doesn't dooku fall under that category too? and i tell you who doesn't! (just to steer it back on topic a bit) Vader doesn't! he was a really bad honorless sith who choked his prego wife. Kinda the scum of the earth kinda thing. With everything that he does, as a sith, for luke to say "there is still good in him" i'm of the opinion that saving luke's life didnt do nearly enough for vader to "redeem him" that really truly made it too easy. (but i better not insult the original movies i suppose)
Dooku would as well...though Dooku had a VERY cruel and dark side...he created Grievous solely for the purpose of taking the blame for war crimes-he knew what grievous would do to innocents...he planned on it. His honor and morality was mostly a calculated act.
Master Dooku was dead by the time we saw him in AOTC. Only Darth Tyranus remained. That's how Dooku thought of himself and how we should think of him, too.
Originally posted by truejedi
His subatomic manipulation argument is stupid, because every sith who ever made a holocron (and presumably jedi too) had to make it that way. It was simply how they were made.
Except for the fact that no indication is given by the source material that the subatomic alterations were an absolute requirement. All we know for sure is that Bane did so in order to "ensure" that the crystalline strands fitted in properly, and to assume that every single holocron would have to be made in the same manner that Bane set out to make his, with no indication that Bane's method was the only method, is what you'd call "stupid."
Yes, Taven. No indication that required adjustments for Holocrons to such perfect, precise and exact specifications were requirements.
And oh, look at what I found:
Each holocron matrix had to meet perilous specifications, usually requiring thousands of precise alterations and adjustments on a subatomic level. Only through the power of the Force could one ensure that each crystalline strand was properly aligned.
Fits rather well with that Jedi and Sith Holocrons can only be made by Force Users and must be perfectly precise. Do you truly believe Bane is the only one to use a Force to construct a Holocron that way?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
In fact, know who I'd like a book about? Lord Kopecz.Kopecz is one of the most fascinating and interesting Sith I've seen...unlike almost any other Sith, Kopecz was a Jedi who made a conscious and rational decision to turn to the Dark Side for the hope of a better galaxy. Kopecz was honorable, noble and decent as a Jedi and as a Sith was nowhere near depraved as many others and was even greatly respected by the Jedi.
Heck, he's the only one of the Brotherhood of Darkness to demonstrate any spine to stand up to Kaan and Bane on Ruusan,, he shows himself a brilliant tactician, fighter, has actual character and isn't the strongest guy in the galaxy by any means.
In the original Jedi vs. Sith comic, one of the best scenes? Kopecz calmly munching an apple and informing Githany "We're dead." when Githany asks if the Jedi have overtaken them.
Kopecz: Worse. Kaan had an idea.
And when Githany asks if Kopecz is fleeing with then, his response is to sit, and reply sadly. "I chose my side long ago.."If ANY Sith has character worthy of further exploration, it's Kopecz
I believe Revan did that exact same thing along with Jacen?
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I believe Revan did that exact same thing along with Jacen?
Yeah. Its implicated alot in kotor 2 that Revan went to the dark side solely to prepare the galaxy for the true Sith. Its unknown whether he goes back to the dark side or not after kotor 1, since its canon that after he lost his memories he went to the light side. Hopefully kotor 3 will clear up alot of questions. As for Jacen, I believe he started out as a 'gray' Sith but towards the end he became a real Sith. Im not positive of that though, other people who are more versed in post ROTJ stuff can probably answer the question better.
Originally posted by truejedi
I'm just saying, we can't prove he was above sidious. And in defense of sidious, we have lucas saying he was the most powerful sith lord in history" we have numerous sources, including vader, and a narrator calling him the strongest sith in history, and we have a simple a>b>c>d>e progression in the sith order that BANE DESIGNED that would logically put him at the very bottom of it
Nope Lucas never said that. And the various quotes tossed around about Sidious being the most powerful are invariably from either a fallible third party or too vague to be taken as definate proof. As for the order, thats the way it was supposed to be designed but the design is hardly infallible, otherwise Darth Maul and Mech Vader would necessarily be more powerful than Bane also and thats much harder to believe. Just like he cant prove without a doubt that Bane is above Sidious, its not proven that Sidious is above Bane either.
No one is disputing that Sidious is top tier, thats obvious, but its still very debateable whether he is the top. Sith that I believe are stronger include Marka Ragnos and Revan. Nihilus is possible. Bane is possible also though Im rather undecided about that issue and would not argue for it yet.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The slight difference is Jacen turns into a sadistic, murderous lunatic, and Revan, if PoD is an indication, Revan was quite the devoted Dark Sider as a Sith.Frankly, I see him as just one Sith guarding his territory from rivals.
Well if we give weight to what Kreia says of the issue, then thats not true. She explicitly states that Revan never fell. And from what I gathered, Revan wasnt a real sith, he just used the dark side as a tool to make himself stronger and the republic stronger since presumably the true Sith were a great threat to the survival of the galaxy.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope Lucas never said that. And the various quotes tossed around about Sidious being the most powerful are invariably from either a fallible third party or too vague to be taken as definate proof. As for the order, thats the way it was supposed to be designed but the design is hardly infallible, otherwise Darth Maul and Mech Vader would necessarily be more powerful than Bane also and thats much harder to believe. Just like he cant prove without a doubt that Bane is above Sidious, its not proven that Sidious is above Bane either.No one is disputing that Sidious is top tier, thats obvious, but its still very debateable whether he is the top. Sith that I believe are stronger include Marka Ragnos and Revan. Nihilus is possible. Bane is possible also though Im rather undecided about that issue and would not argue for it yet.
This antedeluvian bullshit nonsense has been debunked a year ago, I don't know why you persist.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope Lucas never said that. And the various quotes tossed around about Sidious being the most powerful are invariably from either a fallible third party or too vague to be taken as definate proof. As for the order, thats the way it was supposed to be designed but the design is hardly infallible, otherwise Darth Maul and Mech Vader would necessarily be more powerful than Bane also and thats much harder to believe. Just like he cant prove without a doubt that Bane is above Sidious, its not proven that Sidious is above Bane either.No one is disputing that Sidious is top tier, thats obvious, but its still very debateable whether he is the top. Sith that I believe are stronger include Marka Ragnos and Revan. Nihilus is possible. Bane is possible also though Im rather undecided about that issue and would not argue for it yet.
Palpatine is quoted as being the most powerful of Bane's Order and most powerful in over a thousand years.
That's pretty solidly including Bane.
Don't forget:
1. Maul was a placeholder apprentice. Palpatine didn't intend for him to grow more powerful than him.
2. Dooku was the same.
3. Mech Vader is a crippled Vader. Lucas said if not for those wounds, he could have been twice as powerful as Palpatine. The entire system was intended to grow stronger and stronger in progression. Palp's real intended apprentice was Anakin after all
And Revan and Ragnos? Seriously? On what evidence exactly? It'd follow from Bane's teachings Palpatine possesses all of Revan's knowledge and then some and while nobody disputes Ragnos is powerful, putting him above Palpatine seems a bit unfair.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope Lucas never said that. And the various quotes tossed around about Sidious being the most powerful are invariably from either a fallible third party or too vague to be taken as definate proof. As for the order, thats the way it was supposed to be designed but the design is hardly infallible, otherwise Darth Maul and Mech Vader would necessarily be more powerful than Bane also and thats much harder to believe. Just like he cant prove without a doubt that Bane is above Sidious, its not proven that Sidious is above Bane either.No one is disputing that Sidious is top tier, thats obvious, but its still very debateable whether he is the top. Sith that I believe are stronger include Marka Ragnos and Revan. Nihilus is possible. Bane is possible also though Im rather undecided about that issue and would not argue for it yet.
I will be making an argument regarding Darth Sidious on Microsoft Word, as extensive as humanly possible, sometime this week. If you're eager to debate it, message me. In the meantime, I will state for the record: as Darth Sexy has alluded to, we no longer subscribe to the idea that Marka Ragnos is the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord in the history of the mythos. In fact, one could easily ignore his "feats" (which are also statements and few implications) and bury this issue permenantly. But, as it stands, the purpose of this thread is to take all evidence into account. The implications are that Ragnos is a top tier Sith, so we're not going to ignore that. However, in most cases, we have to argue dominance by feats. Palpatine's greatest feat is summoning a storm capable of disintegrating state-of-the-art warships rather casually; ships capable of resisting gigatons of damage. Moreover, unlike Sith like Sadow, he does so entirely without aid. Feat-to-feat, Ragnos will never compare. You must accept the fact that we have the means to make a far greater argument than any proponent for Ragnos. Hence why no one tries to bring it up anymore. But, Ragnos is one of the characters I want to cover here, and we will analyze all evidence of him to give him a fair assessment.
Anyways, back to Vader, please.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I remember Gideon you posted a while back an argument on Vader's "power"/potential limits, physically and mentally from quotes found in RODV and Death Star I believe, as well as Lumiya's opinion on the physical limits. That sounds like a good placxe to start.
Do you have them?
Originally posted by Taven
Except for the fact that no indication is given by the source material that the subatomic alterations were an absolute requirement. All we know for sure is that Bane did so in order to "ensure" that the crystalline strands fitted in properly, and to assume that every single holocron would have to be made in the same manner that Bane set out to make his, with no indication that Bane's method was the only method, is what you'd call "stupid."
actually, its a safe assumption considering he failed repeatedly before he recieved further instruction in creating them. instruction he recieved from another sith, who had also made one. He was using someone elses template, that's pretty obvious.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't forget:
1. Maul was a placeholder apprentice. Palpatine didn't intend for him to grow more powerful than him.
2. Dooku was the same.
3. Mech Vader is a crippled Vader. Lucas said if not for those wounds, he could have been twice as powerful as Palpatine. The entire system was intended to grow stronger and stronger in progression. Palp's real intended apprentice was Anakin after all
...What? I hope you have proof of all of that, because I completely disagree. Palpatine took Maul as an apprentice even before he killed Darth Plagueis. And his reason for killing Plagueis is because he learned of Plagueis' experiments of trying to create life through the Force, assuming he wanted to replace Sidious with the aforementioned creation.
Sidious wasn't even aware that Plagueis' project succeeded (assuming that it is), and didn't know of Anakin's existence until The Phantom Menace. So, from everything we know about the Rule of Two, yes, Maul was Sidious' apprentice for keeps.
Also, this whole A>B>C logic regarding Bane's Order and assuming he's the weakest in it is plain incorrect. He intended that when the master taught the apprentice everything he knew, the apprentice would kill him/her and choose an apprentice of his own. This could be done through stealth, secrecy (both of which are skills Bane valued highly), or the fact that the apprentice would surpass the master in power. Not necessarily always the latter. Moreover, the apprentice could specialize in one area and surpass their master in only that particular area. Bane tells Zannah that she excels naturally in the area of Sith Sorcery, which Bane himself has no affinity for. That does not mean that fully trained, she would be superior to him in Force Lightning, Force Choke, lightsaber skills, et cetera.
That entire line of speculation involving Bane's Order and him being the weakest in it needs to be scrapped. It's extremely flawed.