fashion to what he did with the ancient lightsaber Leia had in her hand. Point is that he didn't use force lightning to do it.
So the matter of fact is, that you started this entire skirmish [without having a reason] and now – facing a situation in which you can't win it because it has simply outgrown you – you're trying to blame me for this mess. Doesn't work.
Way to go. Remember this:
"And if that should be the case, and those people were wearing metal armor, can it be that he is actually capable of melting metal with his force lightning?"Thank you for showing your inconsistency. See, that's the problem with arguing for the sake of arguing - you can't always be right. Especially when you argue both sides of the same issue during the same debate.
Thanks for ignoring the “if“ there, newbie. Because, apparently, I had a reason for putting it right there, you know? I wasn't sure at that moment what ST armor is made of hence I checked it when I had time and corected my prior if-statement myself. That's an inconsisty?
Not that it matters at all, as the highest form of canon shows him using force lightning through solid metal objects:
Vader's helmet consists of Durasteel. And well, newbie, having a look at the picture and noticing the little gas cloud at the back of Vader's helmet I would actually have to suggest that either the Durasteel started to vaporize or this is oxygen released from Vader's helmet which would mean that somebody did burn a hole into this thing using force lightning. Which would of course both lead to the conclusion that the Emperor is capable of melting metal with his force lightning.
And I'm arguing both sides of the same issue? Where exactly? Since Sidious being able to destroy metal objects [with or without force lightning] doesn't even remotely touch my case, I don't see how this would affect my previous arguments. Nor does the idea that he's superior to Bane affect my previous stance.
So we have stormtrooper armor not being metal, the tower in TFU not being disintegrated, and the cooling unit in DE not being disintegrated, and certainly not by Force Lightning. Guess what that means? Since there's zero evidence to support that Darth Sidious' lightning can distingerate metal, he cannot.
What a [sarcasm]brilliant[/sarcasm] take on the issue, newbie. So what? Absence of proof is now proof of absence. Great premise to argue from. So Bane isn't capable of taking a crap, because there is zero evidence to support that he can?
Obviously it doesn't work like that. And there are basically two ways to solve the problem:
a) The scientific way going like this: Naturally you won't be able to melt metal with any form of electricity, because – as you've already pointed out – metal would conduct the electricity. So either one has to put out so much power that the metal heats up and starts melting, or we have to assume that metal in the SW universe doesn't conduct electricity in the same manner that metal in our universe does the job (which is supported by the fact that they produce material by merging different materials on a molecular level). Assuming the latter, we technically have no idea if it's easier to melt metal [like the technobeasts Bane encountered] or the plastoid armor [Stormtroopers Sidious encountered]. So we would be unable to solve the issue. Assuming the first [that you just need enough power to do the job] we would be confronted with a pile of sources directly stating that Sidious [even as of RotS] is more powerful than Darth Bane. Which would just leave us with the question if a more powerful force user can reproduce of a less powerful one.
b) The narrative way is basically doing the same, not taking any science into consideration, would immediatly lead to the question if the more powerful can reproduce the feat of a less powerful being?
In both cases, I'm afraid, you don't have an argument. Unless you want to construct some weird case that allows Bane to wield more powerful lightning while being less powerful than Sidious at the same time.
Another red herring. Do you think you can manage to stay on topic? Bane has killed multiple people with his Force Lightning. It isn't a stretch to say he could have killed more. Sidious has never disintegrated metal with his Force Lightning. It is a stretch to say that he could, since there is no evidence to support that conclusion.
So it's no stretch to assume that somebody who is capable of killing people with force lightning is capable of doing the same to more than 500 people in body armor simultaneously? Really, newbie. If that's logic in your personal universe, I don't get why it's a stretch to assume that somebody who reduced people to ashes with his lightning and who fried 576 Stormtroopers in full armor sets simultaneously can generate enough power with his force lightning to melt metal. But as I said before: double standard.
That's your interpretation of events. In the picture, it doesn't even look as though it has struck him yet - as though its still above his head and falling. Not to mention that pictures aren't always accurate in conveying the writer's intentions. Which is why he needed to explain what happened in the Sourcebook, stating specifically that he shrugged it off, and that it hit him. No where does he add, "Sidious disintegrated the cooling unit" or anything of the sort. So no, I'm sorry, but you're version of events are wrong.
Oh god damn it, newbie. The picture is „my interpretation“ of events? Nope. The picture does represent the facts. The Sourcebook is an interpretation of the events, which doesn't even contradict what we see in the picture. So what?
What you're doing is no different from Nebaris' arguments regarding PT and OT Jedi not being as fast or as powerful as other characters simply because in the movies they aren't depicted that way. And regardless of what you try to argue, no one here is buying it. Sidious doesn't disintegrate it, or it would have been stated on panel or in the Sourcebook. It isn't. It's just a poor drawing.
Hilarious. What you're doing, newbie, is producing the exact oposite of Nebaris' arguments, assuming that every depiction of characters is actually wrong and we need an explanation for every damn thing we just see. And guess what: It's equally fallacious. Unless you can come up with anything that proofs the comic wrong [and gosh: You can't. Because all sources mentioning the event are based on the comic, and the one you've listed doesn't even contradict the idea that Sidious did desintegrate the cooling unit] you don't have anything to argue here. With the probable exception that Sidious didn't use force lightning to do the job, which would be stupid enough – considering that nobody ever claimed he did it with force lightning.
The side with the debris falling off of it is the same side which Leia ripped out of the beam. That's why there are fissures in it, that's why there are the 'dots' which look like it is disintegrating.
Oh cool. As stupid interpretation of the source material is enough, Mr Enyalus now has to lie to manage to get his point through.
[img]http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/impact.jpg[/quote]
The left side of the cooling unit in this picture is the one Leia did damage by dropping it on Sidious. So can you please tell me where the structural damage on the lower half is coming from, given that – while dropping in the previous pictures – the cooling unit is completely intact?
As for the explosion, that's obviously the 'impact' that the Sourcebook writer mentions. And as for the 'energy' he's generating, have you bothered to read Dark Empire? While on Byss, in at least three entire pages, he is depicted as having a green or yellow glow coming from inside of his robes.
Lmao, newbie. So let me rephrase that for you: You believe, that there is an explosion happening, yet you don't believe that the energy Sidious is constantly shown to wield around has anything to do with that explosion? Is there some sort of self-destruction mechanism forged into cooling units in the SW universe that does detonate them upon impact on Sith Lords? Or did Sidious indeed rip the thing into pieces?