Project Holocron

Originally posted by Faunus
Stop being daft, Lightsnake. The midichlorians don't create the Force, but when present in a high enough concentration they allow for sensitivity to it. If you don't have enough midichlorians, you can't touch the Force. It's really that simple, and there's a reason they were included in TPM.

No one's arguing that, but everything he did on Byss was exceptional and possible only because [b]he was on Byss. [/B]

As I said, I find Enyalus's conclusion-that Palpatine in Dark Empire is weaker than any other incarnation, to be flawed, outright contradicted and based upon a support only by strict Force user biology which, again, is contradicted directly by canon and supported by nothing.

how is it contradicted by canon when GL is the highest canon?

Unless Lucas has given us a treatise on how beings changing bodies have their Force powers affected, it's not much an issue considering how much else just says Palpatine is more powerful.

Originally posted by LS
It is DIRECTLY STATED Palpatine has become more powerful in the Dark Side and the Force.

Palpatine himself states that. Luke feels he's stronger than the last time they met. And Leia notes that the Dark Side of the Force was stronger than ever before. Those are the three instances in DE where something like that is stated.

Palpatine is a liar. Luke was feeling him while he was empowered on Byss and surrounded by his Dark Side acolytes, clone bodies and alchemy. And when Leia says what she says, she's also feeling Luke - who at that point had gone further over to the Dark Side than ever before - off of Byss, on Palpatine's ship. Which must mean that Luke was pretty damn strong at that point.

Clone body or no. The most you can argue is that he's not as powerful as he could be, which is still far more powerful than anyone else...Stop throwing in this nonsense, Enyalus. The Midichlorians would all be there in a clone...

Uh, wrong. And I've posted the evidence half a dozen times now.

"Because of imperfections in the cloning process, the new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side."
"Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster."
"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force..."

Let's look at this logically and perform a thought experiment here. Midi-chlorians are needed to effectively channel the Force. Higher midichlorians indicate higher Force potential and more power to channel. Palpatine's original body was able to handle channeling the Dark Side energies for a vastly longer amount of time than his clone bodies. Palpatine's clones were inferior and weaker than his original body, decaying at a much faster rate. This is due to 'imperfections' in the cloning process. Palpatine needs new genetic material that is strong in the Force. Strong in the Force genetic material would have a higher midichlorian count than his current clones, because of those imperfections in the cloning process. Thus, Palpatine's clone bodies possessed a lower midichlorian count than his original body. Ergo, Palpatine's Force potential in his clone body is lower than that of his original body. This means that regardless of whatever power Palpatine's spirit has, Palpatine will not be able to channel those powers as affectively nor realize his full potential in such an inferior body. This effects his combat abilities negatively, obviously, and makes him inferior in battle when compared to other incarnations.

Ultimatium: Show me a source saying that Palpatine is weaker.
Since it's been a long time since DE came out, there needs to be one. I've shown you ones saying he's stronger. Your turn.

I never said Palpatine was weaker. I said he was weaker in combat/less effective. If it says that his spirit has grown stronger, fine. Spirits in an of themselves can't do a damn thing. They need a body with high Force potential. Palpatine's clones are not that. Furthermore, I've dealt with the so called quotes you've used. The majority of which are taken out of context or referring to something entirely different. See my comments above regarding Leia's comments and Palpatine's boasts.

86 ain't that old in SW. Humans can live up to 120 or so naturally

Exactly. That just furthers my point. The first clone body we see in DE was about to die and transition to a new one in only 6 years. Moreover, Palpatine was murdered. We have no idea how much longer he might have lived in his original.

And? In fact, let's look at what DE says. End notes of issue 4:
"The energies of the Dark Side eat away as the flesh and fiber of his being. But he grows continuously more powerful in the ways of the Dark Side."

And there's a need for the bolded part why? 'In the ways of' obviously mean in his study and understanding of the Dark Side of the Force. If it said simply, "but he grows continuously more powerful," that would be rather clear cut, wouldn't it?

Palpatine was already the most Powerful Sith in ROTS. Fact: He's grown stronger since then.

So the bloody hell what? He's now 'seemingly invulnerable' everywhere? No. Only on Byss does he have that level of power. Obviously. As the author states it.

Palpatine never died an actual death save anything else than body. He returned to another body and became more powerful there

Yeah...that's sort of what death is. A destruction of the body, y'know? Or am I going to have to resort to your argument and say something like "Explain Force Ghosts." ?

And what's going to prevent him from doing it so simply anywhere else now?
And her saber is practically modern. The oldest sabers are 25,000 years old. When does it state Leia's is flimsy?

The feat is attributed to him only being on Byss and having increased power there. Drop it. Palpatine calls Leia's saber unworthy and the omniscient writer states that modern lightsabers are more efficient. The fact that they don't use the word 'flimsy' or S-P-E-L-L it out does not make it any less true. Drop it.

Because Palpatine, the most powerful Sith ever, is going to be stopped by a Force Shield

If he isn't on Byss or another Dark Side steeped world, exactly. And last I checked, Yoda was able to deflect Sidious' vaunted lightning. And in DE itself, obviously something - probably Force shields - kept Palpatine from possessing Luke's body, since he asks for permission and is denied instead of simply taking it. Yeah. Force Shields are pretty neat things.

When you consider it's all Palpatine's energy feeding into him...

No, it's not. How many times have I covered it already? Palpatine's presence darkened the world. That does not mean that Palpatine intentionally coursed his power through the entire world to continuously loop back and feed him his own power. The point in doing that would be?? When he could obviously just keep it all inside of himself, if your completely unfounded theory were true.

Even if he's receiving a boost on Byss, his power is incredibly substantial off of it. He has no issue on the Eclipse, for instance

Based on what, exactly? Him becoming an avatar of darkness and losing a duel? Him creating a Force Storm? Remember my premise - Palpatine's weaker in combat. I could care less just how powerful he is. So he's proven he can create Force Storms on a world where he's getting a tremendous boost in power, or on his own ship (also a vessel of the Dark Side). So what?

It is outright stated he is no longer defined by physical form and he is called more powerful than ever.

Yes. Palpatine has transcended flesh. Meaning, when he dies, he's not dead. What's difficult to understand about that?

Show me a quote of Palpatine saying midichlorians and I'll drop the point, because this is your interpretation and it's clearly contradicted by numerous canon. The cloning process is imperfect, that means nothing to midis, just that the clone is genetically inferior. EVERYTHING would be cloned from EVERY cell and if you hang on Midis, that includes them.
Show me a quote saying his ability to use the Force is hampered. Go on. Just. ONE. Not your opinion, one direct canon quote.
Face it, Enyalus. Your theory might make sense, it might have logic to it, but canon is against it. Palpatine is constantly referred to as having transcended flesh, no longer defined by physical form, more powerful than ever, having grown more powerful in the Force, the Dark Side. His force reserves are unaffected.

Once again,

Midi-chlorians are needed to effectively channel the Force. Higher midichlorians indicate higher Force potential and more power to channel. Palpatine's original body was able to handle channeling the Dark Side energies for a vastly longer amount of time than his clone bodies. Palpatine's clones were inferior and weaker than his original body, decaying at a much faster rate. This is due to 'imperfections' in the cloning process. Palpatine needs new genetic material that is strong in the Force. Strong in the Force genetic material would have a higher midichlorian count than his current clones, because of those imperfections in the cloning process. Thus, Palpatine's clone bodies possessed a lower midichlorian count than his original body. Ergo, Palpatine's Force potential in his clone body is lower than that of his original body. This means that regardless of whatever power Palpatine's spirit has, Palpatine will not be able to channel those powers as affectively nor realize his full potential in such an inferior body. This effects his combat abilities negatively, obviously, and makes him inferior in battle when compared to other incarnations.

Or Faunus sums it up very well:

Originally posted by Faunus
You understand that DE came out several years before midichlorians were even invented, right? What Enyalus is doing is transposing older material to fit with newer material.... Let's see. Boba Fett didn't start experiencing real problems with his genes until his seventies or so. Palpatine's clone bodies were gone by six. Why? Because they couldn't handle the dark energies he wielded - quite simply, what he wanted to do with Force was beyond their ability to withstand. You know where else this happened? When Dorsk 81 Force-pushed a fleet of Star Destroyers out of a planetary system by channeling the energies of several others. His body couldn't handle the strain. He died.

More midichlorians = greater ability to manipulate the Force. That simple. This is why you never see Obi-Wan levitating capital ships.

Enyalus, i'm totally lost on one of your points here. I mean, we've established that Sidious' bodies are decaying faster, but what was your evidence that this was due to less midichlorians? I'm sure you already covered this, but if you could direct me to the page that the post is on, i'd appreciate it

Originally posted by Pwned61
Enyalus, i'm totally lost on one of your points here. I mean, we've established that Sidious' bodies are decaying faster, but what was your evidence that this was due to less midichlorians? I'm sure you already covered this, but if you could direct me to the page that the post is on, i'd appreciate it

Page 20 is where my original argument is. Although halfway through it there's a major error made, because I used something Sidious said that was later retconned, regarding the first time Sidious died.

But nonetheless, you can see the evidence for Palpatine's clones having less midichlorians in my very last post. There are, however, more quotes which actually support that on Page 20. I just didn't bother to repost some of the quotes every single time.

Essentially, my logic went something like:

Palpatine's clones decayed much faster than the original.
Why?
Well, the cloning process was imperfect and was getting farther and farther away from the original.
In what way?
They weren't as strong in the Force.
What does that indicate?
Less midichlorians.

That they were visibly decaying faster is just the external, obvious evidence. We must probe deeper and ask why they were, and what caused this change.

And you have my answer to that.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Palpatine himself states that. Luke feels he's stronger than the last time they met. And Leia notes that the Dark Side of the Force was stronger than ever before. Those are the three instances in DE where something like that is stated.

Palpatine is a liar. Luke was feeling him while he was empowered on Byss and surrounded by his Dark Side acolytes, clone bodies and alchemy. And when Leia says what she says, she's also feeling Luke - who at that point had gone further over to the Dark Side than ever before - off of Byss, on Palpatine's ship. Which must mean that Luke was pretty damn strong at that point.

Uh, wrong. And I've posted the evidence half a dozen times now.

"Because of imperfections in the cloning process, the new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side."
"Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster."
"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force..."

Let's look at this logically and perform a thought experiment here. Midi-chlorians are needed to effectively channel the Force.

Higher midichlorians indicate higher Force potential and more power to channel. Palpatine's original body was able to handle channeling the Dark Side energies for a vastly longer amount of time than his clone bodies. Palpatine's clones were inferior and weaker than his original body, decaying at a much faster rate. This is due to 'imperfections' in the cloning process. Palpatine needs new genetic material that is strong in the Force. Strong in the Force genetic material would have a higher midichlorian count than his current clones, because of those imperfections in the cloning process. Thus, Palpatine's clone bodies possessed a lower midichlorian count than his original body. Ergo, Palpatine's Force potential in his clone body is lower than that of his original body. This means that regardless of whatever power Palpatine's spirit has, Palpatine will not be able to channel those powers as affectively nor realize his full potential in such an inferior body. This effects his combat abilities negatively, obviously, and makes him inferior in battle when compared to other incarnations.

I never said Palpatine was weaker. I said he was weaker in combat/less effective.

If it says that his spirit has grown stronger, fine. Spirits in an of themselves can't do a damn thing.

They need a body with high Force potential. Palpatine's clones are not that.

Furthermore, I've dealt with the so called quotes you've used. The majority of which are taken out of context or referring to something entirely different. See my comments above regarding Leia's comments and Palpatine's boasts.

Exactly. That just furthers my point. The first clone body we see in DE was about to die and transition to a new one in only [b]6 years. Moreover, Palpatine was murdered. We have no idea how much longer he might have lived in his original.

And there's a need for the bolded part why? 'In the ways of' obviously mean in his study and understanding of the Dark Side of the Force. If it said simply, "but he grows continuously more powerful," that would be rather clear cut, wouldn't it?

So the bloody hell what? He's now 'seemingly invulnerable' everywhere? No. Only on Byss does he have that level of power. Obviously. As the author states it.

Yeah...that's sort of what death is. A destruction of the body, y'know? Or am I going to have to resort to your argument and say something like "Explain Force Ghosts." ?

The feat is attributed to him only being on Byss and having increased power there. Drop it. Palpatine calls Leia's saber unworthy and the omniscient writer states that modern lightsabers are more efficient. The fact that they don't use the word 'flimsy' or S-P-E-L-L it out does not make it any less true. Drop it.

If he isn't on Byss or another Dark Side steeped world, exactly. And last I checked, Yoda was able to deflect Sidious' vaunted lightning. And in DE itself, obviously something - probably Force shields - kept Palpatine from possessing Luke's body, since he asks for permission and is denied instead of simply taking it.

Yeah. Force Shields are pretty neat things.

No, it's not. How many times have I covered it already? Palpatine's presence darkened the world. That does not mean that Palpatine intentionally coursed his power through the entire world to continuously loop back and feed him his own power. The point in doing that would be?? When he could obviously just keep it all inside of himself, if your completely unfounded theory were true.

Based on what, exactly? Him becoming an avatar of darkness and losing a duel?

Him creating a Force Storm? Remember my premise - Palpatine's weaker in combat. I could care less just how powerful he is. So he's proven he can create Force Storms on a world where he's getting a tremendous boost in power, or on his own ship (also a vessel of the Dark Side). So what?

Yes. Palpatine has transcended flesh. Meaning, when he dies, he's not dead. What's difficult to understand about that?

Once again,

Midi-chlorians are needed to effectively channel the Force. Higher midichlorians indicate higher Force potential and more power to channel. Palpatine's original body was able to handle channeling the Dark Side energies for a vastly longer amount of time than his clone bodies. Palpatine's clones were inferior and weaker than his original body, decaying at a much faster rate. This is due to 'imperfections' in the cloning process. Palpatine needs new genetic material that is strong in the Force. Strong in the Force genetic material would have a higher midichlorian count than his current clones, because of those imperfections in the cloning process. Thus, Palpatine's clone bodies possessed a lower midichlorian count than his original body. Ergo, Palpatine's Force potential in his clone body is lower than that of his original body. This means that regardless of whatever power Palpatine's spirit has, Palpatine will not be able to channel those powers as affectively nor realize his full potential in such an inferior body. This effects his combat abilities negatively, obviously, and makes him inferior in battle when compared to other incarnations.

Or Faunus sums it up very well:
[/b] [/B]

With this in mind, Palpatine's power and his level of effectiveness with it remain firmly unaffected. The only difference is the body dies faster.

That's it.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Essentially, my logic went something like:

Palpatine's clones decayed much faster than the original.
Why?
Well, the cloning process was imperfect and was getting farther and farther away from the original.
In what way?
They weren't as strong in the Force.
What does that indicate?
Less midichlorians.

That they were visibly decaying faster is just the external, obvious evidence. We must probe deeper and ask why they were, and what caused this change.

And you have my answer to that.

This all seems like a pretty big stretch to me Enyalus, i mean, there's something missing in all that. We all of course agree that the clones are decaying faster, that's just fact. But then you go on to say that it's because they're weaker in the force, basically your using the decay as the evidence for the reason of the decay, you're missing evidence here.

What we need to see to really take your theory and make it more plausible is some evidence that his abilities have been in some way hampered. If the clones truly were lacking in midichlorian levels compared to the origina, then there would be some detriment in Sidious' performance, his ability to summon the force. Yet from what I remember Sidious is shown to be no weaker than what he was before.

once again though, I've come into this argument later (which I apologize for) and I've only read half of what everyone's posted (again, sorry), so if this has already been addressed, please just point me in the direction of the relevant post.

Okay, I'm only going to address a few of these points, because I'm only repeating myself using different synonyms now, which is getting annoying.

Originally posted by LS
For starters:
1. Leia's saber is practically modern compared to the earlier sabers. Whatever they intended, that's long been taken care of.
2. How difficult is the 'destroy saber' feat and why exactly will he not have the energy to destroy it anywhere else? Does this mean he's going to have to flick two fingers instead of one?
3. how does the saber's craftsmanship make the difference here? The narrator says ancient sabers are weaker. All well and good, but hey, wait a tick...they mastered how to make proper, sturdy sabers ten thousand years before Leia's was made.

One and three were already dealt with, several times now. As for #2? I don't know. How difficult is it, exactly? He is the only one to ever do it. Once. On a planet that makes him 'seemingly invulnerable' and the use of his Force powers 'an afterthought.' If he can do it off Byss, he engages Luke in a duel and loses instead of disintegrating Luke's lightsaber why, exactly? Right. Please don't respond with "'cause he didn't want to." You will remember he's desparate. And that that's his only clone body that he knows still exists. Thank you.

Originally posted by LS
Nothing kept him from possessing Luke at that point save that he simply chose the Clone.

I'm sorry, did you actually try to pass this BS off as sound reasoning? Seriously? "Oh, I want a Skywalker body so I won't decay. But screw it, I don't care if Luke's right here and the most powerful Force user ever. I'm gonna jump in one of my inferior copies." Jesus.

Originally posted by LS
If your opponent can't rip through them like paper. Look at what Bane did to Farfalla's...that's what throwing up a force shield would do to stop Palpatine in almost every instance

Bane was leagues about Farfalla in power. You going to tell me that based on what DE Sidious has displayed, he's leagues above Yoda, or Bane, or Kyp, or Caedus, or Luke, etc? Please.

Originally posted by LS
A. they lack midichlorians. Nothing supports you on this. Not. A. Thing. When Force users are cloned, everything transfers over, as C'Baoth has shone. C'Baoth's clone, for instance, cloned using the exact same technology, is more powerful than the original.

And:

Originally posted by Pwned61
We all of course agree that the clones are decaying faster, that's just fact. But then you go on to say that it's because they're weaker in the force, basically your using the decay as the evidence for the reason of the decay, you're missing evidence here.

In fact, they do lack midichlorians, and I've posted the evidence again and again.

"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force, with which he could create a new, endless source of clones."
"[Palpatine] kidnapped the best of the Ysanna [humanoids native to Ossus who were naturally Force-sensitive] as genetic stock for a new line of clones."

Genetic genetic material that is strong in the force = genetic material with a lot of midichlorians in it. Fact.

Why does he need this new material? Because the new clones were 'imperfect' copies so 'far from the original,' and each sucessive genetation of clones would thus have fewer and fewer midichlorians, as a direct result of 'imperfections in the cloning process.'

Please. It isn't spelled out. But use some reasoning. This is obviously what is meant by 'genetic material that's strong in the force,' since the concept of Midichlorians were not invented in 1991, when DE came out.

Moreover, C'Baoth's clones were never described as imperfect or being farther and farther from the original, so that subpoint of yours is a totally irrelevant strawman.

There's another explanation for why Palpatine's clone decay so much faster than the original that doesn't use midichlorians. Let's explore that line of thought, so everyone may see the difference:

Let's suppose that the clone bodies Palpatine uses are artificially aged to age 20.

Now grant that Palpatine's original body, who's been channeling Dark Side energies for upwards of 75 years, was also decaying. However, he was 86 at the time of his murder by Vader, and by all indications, would have continued to live for a while longer.

Now, once we see Palpatine's clone for the first time in DE, it is 6 years after ROTJ. His body is 26 - yet he looks older than he does in ROTJ. Moreover, he's about to die. Thus, the original body had a lifespan of at least 86 years, while the initial clone had a lifespan of 26.

This can be explained by saying that from ROTJ to DE, Palpatine's power has increased by 3.5 times over. I repeat, power-wise, the initial DE Sidious is equal to three and a half ROTJ Sidiouses.

One must ask, why? He didn't gain any new holocrons and such during those six years. The only rational explanation: death increased his power by that amount.

Now then, once Palpatine dies in DE and takes his second clone body, he must have increased in strength by a factor of 3.5 times again, making him 7 times more powerful than ROTJ Sidious for his battle aboard the Eclipse II.

He dies at the end of Dark Empire, and I think one final time during the series.

Thus, by Empire's End he is 10.5 times stronger than ROTJ Sidious, who was already the strongest Sith Lord in history and more powerful than Yoda, who was the strongest Jedi in history.

If in fact any of you wish to state that this theory is the correct one, and DE Sidious is in fact 7 times stronger than ROTJ - well, I have nothing to refute that.

However, it is clearly ridiculous. My midichlorian explanation is much more plausible.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay, I'm only going to address a few of these points, because I'm only repeating myself using different synonyms now, which is getting annoying.

One and three were already dealt with, several times now. As for #2? I don't know. How difficult is it, exactly? He is the only one to ever do it. Once. On a planet that makes him 'seemingly invulnerable' and the use of his Force powers 'an afterthought.' If he can do it off Byss, he engages Luke in a duel and loses instead of disintegrating Luke's lightsaber why, exactly? Right. Please don't respond with "'cause he didn't want to." You will remember he's desparate. And that that's his only clone body that he knows still exists. Thank you.

[/b]

I'm sorry, did you actually try to pass this BS off as sound reasoning? Seriously? "Oh, I want a Skywalker body so I won't decay. But screw it, I don't care if Luke's right here and the most powerful Force user ever. I'm gonna jump in one of my inferior copies." Jesus.

[/b]

Bane was leagues about Farfalla in power. You going to tell me that based on what DE Sidious has displayed, he's leagues above Yoda, or Bane, or Kyp, or Caedus, or Luke, etc? Please.

[/b]

And:

[/b]

In fact, they do lack midichlorians, and I've posted the evidence again and again.

"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force, with which he could create a new, endless source of clones."
"[Palpatine] kidnapped the best of the Ysanna [humanoids native to Ossus who were naturally Force-sensitive] as genetic stock for a new line of clones."

Genetic genetic material that is strong in the force = genetic material with a lot of midichlorians in it. Fact.

Why does he need this new material? Because the new clones were 'imperfect' copies so 'far from the original,' and each sucessive genetation of clones would thus have fewer and fewer midichlorians, as a direct result of 'imperfections in the cloning process.'

Please. It isn't spelled out. But use some reasoning.

This is obviously what is meant by 'genetic material that's strong in the force,' since the concept of Midichlorians were not invented in 1991, when DE came out.

Moreover, C'Baoth's clones were never described as imperfect or being farther and farther from the original, so that subpoint of yours is a totally irrelevant strawman. [/B]

Now, ultimatium: Show me a source of canon and not your flawed reasoning saying Palpaitne is weaker in DE, since everything says he's stronger.
Don't have one? Then guess who's wrong, because your reasoning doesn't overpower canon fact, no matter how good it sounds

Originally posted by Enyalus
There's another explanation for why Palpatine's clone decay so much faster than the original that doesn't use midichlorians. Let's explore that line of thought, so everyone may see the difference:

Let's suppose that the clone bodies Palpatine uses are artificially aged to age 20.

Now grant that Palpatine's original body, who's been channeling Dark Side energies for upwards of 75 years, was also decaying. However, he was 86 at the time of his murder by Vader, and by all indications, would have continued to live for a while longer.

Now, once we see Palpatine's clone for the first time in DE, it is 6 years after ROTJ. His body is 26 - yet he looks older than he does in ROTJ. Moreover, he's about to die. Thus, the original body had a lifespan of at least 86 years, while the initial clone had a lifespan of 26.

This can be explained by saying that from ROTJ to DE, Palpatine's power has increased by 3.5 times over. I repeat, power-wise, the initial DE Sidious is equal to three and a half ROTJ Sidiouses.

One must ask, why? He didn't gain any new holocrons and such during those six years. The only rational explanation: death increased his power by that amount.

Now then, once Palpatine dies in DE and takes his second clone body, he must have increased in strength by a factor of 3.5 times again, making him 7 times more powerful than ROTJ Sidious for his battle aboard the Eclipse II.

He dies at the end of Dark Empire, and I think one final time during the series.

Thus, by Empire's End he is 10.5 times stronger than ROTJ Sidious, who was already the strongest Sith Lord in history and more powerful than Yoda, who was the strongest Jedi in history.

If in fact any of you wish to state that this theory is the correct one, and DE Sidious is in fact 7 times stronger than ROTJ - well, I have nothing to refute that.

However, it is clearly ridiculous. My midichlorian explanation is much more plausible.

Oh, and FYI: The last clone was prematurely tampered with by his private physician. It was aging and dying far faster than it should have.

Don't forget when you accelerate a clone's aging, it doesn't stop at a certain point, the aging keeps going at that rate. That's why the Kaminoan clones aged over three times faster than normal

Originally posted by Enyalus

In fact, they do lack midichlorians, and I've posted the evidence again and again.

"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed [b]fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force, with which he could create a new, endless source of clones."
"[Palpatine] kidnapped the best of the Ysanna [humanoids native to Ossus who were naturally Force-sensitive] as genetic stock for a new line of clones."

Genetic genetic material that is strong in the force = genetic material with a lot of midichlorians in it. Fact.

Why does he need this new material? Because the new clones were 'imperfect' copies so 'far from the original,' and each sucessive genetation of clones would thus have fewer and fewer midichlorians, as a direct result of 'imperfections in the cloning process.'

Please. It isn't spelled out. But use some reasoning. This is obviously what is meant by 'genetic material that's strong in the force,' since the concept of Midichlorians were not invented in 1991, when DE came out.
[/B]

I don't see how any of that suggests that the clones he had used up till that point were lacking in midichlorians though. "Far from the original?", doesn't that simply acknowledge that the clones are lasting less and less? And in the passage you quoted all he mentions is that he needs a source to continue to make clones, to my knowledge he doesn't ever mention the clones being any 'weaker' than the his original body in terms of his force power, in fact he claims quite the opposite correct?

Also, I still don't see a discrepancy in power, if he really was weakening with each successive clone, then wouldn't he not be able to summon the same kind of power he normally would? Seeing as how the whole point of your argument is that DE Sidious was weaker than his previous incarnations, it seems the most important thing to show is that he is no longer capable of doing what he once was.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Also, I still don't see a discrepancy in power, if he really was weakening with each successive clone, then wouldn't he not be able to summon the same kind of power he normally would? Seeing as how the whole point of your argument is that DE Sidious was weaker than his previous incarnations, it seems the most important thing to show is that he is no longer capable of doing what he once was.

What kind of power is he summoning? The Force Storm comes from a manipulation of external energies. He isn't channeling the power internally. He gets hit in the head with a cooling unit. His disintegrating lightsaber feat was due to the power boost he received when on Byss. Besides that, here are a list of the notable things he does:

Uses Force Lightning on Leia without killing her.
Uses Force Lightning on Luke without killing him.
Gets electrocuted when he tries touching Leia's belly.
Duels Luke on Byss and wins.
Duels Luke on the Eclipse II and loses.

That's it. That's the great DE Sidious's feats. So, what kind of power do you think he's summoning?

Despite that, Luke is said to know he's grown stronger than ever and numerous sources back that up. DE even says he's growing more and more powerful That's pretty hard to overlook, En.

And really, stop disparaging the Force Storm...you do need 'incredible' power to channel yourself like that to literally shatter time and space. There's a reason Palpatine and only Palpatine exhibits that power.

Bane had to be damn powerful to do the whole 'blast Ruusan' thing, for instance.

Given what he knows and what he's learned since, is there anything you have to show he's even remotely weak?

Excuse the incredible delay, gentlemen, but my computer was almost KO'd by a particularly nasty piece of Spyware called Virtumonde -- brought about from trying to download the second Rebellion Era Rulebook from http://www.sweu.ru. Be careful of that particular download.

One thing I will address now, however:

Originally posted by Faunus
- The fact that Palpatine was responsible for the creation of the darkness on Byss does not mean that his personal, raw power was the sole cause behind it.

A pleasant resort world used by Emperor Palpatine as a personal retreat, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core. Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy.

Palpatine made sure to draw the most eager and blissfully ignorant nobles and leaders to Byss. Once the populace had settled into their new lives in an Imperial utopia, the Emperor initiated his true plans for the world. Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments.

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's evil machinations.

All taken from the Wizards of the Coast article on Byss and the Deep Core. Please stop splitting hairs, Faunus. Byss was once a lush and fertile world transformed into an extraordinarily powerful dark side site by the Emperor's dark side energies. It's incontrovertible and it is not up for a debate.

Originally posted by Gideon
Excuse the incredible delay, gentlemen, but my computer was almost KO'd by a particularly nasty piece of Spyware called Virtumonde -- brought about from trying to download the second Rebellion Era Rulebook from http://www.sweu.ru. Be careful of that particular download.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Naw, you got that virus from surfing too much pornography 😖

Nah.

So like, what have you guys actually managed to get done in the last 24 pages?