Project Holocron

Originally posted by Gideon
This is going to leech a great deal of my time, I can tell. Faunus, why don't you be a good sport and start helping out with the heavy lifting?

Nebaris, let us make things explicitly clear: Project Holocron is not the place for flame wars or flame baiting. If you wish to participate (which is odd -- since you weren't invited), you may do so, but you will not -- in any way, shape, form, or thought -- attempt to disrupt this process by filling this thread with attempts to spite Lightsnake. Furthermore, you will subscribe to our ideology regarding Publius's methodology. It is how we come to our conclusions. Am I clear?

I apologize in advance for the multiple posts, but you've all posted so many times in between that I can't access both of Nebaris's arguments from the posting screen. Let's deal with the smaller post first.

Originally posted by Taven
More on topic, Luke has displayed the ability to telepathically contact jedi across the Galaxy at will, with no notable amount of effort required.

According to Swarm War, Skywalker "had spent the last week in deep meditation, sending a Force-call to the entire Jedi order." It was hardly effortless nor was it instantaneous.

When has Palpatine demonstrated such mastery?

He demonstrates this ability quite effortlessly with his many Emperor's Hands.

And the power that Luke sensed in Dolph, that was compared with Palpatine's, was his developed power.

Of course, I may be mistaken, but please provide the quote, statement, or proof that indicates that he was referring to Kueller's "developed power."

As said, Luke believed Kyp's potential to surpass his own (meaning it at the very least compares, given the vast methods with which Jedi can sense such things), and has demonstrated unaided potency miles above Sidious with far less training, and at a far younger age.

I do hope you don't expect me to be impressed by Skywalker's "assessment" of Durron's 'potential' at the time when nothing indicates that his probings of Durron's abilities were accurate. Especially since, in the meantime, Durron hasn't approached Skywalker in terms of developed power, despite the fact that Luke restrains himself and is bound by deep insecurities. Durron, meanwhile, is bound by aggression and reckless maneuvering.

@ DarkSerpent:

Not unless you plan to make worthy contributions.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm fairly sure every other Sith Lord attempting to make a Holocron didn't have to deal with the frequent bursts of rage and frustration brought on by the orbalisks -- which almost pushed Bane to annihilate Zannah, and at least once made him tear apart their camp -- while also setting up a vast intergalactic network of contacts and organizing plans that wouldn't manifest themselves for decades.

Now, seriously, you people need to get on-topic and finish up Palpatine. [/QUOTE]
I think we've mostly finished it anyways. TBH, I'm eager to move on from that myself. Too cut and dry

Originally posted by Taven
Where exactly is that stated? We know that he was "believed" (which begs the question, by whom?) to have mastered nearly all known powers, forgotten ones, and created new ones at his leisure, and we know he studied (studied, not mastered) the Force in all its guises, but where is it explicitly stated that he mastered absolutely all of the knowledge that he possessed?

One quote in particular that comes to mind is, apparently, in both Heritage of the Sith and the Essential Guide to the Force wherein Palpatine is described as "the grim culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings," which alone indicates that his mastery of the Force exceeds any single Sith before him. The rest, I will collect later.

As for your "assessment," it's really not anywhere near as clear cut as you'd like to think.

Firstly, knowledge =/= mastery. It's your knowledge of the Force, and your control over it that defines your mastery over it. His studies in and knowledge of the Force, as I've almost always acknowledged, is certainly more encompassing than that of anyone else in the mythos, but his control of the Force hasn't shown to even come close to some of the other characters in the mythos.

When you've mastered that considerable well of knowledge, Nebaris, your mastery exceeds everyone else's.

Darth Bane for one, displayed the ability to fill up a room capable of housing hundreds of students with a storm of force lightning with a single burst of energy, all while still a Sith initiate, and not an hour after having learnt the technique in the first place (a display of mastery with the technique that rivals Palpatine's best showing after decades of growth and refinement with it).

If this is the means by which you intend to prove that Palpatine was not capable of creating such storms of Sith energy, you will have to do better. Nothing suggests that he didn't nor couldn't. Especially when, in all cases, Palpatine has never been depicted as playing with Sith lightning as Darth Bane did; his energy was always focused on a particular person or persons.

His telepathic resistance is of such a high level that Kaan's manipulations -- which were capable of keeping the entire BoD under control, which included multiple notably powerful Sith Lords such as Kas'im, Quordis, Kopekz, and Seviss Vaa -- "had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar."

...And when has Palpatine ever fallen prey to telepathic assaults? Moreover, despite the fact that he came into contact with Starkiller mere minutes before, the Emperor demonstrated the ability to quickly take control over the secret apprentice's mind at the height of his mental clarity.

He was capable of resisting one of the deadliest poisons in the Galaxy (something that the dark side is explicitly stated to not be very effective at), and this after having been unaware that it was in his body for most of the time until it began to maximise on its deadly effect.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? Was he ever poisoned?

When faced with eight Sith Umbaraan Assassins who had trained their entire lives to use the Force to shield themselves in it, he showed himself capable of completely revealing there presences with a single wave of intangible dark side energy.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? Was he ever confronted by assassins or Force sensitivies who dared to use Quey'tek against him? Moreover, to quote the omniscient narrator of The Force Unleashed: "Starkiller had never met his Master's Master in person, but the Sith Lord who single handedly wiped out most of the Jedi in the galaxy could cast a shadow deep enough to hide anything."

His mastery as a seer is so great that he can see "far into the future," and he can apparently do this at will whereas all other seers in the mythos have only ever had visions come to them in situations beyond their control.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? You've just proven that he's proficient in foresight, but he's not infallible. Palpatine has also demonstrated great prescience without demonstrating infallibility. I'm not quite sure where you want to go with this.

And most notable, of course, is his telekinesis, which had shown itself capable of absolutely crushing the likes of the highly ranked and powerful Quordis, breaking through his defences "as if they weren't there," the ability to affect vast areas of landscape with simply force pushes, and eight years into his career, five years before his current state at the end of Ro2, the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? When has he attacked a Force user with direct telekinesis and failed in doing so or encountered resistance?

His mastery has certainly shown itself to be greater and wider encompassing than Palpatine's (he's displayed mastery in energy channelling, Force defence, telepathic resistance, Force sensing, precognition, telekinesis, Force lightning, resisting poisons; and the ability to use the Force on the subatomic scale, and channel it across entire planets) and if you want to get back to Force knowledge, which is only half of the puzzle anyway (if that), he possesses all of Revan's knowledge via his holocron (which surpassed all of the teachings in the Korriban archives, and possessed both knowledge in the dark side and light side), and had soon learnt all of it (as directly stated), as well as that of Freedon Nadd, which contained all of Sadow's knowledge, with which he had even longer time to learn from. While he's had far less time to learn from such knowledge than Palpatine has, his improvement rate has shown itself to be astronomically greater than that of anyone else, as demonstrated with his early lightning display, as well as with the above mentioned time it took him to learn the entirety of Revan's holocron.

I'm afraid I remain unimpressed, my friend. You have yet to prove the vast majority of this at all.

Palpatine on the other hand hasn't shown mastery anywhere near as widely encompassing as Bane, his control hasn't even come within lightyears, and he's only ever demonstrated the ability to use the Force over such distances with the aid of Sith focusing crystals and the like, such as in Sithisis (which would imply that he relied on such devices).

Palpatine was using the "Sith focusing crystals" (I would like proof, by the way, that it is one) to manipulate events directly across a galaxy. A far cry above from planet-level manipulation, which Palpatine is also capable of performing, based on his efforts regarding the Lusyanka and his transformation of Byss. Moreover, I would like proof that he was relient on it.

His knowledge base is certainly far greater, in many ways, but unlike Bane, his exact magnitude of knowledge hasn't in any way been defined at all, and he certainly can't be said to have ever been able to learn an entire holocron's worth of knowledge, let alone one the size of Revan's.

According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Palpatine mastered the majority of the Force techniques in existence and succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side.

Conclusion: Bane has demonstrated the unaided ability to channel the Force with a range that Palpatine has never himself demonstrated, control that eclipses that of any other display by miles, wider encompassing mastery (in areas such as foresight -- which Palpatine was explicitly stated to be useless at; the reason why he relied on the Prophets of the dark side -- and obscure areas such as telepathic resistance), and while his knowledge base certainly doesn't compare, it's extremely formidable in its own right, and unlike Palpatine, the magnitude of knowledge he's learned from his sources can be properly defined. By virtue of existing information, Bane possesses the superior mastery of the Force, and by no small margin.

Your conclusion, however, is intrinsically false. Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is far greater, his mastery of it is regarded as "the culmination" of any Sith before him, he was stated by the omniscient narrator as being the one Sith who "could embrace the dark side fully." His mastery well exceeds that of Darth Bane's and any other Sith. You will also please provide the proof that indicates that Palpatine's foresight is explicitly useless in? Since, ironically, his game statistics beg to differ?

I think the Emperor's only weakness, which in it self is great, is that if anybody were to heal him in the way that the Skywalker twins and the unborn kid did, he would be at the very least severely weakened.

This is due to the fact that, like you pointed out, he fully accepted the darkside and was (by his use of the ability to move his spirit from body to body) cut off from the light. This is at once his greatest strength and his greatest weakness for it provides a avenue for attack.

This is similar to Sion(Palpatine is far stronger, bu the similarity is there all the same) who had lived with only hate and anger for so long that if he stopped using the darkness to fuel himself then he died.

Every other opponent came at him with only malice, only the intent to kill him or destroy him. Such intentions strengthened and deepened his hold on the darkside. If exposed to the light in a way that expressed intent to protect or heal his hold would be severely weakened.

In a pure fight, there were and are few who could stand up to this monolith, much less defeat him. However, when they attempted to heal his diseased spirit(which was the very thing which gave him strength) as if to help him, and with "good"(loving might be stretching it) intent, he lost control over all or atleast enough of his power to be defeated.

Is this a worthy contribution?

Corrections are welcome as I wish to evolve into the most pwerful Digibater in the entire Digital KMC World.

Somewhat. While we all admire Publius's work, Test of Wills isn't canon. Don't treat it as though it were. All of that "healing" is speculation.

Palpatine's primary weakness is narcissism. But the fact that he can be defeated in combat isn't attributed to a particular psychological weakness rather than the simple fact that there are those who simply train harder and focus more on specific points of combat.

Oh... I didn't know Test of Wills was non-canon.

Thank you for telling me that.

Well then, uh, Sion with Luke and Yoda meditating to help him could take it.

Really? You didn't know a piece of fan-fiction was non-canon?

...

Well, I guess if Karen Traviss's "work" is legit, DE by Publius could be passable.

That reminds me...Faunus, heard her Order 66 spoilers?

so are we continuing with sids still or shall we move on to Vader?

I say we move on to vader, enough of sids.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
On further research....wow. EVERY Sith Holocron needs precise alterations and alignments on a subatomic level!
This means...Nihilus, Andeddu, Nadd, Bane, Adas, The Rakata, Vodo Siosk Baas, Bodo Baas, Arca Jeth, Yoda and Palpatine himself were all capable of this by virtue of having or altering Holocrons.

Originally posted by Taven
He was capable of resisting one of the deadliest poisons in the Galaxy (something that the dark side is explicitly stated to not be very effective at), and this after having been unaware that it was in his body for most of the time until it began to maximise on its deadly effect.

Revan actually taught him how to use the Force to resist the effects of poisons.

EDIT: By the way! Interesting thread.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I say we move on to vader, enough of sids.

Well, if want to, we better do it quickly, considering that tomorrow is the end of the world. 😉

Originally posted by Faunus
Really? You didn't know a piece of fan-fiction was non-canon?

...

Well, I guess if Karen Traviss's "work" is legit, DE by Publius could be passable.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
I didn't know it was fan-fiction...

What you see in the movies and anything on SuperShadow.com is considered official canon.

Originally posted by Gideon
[B]One quote in particular that comes to mind is, apparently, in both Heritage of the Sith and the Essential Guide to the Force wherein Palpatine is described as "the grim culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings," which alone indicates that his mastery of the Force exceeds any single Sith before him. The rest, I will collect later.

1. I was asking for proof that he had mastered all/nearly all of the knowledge that he possessed, not that his mastery surpasses all other Sith Lords.

2. Both sources are fallible in-universe accounts, and as such cannot be taken factually.

3. Sith philosophy and teachings likely refers to the ideals of the Ro2, more than anything in the context. That Palpatine was the absolute apex of every single individual technique makes little sense.

When you've mastered that considerable well of knowledge, Nebaris, your mastery exceeds everyone else's.

So now it's "highest number of mastered techniques = highest mastery?" Um, sorry, no, you're ignoring the universal, technique neutral, mastery of the Force, that we call control. A can master more techniques than B, but if B possesses a greater level of control over the techniques he has mastered, A can't conclusively be said to be more masterful than B. And Bane outperforms absolutely every else by lightyears in general, technique neutral control of the Force. No other Force User in the mythos has been shown to even come close to using the Force on such a low scale.

If this is the means by which you intend to prove that Palpatine was not capable of creating such storms of Sith energy, you will have to do better.

Good thing I'm not. I'm illustrating the fact that Bane's mastery, of the technique, rivalled that of Palpatine's best showing after decades of training, with lightning appearing to be his speciality, while he was still the Sith equivalent of a youngling in training, and after barely learning the technique. His refinement of the technique would have absolutely skyrocketed beyond that point, and logic would dictate far above Palpatine's.

Nothing suggests that he didn't nor couldn't.

Absolutely. The fact that he displays mastery on par with the display in the Empire comics would make it pretty conclusive that he could. The fact remains, however, that this display occurred after decades of training, after appearing to have specialised in lightning, and showing so signs of improvement in mastery of the technique later on, whereas Bane's display occurred was when he was barely trained, had only recently recovered from his inability to draw on the Force, and after having only just learnt the technique. There's also a vast difference in the manner with which they made such displays. Palpatine's face was all screwed up in exertion as he performed his, whereas Bane was literally laughing in complete joy as he did his. He displayed no such effort as Palpatine had in what are essentially on par displays of mastery, and proceeds to skyrocket in ability.

Especially when, in all cases, Palpatine has never been depicted as playing with Sith lightning as Darth Bane did; his energy was always focused on a particular person or persons.

That he felt the need to drop his beverage and release the lightning with both hands, and displayed visible signs of exertion while releasing the lightning would indicate that it was pretty close to his upper limit, however.

And the link to that piece of evidence would be here:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=920&size=M&page=068

His face is all screwed up in a manner which displays exertion rather than anger.

...And when has Palpatine ever fallen prey to telepathic assaults?

Strawman?

The point I was illustrating was how little effect it had had on Bane. And this coming from a guy who was, even by Bane standards, "powerful" (as much is stated in Bane's reflection in Ro2), who was extraordinarily talented with the technique, and had kept control over an entire order of dark siders with it. Palpatine has never demonstrated such telepathic resistance.

Moreover, despite the fact that he came into contact with Starkiller mere minutes before, the Emperor demonstrated the ability to quickly take control over the secret apprentice's mind at the height of his mental clarity.

Could you post the passage and page number? Not that it matters; I'm arguing how widely encompassing Bane's mastery was, and in that sense these are not stand alone points, but collective ones. That Palpatine could match or surpass him in one area (not that offensive mental application of the Force = defencive mental application of the Force, or that Starkiller's mental applications of the Force can be said to rival Kaan's) in no way changes the fact that the point adds to how widely encompassing Bane's mastery was.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? Was he ever poisoned?

Stop being intentionally illogical. In debates with no clear cut answer, we make the most logical conclusion we possibly can, using the existing evidence available, in which cases displays always take precedence over speculation. That we see such a display from Bane, and no display from Palpatine, would make it more logical that Bane was the more capable of the two in the area, simply because Bane can be said to reach such a level, whereas Palpation can only be blindly speculated to have.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? Was he ever confronted by assassins or Force sensitivies who dared to use Quey'tek against him?

See above. Displays take precedence. That we see no such display from Palpatine matching Bane's would make it more logical to conclude that Bane was the superior of the two in the area, simply because we can say, definitely, that he was at such a level, whereas we can only blindly assume so with Palpatine.

Moreover, to quote the omniscient narrator of The Force Unleashed: "Starkiller had never met his Master's Master in person, but the Sith Lord who single handedly wiped out most of the Jedi in the galaxy could cast a shadow deep enough to hide anything."

Clearly coming from Starkiller's PoV, and I'll explain why. The conjunction "but" is only ever used by writers to illustrate two opposing ideas. Third person narration is only ever written to fit the perspective of either the reader, or the characters. If it fits the perspective of the character, then the narration is indirectly voicing said character. If it fits our perspective, then it's clearly coming directly from the omniscient narrator (who's only job is to tell the reader the story, and as such fits the writing to our perspective). From our perspective, that Starkiller had never met Palpatine, and that Palpatine could cast a shadow deep enough to hide anything, are two completely isolated ideas. There is no opposing relation between them, whatsoever. From the perspective of Starkiller, however, there clearly is an opposing relation. That he had never met his master would generally amount to him possessing little intimate knowledge of him, especially information of a secretive nature, which would generally oppose the idea that he would have been aware of his stealthily powers. Thus affirming the meaning of the word "but." But only from the perspective of the Apprentice. Ergo, the passage is clearly written from Starkiller's perspective, and not directly from the omniscient narrator.

Not to mention, Palpatine's powers in concealment are completely different from Bane's powers in detection. They're virtual opposite applications of the Force. Your point had no real placing next to mine.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine?

1. Even if we couldn't, displays take precedence. It's more logical to conclude that Bane was the superior of the two in the area simply because he has been proven to reach a level that Palpatine hasn't.

2. We actually can. It's explicitly stated that Palpatine had absolutely no gift for foresight, whatsoever, which was why he relied on the Prophets of the Dark Side.

You've just proven that he's proficient in foresight, but he's not infallible.

He is fallible, in the sense that he clearly was never able to predict absolutely everything about the future, but how exactly was it me, specifically, that proved such a thing? It was more common sense combine with the fact that Bane clearly didn't act in an all knowing manner.

Palpatine has also demonstrated great prescience without demonstrating infallibility. I'm not quite sure where you want to go with this.

Could you give an example? And was it performed entirely at will?

And again, these are not stand alone points. Even if Palpatine had matched him in such an area, it would still add to what I'm arguing: how broad his mastery was.

How are we to compare this to Palpatine? When has he attacked a Force user with direct telekinesis and failed in doing so or encountered resistance?

Read above. When making the most logical conclusion using available evidence, what we can definitively state takes precedence. It's the basis for Occam's Razor. That Palpatine was the superior of the two in the area relies on more assumptions that the contrary claim, simply because Bane has been proven to be at a level that Palpatine can't be said to be at.

I'm afraid I remain unimpressed, my friend. You have yet to prove the vast majority of this at all.

The claim that his mastery has been displayed to be broader than Palpatine's own? Yeah, I have. He's displayed masterful displays in foresight, physical destruction, physical protection, energy channelling, telepathy, perception, precision, and biological application of the Force. Sidious has shown himself masterful in destruction, concealment, rituals, and alchemy (and telepathy, so you claim, though you haven't sourced it). They're not even close.

Palpatine was using the "Sith focusing crystals" (I would like proof, by the way, that it is one)

It was clearly a device that enabled him to focus his powers, as he was channelling it into the crystal, and it was either of Sith origin, or gathered by Bane's Order.

to manipulate events directly across a galaxy.

Not the issue I was arguing. Palpatine has only ever demonstrated the ability to use his powers over what one might call a "large scale," (what I was referring to when I said such distances) whilst aided.

A far cry above from planet-level manipulation, which Palpatine is also capable of performing, based on his efforts regarding the Lusyanka

What are you talking about? All that's made mention is that Palpatine, via his mind fogging powers, had engineers bury the ship beneath the Manarai Mountains district in Coruscant. There was no planetary manipulation involved with the Lusyanka whatsoever.

and his transformation of Byss.

A "slow," " steady" process, that was a direct product of the energies released during his mass experiments on the planet's populace. It wasn't intentional, he wasn't in control of it, it was the product of the energies released by mass dark side experimentation, and it wasn't done in anything approaching haste.

Moreover, I would like proof that he was relient on it.

If he could perform what he did in the fashion he did it in without such aid, it would have been completely unnecessary to use it. Either way, the fact that he was aided alone makes the point worthless to bring up, given we're discussing their unaided mastery.

According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Palpatine mastered the majority of the Force techniques in existence

Passage and page number. If you're again referring to the "it is believed" statement, then that begs the question: who was it believed by? Either way, the fact that it's a fallible belief in the first place, never mind who believed such a thing, means that you cannot treat said belief as gospel.

and succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side.

1. Taming the darkside =/= mastering the Force. It's limited to the dark side, and minimising the lethality of the Force.

2. All others failed? Obvious hyperbole. Did random Taris merchant #107 attempt to tame the darkside, and then fail? Did random Jedi youngling #37 make such an attempt? Did the likes of Darth Nihilus, who cared only for their hunger, and causing as much destruction as they could, attempt to tame the dark side? Such hyperbolic quotes amount to nothing.

Your conclusion, however, is intrinsically false.

No, it's absolutely correct. Bane has demonstrated far greater ability to perceive with and apply the Force with a distance, has demonstrated far greater precision, and his mastery has shown itself to manifest itself in a number of more areas than Palpatine's has. What appears to be Palpatine's speciality: Force lightning, Bane can conclusively be said to possess greater mastery with. His knowledge in the Force has been defined to greater magnitudes than Palpatine's has. And lastly, from RoT:

His innovative mastery and understanding of the dark side is so great that he was naturally able to use his emotions and the dark side in conjunction with eachother to create a chain reaction that constantly adds to more and more power being generated.

By virtue of what we know, Bane's mastery of the Force far eclipses Palpatine's

Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is far greater,

His knowledge base is, sure. Bane has displayed an astronomical learning rate that can compensate for a lack of learning time, and what he personally knows in the ways of the Force has been defined to greater heights than that of Palpatine has.

his mastery of it is regarded as "the culmination" of any Sith before him,

Already addressed.

he was stated by the omniscient narrator as being the one Sith who "could embrace the dark side fully."

How dedicated and open he was to the dark side has no relation on his mastery over it.

His mastery well exceeds that of Darth Bane's and any other Sith.

You haven't even come close to proving that.

You will also please provide the proof that indicates that Palpatine's foresight is explicitly useless in? Since, ironically, his game statistics beg to differ?

Sourcebook story information trumps game statistics. It's stated in one of the Sourcebooks that he relied on the Prophets of the dark side because he himself possessed no gift in the area.

I would like to continue beating a dead horse (because he looked at me funny).

What are your opinions on Dark Empire's incarnation of Darth Sidious? It seems plausible to me, and even likely, that he is actually weaker than other versions. Stay with me here, let me explain why, simply:

While it is clear that he's had time to master/learn everything about the Dark Side of the Force by DE, and even develop the most powerfully devastating Force technique known (capable of shredding the fabric of space-time), look closer at the clones he is using to do so.

It's explicitly stated that due to inherent flaws in the cloning process the clone bodies are not as easily able to handle the massive amounts of Dark Side energy that Palpatine channels through his body. They decay much faster. (I seem to recall six years being the average lifespan of a Palpatine clone, but if anyone can find an exact quote, it'd be much appreciated.)

This speaks volumes about the clone's strength when compared to Palpatine's original body. Palpatine's originally body survived at least 80 years before being destroyed (wasn't he 60 something in ROTS?). The clones don't last even half of that time. Meaning, presumably, a much lower midi-chlorian count or some other equal explanation to explain why the synthetic bodies are not as durable as the original. If this is true, and again, from the way the clone bodies decay it seems likely - this would mean that DE Sidious' overall strength would be severely less than that of, say, Revenge of the Sith Sidious, even though his Force mastery and knowledge would be greater.

If the theory's true, it'd be much like pre-Mustafar Vader compared to Mech Vader. The former's raw power would be greater, but the latter's control and developed attacks are stronger.

Holy crap you guy's posts are seriously almost novels!

I just reread what I posted, and the bottom piece may be a bit confusing, (Sorry, I'm at work.)

What I'm arguing is that while DE Sidious' new technique and mastery of the Force make him greater than his other incarnations in that regard, he should be less powerful in combat. A weaker, clone body would mean less Force Speed, less Force Strength, and less advanced precognition for dueling, due to lower Force reserves.