Project Holocron

Started by Enyalus51 pages

Originally posted by Gideon
They are. And the Emperor corrupted the planet before he moved his dark side artifacts there.

"Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy."

*nods* I'm not saying that Palpatine wasn't the one who corrupted Byss. I'm saying that not all of the Dark Side energies on Byss at the time of Dark Empire were solely due to him, and thus the boost he received would not be all simply from his own powers and energies feeding back to him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
*nods* I'm not saying that Palpatine wasn't the one who corrupted Byss. I'm saying that not all of the Dark Side energies on Byss at the time of Dark Empire were solely due to him, and thus the boost he received would not be all simply from his own powers and energies feeding back to him.

You'd have to prove that they'd have any effect against a world already transformed into "one of the most powerful dark side sites" in the galaxy.

just because he corrupted it means that he can't get a power boost from it?

thats what it sounds like u are saying

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
just because he corrupted it means that he can't get a power boost from it?

thats what it sounds like u are saying

No, lol.

If he got a power boost from being on Byss, it would be a boost from his own power. Unlike Marka Ragnos, Tavion, Darth Revan, et cetera.

Originally posted by Gideon
You'd have to prove that they'd have any effect against a world already transformed into "one of the most powerful dark side sites" in the galaxy.

Will popular consensus work? If so, we could take a vote. 😛

This Palpatine's influence on Byss is the same as Shaak Ti in Felucia. Since he spent so much time there he gradually converted the planet. Impressive indeed, but not unique I say.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Will popular consensus work? If so, we could take a vote. 😛

This is not a democracy, my young apprentice. It is all part of my Master's great plan.

Originally posted by Dark Angel
This Palpatine's influence on Byss is the same as Shaak Ti in Felucia. Since he spent so much time there he gradually converted the planet. Impressive indeed, but not unique I say.

Except this is completely false for a plethora of reasons. First, Shaak Ti's influence on Felucia was phenomenal, but the planet was wild and untamed prior to her arrival; it was already potent in the Force. Byss, on the other hand, was a nascent planet, void of all light and dark side influences, and the Emperor's dark side energies transformed it into one of the "strongest dark side sites" in the galaxy. Third, Palpatine, according to numerous sources (the Ultimate Visual Guide being one of them) spent the vast majority of his reign as Emperor secluded in the Imperial Palace on Coruscant, "rarely ever leaving."

So, essentially, Palpatine turned a neutral planet into one of the strongest dark side sites and enslaved its twenty billion inhabitants by sheer force of will and Force aptitude, at a time when he reigned from Coruscant, lightyears away.

The obvious conclusion is that the feat with Byss is much more impressive.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is not a democracy, my young apprentice. It is all part of my Master's great plan.

Pfft. Publius was elected by popular vote.

Originally posted by Gideon
Except this is completely false for a plethora of reasons. First, Shaak Ti's influence on Felucia was phenomenal, but the planet was wild and untamed prior to her arrival; it was already potent in the Force. Byss, on the other hand, was a nascent planet, void of all light and dark side influences, and the Emperor's dark side energies transformed it into one of the "strongest dark side sites" in the galaxy.

The obvious conclusion is that the feat with Byss is much more impressive.

...I...don't know if I agree. I would say they're almost equally impressive. Felucia was strong in the Force, but as a dark side planet. Shaak Ti's presence was the only thing which was holding it back. And she was still able to have total command over the planet's wildlife.

Byss, being a neutral site, means it would be much easier to convert to one side, as opposed to Felucia, which Shaak Ti would have had to convert from one polarity to its opposite.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pfft. Publius was elected by popular vote.

Hush, child.

...I...don't know if I agree.

I'm shocked.

I would say they're almost equally impressive.

They aren't.

Felucia was strong in the Force, but as a dark side planet. Shaak Ti's presence was the only thing which was holding it back. And she was still able to have total command over the planet's wildlife.

Yes, thank you. She is the beacon of light holding back the darkness of the planet. She did not control it or remove it, nor could she. She was akin to a dam holding back a flood.

Byss, being a neutral site, means it would be much easier to convert to one side, as opposed to Felucia,

Not really, since Palpatine had to manipulate it on a planetary scale and provide the planet itself. Byss, prior to the Empire's occupation, had no specific alignment. Palpatine had to provide the Force energies present and enslave the twenty billion inhabitants from lightyears away on Coruscant.

which Shaak Ti would have had to convert from one polarity to its opposite.

Except she didn't convert the planet, she merely held back its darkness. For the record, she had twenty years of being physically present on the planet to assist. Don't get me wrong, it's damn impressive and it is unique; we don't see people manipulating the environment of a planet often. But Palpatine's feat was infinitely more impressive.

Could we make a new thread for the above discussion? We are still suppose to be discussing Marka Ragnos and the ancients yet I haven't seen any sort of assessment on them (save for manslayer's) for a couple of pages now.

Go ahead with the Ragnos discussion, Elite. You'll forgive me, but putting Enyalus in his place has become something of a habit for me.

Originally posted by Gideon
How do you know they were not? I'm going to reiterate this one final time: the only dark side energies present at Byss -- the very same ones that corrupted the planet to begin with -- were generated by the Emperor. He is not siphoning or being empowered by potency of others or situations; he is basking in the environment that he deliberately created without aid. Palpatine and Byss are both identified within Dark Empire as each a "dark side nexus."

Errrr....
Wasn't it mentioned that Sidious did partitially drain the inhabitants of Byss? See...the problem I have here is the idea behind turning Byss into a Dark Side place. What reason would the Emperor have to do something like that. And even more important: By what means would he have archieved that goal?

See...Iziz happens to be another place tainted with the Dark Side, which is just the case, because it was reigned by a line of Dark Side Adepts and the people did actually - at least to a certain extend - believe in the Dark Side teachings that Nadd and his descendants were preaching.

And then, seriously: Why would the Dark Empire Sourcebook even mention that he is - to a certain extend - more powerful on Byss than elsewhere, if the energies there weren't affecting his ability. In fact: Why would a Dark Side place [even though generated by himself in the first place] not affect his powers? Hell...why would he even turn the planet into a "dark side nexus" if he doesn't benefit from that at all?


Except, sadly, unlike the late Count Dooku, Marka Ragnos, or Tavion, Palpatine was being saturated in his own energies.

Energies that apparently were stored on the planet. That is the entire point here. Imagine Byss like a giant Sith amulet: Sidious did construct it and while he was using it, it made him more powerful. That he constructed it in the first place doesn't matter at all.


What ridiculous logic. Yoda and Luke Skywalker have never demonstrated telekinesis on par with Starkiller. Mace Windu hasn't demonstrated the ability to repulse Force lightning as General Kota has. I suppose Kota and Starkiller are more powerful than the other characters mentioned. Ironic, since you went on an endless rant on Luke Skywalker's level of power. I suppose, though, since he hasn't shown it... he simply can't compare.

Did I miss the instance where Starkiller lifted something of the size of the remains of the crystal caves on Ilum (which Yoda did) or did force pull something that mimicks the gravitation of a black hole (like Luke did)?


Wrong. Dooku demonstrated superiority with the Force throughout that duel, but did not demonstrate anything approaching dominance with his blade. Anakin disarmed Dooku and knocked him down on the floor, several feet away. Dooku was unarmed and sitting like a scolded child and was only spared because Anakin rushed off to rescie Ahsoka.

ROFL.
I wonder that you lecture people on "shading the truth", Gideon. Dooku did put Anakin on his ass twice rather easily. He then took out that nice holo-device to show Anakin what Ahsoka was facing and Anakin did put him on his ass, yes...after the Count was wielding his lightsaber with his left-hand only [because he had the holo-device in his right hand] but he didn't disarm him. Dooku was still holding his lightsaber in his left hand. And he also had no intent to continue this fight - instead he gave another taunt and let Anakin go. He could have continued the duel, if he would have liked to do so.


Double standard detected! You will now show the explicit difference between this scenario and the one with Anakin and Dooku.

Easy: Dooku has knocked Anakin on his ass twice, then duels him with his offhand, and - unlike Sidious - he isn't disarmed and very well able to own his opponent with his force powers - which he demonstrated two times in the very same duel.


Skywalker was buried under rubble; Dooku was unarmed and on his ass. They weren't at their opponents' mercy? Prove it.

Dooku wasn't disarmed. His lightsaber was just deactivated and he was still holding it in his left hand and he could still have force raped Skywalker [as he did it two times before]. And Luke? Apparently it would never have even come to this situation, if Luke had gone all out on Desann. The same with Dooku and Anakin on Tatooine.


No one even implied as much. But it is rather telling that you're suggesting Ragnos has to be in full form to overcome Jaden Korr on Korriban.

In full form? Hardly!
In better shape then taking over an already beaten Tavion? Let me rephrase that: He was attempting to fight Korr, using the body of an already defeated person to wield around his sword [that was designed for a far stronger being than Tavion], this while just having access to Tavion's limited [in comparison to his own] force potential.

Imagine Sidious attempting to fight anybody, while still possessing Jeng Droga.


Prove it. She had a fully armed and fully determined Jedi Knight facing her down. Nothing suggests she could have summoned the ritual immediately to resurrect his body.

I guess Faunus point was that she already used most of the energy stored within the sceptre to call Ragnos spirit back from the Netherworld of the force. Hence he doesn't see how said sceptre should have empowered her. Neither do I.


Bandon and Malak aren't unskilled or anything approaching weak, nor has it ever been accepted among us. And prove that Tavion's defeat at Jaden's hands was "significant."

The significant thing here is that Jaden did defeat Tavion, meaning that Ragnos was possessing somebody who was - de facto, and even with all possible power-ups available [sceptre, Korriban] - weaker then Jaden Korr. So, essentially, we have Ragnos powerless [in comparison to him alive] spirit + the power of the person that Jaden Korr did already defeat [meaning that Tavion nwas in a condition in which she couldn't continue the fight any longer] put up against Jaden Korr.


Right. Because the Jedi have proven themselves to be more militant and value power over the Galactic Empire and a Sith loyalist group. Coleman Trebor was more powerful than Skywalker, wasn't he? Luke Skywalker didn't become Grand Master until the Dark Nest Crisis. Guess then and only then does he rival Yoda.

I wonder, how you didn't understand the obvious Sarcarm that Faunus was handing out. What has a possible promotion of Jaden Korr to do with Tavions position in the Reborn Empire? Oh right. Nothing at all.


I didn't mention power, I said skill and experience.

Which is great. Unfortunatelly, overall power is the factor that determines versus fights. And skill? Yeah. The boy just dealt with an army of Dark Jedi. How much skill can he have? Experience. Okay. But then again: How does that matter?


And you can prove that it would enhance his powers in the afterlife four thousand years later?

Urm. Kun's power? Well...I didn't see too much Sith spirits who were capable of force toasting quite promising Jedi students [Kun VS Gantoris] or amplify the abilties of others [Kyp lifting the Sun Crusher with the help of Kun]. So either it was the ritual or the temples on Yavin that equipped Kun's spirit with abilities beyond that of "regular" Sith spirits - which doesn't matter since Ragnos didn't have either.


Good. But, we can infer that Marka Ragnos was a beast.

The guy in his "powerless" spirit shape was capable of placing burnmarks on the foreheads of Qel-Droma and Kun by mere placing his hands there. Meaning his amount of power when he was alive could probably be accurately judged with "WTF?!"

Except this is completely false for a plethora of reasons. First, Shaak Ti's influence on Felucia was phenomenal, but the planet was wild and untamed prior to her arrival; it was already potent in the Force. Byss, on the other hand, was a nascent planet, void of all light and dark side influences, and the Emperor's dark side energies transformed it into one of the "strongest dark side sites" in the galaxy.

For your first argument I have to say your point is not valid. You have just said that Byss was void of the force influence, which is not true. Byss was a neutral planet force wise, but he was not void of force influence. How is that possible anyway? Also, I think

Third, Palpatine, according to numerous sources (the Ultimate Visual Guide being one of them) spent the vast majority of his reign as Emperor secluded in the Imperial Palace on Coruscant, "rarely ever leaving."
So, essentially, Palpatine turned a neutral planet into one of the strongest dark side sites and enslaved its twenty billion inhabitants by sheer force of will and Force aptitude, at a time when he reigned from Coruscant, lightyears away.

The obvious conclusion is that the feat with Byss is much more impressive.

For your SECOND argument, well, I thought Kyle Katarn stated to Jaden korr in jedi academy that Byss dark side energies were due to the fact that palpatine spent much time on it, not because he was corrupting the planet from coruscant.

By the way, this kind of influence is not unique in the Satr Wars mythos. Why do you think korriban was a planet so strong in the dark side? Also the cave of Dagobah where Luke fought an image of vader was due to the influence of a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi killed there. Yavon 4 dark side energies were also due the influence of naga sadow and exar kun. In JA Tavion also searches several places strong in the dark side and more then one were due to the influence of dark side users. And we could go on with this. So while something impressive, palpatine's feat isn't that unique.

Jaden went to Byss? I really got to find my copy of Jedi Academy.

Nai, I'll be with you in a minute. I want to wrap up the lesser arguments first.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
For your first argument I have to say your point is not valid. You have just said that Byss was void of the force influence, which is not true. Byss was a neutral planet force wise, but he was not void of force influence. How is that possible anyway? Also, I think

"A pleasant resort world used by Emperor Palpatine as a personal retreat, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core."

Forgive me. I didn't mean to state that it was devoid of the Force entirely, but it didn't seem to have a specific alignment.

For your SECOND argument, well, I thought Kyle Katarn stated to Jaden korr in jedi academy that Byss dark side energies were due to the fact that palpatine spent much time on it, not because he was corrupting the planet from coruscant.

He did spend a lot of time on Byss -- once he was reincarnated. Prior to that, the vast majority of his time was spent secluded within his Palace on Coruscant.

By the way, this kind of influence is not unique in the Satr Wars mythos. Why do you think korriban was a planet so strong in the dark side? Also the cave of Dagobah where Luke fought an image of vader was due to the influence of a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi killed there. Yavon 4 dark side energies were also due the influence of naga sadow and exar kun. In JA Tavion also searches several places strong in the dark side and more then one were due to the influence of dark side users. And we could go on with this. So while something impressive, palpatine's feat isn't that unique.

This is ridiculous. Palpatine singlehandedly corrupted an entire planet and enslaved its twenty billion inhabitants through strict Force powers. When he was hardly ever there. None of the examples you posted are remotely relevant or comparable.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
For your first argument I have to say your point is not valid. You have just said that Byss was void of the force influence, which is not true. Byss was a neutral planet force wise, but he was not void of force influence. How is that possible anyway?

Byss did not lean either to the light or dark. Simple fact. It wasn't dead to the force, but no one said it was.

Originally posted by Darth Angel

By the way, this kind of influence is not unique in the Satr Wars mythos. Why do you think korriban was a planet so strong in the dark side? Also the cave of Dagobah where Luke fought an image of vader was due to the influence of a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi killed there. Yavon 4 dark side energies were also due the influence of naga sadow and exar kun. In JA Tavion also searches several places strong in the dark side and more then one were due to the influence of dark side users. And we could go on with this. So while something impressive, palpatine's feat isn't that unique.

What is unique is that a single dark side user converted an ENTIRE planet. Not a cave, not a lake, a PLANET. Also, on Korriban there were generations of dark siders that studied and added to the darkness. Palpatine converted a neutral planet in less than one generation.

Hurry up and concede, Darth Angel. I've got bigger fish to fry, metaphorically speaking.

Calm down Gideon, I come here times to times but I have other things to instead of being here all the time. Anyway:

"A pleasant resort world used by Emperor Palpatine as a personal retreat, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core."

Forgive me. I didn't mean to state that it was devoid of the Force entirely, but it didn't seem to have a specific alignment.

Fair enough. However, if we are in one of "conceding", you are the one who conceded here.

He did spend a lot of time on Byss -- once he was reincarnated. Prior to that, the vast majority of his time was spent secluded within his Palace on Coruscant.

I am using one of Kyle's sentences. Besides, I remember that in the comic in which we see palpatine talking about Byss dark side energies to Vader we was actually on Byss. Also, I would like to know why Coruscant didn't turn in such a dark side world as Byss. I mean, he turns Byss in such dark side nexus lightyears away and yet Coruscant doesn't suffer similar fate? hmm... Also Palpatine selected Byss as his personal retreat and his secret throne world, didn't he? He also let there his clones. I think he should spent there at least some of his time.

This is ridiculous. Palpatine singlehandedly corrupted an entire planet and enslaved its twenty billion inhabitants through strict Force powers. When he was hardly ever there. None of the examples you posted are remotely relevant or comparable.

No one said it wasn't impressive, but it was unique at all.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Calm down Gideon, I come here times to times but I have other things to instead of being here all the time.

Great. Please come up with an entire point or don't bother.

Fair enough. However, if we are in one of "conceding", you are the one who conceded here.

Devoid of a Force alignment. But as you wish, it doesn't really effect my argument either way.

I am using one of Kyle's sentences.

I know. I've just put it into context: Palpatine spent a lot of time on Byss after he is reincarnated there.

Besides, I remember that in the comic in which we see palpatine talking about Byss dark side energies to Vader we was actually on Byss.

Name the source and show me how this disproves the idea that the Emperor spent "most" of his time on Coruscant.

Also, I would like to know why Coruscant didn't turn in such a dark side world as Byss. I mean, he turns Byss in such dark side nexus lightyears away and yet Coruscant doesn't suffer similar fate? hmm...

It would behoove you to actually read the source material. Byss was an experiment; Palpatine intended to replace the current Galactic Empire with a galactic theocracy based on the dark side of the Force; he would transform every planet into a dark side nexus. He likely didn't opt for Coruscant because that was his primary throneworld and, in the event that he failed the experiment, he might critically ruin it. Consider that one of the Dark Lords of the Sith of ancient times failed an experiment and actually destroyed all life on it.

Also Palpatine selected Byss as his personal retreat and his secret throne world, didn't he? He also let there his clones. I think he should spent there at least some of his time.

No one said he never went there. But it remains canon fact: Palpatine spent most of his twenty-year-rain secluded on Coruscant, where he "rarely" vacated the Palace.

No one said it wasn't impressive, but it was unique at all.

It is both. Read.

Great. Please come up with an entire point or don't bother.

And what is your point here may I know?

Devoid of a Force alignment. But as you wish, it doesn't really effect my argument either way.

Fair enough

I know. I've just put it into context: Palpatine spent a lot of time on Byss after he is reincarnated there

Can you prove that you are puting it in kyle's context?

Name the source and show me how this disproves the idea that the Emperor spent "most" of his time on Coruscant.

Evasive Action: Recruitment if I am not wrong. Well, it disproves the idea that the emperor barely left Coruscant. In fact I ask myself how would he deepning his force study if he spent more then 20 years locked in coruscant...

It would behoove you to actually read the source material. Byss was an experiment; Palpatine intended to replace the current Galactic Empire with a galactic theocracy based on the dark side of the Force; he would transform every planet into a dark side nexus. He likely didn't opt for Coruscant because that was his primary throneworld and, in the event that he failed the experiment, he might critically ruin it. Consider that one of the Dark Lords of the Sith of ancient times failed an experiment and actually destroyed all life on it.

I didn't know that fact (I can't just read all EU information obviously), and actually I ask you for source material (I would like to to check that info myself). Anyway, you are saying that the emperor wanted to turn the planet in a dark side nexus. Well, in that case you are saying that it wasn't palpatine mere presence alone that turned byss in a dark side nexus, but is intention, so you are saying that palpatine used his powers to turn that place in a dark side nexus. Well, I can disput that such feat can be reproduce. If freedom nadd can corrupt a moon with just the influence of his tomb, then a strong sith lord who "wants" to create a dark side nexus can most probably due it as well.

No one said he never went there. But it remains canon fact: Palpatine spent most of his twenty-year-rain secluded on Coruscant, where he "rarely" vacated the Palace.

Point adressed already.

It is both. Read.

I have already read and didn't find info that convinced me.