Project Holocron

You know, Gideon, since I made you that signature & that avatar, your debating skills have significantly powered up. Coincidence? I don't think so. So I demand a nice, cordial 'thank you' from you.

(Please?).

Originally posted by Gideon
Sure it is. It's a comprehensive analysis of characters. With and without their arcana.

Just so everyone will be aware now, and not ask me questions later - I'm not detailing the Ancient Sith (Naga, Ludo, Ragnos, Exar, Ulic, Aleema [maybe?]) without their arcana. Most of the above are never seen seen without help from their items, so for me it would be complete speculation.

As some of you are aware, I do engage in speculation. But only when enough circumstantial evidence is there to draw an informed opinion from. We don't have that for Naga, Ludo, Ragnos, and Aleema. And Exar's biggest Force feat without his arcana is summoning an extra saber to his hand in his first fight with Vodo. So...

If we never see the ancient Sith without their amulets, the only one we can call naturally powerful is Marka Ragnos, because the narrator and Darth Traya say so. I doubt that the Exiles were obscenely powerful in relation to later Jedi anyway, so Naga Sadow being of a relatively "pure" Jedi bloodline would make him more powerful than the lowly Sith in Force-sensitivity, but we can't really gauge how he compares to other characters in the saga. Ragnos was a "half-breed," but he was apparently so powerful as to be an anomaly amongst the ancients.

If that made little sense, it's because I'm tired and can't find the threads I was trying to keep tabs on. Thanks a lot, Nai.

Originally posted by Faunus
If we never see the ancient Sith without their amulets, the only one we can call naturally powerful is Marka Ragnos, because the narrator and Darth Traya say so. I doubt that the Exiles were obscenely powerful in relation to later Jedi anyway, so Naga Sadow being of a relatively "pure" Jedi bloodline would make him more powerful than the lowly Sith in Force-sensitivity, but we can't really gauge how he compares to other characters in the saga. Ragnos was a "half-breed," but he was apparently so powerful as to be an anomaly amongst the ancients.

If that made little sense, it's because I'm tired and can't find the threads I was trying to keep tabs on. Thanks a lot, Nai.

Heh...Okay, well, I know you worded it nicely, but I'll go out on a limb and say that I think the Exiles were more powerful than the Ancient Sith. And by a lot. At least on par with the later powerful Force users. And here is my extremely, extremely weak logic:

Exiles were not Sith.
The Sith race was weak enough (and by relation, the Exiles were powerful enough) to think of them as gods.
Next we see the Sith Race as the Dark Siders themselves.
They are depicted as being much weaker, save for their amulets and magic.
They get exterminated - Sith race vanishes.
Next Dark Siders we see are not of the Sith race.
They are much more powerful featwise than the Sith-blooded ones were.

Conclusion? The Sith race was clearly not as well suited to the Dark Side powers as other races were (see Exar Kun, KOTOR era and onward, and the Exiles).

Also - the Exiles wielded powers and abilities and magics that had been long forgotten and considered "ancient" even by the Ancient Sith's time (so says Naga Sadow & Ludo Kressh, circa 5,000 BBY). And by Ancient Sith standards, they were powerful abilities (because they are called such, from their POV).

So yeah...that's weak. But, that's what I think. Exiles > Ancient Sith. And probably on par or above most of the post-Sith Empire Dark Siders.

The Sith race were just weak Force-sensitives, like many of the more modern Korunnai. Ragnos was, as I said, an anomaly; like Mace Windu, or Kar Vastor. The Exiles were far more well-attuned to the Force, and while I won't go after SW genetics, Ragnos being a half-breed and Sadow being of a more "pure" Jedi bloodline appear to be significant. Aside from Simus and Ludo, the vast majority of the race were probably pathetic as far as Force-power goes. But someone of Ragnos's "immense" power, with well over a century of being Dark Lord of the Sith and whatever time he had before that, wielding weapons that - in the hands of a young Exar Kun and the weakling Tavion - could do just about anything, should be a serious force to be reckoned with.

@Lightsnake: Your attempts to put down Ragnos based on the duel on Korriban are not good. He was possessing a weakling - the very act of him leaving her body killed her. Jaden Korr was the most promising Jedi Knight in the Academy, and was talented enough on his own to have built a lightsaber before even beginning formal training. Moreover, he's a five-thousand year-old ghost. The suggestion that just because he had the staff, he could fight on any level comparable to that of his own physical self is absurd.

I concur with the entirety of my master's most recent post.

Originally posted by Faunus
The Sith race were just weak Force-sensitives, like many of the more modern Korunnai. Ragnos was, as I said, an anomaly; like Mace Windu, or Kar Vastor. The Exiles were far more well-attuned to the Force, and while I won't go after SW genetics, Ragnos being a half-breed and Sadow being of a more "pure" Jedi bloodline appear to be significant. Aside from Simus and Ludo, the vast majority of the race were probably pathetic as far as Force-power goes. But someone of Ragnos's "immense" power, with well over a century of being Dark Lord of the Sith and whatever time he had before that, wielding weapons that - in the hands of a young Exar Kun and the weakling Tavion - could do just about anything, should be a serious force to be reckoned with.

@Lightsnake: Your attempts to put down Ragnos based on the duel on Korriban are not good. He was possessing a weakling - the very act of him leaving her body killed her. Jaden Korr was the most promising Jedi Knight in the Academy, and was talented enough on his own to have built a lightsaber before even beginning formal training. Moreover, he's a five-thousand year-old ghost. The suggestion that just because he had the staff, he could fight on any level comparable to that of his own physical self is absurd.

Talented as Jaden is, he is still facing down the spirit of a Sith Lord who may have just received his own boost via the feeding of the staff's energies to him. And he's on Korriban to boot. Is this highly reflective of a ready Ragnos? No. Maybe it's my remaining bitterness from the leftover Ragnos is the most powerful guy ever era but that he was really, really powerful isn't enough on its own to put him on the same tier as Palpatine, Exar, Bane or Revan.

The only thing we know about him is he beat Simus, who's also a complete unknown and was once seen as a talking head...which should have removed most, if not all of his potential and ability in the Force. If Vader's injuries crippled him, Simus's would done so far more

That is correct, Faunus. Both you and Enyalus are very keen to credit much of Palpatine's feats to his presence on Byss (the dark side properties of which were purely the product of Palpatine himself). Lightsnake is very much correct in pointing out that Jaden Korr faced down Taven, who -- while certainly not top tier as we define them -- is no weakling, essentially being third-in-command in the Empire Reborn movement and personal lieutenant of a man who technically overcame Luke Skywalker in a duel and challenged Kyle Katarn, in one of the tombs on Korriban. Despite the fact that he was in possession of her body and of his vaunted scepter, he was defeated by Korr in combat, on a planet steeped with dark side energies.

Explain to me, then, how that is not a sign of weakness. With respect, my friend, I see another example of double standards and I hope you can clarify, because it's not going to be tolerated.

Taven? How the hell did jaden faced that big nosed nebaris taven? I think you meant tavion.

I think I can answer for Faunus (and myself), Gideon. I was under the impression that Korriban was still basically a "dead" world Force-wise, as depicted in Path of Destruction. Bane notes that Korriban isn't nearly as powerful in the Dark Side as Lehon, because all the spirits had left.

I haven't played the game, so I need you to answer this question: Were the spirits and Dark Side power of Korriban back at the time of Tavion's possession and defeat?

Also, I only point out Palpatine's feats being due to Byss because the writer specifically mentions that as a reason for him doing what he's able to do there. I of course realize that any Dark Sider will receive a boost on any Dark Side rich planet.

I think kyle mentions in JA that korriban is still strong in the dark side(not too sure, can't check because i don't have the game).

Originally posted by Enyalus
[B]I think I can answer for Faunus (and myself), Gideon. I was under the impression that Korriban was still basically a "dead" world Force-wise, as depicted in Path of Destruction. Bane notes that Korriban isn't nearly as powerful in the Dark Side as Lehon, because all the spirits had left.

I haven't played the game, so I need you to answer this question: Were the spirits and Dark Side power of Korriban back at the time of Tavion's possession and defeat?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I've seen little evidence Tavion is honestly a weakling. She was handpicked by Desann, purified by Waru and had the years post Desann's death to study on Korriban at Marka's side.

Talented as Jaden is, he is still facing down the spirit of a Sith Lord who may have just received his own boost via the feeding of the staff's energies to him. And he's on Korriban to boot.

And Gideon's accusing me of double-standards?

I do, however, concede the point of Ragnos's spirit having been revitalized by the Force-energies stored in his staff. Well played.

Is this highly reflective of a ready Ragnos? No. Maybe it's my remaining bitterness from the leftover Ragnos is the most powerful guy ever era

but that he was really, really powerful isn't enough on its own to put him on the same tier as Palpatine, Exar, Bane or Revan.

The only thing we know about him is he beat Simus, who's also a complete unknown and was once seen as a talking head...which should have removed most, if not all of his potential and ability in the Force. If Vader's injuries crippled him, Simus's would done so far more

Originally posted by Gideon
That is correct, Faunus. Both you and Enyalus are very keen to credit much of Palpatine's feats to his presence on Byss (the dark side properties of which were purely the product of Palpatine himself).

Also note that I never once insinuated that Palpatine wouldn't be capable of performing either of those feats off of Byss. Breaking apart a millenia-old lightsaber shouldn't be too difficult, considering Darth Bane psychokinetically explodes multiple metal technobeasts.

overcame Luke Skywalker in a duel and challenged Kyle Katarn,

Despite the fact that he was in possession of her body and of his vaunted scepter, he was defeated by Korr in combat, on a planet steeped with dark side energies.

Ragnos also wasn't in his own body, and therefore wouldn't have had access to his own "immense" power. Nor did he have the Sith amulets that would likely have been included in his armament. Having the darkness of Korriban flowing through him isn't nearly enough to compensate for all of that.

Explain to me, then, how that is not a sign of weakness. With respect, my friend, I see another example of double standards

a.) Ragnos was empowered by Korriban; Sidious, despite the DSSb having specifically noted his presence on Byss in the same sentence in which he lauds his current state of power, gained nothing from Byss.

b.) Desann "overcomes" Luke, Anakin "defeats" Dooku on Tatooine, when both "victors" simply knock away their opponents and run. And yet, Dooku never defeated Mace on Boz Pity.

c.) Palpatine's dueling skills atrophied after a decade of supposedly not once touching a lightsaber, but Ragnos's five thousand years of existing as a mere ghost has no notable effect on his combat skills. (You neglect to take this into account in your "rebuttal," hence its inclusion)

and I hope you can clarify, because it's not going to be tolerated.

Originally posted by Gideon
Raise your game of get off the court.

Originally posted by Faunus
[B]Substantiate what being purified by Waru - which isn't something unique to her - actually means,

Wait. So despite the Sourcebook actually accentuating the fact that Palpatine was on Byss when he seemed "invulnerable" and used the Force as an "afterthought," but the spirit Ragnos gets a significant boost?

And Gideon's accusing me of double-standards?

I do, however, concede the point of Ragnos's spirit having been revitalized by the Force-energies stored in his staff. Well played.

I'm glad you said it, and not me, because I don't want to be the one howling accusations of bias. But it seems you're just slamming on the ancient Sith for no reason.

I've never compared him to any of those but Exar Kun, and even then it was to demonstrate just how powerful the young Sith Lord had become with only a year or so of study, using leftover knowledge from Sadow's notes. Unlike GV, I'm not definitively trying to place him anywhere, except in a vague "tier" of power. Do I think his overall ability with the Force is a cut above Kun's? Yes. That's as far as I'm willing to go. [Quote]
Don't forget-we know Kun had a Jedi Exiles Holocron as well if Jedi vs. Sith is to be believed.
I'll grant you the Kun one, though. I actually think that's not an unfair assertion
[Quote]
What's your point? I'm not saying that Simus is a god amongst Force-users, but he's certainly one of the best of the ancient Sith if he was a serious contender for the throne. And to survive as a head is something in itself.

Originally posted by Faunus
Don't put words in my mouth; you've done that enough as is. I accredited two of Palpatine's feats to his presence on Byss, which was steeped in dark side energies.

Byss was a nascent planet turned into a dark side nexus as a direct result of Palpatine's personal power, Faunus. To say that he was drawing upon its energies is to concede that he is using his own power to fuel his techniques.

Why wouldn't he be able to feed off of darkness that he created years prior, especially when it's indicated by the DSSb?

Where does the Dark Side Sourcebook specifically state that the Emperor was using Byss to empower himself?

And course, Byss was likely a far more potent source of dark side energy than Korriban was.

a.) You can't prove that.

b.) If you can, let me know, because that would only bolster Palpatine's high reputation as it is; transforming a nascent planet into a site of dark side energy more potent than Korriban singlehandedly? At a time when he was hardly ever there? Nice.

Also note that I never once insinuated that Palpatine wouldn't be capable of performing either of those feats off of Byss. Breaking apart a millenia-old lightsaber shouldn't be too difficult, considering Darth Bane psychokinetically explodes multiple metal technobeasts.

Oh, come now, though. I thought Darth Bane's powers were more potent than the Emperor's.

You've pulled this card far too many times. Knocking someone away and running does not mean the individual who ran "overcame" his or her opponent. I've never seen you claim that Dooku defeated Mace on Boz Pity, and yet you cling to the notion that said Sith Lord was "at the mercy" of Skywalker when they dueled on Tatooine. It's absurd, it's a double-standard, and it's getting tiresome.

Are you high?

Count Dooku, after swearing to "deal with the Jedi", confronts Windu and then decides to get the hell out. Not to mention, unlike Dooku on Tattooine, Windu was blindsided by Magnaguards. When Dooku confronted Anakin, he was overpowered and knocked on his ass; Skywalker only ran to save Ahsoka. Guess, by your logic, Windu didn't defeat Palpatine, even though you're always pointing that out, since he just knocked the Emperor on his ass, too.

And he wasn't anywhere near what would've been his ordinary power. You're always crowing that Palpatine slaughtered Kolar, Tinn, and Fisto despite the fact that he hadn't touched a lightsaber in ten years (which is likely, but unproven). As of his duel with Jaden, five thousand years had passed since he'd last touched his weapons. Atrophy of skill? I think so. And unless you want to stick to the double-standards you're accusing me of employing, you will concede as much.

Skill =/= power, Faunus. For the record, as well, Jaden Korr was an initiate at the time he confronted Ragnos. Why didn't the Dark Lord, empowered by Korriban, his vaunted scepter, and Tavion's own abilities manage to subdue him? Palpatine, for lack of technical skill, still managed to crush Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto due to a superior command of the Force.

Ragnos also wasn't in his own body, and therefore wouldn't have had access to his own "immense" power. Nor did he have the Sith amulets that would likely have been included in his armament. Having the darkness of Korriban flowing through him isn't nearly enough to compensate for all of that.

Can you prove all of that? Sith spirits on Korriban were capable of putting Palpatine in a Bacta tank when united and pissed. You're telling me that the greatest of all of the Ancient Sith, despite being equipped with his staff, the dark potency of Korriban, and Tavion's own potency couldn't overcome one initiate?

a.) Ragnos was empowered by Korriban; Sidious, despite the DSSb having specifically noted his presence on Byss in the same sentence in which he lauds his current state of power, gained nothing from Byss.

Byss was a product of Palpatine's own potency. Korriban? Not so much.

b.) Desann "overcomes" Luke, Anakin "defeats" Dooku on Tatooine, when both "victors" simply knock away their opponents and run. And yet, Dooku never defeated Mace on Boz Pity.

When Luke or Dooku were blindsided by Magnaguards, you let me know.

c.) Palpatine's dueling skills atrophied after a decade of supposedly not once touching a lightsaber, but Ragnos's five thousand years of existing as a mere ghost has no notable effect on his combat skills. (You neglect to take this into account in your "rebuttal," hence its inclusion)

When skill translates to power, you let me know.

I'm quivering.

Your remarks have no place here. I've been civil with dealing with you through your remarkable **** ups for the past week, not commenting on you turning tail and slinking away without comment. On here, you conduct yourself in a civil manner. If you want to play hardball, message me.

Edit: Or, um, are you joking? Because I can't tell.

In defence of the Ancient Sith

My oh my. Why can't people simply have a look at the source material and interprete it in an - at least nearly - objective way? Why not taking information into consideration that is offered by secondary sources? Why not simply think for two minutes before handing out some sort of judgement about the power of characters.

Let's throw a brick !

One must love the attempts to limit Naga Sadow to that force feat and, even more than that, talk him down based on that feat. Let us not forget, that the Sith Lord used the brick throwing manouver while engaging another Sith Lord in combat. How many people have you seen employing force manouvers like that during melee combat? The only person that I could name doing something like that - just off my mind - is Count Dooku.

No, people. The fact alone that Sadow is capable of performing an action like that while in combat leads to the suggestion, that he has to be a rather powerful force user to do something like that - while encountering another force user in melee combat. And please: It's not only throwing the brick. He rips it from the wall first. It, apparently, took a little concentration on Dooku's side to damage the ceiling of the Hangar in AotC, dropping some pieces of it on Yoda. And he was not engaging another combatant in melee during that time. Yet, Lightsnake, you still want to tell us, that somebody who can perform that while duelling another force user with a two-handed stone/crystal/metal-sword is somehow not powerful? Especially when the same guy tears down a stone statue in a burst of rage, similar to what Vader does in the end of RotS?

Let's use some Sith magic there

Another nice way to talk down the Ancient Sith. "Hey. They aren't powerful force users. They just have their Sith Magic". What, in the blue hell, do people around here think what "Sith Magic" is? Essentially, every Dark Side technique popping up in the Saga is derived from the Magic Arts the Sith people practiced before the Jedi Exiles landed on Korriban. They refined and perfected those techniques in the same way the did with Sith Alchemy.

And now: Take a look at Sith Magic in action. Aleema Keto with the limited knowledge being stored in one book, is suddenly capable of taking on entire armies using her tangible illusions as well as she can simply instantly toast people, demonstrated when she burns the skin and flesh of one of her servants off in an instant. King Ommin floored an entire group of Jedi with one Sith magic attack. Kun with a single Sith spell either freezes or mind-controls the entirety of the Galactic Senate. And Naga Sadow did generated tangible illusions on three different locations that were about to conquer three planets at once.

So the next time, you read the term "Sith Magic" it would probably be more accurate to think "Gandalf" or "Elminster" instead of "Harry Potter".

Gimme my Gimmicks

Talking about Sith amulets: Why are you people always attempting to talk them down based on "but they were wearing their amulets while doing this or that"? So what? Vader was always wearing a Sith amulet, since his right armor glove was built around one. Shall we now question every single force manouver of the Sith Lord because "he can just do that because of his amulet"?

And excuse me: That stuff didn't spawn out of nowhere. It's the outcome of Sith Alchemy which, in turn, was perfected by the Dark Jedi Exiles that later became the Dark Lords of the Sith. They did construct those weapons. Be it there amulets or stuff like Ragnos sceptre. And we know that this stuff, even in the hands of some beings not familiar with it, can be deadly - even for a Jedi. And since the Ancient Sith Lords did always carry their amulets around, it would be utter nonsense to exclude those items when attempting to judge the power of one of those individuals. It simply doesn't make sense. That's like judging Dooku's ability in lightsaber combat - and while doing so strip him off his lightsaber.

Pathetic death = pathetic force user

Pretty much an argument that Lightsnake is always using when the Ancient Sith are involved. Yeah. I know. Some of them die in rather stupid situations. Yet most of them just die because of getting surprised in some way. If 90 % of your field troops simply vanish behind you, you would find that rather distracting. If some Jedi Master in a freaking tank filled with cyanide drops himself [with said tank] right in front of your feat, poisoning you, I'd call that a surprise attack. If your own servants decide to turn against you and assault you - bad luck on your part. Or are we going to apply this reasoning to Sidious too, who also didn't look too great, getting thrown into the reactor shaft of the second Death Star by his own apprentice? Was Maul just some retard able to use the force because of the way he died in TPM? Should we assume that any Jedi who died in an ambush of Revan's Jedi Hunter squads was a weakling? Or Revan himself, because Malak pwned him with a turbolaser? Shall we assume that every Jedi who died when Order 66 was executed is somehow an incapable force user?

No? Then don't even hand such arguments in.

As a conclusion most of the Ancient Sith are simply unknowns with powerlevels that might range from "regular Dark Jedi" (e.g. the lesser Sith Lords getting pwned in the FotSE comics) up to the level of DE Sidious (Ragnos?). We simply don't know.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[b]In defence of the Ancient Sith

My oh my. Why can't people simply have a look at the source material and interprete it in an - at least nearly - objective way? Why not taking information into consideration that is offered by secondary sources? Why not simply think for two minutes before handing out some sort of judgement about the power of characters.

Let's throw a brick !

One must love the attempts to limit Naga Sadow to that force feat and, even more than that, talk him down based on that feat. Let us not forget, that the Sith Lord used the brick throwing manouver while engaging another Sith Lord in combat. How many people have you seen employing force manouvers like that during melee combat? The only person that I could name doing something like that - just off my mind - is Count Dooku.

No, people. The fact alone that Sadow is capable of performing an action like that while in combat leads to the suggestion, that he has to be a rather powerful force user to do something like that - while encountering another force user in melee combat. And please: It's not only throwing the brick. He rips it from the wall first. It, apparently, took a little concentration on Dooku's side to damage the ceiling of the Hangar in AotC, dropping some pieces of it on Yoda. And he was not engaging another combatant in melee during that time. Yet, Lightsnake, you still want to tell us, that somebody who can perform that while duelling another force user with a two-handed stone/crystal/metal-sword is somehow not powerful? Especially when the same guy tears down a stone statue in a burst of rage, similar to what Vader does in the end of RotS?

And when your opponent is Ludo "I can't dodge or stop a brick" Kressh, who apparently sees Naga reach out, feels him reach out with the Force, we presume, and remains in the same place long enough to take a hit to the skull?

The idea that this is godly powerful just because Naga happened to be engaged in combat at the time is flawed. Not only did he have all his trinkets to bolster his power, he was on Korriban and thus receiving an amp to his natural power. And even moreso that he had to put ground between himself and Ludo first.

Let's use some Sith magic there

Another nice way to talk down the Ancient Sith. "Hey. They aren't powerful force users. They just have their Sith Magic". What, in the blue hell, do people around here think what "Sith Magic" is? Essentially, every Dark Side technique popping up in the Saga is derived from the Magic Arts the Sith people practiced before the Jedi Exiles landed on Korriban. They refined and perfected those techniques in the same way the did with Sith Alchemy.

And now: Take a look at Sith Magic in action. Aleema Keto with the limited knowledge being stored in one book, is suddenly capable of taking on entire armies using her tangible illusions as well as she can simply instantly toast people, demonstrated when she burns the skin and flesh of one of her servants off in an instant.

King Ommin floored an entire group of Jedi with one Sith magic attack.

Kun with a single Sith spell either freezes or mind-controls the entirety of the Galactic Senate. And Naga Sadow did generated tangible illusions on three different locations that were about to conquer three planets at once.

So the next time, you read the term "Sith Magic" it would probably be more accurate to think "Gandalf" or "Elminster" instead of "Harry Potter".

Gimme my Gimmicks

Talking about Sith amulets: Why are you people always attempting to talk them down based on "but they were wearing their amulets while doing this or that"? So what? Vader was always wearing a Sith amulet, since his right armor glove was built around one. Shall we now question every single force manouver of the Sith Lord because "he can just do that because of his amulet"?

And excuse me: That stuff didn't spawn out of nowhere. It's the outcome of Sith Alchemy which, in turn, was perfected by the Dark Jedi Exiles that later became the Dark Lords of the Sith. They did construct those weapons. Be it there amulets or stuff like Ragnos sceptre.

And we know that this stuff, even in the hands of some beings not familiar with it, can be deadly - even for a Jedi. And since the Ancient Sith Lords did always carry their amulets around, it would be utter nonsense to exclude those items when attempting to judge the power of one of those individuals.

It simply doesn't make sense. That's like judging Dooku's ability in lightsaber combat - and while doing so strip him off his lightsaber.

Pathetic death = pathetic force user

Pretty much an argument that Lightsnake is always using when the Ancient Sith are involved. Yeah. I know. Some of them die in rather stupid situations. Yet most of them just die because of getting surprised in some way. If 90 % of your field troops simply vanish behind you, you would find that rather distracting.

If some Jedi Master in a freaking tank filled with cyanide drops himself [with said tank] right in front of your feat, poisoning you, I'd call that a surprise attack.

If your own servants decide to turn against you and assault you - bad luck on your part.

Or are we going to apply this reasoning to Sidious too, who also didn't look too great, getting thrown into the reactor shaft of the second Death Star by his own apprentice?

Was Maul just some retard able to use the force because of the way he died in TPM?

Should we assume that any Jedi who died in an ambush of Revan's Jedi Hunter squads was a weakling?

Or Revan himself, because Malak pwned him with a turbolaser?

Shall we assume that every Jedi who died when Order 66 was executed is somehow an incapable force user?

Oh, and bringing up, once more, Darth Andeddu. Who had his ass kicked by Darth Wyyrlok. What's his excuse?

No? Then don't even hand such arguments in.

As a conclusion most of the Ancient Sith are simply unknowns with powerlevels that might range from "regular Dark Jedi" (e.g. the lesser Sith Lords getting pwned in the FotSE comics) up to the level of DE Sidious (Ragnos?). We simply don't know. [/B]

Even Ragnos is unknown and to put him at DE Palpatine or even Bane level seems suspect. Above Kun? I agree, but he's got practically not backing to be the best of the best.

As stated with Faunus, Nai, control and power are not the same thing. Luke Skywalker doesn't demonstrate great refinement when he manipulates a dovin baasal, but great potency. The Ancient Sith, as a collective whole, are nothing special. That is the point. But their upper tier, especially Ragnos, are among the best.

I'm glad you specified 'dovin basal,' Gideon, because most people I see using that example say he 'manipulated a black hole' - which the basal is not. That it affects gravity is well and good, but a gravity well =/ black hole.

Is anyone else going to post an assessment of Sadow? Are we moving on to the next guy already?