Project Holocron

Originally posted by Faunus
- It's explicitly stated that "on Byss," Palpatine "seemed invulnerable" and used the Force more "as an afterthough than an exercise," while noting that this was in spite of his decaying body. The cooling unit falls on him and he "shrugs" it off - he doesn't disintegrate it. Period, end of story. It's literally right there, I don't see how you're actively ignoring it.

- The fact that Palpatine was responsible for the creation of the darkness on Byss does [b]not mean that his personal, raw power was the sole cause behind it. While I don't recall what he did there, you need to acknowledge that actions and events are almost always what cause concentrations of Force-energy, dark or otherwise. The darkness on Ambria was, I believe, introduced through a failed experiment by a lone Sith Lady, and then driven into Lake Naath by Master Thon. The detonation of the thought bomb by the Sith Lords of the Brotherhood scarred the affected area, and the dark storm brought about earlier by Bane and the Brotherhood actually altered Ruusan's climate completely. Vjun was another one, although I'm not familiar with the circumstances behind its corruption. Korriban, Malachor V, and others are even more examples. I'm probably missing quite a few.

- You're also wrong about Palpatine's "power" ruining his body. It's overuse of the dark side, not personal power, that ravages flesh, which is what Darth Bane actually noted in Rule of Two. The Emperor himself notes that "the demands of the dark side" are beyond his body's capabilities to handle.

The idea that he's weaker because the bodies wear out quicker and he's in inferior bodies is an extremely flawed one. Palpatine's become more than a body and it's because he's so much more powerful the bodies will die quicker.

- And one moment; did you seriously try to deny the importance and existence of midichlorians? If that's not the worst argument made here I don't know what is.

Damn you, Faunus. Getting him to concede 3-4 things with one, significantly shorter post?

Obviously you've been holding out on me. Afraid I will surpass you one day? Wanting to rule KMC forever? Bah!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I find the idea that the power he's demonstrating is just due to Byss to be dubious at best.

Sorry, but no one gets to just ignore canon.

And if that's just shrugging it off, then that's honestly the worst drawing I have ever seen in a Star Wars comic.

Author's interpretation and intent takes precedence over what we think we see, as stupid as it is.

That I'm all well aware of. However, I believe it's said in Byss and the Deep Core, that "Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy."

[quote]My error there. Point is though, that Palpatine's power is too much for almost any body to handle and the clones are just copies and have to house all that power. They wear out faster. It hardly makes him weaker at all.

That's what Enyalus is getting at.

The idea that he's weaker because the bodies wear out quicker and he's in inferior bodies is an extremely flawed one. Palpatine's become more than a body and it's because he's so much more powerful the bodies will die quicker.

Not to every single thing, but to argue that because Palpatine's would steadily grow weaker due to lack of midichlorians?

And Lucas himself said he considers the midichlorians 'distinct' from the spiritual, metaphysical side of the Force on the TPM DVD commentary, while midichlorians are the 'biological' aspect to it. While they obviously exist-I should've been clearer on that- it appears force sensitivity causes the midichlorians, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Damn you, Faunus. Getting him to concede 3-4 things with one, significantly shorter post?

Obviously you've been holding out on me. Afraid I will surpass you one day? Wanting to rule KMC forever? Bah!

Yes I have. Don't tell Gideon.

don't forget that anakin lost a lot of his potential to access the force when he lost his arms and legs, something along the lines of 40% of his body mass or something, and therefore 40% of his midichlorians.... (stupid i know) but that was part of the explanation for his decline that was given.

Originally posted by truejedi
don't forget that anakin lost a lot of his potential to access the force when he lost his arms and legs, something along the lines of 40% of his body mass or something, and therefore 40% of his midichlorians.... (stupid i know) but that was part of the explanation for his decline that was given.

Loss of physical mass alone doesn't equate to a complete degradation of potential, or AotC Anakin would've had more than RotS Anakin (which is possible, but never considered). There's the physical and psychological trauma to consider as well, the latter of which is what Sidious believes is Vader's greatest problem, and the former being what Lumiya thought limited herself.

Originally posted by truejedi
don't forget that anakin lost a lot of his potential to access the force when he lost his arms and legs, something along the lines of 40% of his body mass or something, and therefore 40% of his midichlorians.... (stupid i know) but that was part of the explanation for his decline that was given.

I beleive midi-chlorians are on a per cell basis (other wise wookiee jedis would be the ones with the most potential) and palpatine who seems to be held in a high regard when speaking of force knowledge said that Vader's lost of potential was due to vader not confronting his choices. Also what is the reason for the chlorian hate is it because they add a science aspect to the force?

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
I beleive midi-chlorians are on a per cell basis (other wise wookiee jedis would be the ones with the most potential) and palpatine who seems to be held in a high regard when speaking of force knowledge said that Vader's lost of potential was due to vader not confronting his choices. Also what is the reason for the chlorian hate is it because they add a science aspect to the force?

True there. Obi-Wan specifies that Anakin has "over 20,000 per cell," midi-chlorian wise. A standard human has 2,500 per cell, and a mildly Force-sensitive user has around 5,000 per.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Listen, I'm with you on part of this. Palpatine's power is within his spirit. But in my opinion, and with the evidence about the clone bodies inferiority, in order to properly apply and channel that power fully, one needs to have a body that has a high Force potential. If it wasn't needed at all, why don't we see Palpatine's disembodied self WTFPWNing people in Empire's End?

Also, spirits usually aren't very good in combat on neutral terms. Kun had to lure Gantoris to the Dark Side and Luke to the Nexus to have any effect, for instance, and Dxun's far from a Dark World since it was cleansed of Nadd.

See, Palpatine can channel all his power just fine and dandy. It'll just tax the body more. And he really won't mind that unless it's to the point where skin is sinking off the bones. He's got a nearly endless supply hidden away, after all.

Let me pose another question: Do you honestly believe that Palpatine in one of his clone bodies would be equal in power to a Palpatine who was in a Skywalker's body? My answer would be, no, Palpatine in a Skywalker body would be much stronger than in his deficient clone body.

She's nowhere near top tier. Like Ragnos probably was. And, I haven't read the quote. I've only heard it float around as an assumption around here. But if there is one, yes, I'd love to see it.

Is the "making the fight on even ground" your interpretation, or what it actually says? I'm trusting you here. 😛

But that's just it. To me, he doesn't have more Force power in his younger body, because the clones are genetically weaker and inferior than his original body. His spirit carries the power, but I would argue that is the case with any Force user. But to go along with that power, you need a powerful body to channel it through. A body strong in the Force, with high Force potential. He doesn't have that. And what you're basically saying, by stating that the physical body doesn't matter, is that someone like Obi-Wan can summon as much power and Force reserves as Anakin can.

And does he disintegrate lightsabers in that body? Does he survive one ton cooling units being dropped on his head? Does he make Luke look stupid within three panels? No. He doesn't display nearly such a high level of power while in Droga. The body matters.

How many times in the literature have we seen things like, "So-and-so closed his eyes and allowed the power of the Force to fill him," or "he could feel the power of the Force coursing through his body," or a great many other things. Yes, this is how things work - the spirit might have the power, but in order to use it, one needs a body which is Force-sensitive to utilize it. The stronger the body is in the Force, the higher the Force potential.

This is why Dark Side spirits and Force Ghosts can do practically nothing in and of themselves. Even though the spirit posseses the knowledge and power, the body is needed to channel those energies. An inferior body is going to be able to channel less of his power, less effectively.

And this is getting a bit into theology, but the spirit does exist prior to death. Recall Yoda saying that we exist primarily as luminous beings (spirits).

Doesn't matter what you think in that regard. The omniscient writer's information overrides that.

No, god damn it, I am not. So the **** what if it is? Naga Sadow turned Yavin 4 into a Dark Side world, does that mean he's anywhere near as powerful as Palpatine? Freedon Nadd turned Onderon into a Dark Side rich world, and then his spirit was able to taint it's moon, Dxun, simply by being entombed there. Does that mean Nadd > Palpatine (since that's actually a much better feat than overriding only one world)? No.

As far as Ludo Kressh on Korriban, he was dueling another Dark Sider, Naga Sadow there. And Ludo doesn't have one fifth of the power Palpatine has. The comparison is beyond insulting.

Furthermore, if Palpatine's increased powers and abilities were not a result of him being enhanced by Byss' dark side energies, instead of saying:

"Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

The author would have said this:

"Palpatine seemed invulernable, his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

See the difference? There's no need to specify such a thing unless it's important.

Also, when they first meet again, Luke believes Palpatine to seem invincible then as well. I believe they were on a ship at that point.
So, we're talking a possible boost form that to even more powerful on Byss?

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Aleema and Satal Keto cause Cinnagar to become a Dark Side planet. That's what Sith alchemy can do. By your own words, Aleema is a weakling.

[/b]

It's never even shown striking him, it's shown when it is still above his head. This is ridiculous. The disintegrating incident never happened. Period.

Odan was two hundred plus years older than Yoda, founded the freakin' great library on Ossus, was a master of battle meditation, created his own holocron, was a master of Force Sever, and rewrote the effing Jedi Code. I think he trumps Yoda in knowledge and mastery, at the very least.

As Odan proves: being bookish is only as good so far until you back back it up. Yoda's shown power to go along with his knowledge. Odan has held the title of 'Jobber of the Jedi' till Bane and Zannah bestowed the title on Johun Othone.

[/b]

No. And you're once again twisting what I say. I never said Palpatine is only powerful on Byss. I said he can only disintegrate Leia's archaic lightsaber and survive cooling units landing on his head to no ill affects because he's on Byss. And that's fact, because it's backed up in the Sourcebook.

If the metal didn't disintegrate, the other explanation was it hit Palpatine so hard it outright shattered

You seem to be arguing that putting a Dark Sider on a Dark Side steeped planet doesn't matter, which is completely false. They would get a large boost in power - the more powerful the world, the more powerful the boost. This is backed up in Path of Destruction, when Bane notes the difference in energy between Korriban, a dead world, and Lehon. "The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban. This is where we will find the power to destroy the Jedi—not in Kaan's Brotherhood!"

[/b]

I hope that was a mistake and not a lie. Luke meets Palpatine for the first time in Dark Empire on Byss. Luke's even in an energy cage being transported into the capital city.

Either way, though, we know Luke feels Palpatine has grown more powerful, several sources back up that Palpatine's power has increased...the idea they're talking about knowledge is a bit silly since it's just 'power.' heck, on the Eclipse, Palpatine is referred to as a 'Dark Nexus' as well.

[/b]

Okay. I understand that. But my question still stands - to you and anyone else:

Both Palpatine and Luke become avatars of the Force, and this presumably increases their skill and power. But as we've seen, from Luke and Galen and Jacen, this is something that happens almost at random. Are you really wanting to use this as evidence of Palpatine's immense skill in combat, given the fact that from what we've seen, Palpatine cannot enter an avatar state at will? [/B]

If he's that much more powerful, it's likely that'll help out in a saber duel.

Originally posted by Faunus
Even though it's basically stated by the author?

Sorry, but no one gets to just ignore canon.

Doesn't matter. Unless one has a high enough midichlorian count, they cannot touch the Force or use it in its most extraordinary fashions (relative to an individual's idea of "extraordinary). By your logic, Obi-Wan Kenobi should be able to do what Yoda and the Emperor are capable of, because his control and understanding of the Force is impressive in its own right.

Originally posted by Faunus

@Ivalice: If you don't care to argue, don't act superior about it. Saying that others should "ignore" Enyalus's post because of one oversight is stupid, and doing it when you're not even inclined to debate period is idiotic.

I said "ignore" his "post" because we all agreed to assess vader and debate his combat abilities and prowess, yet now thanks to enyalus, we got to move back to good ol palpatine and rehash the entire debate, i'm not up for that and tired of it, THATS why i said "ignore", THATS why i didn't "attempt" to "refute" his argument.

By the way, why are you behaving so hostile? But anyways, thanks for not throwing insults at me.

Originally posted by LS
Also, spirits usually aren't very good in combat on neutral terms. Kun had to lure Gantoris to the Dark Side and Luke to the Nexus to have any effect, for instance

Exactly. And Kun was an extremely powerful Force user with a ton of knowledge. 'Cause, you need a body to do just about anything significant. Why is that? Midi-chlorians to channel your force connection through. Inferior clones, getting farther away from the original, and needing genetic material that is strong in the Force, would indicate intuitively that each generation of Palpatine's clone bodies would end up weaker and that his ability to do anything with all that power his spirit possessed would become more and more difficult due to each body lacking so much Force potential of the previous generation. Decaying faster is only the most obvious and external way to realize that the clones are weaker than Palpatine's original.

Originally posted by LS
Now here's where you're confused: the power of Palpatine himself would be the same. It's not known at all if simply taking a Skywalker body would allow him any further powers than he'd already have-he relies on studies and the dark side for that.

If he had the body of Skywalker, his Force potential and power would be substantially higher. Let's not forget that despite being so powerful that 'flesh doesn't easily support this power,' Anakin could have been 200% more powerful than Palpatine at his peak. And this is due completely to his Force potential and midi-chlorian count - despite Palpatine's far more considerable knowledge and your contention that to the Sith, power and knowledge are essentially the same thing. This clearly shows that midi-chlorians make a difference.

Originally posted by LS
He can use all the powers he wants to a very deadly and able degree

But that's where we disagree fundamentally, I think. Due to the impact that midi-chlorians play in the ability to wield the Force effectively.

Originally posted by LS
thing is, the body'll just give out on him in the span of a few years.
Even his old body wasn't immune from this. As Xizor noted in Shadows of the Empire, Palpaitne isn't even THAT old.

Palpatine is 86 when he is killed by Vader in ROTJ. Born in 82 BBY and killed in 4 ABY. Yet, he looks as old or older, and is about to die in his first clone body, 6 years later when DE begins. That is an unbelievable difference in rate of decay. Indicating that the body was severely weaker than his original, as evidenced by it not being able to deal nearly as well with the energies Palpatine has. That is, unless Palpatine's power has more than tripled in six years, from ROTJ to DE - which would explain such an advanced rate of decay. That hardly makes sense.

Originally posted by LS
It doesn't make Palpatine less able in combat, given how easily he bests Luke on normal terms

'Normal terms' is a place where he is 'seemingly invulnerable' and uses his Force abilities practically as an afterthought? Nope. Now, if he had completely tooled him on, say, Pinnacle Base, I'd believe it.

Originally posted by LS
The force is the power. the body's the conduit

Yes, and if your conduit isn't very conductive due to cheap material being used, its going to be less effective in summoning up that latent power and the flow and power will be less than that of a good, original conduit. How's that analogy!? 😛

Originally posted by LS
He can be much more powerful in his clones, because it's HIM who's more powerful

Indulge me for a moment, prentending I'm bying into this theory of yours: how does a disembodied spirit become more powerful after its body's death?

Originally posted by LS
Unless the narrator says "Leia's saber just sucked" what exactly is defending other sabers from being blown apart with the same twitch of the finger? They'd still be subject to the same.

Her lightsaber is older, weaker, and less efficient. Moreover, the feat is attributed to him being on Byss, one of the most powerful Dark Side places in the galaxy. Furthermore, she isn't glowing or anything to indicate that she has any sort of shielding around her. And as she's a barely trained Jedi Knight novice, it doesn't really matter - her talents don't compare to anyone we'd be putting DE Sidious against in a battle.

Originally posted by LS
That's sort of my point, though. Ludo-and by extension Naga...don't they get natural boosts on Korriban or any world of the Sith Empire? With the exception of Byss, no planet can be said to be more powerful in the Dark Side than Korriban.

Yes. Yes they do receive such a boost. But I'd argue that Ziost, Byss, Malachor, and perhaps Lehan are even stronger.

Originally posted by LS
Just as a point of contention, though, we do know Palpatine is the one who corrupted Byss.

What is there to contest? I know Palpatine is the one who corrupted Byss. That does not mean that Byss' Dark Side Power = Part of Palpatine's Personal Power. Like I brought up with Gideon, there's a difference between me making something that will take me 35 mph and me saying, "I can travel at 35 mph."

Originally posted by LS
Also, when they first meet again, Luke believes Palpatine to seem invincible then as well. I believe they were on a ship at that point.
So, we're talking a possible boost form that to even more powerful on Byss?

No, Palpatine's Force Storm takes Luke to an Imperial Dungeon Ship, that flies him to Byss. On Byss he is taken into the capital city and brought to Palpatine's palace to meet Palpatine himself.

Originally posted by LS
An entire order of Krath magicians is probably going to have an effect of their citadel...albeit where was it mentioned Cinnagar had become a Dark Side nexus, now?

I don't recall. I'd imagine somewhere in The Sith Wars, there is a picture of the Jedi and their fleet appraching the Teta System, and a caption mentions it, IIRC.

Your part regarding Odan-Urr was hilarious. So I'll let the inaccuracies go.

Originally posted by LS
So it's his own dark energies essentially feeding back into him? And how powerful do you even need to be to disintegrate a saber, now?
And again, I'm just throwing this out there...what exactly is it about Byss that makes Palpatine's skull more durable? Seeming invincible on Byss would account for his increased power in the force, but it won't do a thing to turn his skin in to iron.

No, that's where I think you're not understanding something. It was Palpatine's power that turned Byss into a place filled with the Dark Side. That's it. That does not mean it is an extension of his power. Were that so, Naga Sadow would be nearly invincible on Yavin, Freedon Nadd would be nearly invincible on Onderon, and Belia Darzu would be nearly invincible when on Tython. Afterall, they'd have an entire planet's energy to call their own, by your reasoning. Think of Zonama Sekot before you reply to that. Please.

So no, he recieves a large boost because he's a Dark Sider using the Dark Side on a Dark Side rich planet. That's that. And what makes his skull more durable? The Force, perhaps? Luke uses it to walk on lava. Bane used it to survive a 30+ meter fall...The list goes on. Obviously it increases durability.

Originally posted by LS
It's one thing to put a Dark Sider on Byss, it's another to put the guy who created the Dark Side on Byss there. By the same token, did Nadd get any benefits from being on Onderon?

Yes. Clearly.

Originally posted by LS
Didn't the storm transport him into a dungeon ship? Or did the ship take him to Byss where he met Palp there?

See previous comments.

Originally posted by LS
When we say 'he' is weak, are his abilities in the Force or battle going to be affected or is he just going to wear out the body faster?

The two are directly connected, since both issues deal with the Force. The bodies can't handle the Force nearly as well. What is stopping you from realizing that that doesn't translate to a loss of combat ability and power?

Originally posted by LS
If you clone a body, however, you're going to clone everything with it and that'd include midichlorians. The inferiority is in the genetic makeup of clones that's natural as it is.

...You just contradicted yourself. "You're going to clone everything including midichlorians," oh, and, "the genetic makeup is inferior." But uh, even if that isn't enough, we have the quote I already posted:

"Because of imperfections in the cloning process, the new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side."

Imperfections. Meaning it doesn't make an exact genetic copy of the original, meaning it gets the midichlorians wrong, meaning each generation of bodies has less Force potential, meaning his ability to use the Force is directly and negatively impacted, meaning he is weaker in combat thanks to having less Force reserves to draw upon; more of a cap on his Force speed; more of a cap on his Force strength; more of a cap on his precognition.

And they all lived happily ever after, the end.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Fair enough faunus, but i made it clear that there were more flaws in his post that i didn't bother to list down, Its more than just one stupid missed assessment.

I said "ignore" his "post" because we all agreed to assess vader and debate his combat abilities and prowess, yet now thanks to enyalus, we got to move back to good ol palpatine and rehash the entire debate, i'm not up for that and tired of it, THATS why i said "ignore", THATS why i didn't "attempt" to "refute" his argument.

Gideon asked why I wasn't able to do this sooner, as well. My response would be that: I'm a full time Masters student at a large university, I work part-time from an office where I do not have access to any Star Wars or personal material, I'm on one of the top rated NCAA fencing teams in the country, I'm writing a dark fantasy novel that is being looked at by an editor for Tor Publishing, I have a girlfriend whom I call nightly, and last and certainly least important - my sister's birthday was Thursday and I needed to do things to prepare for that.

In short, I have a life. I apologize if I have inconvenienced you in any way.

As I recall, Gideon was the one who asked for more elaboration and asked me to take the time to gather the evidence.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon asked why I wasn't able to do this sooner, as well. My response would be that: I'm a full time Masters student at a large university, I work part-time from an office where I do not have access to any Star Wars or personal material, I'm on one of the top rated NCAA fencing teams in the country, I'm writing a dark fantasy novel that is being looked at by an editor for Tor Publishing, I have a girlfriend whom I call nightly, and last and certainly least important - my sister's birthday was Thursday and I needed to do things to prepare for that.

In short, I have a life. I apologize if I have inconvenienced you in any way.

As I recall, Gideon was the one who asked for more elaboration and asked me to take the time to gather the evidence.

I'll list down why i didn't really bother to argue, its true that i do have a life, we all do, other than being a student of graphic and digital media design at a collage, I'm working my ass off preparing for a bodybuilding competition which is a year away and has a much longer way to the mr olympia competitions, i also have family and alot of other commitments which i don't feel like listing down.

Anyways i got to admit, you are an extremely good and very objective debater, you get 2 thumbs up for that 👆 👆

Sorry for double post.

Care to prove that time weakens a spirit? Posted by enyalus.

Well think of it logically, if you were martial arts expert and had not practiced nor fought for decades let alone thousands of years, would your skills be up to date or deteriorated?

I think nadd said somewhere that his spirit was weakened after hundreds of years, its somewhere in TOTJ: DLOTS and i don't have to comic at the moment so i can't get the exact quote.

BTW do you have the DE audio book?

Originally posted by Enyalus

Exactly. And Kun was an extremely powerful Force user with a ton of knowledge. 'Cause, you need a body to do just about anything significant. Why is that? Midi-chlorians to channel your force connection through. Inferior clones, getting farther away from the original, and needing genetic material that is strong in the Force, would indicate intuitively that each generation of Palpatine's clone bodies would end up weaker and that his ability to do anything with all that power his spirit possessed would become more and more difficult due to each body lacking so much Force potential of the previous generation. Decaying faster is only the most obvious and external way to realize that the clones are weaker than Palpatine's original.

[

If he had the body of Skywalker, his Force potential and power would be substantially higher. Let's not forget that despite being so powerful that 'flesh doesn't easily support this power,' Anakin could have been 200% more powerful than Palpatine at his peak. And this is due completely to his Force potential and midi-chlorian count - despite Palpatine's far more considerable knowledge and your contention that to the Sith, power and knowledge are essentially the same thing. This clearly shows that midi-chlorians make a difference.

But that's where we disagree fundamentally, I think. Due to the impact that midi-chlorians play in the ability to wield the Force effectively.

Palpatine is 86 when he is killed by Vader in ROTJ. Born in 82 BBY and killed in 4 ABY. Yet, he looks as old or older, and is about to die in his first clone body, 6 years later when DE begins.

That is an unbelievable difference in rate of decay. Indicating that the body was severely weaker than his original, as evidenced by it not being able to deal nearly as well with the energies Palpatine has. That is, unless Palpatine's power has more than tripled in six years, from ROTJ to DE - which would explain such an advanced rate of decay. That hardly makes sense.

'Normal terms' is a place where he is 'seemingly invulnerable' and uses his Force abilities practically as an afterthought? Nope. Now, if he had completely tooled him on, say, Pinnacle Base, I'd believe it.

Yes, and if your conduit isn't very conductive due to cheap material being used, its going to be less effective in summoning up that latent power and the flow and power will be less than that of a good, original conduit. How's [b]that analogy!? 😛

Indulge me for a moment, prentending I'm bying into this theory of yours: how does a disembodied spirit become more powerful after its body's death?

Her lightsaber is older, weaker, and less efficient. Moreover, the feat is attributed to him being on Byss, one of the most powerful Dark Side places in the galaxy.

Furthermore, she isn't glowing or anything to indicate that she has any sort of shielding around her.

And as she's a barely trained Jedi Knight novice, it doesn't really matter - her talents don't compare to anyone we'd be putting DE Sidious against in a battle.

Yes. Yes they do receive such a boost. But I'd argue that Ziost, Byss, Malachor, and perhaps Lehan are even stronger.

What is there to contest? I know Palpatine is the one who corrupted Byss. That does not mean that Byss' Dark Side Power = Part of Palpatine's Personal Power. Like I brought up with Gideon, there's a difference between me making something that will take me 35 mph and me saying, "I can travel at 35 mph."

No, Palpatine's Force Storm takes Luke to an Imperial Dungeon Ship, that flies him to Byss. On Byss he is taken into the capital city and brought to Palpatine's palace to meet Palpatine himself.

I don't recall. I'd imagine somewhere in The Sith Wars, there is a picture of the Jedi and their fleet appraching the Teta System, and a caption mentions it, IIRC.

No, that's where I think you're not understanding something. It was Palpatine's power that turned Byss into a place filled with the Dark Side. That's it. That does not mean it is an extension of his power. Were that so, Naga Sadow would be nearly invincible on Yavin, Freedon Nadd would be nearly invincible on Onderon, and Belia Darzu would be nearly invincible when on Tython. Afterall, they'd have an entire planet's energy to call their own, by your reasoning. Think of Zonama Sekot before you reply to that. Please.

So no, he recieves a large boost because he's a Dark Sider using the Dark Side on a Dark Side rich planet. That's that. And what makes his skull more durable? The Force, perhaps? Luke uses it to walk on lava. Bane used it to survive a 30+ meter fall...The list goes on. Obviously it increases durability.

[/b]
The two are directly connected, since both issues deal with the Force. The bodies can't handle the Force nearly as well. What is stopping you from realizing that that doesn't translate to a loss of combat ability and power?

Of anything in canon I've read, nothing supports your theory. The only weakness is the bodies die quicker. That's IT.

[/b]

...You just contradicted yourself. "You're going to clone everything including midichlorians," oh, and, "the genetic makeup is inferior." But uh, even if that isn't enough, we have the quote I already posted:

"Because of imperfections in the cloning process, the new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side."

Imperfections. Meaning it doesn't make an exact genetic copy of the original, meaning it gets the midichlorians wrong, meaning each generation of bodies has less Force potential, meaning his ability to use the Force is directly and negatively impacted, meaning he is weaker in combat thanks to having less Force reserves to draw upon; more of a cap on his Force speed; more of a cap on his Force strength; more of a cap on his precognition.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Midichlorians are not the be all end all according to Lucas.

No, it doesn't. Anakin's issues are just as psyvchological according to RoDV.

All a skywalker would do would be able to hold him and nothing else is said throughout DE

Their unrivaled sensitivity to the Force, enabled by their unprecedented midichlorian levels.

Palpatine was already the most Powerful Sith in ROTS. Fact: He's grown stronger since then.

Your logic is starting to become really annoying.

Because Palpatine, the most powerful Sith ever, is going to be stopped by a Force Shield

You'll note that the "most powerful Sith ever" had his full-power lightning turned on him by Yoda, who was then in a vastly inferior position. It happened again with Starkiller.

While little novice Leia might not be able to stop an attack, there isn't exactly a shortage of individuals who probably can.

What does Zonama Sekot have to do with anything? And again, Sadow and Nad ddid not corrupt the entire planets, and Tython was a Dark Side world before Belia arrived there.
If this is the case, then comparing DE Palpatine to numerous other Sith should be fair since most of them tend to have their best feats on Dark Side worlds as well

Bane survived only because of the Orbalisks as they heal injuries. he says so himself. At no point have I seen a Force user use the force to make their head less susceptible to being crushed.

Bane fell over a kilometer with three thirty-foot drexls and four humans on top of him, creating a crater that was, I believe, six feet deep and formed a solid mass of fused flesh and bone. He then gets up and walks away, while the orbalisks heal his broken arm. He survived because he's a Force-user, and the orbalisks complemented that. You ignore that he manages to stay active (understatement) with armored parasites attaching themselves to his entire body by burrowing into his flesh and bone. Incredible? I think so.

Obi-Wan. Falls a few stories onto a walkway on his back, rolls off of the edge, and then springs back up and shortly afterward rejoins the fight. In the Clone Wars, he has his skull cracked open by Durge, and then proceeds to duel Ventress.

Anakin. Leaps out of a speeder, falls a respectable fraction of a kilometer onto another speeder. Aboard the Invisible Hand, he supports the weight of two other men hanging from his back and leg without dislocating his shoulders.

Yoda. Gets blown back several meters, fall several hundred meters, lands hard, and then runs.

So yeah, I'd say Palpatine "shrugging off" - author's words, stop ignoring them - a ton of machinery while on the most potent dark side planet in the galaxy isn't too unbelievable.

Even if he's receiving a boost on Byss, his power is incredibly substantial off of it. He has no issue on the Eclipse, for instance.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Show me a quote of Palpatine saying midichlorians and I'll drop the point,

because this is your interpretation and it's clearly contradicted by numerous canon. The cloning process is imperfect, that means nothing to midis, just that the clone is genetically inferior.

More midichlorians = greater ability to manipulate the Force. That simple. This is why you never see Obi-Wan levitating capital ships.

This nonsense is getting old fast. I'm providing canon against you and you constantly ignore it in favor of your own interpretation
It doesn't matter how much sense your theory makes. YOU DON'T GET TO DIRECTLY IGNORE CANON