Project Holocron

Originally posted by Gideon
I apologize in advance for the multiple posts, but you've all posted so many times in between that I can't access both of Nebaris's arguments from the posting screen. Let's deal with the smaller post first.

According to Swarm War, Skywalker "had spent the last week in deep meditation, sending a Force-call to the entire Jedi order." It was hardly effortless nor was it instantaneous.

Where are you getting this quote from? You can download the novel from here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=10282, it takes about 2 seconds, notepad search the document with the key words in the quote you just came out with, and I can guarantee you that you won't find it there. He's described as doing it pretty effortlessly and quickly.

He demonstrates this ability quite effortlessly with his many Emperor's Hands.

With nowhere near the same scale. Luke Skywalker did it to every single Jedi there was in the Galaxy. He had no prior indication as to where each individual one would have been, meaning he would have had to spread his telepathic command across the entire Galaxy, which is a completely unrivalled large scale application of the Force. That Palpatine could do so to a single individual with indication as to their location in no way compares.

Of course, I may be mistaken, but please provide the quote, statement, or proof that indicates that he was referring to Kueller's "developed power."

"Just before he saw Brakiss.

But this wasn't Brakiss. That much he knew. This was someone else. Someone equally familiar.

And more powerful. Much more powerful to be felt from so far away.

The feeling had a malevolence in it, though, that was unfamiliar. Except around Emperor Palpatine. Luke had felt it then."

I stand corrected. It wasn't even that.

I do hope you don't expect me to be impressed by Skywalker's "assessment" of Durron's 'potential' at the time when nothing indicates that his probings of Durron's abilities were accurate.

And yet you chose to base the entirety of your comparison between the raw power of of Durron and Sidious on the exact same thing. Argue the accuracy of the probings all you want, it's supported by Kyp's numerous high class demonstrations.

Especially since, in the meantime, Durron hasn't approached Skywalker in terms of developed power,

That he can manipulate multiple black holes with no real effort would suggest that he does a lot more than just "approach" him.

despite the fact that Luke restrains himself and is bound by deep insecurities.

The only times Luke has actually displayed superiority over Durron is when he's released himself from such restrains. When he has been held back by such barriers, he's been vastly outperformed by Kyp, best illustrated at the beginning of the NJO series when he literally struggled with manipulating a single Dovin Bazil, and was left unconscious by the end of it. Compare that to Kyp's casual displays at manipulating a handful of them simultaneously, and it's pretty clear that the Luke you're describing is the one that doesn't approach the other.

Not to mention Kyp's vastly lesser training and experience.

Durron, meanwhile, is bound by aggression and reckless maneuvering.

He actually calms down a little later on in the series, not that it matters, as Luke under the conditions you've described has never been shown to outperform him.

Originally posted by Taven
Where are you getting this quote from? You can download the novel from here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=10282, it takes about 2 seconds, notepad search the document with the key words in the quote you just came out with, and I can guarantee you that you won't find it there. He's described as doing it pretty effortlessly and quickly.

He had spent the last week deep in meditation, sending a Force-call to the entire Jedi order.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I just reread what I posted, and the bottom piece may be a bit confusing, (Sorry, I'm at work.)

What do you do? Or what are you supposed to be doing? 😛

I do not have the means to continue debating the topic regarding Kueller and Sidious, as I don't have a copy of the New Rebellion on hand. Nebaris, get me the exact quote regarding the sourcebooks, please, regarding Palpatine's apparent lack of foresight, and I'll fish around for the quotes I owe you.

Meanwhile, let me remind you: you're an uninvited guest here. If you want to continue to have your posts addressed, I would strongly suggest dropping all pretenses of an attitude. Otherwise, the ignore function will welcome you into its ranks and we can move on.

Originally posted by Gideon

Meanwhile, let me remind you: you're an uninvited guest here. If you want to continue to have your posts addressed, I would strongly suggest dropping all pretenses of an attitude. Otherwise, the ignore function will welcome you into its ranks and we can move on.

Who are you to say something like that? If he likes being here I don't see it as being a problem.

I've got an office job that doesn't like me being occupied on non-work related sites. So I sneak. 😉

And just so this post wasn't complete spam, I'd like to say that I find Lightsnake's (who seems like a nice guy) and Gideon's certain refutations of Taven's arguments solely due to 'hyperbole' very hypocritcal. I hope I'm being professional about this, but I'd like you all to refrain from saying such things. For instance, several of your quotes regarding Palpatine's power are the exact same - and directly contradicted via the Star Wars evidence.

"Palpatine has tamed the Dark Side."

According to whom? Last I checked, the Dark Side energies he was channeling were so great that they caused his body to decay and age rapidly. This is "taming" something? No.

"Palpatine is the one who could embrace the dark side fully."

Which is nice, but doesn't tell us anything regarding power. For all we know, the quote refers to the Dark Side Philosophy of Might Makes Right, or his lust for power, or a great many other things.

Finally, "Palpatine is described asthe grim culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings."

This is clearly false. He all but trounces on the Rule of Two, setting up numerous Dark Jedi, Emperor's Hands, secret apprentices, and the like. Training them all in Sith arts and saber techniques. Considering that Darth Bane established the Rule of Two as Sith philosophy and method of teaching a thousand years earlier, the fact that he gets the idea from Darth Revan two thousand years before that, and the fact that Darth Andeddu who existed three thousand years before that seems to believe the Rule of Two is the proper way of the Sith Order, then clearly he is not that culmination of Sith philosophy and teaching.

When you argue hyperbole for one statement, you must be careful not to use any yourself.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In fact, why don't we just hit him with the quotes explicitly stating Palpatine is the most powerful so he runs off in tears?

I'll just point out that there is no absolute source that states that Palpatine is the most powerful. The NEC is written from an in universe perspective, so therefore the quote is from a fallible third party source.

Originally posted by sweersa
Who are you to say something like that?

I find myself particularly amused with a person who asks a question like that and then follows it up with:

If he likes being here I don't see it as being a problem.

...As though meeting your standards for posting are supposed to matter more than mine. Regardless, I will answer your question:

a.) The people of Project Holocron are here to engage in discussion and civil debate. Nebaris's very presence here could potentially cite a flame war, as his history of antagonism with Lightsnake is remarkable. But Faunus and I have both spoken on the issue; this isn't the place for flame wars or insults.

b.) This is for commentary from people with invitations only. We have a wide spectrum of contributers, and we encourage disagreement or differing opinions, as many revelations can be yielded from them. But Nebaris decided to post here without such consent. That I didn't make a fuss out of it is an indicator that I've extended Nebaris more patience than he, technically, deserves.

Originally posted by Enyalus
According to whom? Last I checked, the Dark Side energies he was channeling were so great that they caused his body to decay and age rapidly. This is "taming" something? No.

Taming is synonymous with "mastering", Enyalus. Which is what we've been trying to point out to you all along.

Which is nice, but doesn't tell us anything regarding power. For all we know, the quote refers to the Dark Side Philosophy of Might Makes Right, or his lust for power, or a great many other things.

"In self-exile for a thousand years, the Sith had not merely been waiting for an appopriate time to reemerge and exact revenge, but for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument. This was Sidious: powerful enough to hide in plain sight. Powerful enough to instruct his apprentice, Dooku, to expose him, and still remain hidden from the Jedi."

-- Labyrinth of Evil, page 252.

So, erm... wrong?

This is clearly false. He all but trounces on the Rule of Two, setting up numerous Dark Jedi, Emperor's Hands, secret apprentices, and the like. Training them all in Sith arts and saber techniques. Considering that Darth Bane established the Rule of Two as Sith philosophy and method of teaching a thousand years earlier, the fact that he gets the idea from Darth Revan two thousand years before that, and the fact that Darth Andeddu who existed three thousand years before that seems to believe the Rule of Two is the proper way of the Sith Order, then clearly he is not that culmination of Sith philosophy and teaching.

Palpatine didn't take on more than one Sith apprentice, Enyalus. The rest were dark side adepts. They don't count as a breach of the Rule of Two. For the record? Bane, Revan, Andeddu... accomplished nothing next to Palpatine. He's definitely the highest point of Sith history.

When you argue hyperbole for one statement, you must be careful not to use any yourself.

And, uh, where did I accuse Nebaris of hyperbole? All I recall was him using that expression: it's one of his favorites.

EDIT: Just for you, Nebaris (assuming you will still be permitted by the Supreme Overcouncil of Doom! for Project Holocron to keep posting), I'm going through every single book/guide/email I have to find all of my relevant Sidious quotes. And you and I will continue the debate once I have them all. Meanwhile, though, I would like for the rest of the Project members to give their final assessments regarding Sidious so that we may move on to Vader. Or whomever is next.

I don't recall being invited to your User control panel on SD.net either, Gideon. Nice to see how that turned out. Oh, and:

Originally posted by Taven
And lastly, from RoT:

"Passion fueled the dark side, but what if the dark side also fueled passion? Emotion brought power, but that power increased the intensity of those emotions...which in turn led to an increase in power. In the right circumstances, it would create a cycle that would end only when a person reached the limits of his or her ability to command the force--or when the target of his or her anger and hatred was destroyed."

His innovative mastery and understanding of the dark side is so great that he was naturally able to use his emotions and the dark side in conjunction with eachother to create a chain reaction that constantly adds to more and more power being generated.

"Fixed."

Ah, well then. On ignore you go. I appreciate the contributions, my friend. As ever, you are a skilled debater. Should you change your presentation, however, please let someone know to relay this information to me.

Ciao!

Should you change your presentation, however, please let someone know to relay this information to me.

Could someone please relay that information to Gideon. It breaks my heart that he's pretending to have put me on his ignore list.

Originally posted by Taven
Could someone please relay that information to Gideon. It breaks my heart that he's pretending to have put me on his ignore list.

If we may make our final assessments of Sidious, we can move on. Mine has already been posted.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I'll just point out that there is no absolute source that states that Palpatine is the most powerful. The NEC is written from an in universe perspective, so therefore the quote is from a fallible third party source.

There are however, ones stating he is the culmination of Sith power and philosophy, the 'only Dark Lord' with the power to etc etc.

There's quite a bit.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I would like to continue beating a dead horse (because he looked at me funny).

What are your opinions on Dark Empire's incarnation of Darth Sidious? It seems plausible to me, and even likely, that he is actually [b]weaker than other versions. Stay with me here, let me explain why, simply:

While it is clear that he's had time to master/learn everything about the Dark Side of the Force by DE, and even develop the most powerfully devastating Force technique known (capable of shredding the fabric of space-time), look closer at the clones he is using to do so.

It's explicitly stated that due to inherent flaws in the cloning process the clone bodies are not as easily able to handle the massive amounts of Dark Side energy that Palpatine channels through his body. They decay much faster. (I seem to recall six years being the average lifespan of a Palpatine clone, but if anyone can find an exact quote, it'd be much appreciated.)

This speaks volumes about the clone's strength when compared to Palpatine's original body. Palpatine's originally body survived at least 80 years before being destroyed (wasn't he 60 something in ROTS?). The clones don't last even half of that time. Meaning, presumably, a much lower midi-chlorian count or some other equal explanation to explain why the synthetic bodies are not as durable as the original. If this is true, and again, from the way the clone bodies decay it seems likely - this would mean that DE Sidious' overall strength would be severely less than that of, say, Revenge of the Sith Sidious, even though his Force mastery and knowledge would be greater.

If the theory's true, it'd be much like pre-Mustafar Vader compared to Mech Vader. The former's raw power would be greater, but the latter's control and developed attacks are stronger. [/B]

I will give Enyalus credit, there. While his theory is filled with flaws, if he could gather more evidence and polish it, it would do well to renew the purpose behind Anakin's sacrifice and balance to the Force.

Enyalus, give it some time, gather more evidence, and then get back to us on that theory.

My final assessment of Darth Sidious is essentially what Gideon says. He is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, but by no means invincible or infallible.

I'd give a more detailed synopsis, but I can't compete with the quote-machine that is Gideon. 😉 If you want, though, I'll be happy to elaborate.

I do wish they would have shown more aspects of Sidious' mastery of the Force, instead of merely stating it. As it stands, I, like Taven, believe Bane to have displayed the greater variety of mastery of the Force. This does not mean, however, that I doubt what the sourcebooks say.

Having looked over what's been posted, I've come to the same conclusion I had from the get go. Sidious, like Luke, has people that surpass him in certain disciplines of the force (in Sidious' case I imagine there are those that may be more skilled with sith alchemy and like), but when we examine the sum of the whole, he simply has the greatest pool of knowledge and skill which come together to make the most dangerous darkside combatant around.

Originally posted by Enyalus
My final assessment of Darth Sidious is essentially what Gideon says. He is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, but by no means invincible or infallible.

I'd give a more detailed synopsis, but I can't compete with the quote-machine that is Gideon. 😉 If you want, though, I'll be happy to elaborate.

I do wish they would have shown more aspects of Sidious' mastery of the Force, instead of merely stating it. As it stands, I, like Taven, believe Bane to have displayed the greater variety of mastery of the Force. This does not mean, however, that I doubt what the sourcebooks say.