Well, jump starting the topic on the subject that is Vader...
I feel that, based on the fact that he is supposed to 80% of the Emperor, and based on our conclusion that sids is WTFAWESOME for the most part, it seems that would place Vader solidly in the top ten.
I imagine the problem with that is that, when compared to many other sith, Vader is a bit of a brute, he lacks any of the unique techniques common among most of the other top tiered characters
Top ten? Perhaps. Even within the confines of his suit, Vader possesses abundant power. Nick Rosti believes that Vader would utterly annihilate the great Kar Vastor, for example, and Vader also overloads and destroys a lightsaber through sheer force of will (not the grip, mind you, but the blade).
As you say, he's not a scholar. There are many, many Sith whose knowledge of the dark side exceeds his own.
Originally posted by Gideon
Top ten? Perhaps. Even within the confines of his suit, Vader possesses abundant power. Nick Rosti believes that Vader would utterly annihilate the great Kar Vastor, for example, and Vader also overloads and destroys a lightsaber through sheer force of will (not the grip, mind you, but the blade).As you say, he's not a scholar. There are many, many Sith whose knowledge of the dark side exceeds his own.
Well, I tend to look at Vader the same way I do Starkiller, both are massively powerful characters, but they're powerful in what amount to basic techniques. So I wonder what all that power is supposed to amount to when faced with someone that can put their body back together, shoot beams of energy, force him to see his greatest nightmare, or mask their presence all together.
Originally posted by LightsnakeExcept that he's rarely demonstrated such surpassing mastery of the Force. The potency of his lightning has yet to matched, on account of him disintegrating a rather large chunk of metal with it, but Darth Bane has used it on a larger scale. His telekinesis is impressive, but again, Darth Bane has used it far more effectively and destructively, and several other characters have used it more efficiently or simply on a much greater level. He's fast, but even then, Bane has arguably moved just as fast, if not faster, having momentarily fought at speeds so great that the deadliest of the dark side students at the time couldn't even see him. He moved faster than the Force-aided eye could see. I mean, most of the opinions formulated about Sidious come from quotes with often ambiguous wording and a third-person POV. And you all take them as gospel. Meanwhile, such characters such as Tobin and Traya are somehow worthless as sources of relevant knowledge. The double-standards are absurd.
I'll agree with you that he's not invincible or infalliable, but his mastery over the Dark Side pretty much surpassed Bane's or any other Sith's.
That said, I completely agree Pwned61's brief but concise summary. Consider that mind.
Don't forget Taven's got a history of misrepresenting/aggrandizing or outright lying....honestly. I've yet to see what constitutes Bane's superior mastery...or anyone elseNo offense, and I know I tend to go after you on this fairly often, but much of your analysis of his argument was simply you bashing him and telling him to leave, etc. His was a well-formulated argument, in my eyes, and he did refute one of Gideon's points, which focused on a character that I had never heard of, and therefore had no relevant knowledge of. I may be missing several things because I'm not nearly as well-versed in this stuff as you guys are, but so far I see a solid argument.
Originally posted by Faunus
Meanwhile, such characters such as Tobin and Traya are somehow worthless as sources of relevant knowledge. The double-standards are absurd.
Being the essence of perfection, I am immune to double standards. You may correct me if I'm wrong (which I cannot be!), but it is my understanding, sir, that Colonel Tobin was contradicted by the loading screen, speaking on topics of which he wasn't present to ascertain nor is there any knowledge of documentation regarding the specific feats, and lastly, he was under the thrall of the very person whom he was fellating. If, sir, that is the case: the situation is completely different. The historical council of a vast galactic hyperpower with access to remarkable sources of information (the details regarding Sidious's plots, in particular) is a far greater source than Colonel Tobin. It's really not close at all.
As far as Traya is concerned, she is a Sith historian and I have always valued her opinion. But if, as I have on numerous occasions, refused to take Palpatine at his word due to his reputation as a narcissist and liar, what has Traya done to deserve better treatment?
Now, assess Vader, sir!
Originally posted by FaunusNo offense, and I know I tend to go after you on this fairly often, but much of your analysis of his argument was simply you bashing him and telling him to leave, etc. His was a well-formulated argument, in my eyes, and he did refute one of Gideon's points, which focused on a character that I had never heard of, and therefore had no relevant knowledge of. I may be missing several things because I'm not nearly as well-versed in this stuff as you guys are, but so far I see a solid argument.
my problem with neb was how off-topic he went, and how he seems to beat a dead horse when it comes to bane. Its his one topic, he sure as heck BETTER be good at it. But that aside, Bane's supposed "mastery" of different aspect of the force have to be taken into context. We simply have no way of comparing the combatants in his era with the combatants from the ROTS era. So anyone he defeated, or anyone who "couldn't see him" could be dismissed as being on a lower tier all together than every combatant from ROTS. There is NO PROOF that it is otherwise, though we all seem to believe they were probably about even. Neb still can't prove they were. His subatomic manipulation argument is stupid, because every sith who ever made a holocron (and presumably jedi too) had to make it that way. It was simply how they were made. Its like talking up the skill of a jedi for "manipulating the force in creating a lightsaber" . That shows top tier right there!
(i want to point out, i'm not saying neb is wrong about bane. I'm just saying, we can't prove he was above sidious. And in defense of sidious, we have lucas saying he was the most powerful sith lord in history" we have numerous sources, including vader, and a narrator calling him the strongest sith in history, and we have a simple a>b>c>d>e progression in the sith order that BANE DESIGNED that would logically put him at the very bottom of it (once again, i'm not saying i believe that, i'm saying the evidence for sidious being the most powerful looks way more convincing than the evidence for bane)
My final word on sidious is this: He ruled the GALAXY for 20 years. He, being the puppet master, is solely responsible for next to DESTROYING a jedi order that numbered over 10,000 jedi at the beginning of the clone wars. He ended a republic that had been in place for over a millenia. He is by far the most successful sith in history. He is certainly a top tier combatant, (though combat is certainly not where his skills ended.) His lightsaber skills can be called into question: there is a simple quote i heard once "those who teach, cannot do" and that very well may be true of his teaching maul his skills with a lightsaber. In every fight we know of, Sidious either is disarmed, or opts out of his saber attack to use the force instead.
While i wonder how he would do against a number of opponents(Mace, Yoda, Luke, ) none of them, with the exception of possibly LOTF luke would have a clear cut advantage over him.
I would like to throw out the possibility that DE sidious is no more powerful than ROTJ sidious, because he was never in a position where he needed to destroy a bunch of ships with a force storm in those situations. Is it somewhere stated that Sidious is more powerful in DE, than ROTJ? or is it assumed by his actions? I can't see sidious going and learning new techniques after regaining his cloned body before going forth to attack the alliance, but i could be wrong on that.
So therefore, i think the suddeness of sidious's death at the hands of a wounded Vader, (whom sidious apparently could not feel the conflict within) hurts sidious's overall legacy, though none of us believe vader could destroy sidious himself,or he would have done so long before. (kinda makes you wonder why he never tried to chuck him down a reactor before the luke incident....)
So sidious would be a match for any combatant in the mythos (mythos with our allowed domain of course), Though if we are going to rank them, i would put him a decided #2 behind only LOTF luke.
Faunus, The problem isn't that Taven, or whatever Nebris is calling himself these days, can't make a good argument. Gideon has said time and time again the guy is smart, and can put together a good argument as well as pick at others by exploiting the smallest details. The problem is that he doesn't really believe what he's saying, or at least not to a great extent, rather, I believe that he argues out of spite more than anything. He puts together these theories that don't really hold water, and lack any sources backing them up, and continue to present them as fact. The one that really sticks out in my mind was the whole bit about how awesome Sion is because he cut off Traya's hand, that somehow her skill in other areas of the force translated to her having super pre-cog or something. course he didn't have any other examples to back that up, and anything to the contrary is just an anomaly.
/rant
More on topic, having thought it over I'm hesitant to put Vader in the top ten. He might win in a force arm wrestling match, but he seems lacking in all out combat against foes with more diversity.
Originally posted by GideonWhere exactly did vader overload a saber blade?
Top ten? Perhaps. Even within the confines of his suit, Vader possesses abundant power. Nick Rosti believes that Vader would utterly annihilate the great Kar Vastor, for example, and Vader also overloads and destroys a lightsaber through sheer force of will (not the grip, mind you, but the blade).
Originally posted by Faunus
Except that he's rarely demonstrated such surpassing mastery of the Force. The potency of his lightning has yet to matched, on account of him disintegrating a rather large chunk of metal with it, but Darth Bane has used it on a larger scale. His telekinesis is impressive, but again, Darth Bane has used it far more effectively and destructively, and several other characters have used it more efficiently or simply on a much greater level. He's fast, but even then, Bane has arguably moved just as fast, if not faster, having momentarily fought at speeds so great that the deadliest of the dark side students at the time couldn't even see him. He moved faster than the Force-aided eye could see. I mean, most of the opinions formulated about Sidious come from quotes with often ambiguous wording and a third-person POV. And you all take them as gospel. Meanwhile, such characters such as Tobin and Traya are somehow worthless as sources of relevant knowledge. The double-standards are absurd.
That said, I completely agree Pwned61's brief but concise summary. Consider that mind.No offense, and I know I tend to go after you on this fairly often, but much of your analysis of his argument was simply you bashing him and telling him to leave, etc.
His was a well-formulated argument, in my eyes, and he did refute one of Gideon's points, which focused on a character that I had never heard of, and therefore had no relevant knowledge of. I may be missing several things because I'm not nearly as well-versed in this stuff as you guys are, but so far I see a solid argument.
I've argued for Bane in certain cases a few times myself, but Nebaris has gotten to the extent where Bane is essentially the unbeatable God of Star Wars and it's gotten more than a bit old.
Nicely put, gentlemen. As far as Nebaris is concerned, he has posted here without invitation or acceptance. I am more than happy to accept opinions that do not match my own, but as someone who has a history of antagonism with multiple members, he is held under great scrutiny. I'm not going to let him turn this thread into an area to flame or bait. Should he be inclined to post here, he will conduct himself in a gracious manner. Moreover, I am disinclined to continue an argument with him that consists of him trying to expose fabricated fallibility within my sources and turning around and taking ridiculously vague quotes (such as the one he provided just before I placed him on ignore) and jumping to equally ridiculous conclusions. Ironically, the very same thing he accuses me of doing.
As far as Vader is concerned, his raw power is on par or exceeding the majority of the Sith Lords that we have seen. He casually obliterates the blade of Aurra Sing's lightsaber through sheer force of will, in one instance. Moreover, he casually inflicts monumental damage to the warriors and propery on Kashyyyk with his impressive telekinesis. Moreover, he demonstrates an even greater expertise with telekinesis than Count Dooku, casually using the Force to summon debris and the environment as psychokinetic missiles, while all the while engaging in his swordplay. When General Rahm Kota leaps at Vader to strike him down when the Dark Lord invades Corellia to take the wayward Senators before the Emperor, Vader casually snatches Kota out of the air with the Force -- the same General who demonstrated himself to be a master of redirecting and deflecting intangible Force assaults and deflecting Sith lightning, which the Complete Visual Dictionary regards as "virtually impossible." When Sing attacks Vader upon being baited, Vader casually evades her attacks (Sing being reputed for lithe and agile footwork; she would later challenge Jacen Solo) and eventually puts her to the ground with a casual telekinetic shove that not only keeps her pinned to the floor, but nearly knocks the guards off their feet in the distant corridor. All the while keeping his lightsaber deactivated on his belt.
@Faunus.
As for palpatines speed, he and skywalker's speed(during the eclipse duel) were described as being so fast that they appeared invisible to the naked eye.
While i understand you stated that the dark side students couldn't see bane during his duel, i don't really agree that they were " that powerful" of any sort. Why?
Because I recall those "top tier students"(stated by Kopecz to be the elite that are sent out to war) being slaughtered by children who swung their lightsabers like monkeys(jedi vs sith) and students that get promoted to dark lord after mere months of training.
I think the full Sith Academy training on Korriban was designed to last two years. If someone can correct me on that, please do.
As far as my DE Sidious theory, I'll try to gather more info on that and expand tomorrow or Thursday evening. I'll also be posting a Gideon/Crimzon-like synopsis of my opinion on Vader.
Originally posted by LS
and Bane seems to be remarkably slower in Ro2 to the extent that Johun effing Othone of all people can not only see him, but stop him from bisecting a hapless Ithorian
He was being amped by battle meditation, which grants far superior clarity as opposed to being without it. Let's not forget that he [Bane] was fending off four lightsaber blades at once, three being wielded by Jedi Masters, at least one who was on the High Council, and the other being the Jedi Battlemaster...all amped by battle meditation.
I would say that takes a fair bit of speed, if not to the level he displayed against Sirak in PoD.
I'm impressed by your civility and professionalism, nooblet.
Originally posted by GideonWell, he was only partially contradicted by the loading screen, which stated that Nihilus only hauled out the Ravager, as opposed to the entire fleet.
Being the essence of perfection, I am immune to double standards. You may correct me if I'm wrong (which I cannot be!), but it is my understanding, sir, that Colonel Tobin was contradicted by the loading screen, speaking on topics of which he wasn't present to ascertain nor is there any knowledge of documentation regarding the specific feats, and lastly, he was under the thrall of the very person whom he was fellating. If, sir, that is the case: the situation is completely different.
The historical council of a vast galactic hyperpower with access to remarkable sources of information (the details regarding Sidious's plots, in particular) is a far greater source than Colonel Tobin. It's really not close at all.Well, durr, but I'm not disputing the validity of their respective depictions of events.
Unless the silly historian had access to every midichlorian record -- or it's Force-sense equivalent, which I doubt could have a real written record -- he has no basis to definitively state that Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He isn't a Sith, or Jedi, or a historian of the Force. He isn't even Force-sensitive. So in essence, he is passing judgement on a matter that he can never really comprehend.
As far as Traya is concerned, she is a Sith historian and I have always valued her opinion. But if, as I have on numerous occasions, refused to take Palpatine at his word due to his reputation as a narcissist and liar, what has Traya done to deserve better treatment?I'll try to get back to this tomorrow, because my brain is dead.
Now, assess Vader, sir!Okay. Sir.
Tomorrow.
EDIT -- Yeah, this was formulated at three different points in my afternoon/evening/now, so it's pretty messed up. Bleh.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I think the full Sith Academy training on Korriban was designed to last two years. If someone can correct me on that, please do.As far as my DE Sidious theory, I'll try to gather more info on that and expand tomorrow or Thursday evening. I'll also be posting a Gideon/Crimzon-like synopsis of my opinion on Vader.
He was being amped by battle meditation, which grants far superior clarity as opposed to being without it. Let's not forget that he [Bane] was fending off four lightsaber blades at once, three being wielded by Jedi Masters, at least one who was on the High Council, and the other being the Jedi Battlemaster...all amped by battle meditation.
I would say that takes a fair bit of speed, if not to the level he displayed against Sirak in PoD. [/B]
When does BM grant more clarity?
Moreover, by the time Bane blew them all back, I believe Worror was not using BM at that point. BM or no BM, Bane is clearly superior to Farfalla or Johun and he's trying to end a fight as soon as possible. If he's THAT fact, no bloody way could Farfalla see him baring down on him and adjust accordingly.
And don't forget if not for his special shirt, Bane would have died seconds into the fight.
If it wasn't for his "special shirt," he wouldn't have been fighting in the style he was.
Where does this Bane hate come from? 😛 He does pay a severe price for wearing the orbalisks, you know. They aren't exactly free. And the entire thing is entirely plausible. He isn't even the only one who had used them.
If he had to devote any time to defense-not Bane's strong suit- Raskta and Farfalla together likely would have killed him.
The Bane hate comes from him being a horribly written, completely overpowered Gary Stu....Let us reflect:
He gets a few years of Sith training and a couple weeks with a Holocron and suddenly he's the most powerful guy in the galaxy. He's Mr. perfect clarity, perfect vision, ultimate power, making transitions from one character phase to the other just as the plot demands. There's a point in all of this where you say "Yes, Drew, we get it, he's awesome and perfect and invincible and badass."
The story is less a story. It's a vehicle for Bane to be awesome. The story is all secondary to how awesome Bane is. The Fights are little more than tidbits so we can SEE how awesome Bane is. Bane has absolutely no realistic flaws, either. He's a Gary Stu, plain and simple.
and who else used the Orbalisks? Freedon Nadd sure didn't. What's Bane's 'severe price?' Constant pain? We're informed shortly after it doesn't bother him. Explosions of anger? He's got a bad temper before he ever gets them-considering he CRIPPLES HIS OWN SHIP lashing out at a figment of his imagination...he gets far more than what he gives
Wasn't Nadd the one doing experiments on them?
Anywho, I don't see how you don't see Sidious or Luke or other tremendously powerful characters in the same light (as a Gary Stu). Especially later versions of Luke.
For the record, I thought PoD was much better done than RoT. Probably has to do with Githany though. 😉
In fact, know who I'd like a book about? Lord Kopecz.
Kopecz is one of the most fascinating and interesting Sith I've seen...unlike almost any other Sith, Kopecz was a Jedi who made a conscious and rational decision to turn to the Dark Side for the hope of a better galaxy. Kopecz was honorable, noble and decent as a Jedi and as a Sith was nowhere near depraved as many others and was even greatly respected by the Jedi.
Heck, he's the only one of the Brotherhood of Darkness to demonstrate any spine to stand up to Kaan and Bane on Ruusan,, he shows himself a brilliant tactician, fighter, has actual character and isn't the strongest guy in the galaxy by any means.
In the original Jedi vs. Sith comic, one of the best scenes? Kopecz calmly munching an apple and informing Githany "We're dead." when Githany asks if the Jedi have overtaken them.
Kopecz: Worse. Kaan had an idea.
And when Githany asks if Kopecz is fleeing with then, his response is to sit, and reply sadly. "I chose my side long ago.."
If ANY Sith has character worthy of further exploration, it's Kopecz