Project Holocron

Originally posted by Gideon
Heroes comes on in, like, five minutes. Yay.

You are my hero, I would have completely missed it tonight.

Originally posted by LS
And we know more Sith Lords fought there and at Kirrek and Cinnagar.

"I'm trying to use my Jedi battle meditation...maybe it will help...but it does not seem possible to sway the single-minded fury of the Massassi"

"Seeing other fighters retreat, the Massassi invaders push forward."

That's on Kirrek.

Yeah, and considering at no point does this ever make even the slightest bit of difference in a fight, the point seems rather moot. the Sith Swords block sabers, we know that

The point is moot to you, apparently, because you missed it. "Sith Swords are effective against lightsabers..." There you have it. Stop arguing.

And yes, we've seen Exar use his amulets on people totally incapable of fighting back. Lets see a Force User try to use the amulets on another Force User. Somehow...I doubt they'd be as effective

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard while on KMC. I can't even think of a response because my brain, when reading that, goes, "...What?"

The Massassi can't even speak Gav's language. Naga said all the decisions lay with Gav. He makes Gav his number 2 and takes no precautions against him. Period.

Gav: "Me?! But I've never commanded anything before! I don't --"
Sadow: "My Massassi warriors will assist you, Gav. But the decisions must be yours."

Yeah, the Massassi were advising him. As stated.

Everywhere in the CITY.

Empress Teta: "This tactical screen shows all the prongs of the Sith attack against the Republic."
Jori: "They're striking everywhere at once."

It wasn't just one city, it wasn't just Coruscant. Stop lying.

He's reporting what Vader is thinking. Problem? The elaborations are all the narrator.

Yeah. What Vader is thinking. And hence, it is from Vader's point of view. What do you not understand about that? Since you just admitted it. And if the quote is from Vader's POV, clearly, it is fallible.

And you people want to pick at my quote regarding Palpatine not disintegrating the cooling unit. This is absurd.

Originally posted by Enyalus

"I'm trying to use my Jedi battle meditation...maybe it will help...but it does not seem possible to sway the single-minded fury of the Massassi"

"Seeing other fighters retreat, [b]the Massassi invaders push forward."

That's on Kirrek.

And you people want to pick at [b]my quote regarding Palpatine not disintegrating the cooling unit. This is absurd.

Otherwise? The quote remains pretty solid. It's not from Vader's POV. The narrator is, and listen close: Describing how Vader feels. Vader doesn't feel Palpatine is the most powerful or otherwise it'd say, 'Vader thought him the most powerful.' It says Vader knows he can't face him alone and that Palpatine is the most powerful.

Both clear, canon statements from the narrator. End story

Originally posted by LS
And again: The Massassi don't even speak basic, so that's hard.

Apparently not. Your argument goes completely against textual and visual evidence. Drop it.

On Coruscant. Please...point out where else they attacked. Show me a single source other than Jori saying they attacked another world...since everything shows them attacking just those three. And says they attack just those three.

Firstly, since you said 'Everywhere in the CITY', so clearly I've proven you wrong. Secondly, no, I won't 'show' where else they attacked. Jori says it. That's that.

Sadow adds earlier: "Strike swiftly and decisively to consume Teta's worlds. Others will stab the heart of the Republic. We can dominate Coruscant in an eyeblink! Strategic skirmishes will crush resistance before other fleets can pull together."

Oh, do be quiet.

How about...no.

It says Vader knows this. Then says Palpatine is the most powerful.
Now, for those of us who aren't insanely biased against Palpatine, we can see that NOTHING from Vader's POV covers Palpatine's status. It's the narrator telling us how he feels and that won't cover anything about Palpatine's power which the narrator elaborates on.
Ergo, it's not that fallible after all

Now allow me to give you a literature lesson. Taken from Wikipedia:

'Henry met Madeline on New Year's Eve in 2002. He went to a party and she opened the door. Her hair! Only a goddess could have hair so fine.'

The final sentence is in the mind of the character, yet is not identified as a thought. The style has become psychologically close.

Now, you be quiet. Or say something intelligent.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Apparently not. Your argument goes completely against textual and visual evidence. Drop it.

Naga gives Gav command and the final decisions. Going to deny that?

Firstly, since you said 'Everywhere in the CITY', so clearly I've proven you wrong. Secondly, no, I won't 'show' where else they attacked. Jori says it. That's that.

Sadow adds earlier: "Strike swiftly and decisively to consume Teta's worlds. Others will stab the heart of the Republic. We can dominate Coruscant in an eyeblink! Strategic skirmishes will crush resistance before other fleets can pull together."

How about...no.

Now allow me to give you a literature lesson. Taken from Wikipedia:

'Henry met Madeline on New Year's Eve in 2002. He went to a party and she opened the door. Her hair! Only a goddess could have hair so fine.'

The final sentence is in the mind of the character, yet is not identified as a thought. The style has become psychologically close.

Now, you be quiet. Or say something intelligent.

You'd think a SOURCEBOOK with an omniscient narrator detailing events in different structure is totally different from a normal third person narrative!...which it is.

Again: Insane bias against the character? Meet facts.
What do the facts say? It describes how Vader feels and then says Palpatine is the most powerful. How, in this context, is Palpatine's status from Vader's POV? How, when the entire thing never gets inside Vader's head save to briefly tell us how he feels and then goes to state a fact subject to fallible POV?

Really funny how you hold to Jori Daragon as some sort of gospel and deny this totally.

Originally posted by Enyalus

It shows one brick missing (probably) and two more being pulled out. This is from the center of the tomb wall - I think that takes quite a bit of control, tearing out a few bricks and leaving the rest of the wall intact. If you don't, hurray for you?

Right, he rips out a brick, with the aid of his amulets(they were glowing during their duel) while being empowered by korribans dark side energies.

Wow, hes an amazing combatant.

Originally posted by LS
....this goes against anything I've said how? Strike at the heart of the Republic-Coruscant and Teta's Worlds- Empress Teta and Kirrek.

Yeah, except for the fact that there are more than just those two planets in the Empress Teta System. Like...Ronika, where Kirrek gets reinforcements from at the end of the issue (indicating something was holding them up...wonder what that was?).

What do the facts say? It describes how Vader feels and then says Palpatine is the most powerful. How, in this context, is Palpatine's status from Vader's POV? How, when the entire thing never gets inside Vader's head save to briefly tell us how he feels and then goes to state a fact subject to fallible POV?

'How, in this context'? I just posted how!

"The final sentence is in the mind of the character, yet is not identified as a thought."

Let's see how this meshes with the Sourcebook quote: Vader imagines (thus, inside of his head). Next sentence, the quote regarding Palpatine's power. Oh, they do check out. Read the shit I post before replying or don't bother replying. I'm tired of repeating the same things and you having absolutely nothing to come back with except admitting one part is Vader's POV and then calling me biased.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Right, he tips out a brick, with the aid of his amulets(they were glowing during their duel) while being empowered by korribans dark side energies.

Wow, hes an amazing combatant.

Do you need reading lessons too? I said I thought it was impressive control. If you can rip out three bricks from the side of a wall while being amped with a ton of rage (from the amulets) and fighting your sworn archrival, without tearing the entire tomb wall down - yes, to me, that's nice control.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Yeah, except for the fact that there are more than just those two planets in the Empress Teta System. Like...Ronika, where Kirrek gets reinforcements from at the end of the issue (indicating something was holding them up...wonder what that was?).

'How, in this context'? I just posted how!

"The final sentence is in the mind of the character, yet is not identified as a thought."

Do you need reading lessons too? I said I thought it was impressive control. If you can rip out three bricks from the side of a wall while being amped with a ton of rage (from the amulets) and fighting your sworn archrival, without tearing the entire tomb wall down - yes, to me, that's nice control.

Permit me to be thoroughly unimpressed with Pinky as a fighter. From what we've seen, Kopecz should butcher him. Hell, Quinlan Vos should have a good shot.

Originally posted by LS
And when does Naga say 'all' the worlds in the system?

Jesus H. Christ. Why do I need to spoonfeed everything to you, LS? Literally everything. What does Sadow say? "Teta's worlds." Does he say, "Teta's major worlds." Or "Most of Teta's worlds." Or "three of Teta's worlds." ? No.

You're trying to apply different standards here. It TELLS us Vader's feelings. It is NOT from Vader's POV, totally negating that. Because it says "Yoda knew he couldn't win" in the New Essential Chronology, for instance, does that mean it's stating a fact or getting inside his head?
That's how sourcebooks and out of universe statements work.

You must take me for an idiot. And I assure you, I am not. The Essential Chronology and New Essential Chronology are In-Universe accounts. The example you're using, then, means absolutely nothing here.

same as reading something from a history book which might tell us what someone was thinking but it's not from their POV.

...If you are saying what someone is thinking, you are interpreting something from their point of view. That is a fact. I can't make it any clearer for you.

Rip...ONE brick considering that's all he threw. Seems he just loosened the others.

And you know that the other two bricks did not hit him after that one and before he is shown on the ground, how?

Permit me to be thoroughly unimpressed with Pinky as a fighter. From what we've seen, Kopecz should butcher him. Hell, Quinlan Vos should have a good shot.

And permit me to not give your opinions the slightest bit of credibility, seeing the amount of stupidity you've already posted tonight.

I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. If you want more information on third person limited omniscient, you and any other readers in this thread should go to Sith Force Tournament and read from there onward.

I'll let everyone else make their own conclusions about the POV which that quote comes from. I'm not interested in yours any longer.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Jesus H. Christ. Why do I need to spoonfeed everything to you, LS? Literally everything. What does Sadow say? "Teta's worlds." Does he say, "Teta's major worlds." Or "Most of Teta's worlds." Or "three of Teta's worlds." ? No

You must take me for an idiot. And I assure you, I am not. The Essential Chronology and New Essential Chronology are In-Universe accounts. The example you're using, then, means absolutely nothing here.

...If you are saying what someone is thinking, you are interpreting something from their point of view. That is a fact. I can't make it any clearer for you.

And you know that the other two bricks did not hit him after that one and before he is shown on the ground, how?

And permit me to not give your opinions the slightest bit of credibility, seeing the amount of stupidity you've already posted tonight. [/B]

I am going to be issuing my final warning. Do not start baiting here. Especially you, Enyalus, who made a career out of bitching and whining about egotism and rudeness. I don't want a single pejorative or insult to flash across this screen under your username on this thread, ever again.

For the record, though, I thought you had a concise assessment. I can't speak to its flaws, though.

Originally posted by Gideon
I am going to be issuing my final warning. Do not start baiting here. Especially you, Enyalus, who made a career out of bitching and whining about egotism and rudeness. I don't want a single pejorative or insult to flash across this screen under your username on this thread, ever again.

Pardonnez-moi? Me, baiting? Did you even read Lightsnake's first response to my assessment? Let alone his rude trolling after the initial biased comments? Incase you missed it:

'A ringing endorsement from weaklings is hardly an endorsement.'

'Moreover, stop throwing out how it was 'probably' designed by Sadow unless there's proof. He's a master of mutating living beings and creatures. Show me a weapon he created and we can talk.'

'My great pardon for not really seeing how this is a ringing endorsement of Naga's combat abilities if someone who's pretty close to him in power goes flat on his ass when this happens.'

'It answered the call?' You say that like powering up a Sith Sword is mean to be ANY indication of power.'

'If we ever saw a Sith Sword kill a Jedi, you'd have a point to make about the combat abilities.'

'The power of the brick is strong indeed.'

'Yeah, let's look at this 'brilliance'...Again: The Ancients are a bunch of idiots'

'No, he's an arrogant moron.'

'Nearly anyone?' Only if that opponent happens to be asleep...Any elite we've seen would kick Naga's pink ass unless they happen to be allergic to bricks.'

You say you pride yourself on your fairness and you do not use double standards. You single me out though, after Lightsnake not only started it but also gets in the last jab?

Originally posted by Gideon
This will not be a versus match or flame fest but a place where we can objectively discuss and compare the known characters to place them in some sort of hierarchy.

Originally posted by Gideon
For the record, though, I thought you had a concise assessment. I can't speak to its flaws, though.

Thank you. I looked at several sources when putting it together, and often backed up the things I said with primary source quotes (Read: the comic itself). My underlying conclusion, stripping away everything else would be that Naga Sadow's raw power on its own, when compared to later Jedi and Sith, is laughable. But given his standard equipment and his high intelligence, he would be a match for almost any other combatant in the Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Pardonnez-moi? Me, baiting? Did you even read Lightsnake's first response to my assessment? Let alone his rude trolling after the initial biased comments? Incase you missed it:

'A ringing endorsement from weaklings is hardly an endorsement.'

'Moreover, stop throwing out how it was 'probably' designed by Sadow unless there's proof. He's a master of mutating living beings and creatures. Show me a weapon he created and we can talk.'

'My great pardon for not really seeing how this is a ringing endorsement of Naga's combat abilities if someone who's pretty close to him in power goes flat on his ass when this happens.'

'It answered the call?' You say that like powering up a Sith Sword is mean to be ANY indication of power.'

'If we ever saw a Sith Sword kill a Jedi, you'd have a point to make about the combat abilities.'

'The power of the brick is strong indeed.'

'Yeah, let's look at this 'brilliance'...Again: The Ancients are a bunch of [b]idiots'

'No, he's an arrogant moron.'

'Nearly anyone?' Only if that opponent happens to be asleep...Any elite we've seen would kick Naga's pink ass unless they happen to be allergic to bricks.'

You say you pride yourself on your fairness and you do not use double standards. You single [b]me out though, after Lightsnake not only started it but also gets in the last jab?

I said especially you, Enyalus, because you complain regularly about sophistry, egotism, and rudeness. Lightsnake does not. When he does, I'll chew his ass out as well. Nowhere, however, did I say that I was referring to just you.

Comments like 'I'd do so if Kevin J. Anderson put any intelligence into his writing.' and 'Naga Sadow is a second rate, arrogant moron with little demonstrated combat ability or anything to suggest that any of the elites wouldn't step on his pink ass and is stupid enough to be taken down by plenty others.' is what you had in mind for Project Holocron, Gideon?

Because he's right on some regards. Hurling a brick is pathetic in terms of control and power to most of the individuals we have seen in action. Sadow's brilliant and his alchemy is considerable, but don't for a second believe that based on feats that his natural power registers next to anyone special.

Thank you. I looked at several sources when putting it together, and often backed up the things I said with primary source quotes (Read: the comic itself). My underlying conclusion, stripping away everything else would be that Naga Sadow's raw power on its own, when compared to later Jedi and Sith, is laughable. But given his standard equipment and his high intelligence, he would be a match for almost any other combatant in the Star Wars mythos. [/B]

There you go.

Do the ancient sith have to be evaluated without their powered up items? Eg. Exar Kun without the amulets?

Originally posted by Gideon
Because he's right on some regards. Hurling a brick is pathetic in terms of control and power to most of the individuals we have seen in action.

And my analysis on that was that Sadow did not want to destroy the entire place and thus held back. I thought the control was something - targeting three bricks to tear out of the center of a wall while in the middle of a duel to the death with your archrival takes a bit of skill. The power part of it, certainly not. But like I said, my opinion on that was that he does not wish to destroy such ancient and sacred buildings. He's very politically minded. He's attempting to win support to become DLOTS. Destroying the Valley of the Dark Lords isn't going to help his case. After the sheer power we've seen from the amulets, do you really question whether he'd have been able to tear the entire wall out (especially since LS suggests the amulet was helping him with the feat)?

Originally posted by Jbill311
Do the ancient sith have to be evaluated without their powered up items?

Last call. I don't really know enough about them to care anymore.

PALPATINE IS TEH SUCK.
Does that get anyones attention?

Well people are evaluating them WITH their powered up items.

I just want to know if their power level without their items is relevant at all. I know so little that I don't even know if the question is relevant. Also, no one responded to me, and I asked several times. I just got a little frustrated.

Sure it is. It's a comprehensive analysis of characters. With and without their arcana.