Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The ONLY character that could really be thrown into that discussion is DE Sidious, for his overall force mastery/superiority/variety, etc.
i'd be all for someone posting those comics online as some people posted Luke's novels. I've never read DE, and was unable to find it at a book store about a month ago when i looked.
I agree with truejedi. By LotF, Luke is firmly superior to anyone and everyone in terms of Force ability. No one even compares, from what we've seen. He completely owned Raynar Thul, a man within whom was focused the power of the entire Killik hive, and whose power output was severe enough to burn his gloves:
"At the other end, with his black helmet lying in a melted gob before him and the fingers of his vac suit gloves burned off by all the Force energy he had been throwing around, stood Luke's melt-faced opponent. Raynar Thul."
Luke also pins Raynar to a wall in a manner reminiscent of what he did to Jacen (went over Solo's case earlier):
"Luke deactivated his lightsaber and picked Raynar up by the collar and slammed him against the wall. He used the Force to pin him there... [Raynar tries to summon his lightsaber]... [Luke] intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body. Then he opened the hilt of the captured lightsaber and removed the focusing crystal."
Actually, I'll just post the fight later for those of you not yet convinced of Luke's ridiculous level of dominance.
In sabers, things are closer, but there's still no one who can defeat him in a fair fight, at peak condition.
Contrary to what's being said, Desann didn't beat Luke. He put some distance between Skywalker and himself, and promptly fled. It's what Qui-Gon did to Maul on Tatooine, what Dooku did to Yoda on Geonosis, what Anakin did to Dooku in The Clone Wars, and what Dooku again did to Mace Windu in Obsession. Unless you would consider those as victories on the part of the individual who ran away...
Luke also noted in The Swarm War that he can fight one-handed with his weak hand as well as anyone else in the Order:
"In lightsaber combat, Luke favored two-handed styles, but he could still fight single-handed - even with his weak hand - just as well as anyone in the academy."
The Jacen thing I've been over. Go back to the last post a few pages ago to read.
Now, Lumiya may have beaten Luke - in a scenario that was blown completely out of proportion by certain members - but when he actually wanted to kill her, he did it with pitiful ease, and with a single lightsaber.
Luke Skywalker vs. UnuThul from The Swarm War:
"It's not too late to surrender." Luke started forward at a walk. "I'm not eager to do this."
Raynar's burn-scarred lips twitched in a faint hint of a smile. "We are."
Raynar raised his lightsaber and jumped onto the carnage heap.
Luke ignited his own blade and raced forward, using the Force to keep himself from stumbling over debris. A loud crunching erupted behind him as his surviving droids raced after him, then half a dozen of Raynar's bodyguards leapt up from the other end of the pile and started forward, firing shatter guns with their lower set of arms and carrying flame tridents with their upper pair.
A flurry of cannon bolts zipped past Luke from behind and took out three insects. Raynar pointed at the attacking droids. A muffled thump erupted inside one of them, and it went down in a sizzling, popping crash of laminanium. Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst, then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.
That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.
As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.
But Raynar was a Jedi, and all Jedi were quick. He caught himself in the Force, levitating himself just long enough to bring his golden blade sweeping in at Luke's shoulder.
Luke had no choice but to block with his blade, and no place to block but the forearm. Raynar's lightsaber went spinning off, still securely in the grasp of his three-fingered hand, and caught one of Luke's bugcrunchers squarely in the back. The weapon sliced through six centimeters of laminanium armor before the severed forearm flew free. The blade deactivated, and the hilt disappeared into the tangle of death and destruction at the droid's feet.
The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.
But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.
Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.
The Master sighed and shook his head. "What am I going to do with you, Raynar Thul?" he asked. "You learn nothing from your mistakes."
Luke Skywalker vs. Lomi Plo, which takes place moments later:
The fight finally went out of Raynar. "You're sure?" He folded his cauterized forearm stump across his stomach and cradled it with his other arm, his lips quivering in pain and tears welling in his eyes. "You know-"
The question was drowned out by the roar of a blaster cannon, and Luke glanced down the corridor to see the bugcruncher stationed there suddenly powering down. The droid fell out of the opening backward and crashed to the deck, then Lomi Plo scuttled through the hatchway on her mismatched set of legs-one human, the other insectile. She turned her bulbous eyes and noseless face down the corridor, then extended her crooked upper arms toward the lightsaber in Luke's hands.
The last remaining bugcruncher opened fire, forcing Lomi Plo to ignite the lightsaber in her lower set of hands. Her blocks and parries came so slowly that she was barely able to deflect the cannon bolts and she was forced to swing her upper arms toward the droid and drain its power. Raynar, thankfully, continued to stand dazed-and seemingly impotent.
Determined to reach Lomi Plo before she drained his lightsaber's power cell, Luke sprang down the corridor and leapt off the carnage heap to attack. Lomi blocked his first pass with her white lightsaber. Then, in place of the purple lightsaber she had left in Jacen at the end of their last meeting, she ignited a familiar-looking green blade-the lightsaber Raynar had confiscated on Woteba. Luke's light-saber.
"Now you're just ticking me off," Luke said.
Lomi clacked her mandibles and hissed, then launched a deadly low-high-low combination with her flashing blades. Luke parried, ducked, and jumped, then brought an elbow up under her mandibles and sent her staggering back, all four arms flailing as she struggled to catch her balance on her mismatched legs.
Luke whipped his blade around, cocking it for a death slash across her middle-then had a prickle of danger sense between his shoulder blades and tried to spin away. He almost made it.
Something heavy and huge slammed into his shoulder-a shatter gun pellet?-and sent him tumbling across the floor past Lomi Plo's feet. He tried a reactionary slash as he rolled by, only to discover that was he was no longer holding his lightsaber, and he could not move his prosthetic hand-nor the rest of his arm.
Lomi Plo's two blades began to chop the floor behind him, so he used the Force to accelerate himself and continued to roll, then came to his feet two meters on the other side of her and called his lightsaber back to his good hand.
The weapon arrived just ahead of Lomi Plo, and suddenly Luke found himself on the defensive, being driven into a corner while Raynar Thul-not so impotent after all-used his other hand to fire more shatter gun pellets.
In lightsaber combat, Luke favored two-handed styles, but he could still fight single-handed-even with his weak hand-just as well as anyone in the academy. What he could not do, however, was fight wounded and weak-handed against twin blades while a second party fired a steady stream of hard-to-deflect shatter gun pellets at him. In short, Luke was desperate.
So he dropped to his side and caught Lomi Plo's human leg in a scissoring motion between his feet. The knee bent backward and popped with a sickening crunch.
She fell, squealing in pain and clacking her mandibles-and redoubled her attacks, slashing so ferociously with her twin blades that Luke's lone hand barely had the strength to block.
Of course, Control picked that moment for an important announcement from the Megador. "Be advised that three Killik swarms are diverting to attack Healing Star."
Lomi Plo's attacks slackened for a moment, and Luke realized that she was gently probing him through the Force, searching for any hint of fear or doubt. He put the Healing Star-the fleet's main hospital ship-out of his mind and remained focused on the fight. Lomi Plo had almost certainly used the Dark Nest to divert those swarms, to try to create an opening that would give her power over his mind.
Still dodging shatter gun pellets, rolling back and forth on the floor and parrying madly, Luke glanced up the corridor and used the Force to reach into the carnage heap beneath Raynar's feet. He grabbed the largest, heaviest thing he could find-a disabled bugcruncher droid-and jerked it free.
The pile shifted and Raynar crashed down on his back, but Luke barely noticed. He was pulling the droid down the corridor straight at Lomi Plo.
She deflected it easily, of course-but she had to spin away from Luke and wave a hand, and that gave him the chance he needed to Force-spring up the corridor toward Raynar, who was just returning to his feet.
"As I was saying," Luke said, pointing his lightsaber down at Raynar's chest. "You never learn."
Raynar's eyes flashed with alarm and he rolled away-presenting the side of his head for a perfect knockout blow. Luke brought his lightsaber down, but deactivated the blade and flipped it around at the last second to strike at the base of the ear.
The blow landed with a sharp crack that suggested a breaking skull, but Luke had no time to worry about Raynar. Lomi Plo was dragging herself out the hatchway, trying to escape into the general confusion of the Ackbar's recapture. He sprang after her, using the Force to drag her back into the corridor.
Lomi Plo whirled around, her lightsabers rising into a guard position but not attacking. Trapped on the floor with a broken knee, she knew as well as Luke did that she could not defend herself; that he could kill her any time he wished.
So Luke was half expecting it when Control's voice sounded in his earpiece again. "Be advised, Killik swarms are opening fire on Healing Star."
Lomi Plo's mandibles opened wide, and a long, gurgling hiss erupted from her throat. Luke did not need to speak Killik to understand what she was saying-or even to probe her meaning through the Force. She could call off the attack on the hospital ship.
All Luke had to do was let her go.
Luke snorted. "That's the trouble with you ruthless types-you're all so predictable."
Lomi Plo grabbed hold of the sides of the hatchway with two of her hands, then pulled herself up on her insect leg and cocked her head so that only one of her bulbous eyes was turned toward Luke.
"Mara and Jacen are in a hospital back on Coruscant," Luke explained. "There's nobody aboard Healing Star but a few mouse droids. Admiral Bwua'tu said you were going to attack it. And by the way, I have no doubts about Mara. She says hello, in fact."
Lomi Plo's reaction came so suddenly that Luke doubted even she was expecting it. She just came flying at him with both blades flashing, striking high and low from opposite sides in a desperate attempt to finish him off.
Luke, of course, had anticipated this, too. Lomi Plo had no power over him. He simply stepped inside her attack and flicked his wrist twice, first sweeping his blade upward, then whipping it around in a backslash, and she landed at his feet in four parts.
How much can we discuss about Palps? The guy has perhaps the most destructive force power we've ever seen, managed to corrupt a planet he barely visited just by being there, and has been flat out stated to be the strongest.
He really is the epitome of what a sith is in Star Wars, he has both vast knowledge of the dark side as well as the cunning and intelligence beyond what most can aspire to.
Originally posted by Pwned61
How much can we discuss about Palps? The guy has perhaps the most destructive force power we've ever seen, managed to corrupt a planet he barely visited just by being there, and has been flat out stated to be the strongest.He really is the epitome of what a sith is in Star Wars, he has both vast knowledge of the dark side as well as the cunning and intelligence beyond what most can aspire to.
Well, you just said it all. No need to take up 10 more pages for Palpatine.
Okay. I'm bored, so I think I'm going to post a power analysis of Sidious, or w/e. If anyone disagrees, tell me. I'll divide my power analysis into several sections.
Raw Power: In this category, I believe that Sidious- although not Skywalker-level- still excels. His natural affinity towards the dark side is, perhaps, unparalled; this is supported by how the Dark Side rose in power steeply in 200 years before Sidious' actual birth, leading us to conclude that the dark side of the force, that appears to operate as an almost conscious being. I believe this implies that he is a sort of a parallel to Anakin's 'chosen one'.
It is true that the Sith also have a prophecy about a 'Sith Chosen One'- the Sith'ari- and while the categories for being a the Sith'ari hardly mesh with Palpatine's qualities (Bane is the most likely candidate for being the Sith'ari), I think Palpatine was somehow selected by the dark side of the force to be the avatar of darkness. This is supported by Dooku's viewing of him as a 'black hole in the force', and him being called the complete avatar of darkness during the events of Dark Empire. The power of the Dark Side also had a unique effect on him; the levels of energy he wielded ravaged and destroyed his body, an effect otherwise unseen. It would appear that the force... err... 'foresaw' his birth and rose in preparation for him.
I think that to simply call Palpatine's raw power on an ordinary scale is a bit off. He's not a regular force user- he's an avatar of darkness, the epitome of being a Sith. Kind of like an opposite Luke, only that Luke's raw power is well beyond Sidious'.
Force Mastery: I don't feel that there is a necessity to go particularly in-depth in this category, because there are few things that I can say that haven't been already said. I think this is where Sidious ranks the highest. His mastery and knowledge of the force is the best in SW history; having access to tons of holocrons and virtually all the knowledge held by the Ancient Sith should enable him to learn seemingly lost force techniques. The DE sourcebook labelled him as a master of every force technique ever known, although the "It is believed" seems to imply that it is hyperbole. Is a he master of every single technique? I doubt it, but his knowledge and mastery of the force seems to enable him not only to harness some of the most destructive and potent displays of force power, but also to occasionally command the Ancient Sith to his will, such as in Sithisis and Dark Empire.
Among his most potent displays of force ability are his presumed mind-wiping of billions of people in order to make them forget the existence of the Lusankya, the ritual in Sithisis (clouding the minds of even such powerful Jedi as Yoda, and bringing destructive lightning storms to the entirety of Coruscan't surface), and, of course, the Force Storm.
Lightsaber Ability: Although this is arguably the weakest of Sidious' points, he is still an immensely effective lightsaber combatant. Why? Because of his incredible prowess with the force. During the point of pre-TPM, he was able to generate speeds that caused Darth Maul, one of the most conditioned warriors of all time, to view him as a mere blur. By RotS, his force power increased, logically enabling him to attain even greater levels of speed than before; his speed was able to outclass Mace's regular speed. The same Mace that single-handedly destroyed an army of super battle droids using his bare hands, and is displayed to be moving as a blur while doing that- it was said to be 'blinding' in several official sources, like the Star Wars databank, and outclassed three of the order's greatest swordsmen to the extent that they could not be a reasonable challenge; he decimated them in seconds. Kit Fisto was decimated despite Sidious simultaneously fighting against Mace Windu. Impressive? Hell yeah.
Later on, Sidious battled Yoda and put him on the defensive. While Yoda was making the advanced acrobatics and therefore logically forcing Sidious' blows to be more over-extended and exauhsting, Sidious still held the advantage in terms of bladework, displayed to be placing Yoda, one of the fastest force users in history, on the defensive. By Dark Empire, not only did his mastery of the force increase considerably, he is now in a healthy, highly physically fit body- he decimated Luke when they fought on equal ground without Luke being empowered by the force and his sister, and was said to be completely invisible for the duration of the entire fight.
In terms of technical skill, he's hardly a slouch, either. He is said to be a 'Master of every weapon and every form', giving him at least the ordinary technical skill of a blademaster. He's not invincible in sabers- far from- but he's easily a top tier saber combatant. He evidently lacks stamina and proper training, causing him to prefer quick saber fights over long ones, as shown by him escaping the duel between him and Yoda when he didn't have the clear advantage. This is a significant weakness.
Overall Conclusion: Sidious possesses a mastery and knowledge of the force- and especially the dark side- beyond anything we have ever seen. That being said, though, he's not invincible. While his simple, acquired power may be the greatest among Sith, certain... err... artifacts give some Sith a chance to defeat him. Bane's Orbalisks and Kun's amulets, for example. By RotS, both Mace Windu and Yoda can defeat him, although Sidious can defeat them, too. By Dark Empire? Peak Luke can defeat him, but not without exerting himself in his entirety.
I rest my case.
Excuse the delay, gentlemen, I was at a friend's house. I'd like to address one final issue on the Skywalker case and give my final assessments.
Originally posted by Faunus
Now, Lumiya may have beaten Luke
Lumiya dominated Skywalker not through a superior command of the Force but by being, quite simply, a better fighter. She's smarter and more cunning and manipulated the environment to compensate for the disparity between them in Force strength.
- in a scenario that was blown completely out of proportion by certain members -
It's not like you to skirt around an issue, Faunus. I was the one who kept bringing the duel up, you may mention my name. I assure you that I won't cry.
Furthermore, what was blown out of proportion? The fact that Skywalker's combination of power and skills doesn't necessarily make him the best fighter? That he can be critically injured by those who are cleverer and more cunning than he is? That he's not infallible?
but when he actually wanted to kill her, he did it with pitiful ease, and with a single lightsaber.
There are two very major problems with that.
First, Lumiya confessed to Jacen Solo prior to the duel that she intended to die at Skywalker's hands and was "looking forward" to her death. Solo later mused that she comitted "suicide-by-Skywalker." It's not like she went there to fight her hardest and own the shit out of him and simply failed.
Second, I'd recommend not throwing out the accusation of "blowing things out of proportion" when you oh-so-conveniently neglected to mention that he did not outclass her, that the book mentions that she blocked all of his strikes, and that he simply pushed her to the edge of the cliff, where they were "locked in a stalemate" until her foot finally gave out and she lost her grip on her lightwhip.
"Pitiful ease", all right. May he count his lucky stars that she wasn't fighting to win and that her footing gave out. 🙄
Originally posted by Faunus
Indeed, although I highly doubt Gideon will want to leave it at that.
Yeah... I don't know who pissed in your Cheerios, but do us all a favor and lay off.
My final assessment regarding the strength of Luke Skywalker is thus:
The notion that Skywalker is completely without peer is patently ridiculous. His career has detailed moments of defeat, where he was outclassed or outmatched by his opponent. Even at his current incarnation, in the Legacy of the Force series, he was defeated by his former lover, the Dark Jedi and former Emperor's Hand, Lumiya and critically injured by his nephew, Jacen Solo. The defeat at Lumiya's hands was particularly telling. It is painfully obvious that his command and raw strength of the Force far exceeds her own, but it is equally true that Lumiya demonstrated a greater combat awareness and greater sense of cunning than Skywalker; simply put, she's a cleverer fighter, designed to capitalize on any and all weaknesses. Lumiya used the Force and her intellect to cleverly manipulate the environment to compensate for the great disparity between herself and her former lover. That intellect can be a match for raw power was featured twice to my knowledge regarding duels between former Emperor's Hands Mara Jade and Lumiya versus Jacen Solo and Luke Skywalker respectively; in both scenarios, the women dominated their opponents by simply being smarter and, in a sense, better fighters even though, as I said, they are no match for them in terms of raw potency or mastery of the Force.
Skywalker's subsequent defeat of Lumiya is also not an indicator that he could have owned her (even though, judging how she was wounded by a random Jedi Master [Lobi?] even with Alema Rar's assistance does make it clear that Luke Skywalker is above her), since she made it explicitly clear that she intended to die, and as Darth Maul mentions in Shadow Hunter, "once defeat is conceded within the mind, it becomes reality." Jacen Solo himself later muses that Lumiya "committed suicide-by-Skywalker." Nothing indicates that in their final duel, she was fighting to the best of her ability, whereas Skywalker was incredibly pissed and intended to murder Lumiya. To add to the fact, Faunus is deeply mistaken; even if we ignore all of this prior exposition, Skywalker still did not outclass Lumiya in their final duel. As the book itself states, he simply ran her off the edge of a cliff.
His mastery of the Force? The New Jedi Order series mentions how severely the Emperor purged Jedi knowledge from the galaxy. It is likely that it would never recover what it is lost, especially since much of what is left was filled with "deliberate misinformation" that would "lead to a new age of Sith." Though Skywalker's knowledge seems broad (his knowledge of illusions and mastery of the shatterpoint charism), it is simply scraps compared to the prequel Masters and before. He will never rival the Emperor or Yoda or other figures in terms of knowledge and thereby mastery.
Skywalker. Is. Not. Infallible. Not even within a duel. He's not simply going to smash everyone in teh universe because he's Luke Skywalker. It's incontrovertible.
On the other hand, Skywalker is a friggin beast when he wants to be. When he sets aside his insecurities, he becomes a force of nature. His feats as depicted within the Dark Next Trilogy, the Unifying Force, and Invincible give representation to the true power at Skywalker's command should he find the ability and inclination to use it. And in that state of mind, in terms of sheer, straight-up combat ability, Skywalker is peerless. And in that regard, I'll concede that he is the greatest combatant ever in the mythos.
In advance, I would like to apologize for three things.
First, I would like to reiterate that Project Holocron is for discussion primarily; this is supposed to be a true meeting of the minds, not a place to engage in cutthroat debate. Let us cast aside our feelings and occasional disdain and exercise the greatest amount of patience; civil and professional debates only. To that end, I would like to apologize to Faunus for my behavior and have sent him a private message that conveys my concerns regarding some of his words. Second, excuse the triple posts. Third, please excuse my devilishly handsome good looks and unfettered charisma and otherwise godly persona. You may all bask in my glory.
Regarding Master Crimzon's analysis, I find it to be very well laid out. I would, however, like to address some specific points:
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I think that to simply call Palpatine's raw power on an ordinary scale is a bit off. He's not a regular force user- he's an avatar of darkness, the epitome of being a Sith. Kind of like an opposite Luke, only that Luke's raw power is well beyond Sidious'.
I personally find it inaccurate to compare Luke Skywalker to Palpatine. Though Test of Wills and official canon seem to imply that the Emperor and Skywalker are the greatest of ideological enemies and polar opposites, they are truly not in the same vein. As put best by Illuminatus Primus, Palpatine's obsession with the Skywalker bloodline seems to derive from his own malignant narcissism; he identifies himself with the universe and the dark side, the pinnacle of power. So to him, the Skywalkers represent the only other beings like him in the universe, but worse: they have the potential to surpass him, hence why he was so hellbent on subverting them to his will. He cannot tolerate someone eclipsing him unless he controls them. As far as their Force potency is concerned, you can't label Palpatine as anything approaching the "Sith Chosen One." Anakin and Luke Skywalker represent the greatest potential for mastery of the Force, hovering in the middle between light and dark. Palpatine is firmly in one camp. I'd say he is more of a "Dark Yoda" than a "Dark Luke."
In this category, I believe that Sidious- although not Skywalker-level- still excels. His natural affinity towards the dark side is, perhaps, unparalled; this is supported by how the Dark Side rose in power steeply in 200 years before Sidious' actual birth, leading us to conclude that the dark side of the force, that appears to operate as an almost conscious being. I believe this implies that he is a sort of a parallel to Anakin's 'chosen one'.
Again, I disagree with your conclusion. Skywalker's potential is twice that of the Emperor's; comparing the two as sort of dual-opposite Chosen Ones is absurd, since it would imply that the Jedi would have far greater power than the Sith, when (according to George Lucas), the dark side of the Force is "stronger."
But it does seem to imply that, in his own way, Palpatine is less a man than he is a concept: true evil. A force of nature. Part of nature.
Sidious possesses a mastery and knowledge of the force- and especially the dark side- beyond anything we have ever seen. That being said, though, he's not invincible. While his simple, acquired power may be the greatest among Sith, certain... err... artifacts give some Sith a chance to defeat him. Bane's Orbalisks and Kun's amulets, for example. By RotS, both Mace Windu and Yoda can defeat him, although Sidious can defeat them, too. By Dark Empire? Peak Luke can defeat him, but not without exerting himself in his entirety.
Palpatine's knowledge and mastery of the Force is the greatest we have seen in an individual. But, as Faunus has implied, that doesn't mean that he is the best in every one of its guises. Though he is a proficiently talented alchemist, there's nothing to say that he's the best one. Even telekinesis: though his raw power is well beyond Dooku's own, the Count demonstrates a greater finesse and control over it.
True. This is a power analysis, though, and hubris is a psychological weakness.
It is also a character analysis. Skywalker's personality was discussed because his personal fallibilites manifest themselves in combat as well. If an argument can be made that Palpatine's "hubris" does the same, it should be allowed.
Sidious is one vain, arrogance S.O.B, though.
Arrogant? Vain? No.
Palpatine was a malignant narcissist of the greatest order. His ultimate goal was to apoethesize himself and consume every sentient being into his will. To stifle life itself.
Originally posted by Gideon
You may all bask in my glory.
Never.
Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding Master Crimzon's analysis, I find it to be very well laid out. I would, however, like to address some specific points:
I'm listenin'.
Originally posted by Gideon
I personally find it inaccurate to compare Luke Skywalker to Palpatine. Though Test of Wills and official canon seem to imply that the Emperor and Skywalker are the greatest of ideological enemies and polar opposites, they are truly not in the same vein. As put best by Illuminatus Primus, Palpatine's obsession with the Skywalker bloodline seems to derive from his own malignant narcissism; he identifies himself with the universe and the dark side, the pinnacle of power. So to him, the Skywalkers represent the only other beings like him in the universe, but worse: they have the potential to surpass him, hence why he was so hellbent on subverting them to his will. He cannot tolerate someone eclipsing him unless he controls them. As far as their Force potency is concerned, you can't label Palpatine as anything approaching the "Sith Chosen One." Anakin and Luke Skywalker represent the greatest potential for mastery of the Force, hovering in the middle between light and dark. Palpatine is firmly in one camp. I'd say he is more of a "Dark Yoda" than a "Dark Luke."
Well, I don't know about that. It's very much correct that his raw power does not approach Luke's or Anakin's, but his natural grasp on the dark side and his years of extensive knowledge allowed him to match the 10 times more experienced Yoda; being able to match the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order in a force contest, despite having far less experience, seems to prove that Sidious' natural affinity to the dark side was incredible.
In addition, the fact remains that although there was no tangible presence of Sidious within the galaxy, the dark side rose, seemingly in preparation for his birth. Why? It would seem that he is the living vessel of the dark side, the physical incarnation of darkness. Therefore, he seems more similar to Anakin than to Yoda; Yoda, powerful as he is, is just a 'normal' force user. Both Anakin and Sidious are not.
Originally posted by Gideon
Again, I disagree with your conclusion. Skywalker's potential is twice that of the Emperor's; comparing the two as sort of dual-opposite Chosen Ones is absurd, since it would imply that the Jedi would have far greater power than the Sith, when (according to George Lucas), the dark side of the Force is "stronger."But it does seem to imply that, in his own way, Palpatine is less a man than he is a concept: true evil. A force of nature. Part of nature.
Well, I suppose good is supposed to triumph over evil, ultimately.
I agree with your second point. I think me using 'Chosen One' is wrong; he's the avatar of darkness in human form.
Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine's knowledge and mastery of the Force is the greatest we have seen in an individual. But, as Faunus has implied, that doesn't mean that he is the best in every one of its guises. Though he is a proficiently talented alchemist, there's nothing to say that he's the best one. Even telekinesis: though his raw power is well beyond Dooku's own, the Count demonstrates a greater finesse and control over it.
That's correct, but, OVERALL, he is the most masterful and knowledge dark side user we have ever seen- to my knowledge, aside from the vague possibility of Nihilus, no one displayed his level of destructive power in the force.
Originally posted by Gideon
It is also a character analysis. Skywalker's personality was discussed because his personal fallibilites manifest themselves in combat as well. If an argument can be made that Palpatine's "hubris" does the same, it should be allowed.
Well, if that's so, I guess we can discuss his hubris, although I doubt there is anything we can say that no one here has figured out on their own.
Originally posted by Gideon
Arrogant? Vain? No.Palpatine was a malignant narcissist of the greatest order. His ultimate goal was to apoethesize himself and consume every sentient being into his will. To stifle life itself.
He IS arrogant, as depicted by his complete and utter self-confidence. If he wasn't arrogant, he wouldn't have spent some time with Luke. He would have fried him, instead of refusing to see the possibility that Vader could break out of his control. That's arrogance; due to his psychological nature, Sidious simply could not believe that any pawn of his is any less than his complete inferior.
I guess he is a crazed narcissist, too.