Originally posted by Gideon
Is this some sort of irrelevant misdirection? The dark side energies that saturated Byss were generated from Palpatine himself. Even if he is being fueled by the energies there, it is irrelevant since the powers came from him.
You're intentionally being daft. I asked you to provide the statement from the Dark Side Sourcebook that specifically denoted Palpatine was being empowered there.Dark Empire Sourcebook, my mistake. I didn't know there was more than one.
And you know the quote I'm talking about.
Unlike the late Marka Ragnos, Tavion, and Count Dooku, Palpatine was responsible for the dark side energies surrounding him.See above.
You could prove hypocrisy by proving that the situations between Ragnos, Tavion, Dooku, and the Emperor were all the same. They weren't.They... were. All three were likely "enhanced" by the dark aura of their respective planets - the narration of Dark Rendezvous states it, the Dark Empire Sourcebook implies it, and it's a presumption that Ragnos/Tavion did as well.
Yes, so you've said. But, really, why else would you try to argue that Palpatine's Force lightning wasn't superior to that of his direct inferior, Darth Bane, someone whose experience with Force lightning doesn't really register next to that of the Emperor's.Because Palpatine's Force-lightning has never been shown to be as potent as that of Bane. Think, or be quiet. I'm sick of your moronic accusations, and for someone who claims to be giving me as much respect as I've given you, this is a pathetic showing.
I don't have to, you see. I'm in the great position of being supported by canon statements where it is stated without ambiguity that the Emperor is more powerful than Darth Bane.Anakin was "canonically" more powerful than Starkiller. It's stated in far more than a single source. And yet the secret apprentice's telekinetic prowess completely eclipses that of Skywalker, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Bane has demonstrated far greater feats of telekinesis than the Emperor has, despite featuring in a significantly smaller number of sources, and from that I should be able to infer that his telekinesis is greater. I haven't actually gone there yet, to be clear, but it stands. Show me something that suggests otherwise, or stop being a moron.
Right, because Force pushing your opponent aside and knocking a wall down on him in the context of a duel is not a legitimate win. Skywalker was down for the count, Desann was able to move on. Don't be petty, Faunus. No one is arguing that Desann was stronger, but he did win.Fair enough. That said, either provide the entire scenario and don't bring it up at all. Desann "technically [overcoming]" Luke implies something other than "brought a wall down on him and ran away." Stop shading the truth; you do it enough as is.
You will be so kind as to list the distractions for Desann's duel with Skywalker and Anakin's duel with Dooku. Yes, I have noticed that you're conveniently not arguing that anymore. Is silence synonymous with concession?You brought up the example of Mace's defeat being invalid by my logic - which, for anyone who can read - was clearly not the case. Anakin pushed Dooku down - with him landing several feet away and sitting on his ass - and fled, when the Count appeared to have had the upper hand throughout the duel prior to that moment. Mace knocked Palpatine down and had his weapon at his throat; he could have killed him there.
Of course, Palpatine would shortly go on to kill Mace with his vastly superior Force-powers, which he could've done without Anakin's interference, but in that one moment he had truly lost. Luke, meanwhile, was never at Desann's mercy, nor was Dooku at Anakin's.
He was using the power of someone else's bodyA weaker body. Get that through your head.
on a planet entrenched in dark side energies and empowered by his scepter.Specify how his scepter was "empowering" him. Tavion had fueled him with enough energy to make him capable of possessing her. The original intention was to bring him back to life, and if the scepter had stored enough Force-power to do so, that's exactly what she would've done.
Curious how Tavion is a "weakling" whereas Jaden Korr is "incredibly talented."Jaden defeated Tavion on her own before Ragnos possessed her. He was significantly better than her. A mere "initiate" being that superior to her? I mean, what has she even done, other than be chosen to be Desann's apprentice - which doesn't help Malak or Bandon much, apparently - and get killed by an "initiate"?
My, you do like to shade things, don't you?You're one to talk, regardless of how ridiculously out of place this comment is.
He was considered one of the most promising Jedi, Faunus, not the most promising.Ah. My mistake.
Moreover, if Korr had been promoted to his great ability based on prodigious talent, one would assume that Tavion herself would have demonstrated remarkable ability, since she was third-in-command of a galactic movement to restore the Empire.Right. Because the Reborn = the Jedi.
I didn't deny Korr's skill, merely pointed out that he has hardly had the skill and acquired experience of a Master.Being a Jedi Master in any era doesn't equate to surpassing skill or power. Coleman Trebor, anyone? Versus any of the Skywalkers, Starkiller, Kyp Durron, the Qel-Dromas, Exar Kun, and even Kyle Katarn.
But welcome to the purpose of this thread, Faunus. You expose what you see to be "flaws" or weaknesses in the Emperor, am I not entitled to do the same with Ragnos?What does this have to do with anything? I haven't made any of the accusations you have yet.
Fact of the matter is, despite, what, a thousand years of difference, Exar Kun -- on a planet steeped with Jedi -- managed to provide more awe inspiring demonstrations of power as a spirit than Marka Ragnos.Fact of the matter is, Exar Kun died by absorbing the life-force of an entire race in a ritual that, combined with the Jedi "wall of light," set the planet on fire. Ragnos... died.
He's not infallible. He's not even close.I'm not arguing such. You're going farther than I am, by saying that he "arguably" rivals the Emperor. Based on current sources, I'm not even willing to definitively argue that he's anything but a superior Force-user to Exar Kun.
I'm disappointed. You specify in the original post, and multiple times afterward, that this thread is based on "professionalism" and "civility." And then you go ahead and accuse me of bias and "bitchiness"? No. You're a hypocrite, and your double-standards are going to stop. Conduct yourself the way you're telling everyone else to, or back off.
Originally posted by Faunus
Palpatine's dark energies corrupted Byss. They were not the final "darkness" that tainted the planet. He wasn't focusing his powers on keeping Byss dark; he was feeding off of the darkness that he'd created. At best, his powers were being amplified by his own leftover energies, but nothing like what you're implying.
How do you know they were not? I'm going to reiterate this one final time: the only dark side energies present at Byss -- the very same ones that corrupted the planet to begin with -- were generated by the Emperor. He is not siphoning or being empowered by potency of others or situations; he is basking in the environment that he deliberately created without aid. Palpatine and Byss are both identified within Dark Empire as each a "dark side nexus."
Dark Empire Sourcebook, my mistake. I didn't know there was more than one.And you know the quote I'm talking about.
Enyalus told me the same thing; that I knew the quote that you two were both referring to. See my argument with him for further detail.
See above.
I did.
They... were. All three were likely "enhanced" by the dark aura of their respective planets - the narration of Dark Rendezvous states it, the Dark Empire Sourcebook implies it, and it's a presumption that Ragnos/Tavion did as well.
Except, sadly, unlike the late Count Dooku, Marka Ragnos, or Tavion, Palpatine was being saturated in his own energies.
Because Palpatine's Force-lightning has never been shown to be as potent as that of Bane. Think, or be quiet. I'm sick of your moronic accusations, and for someone who claims to be giving me as much respect as I've given you, this is a pathetic showing.
What ridiculous logic. Yoda and Luke Skywalker have never demonstrated telekinesis on par with Starkiller. Mace Windu hasn't demonstrated the ability to repulse Force lightning as General Kota has. I suppose Kota and Starkiller are more powerful than the other characters mentioned. Ironic, since you went on an endless rant on Luke Skywalker's level of power. I suppose, though, since he hasn't shown it... he simply can't compare.
See, you can accuse me of hypocrisy, but I can actually prove yours. By the way, please show me where I've suggested here that you're a moron or spouting moronic things. Face it, Faunus, I'm still maintaining more control than you are.
Anakin was "canonically" more powerful than Starkiller. It's stated in far more than a single source. And yet the secret apprentice's telekinetic prowess completely eclipses that of Skywalker, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Where was Anakin Skywalker "canonically" stated to be more powerful than Starkiller?
Bane has demonstrated far greater feats of telekinesis than the Emperor has, despite featuring in a significantly smaller number of sources, and from that I should be able to infer that his telekinesis is greater. I haven't actually gone there yet, to be clear, but it stands. Show me something that suggests otherwise, or stop being a moron.
Yes, you're a beacon of civility. We've already addressed the issue of your double standards.
Fair enough. That said, either provide the entire scenario and don't bring it up at all. Desann "technically [overcoming]" Luke implies something other than "brought a wall down on him and ran away." Stop shading the truth; you do it enough as is.
What is this? Mimicking my statements awards you no points, Faunus. Desann did, by the way, bring down the wall on Skywalker before moving on. I'm not the one who conceded this point, by the way. 😉
You brought up the example of Mace's defeat being invalid by my logic - which, for anyone who can read - was clearly not the case.
Now that is an example of moronic reasoning, Faunus.
No, you brought up Dooku's "win" against Windu and neglected to mention the fact that the Count recalled two Magnaguards to blindside Mace as a "distraction" so that the Jedi could win. That is not anything approaching a win; he did not defeat Windu through superior skill, combat expertise, or Force prowess. He summoned allies. Hardly what Anakin did with Dooku or what Desann did with Luke.
Anakin pushed Dooku down - with him landing several feet away and sitting on his ass - and fled, when the Count appeared to have had the upper hand throughout the duel prior to that moment.
Wrong. Dooku demonstrated superiority with the Force throughout that duel, but did not demonstrate anything approaching dominance with his blade. Anakin disarmed Dooku and knocked him down on the floor, several feet away. Dooku was unarmed and sitting like a scolded child and was only spared because Anakin rushed off to rescie Ahsoka.
"Stop shading the truth" will become a mantra for me to you around here.
Mace knocked Palpatine down and had his weapon at his throat; he could have killed him there.
Double standard detected! You will now show the explicit difference between this scenario and the one with Anakin and Dooku.
Luke, meanwhile, was never at Desann's mercy, nor was Dooku at Anakin's.
Skywalker was buried under rubble; Dooku was unarmed and on his ass. They weren't at their opponents' mercy? Prove it.
A weaker body. Get that through your head.
No one even implied as much. But it is rather telling that you're suggesting Ragnos has to be in full form to overcome Jaden Korr on Korriban.
Specify how his scepter was "empowering" him. Tavion had fueled him with enough energy to make him capable of possessing her. The original intention was to bring him back to life, and if the scepter had stored enough Force-power to do so, that's exactly what she would've done.
Prove it. She had a fully armed and fully determined Jedi Knight facing her down. Nothing suggests she could have summoned the ritual immediately to resurrect his body.
Jaden defeated Tavion on her own before Ragnos possessed her. He was significantly better than her. A mere "initiate" being that superior to her? I mean, what has she even done, other than be chosen to be Desann's apprentice - which doesn't help Malak or Bandon much, apparently - and get killed by an "initiate"?
Bandon and Malak aren't unskilled or anything approaching weak, nor has it ever been accepted among us. And prove that Tavion's defeat at Jaden's hands was "significant."
You're one to talk, regardless of how ridiculously out of place this comment is.
"You're one to talk" = "Yeah, I know... but I'm gonna try to credit you with the same thing!" = not valid.
Right. Because the Reborn = the Jedi.
Right. Because the Jedi have proven themselves to be more militant and value power over the Galactic Empire and a Sith loyalist group. Coleman Trebor was more powerful than Skywalker, wasn't he? Luke Skywalker didn't become Grand Master until the Dark Nest Crisis. Guess then and only then does he rival Yoda.
Being a Jedi Master in any era doesn't equate to surpassing skill or power. Coleman Trebor, anyone? Versus any of the Skywalkers, Starkiller, Kyp Durron, the Qel-Dromas, Exar Kun, and even Kyle Katarn.
I didn't mention power, I said skill and experience.
What does this have to do with anything? I haven't made any of the accusations you have yet.
Selective memory, I guess.
Fact of the matter is, Exar Kun died by absorbing the life-force of an entire race in a ritual that, combined with the Jedi "wall of light," set the planet on fire. Ragnos... died.
And you can prove that it would enhance his powers in the afterlife four thousand years later?
I'm not arguing such. You're going farther than I am, by saying that he "arguably" rivals the Emperor. Based on current sources, I'm not even willing to definitively argue that he's anything but a superior Force-user to Exar Kun.
Good. But, we can infer that Marka Ragnos was a beast.
I'm disappointed. You specify in the original post, and multiple times afterward, that this thread is based on "professionalism" and "civility." And then you go ahead and accuse me of bias and "bitchiness"? No. You're a hypocrite, and your double-standards are going to stop. Conduct yourself the way you're telling everyone else to, or back off.
I've just demonstrated your use of double standards, Faunus. Prove mine. We'll go one more round, and then if you haven't proven my double standards, you'll just have to stick to the argument strictly.
Originally posted by Faunus
Sorry for the double-post.Gideon, I don't want to get bogged down in hostilities with you. Again. For no reason. This can be a civil discussion in line with what you claim to have wanted when you started this thread, or it can continue as is.
That's the difference, Faunus. I've mentioned it to you days ago: you've been on a downward streak of starting arguments you have, in no way, the means of proving. For example, your horrid use of Windu's "loss" to Dooku being anything approaching the circumstances of Dooku's defeat at Skywalker's hands. It's ridiculous and you know it. I cover my ass better than anyone else I know, nowhere did I address you as a "moron" or even a hypocrite (until now, the latter). Initially, I said I simply noted "double standards" throughout your argument and even went to the point of addressing you as "my friend" to show that I am not remotely angered or tempered by any of this. You, however, did not demonstrate near the restraint and, with respect, that isn't up for debate.
I'd strongly suggest sticking to the facts only in your next rebuttal. You've been more than testy with me in our last couple of debates.
But just in case it wasn't clear, I'm not mad or annoyed or anything at all. We all have our "blah" moments, hours, days, weeks. Some of us even have "blah" years. This one just happens to be yours and I'm not going to hold it against you. It all depends on how you deal with it.
Gideon, not all of Byss' dark side taint came from the Emperor's power in the Dark Side. He stored many of his Sith holocrons and artifacts there, kept his Dark Side Adepts stationed there, and had numerous Sith alchemy and sorcery experiments going on the planet.
Are you willing to say that none of those things affected Byss' energies?
PS: I've got deep gashes on my index and middle fingertips today, so won't be typing a whole lot for a few days...
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Enyalus: Thing is, it's said to just be Palpatine's energies that corrupted Byss...no mention of Holocrons or the Adepts are made in the article.
I could be a serious prick and use arguments I've heard recently. Something like, 'so now absence of proof is proof of absence? That the source doesn't mention the holocrons or Adepts doesn't mean it directly contradicts anything. Prove that Byss wasn't effected by other Dark Siders, Dark Side objects and Dark Side magics.'
You wouldn't get anywhere. Because then, I'd be an even bigger prick and point out that nothing explicitly states that the Holocrons and dark side artifacts impacted Byss at all, and unlike myself and Nai in the previous argument, you don't even have the benefit of visual aid. The absence of proof clause can be used to try to keep from refuting a point, but it isn't a valid source for your premise, i.e. suggesting a point.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, when have minor Dark Siders or Holocrons served to corrupt a planet? Telos remained uncorrupted, despite Atris and all those Holocrons.
Minor Dark Siders? Dark Side Adept. Executor Sedriss was said to perhaps be the most powerful disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader. Plus the holocrons. Plus the Sith artifacts. Plus the alchemy and sorcery being done there.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Dark Side Elite weren't often on Byss post training, though.
Is that specified somewhere?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Again, though...when do artifacts and Holocrons corrupt planets?
Are you intentionally twisting things or just misunderstood me? I said that Palpatine wasn't the only reason for Byss' taint. I didn't say the artifacts and holocrons were responsible for the corruption. Nice job leaving out the 'Sith alchemy and sorcery' part, though. 😛
But, having numerous Sith artifacts on Odryn caused atmospheric and climate alterations to the entire planet (summer snows, monsoons, volcanic ash), as well as rotting the buildings that were there.
And those artifacts? All shielded so that their Force power would go completely unfelt. You think Palpatine took similar precautions?
Sedriss and the others were Imperial fleet commanders and were leading the lines on Operation Shadow Hand.
The thing about alchemy and sorcery, though, is it comes from an individual.
Of course, we also have to see what kind of artifacts they were-I'll grant the ones Feln had stockpiled and concede a large concentration will have an effect...but still, Holocrons?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sedriss and the others were Imperial fleet commanders and were leading the lines on Operation Shadow Hand.The thing about alchemy and sorcery, though, is it comes from an individual.
Of course, we also have to see what kind of artifacts they were-I'll grant the ones Feln had stockpiled and concede a large concentration will have an effect...but still, Holocrons?
A lot of the alchemy done on Byss was done by the Emperor's dark side adept. Also - wasn't Operation Shadow Hand only in effect after DE1? Or, certainly wouldn't have been before Byss was being corrupted.