Project Holocron

Originally posted by truejedi
Every one of the ancient sith, and jedi were ultimately killed by SOMEBODY. (or yoda, defeated, forced to retreat)

I agree with alot of your points, but I'll just point out one thing. Marka Ragnos died a natural death of 200 years. No one ever killed him, and hes never been shown to have been defeated while living(its unlikely he would keep his mantle of DLOTS if he was capable of being defeated). Thats some accomplishment during a time of unregulated natural selection, when the strong live, the weak die, and life expectancy was presumably not that long for the average Sith.

Also Im aware that his spirit was defeated when he possessed Tavion but that can be disregarded as we are dealing with a 4000+ year old spirit as opposed to the real thing. It puts him in a more favorable light if anything, because it shows he still had a good deal of power left even after 4000+ years of decay and the loss of his body parts which as evident in the case of Anakin, affects power level a great deal.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
In addition, the fact remains that although there was no tangible presence of Sidious within the galaxy, the dark side rose, seemingly in preparation for his birth. Why? It would seem that he is the living vessel of the dark side, the physical incarnation of darkness. Therefore, he seems more similar to Anakin than to Yoda; Yoda, powerful as he is, is just a 'normal' force user. Both Anakin and Sidious are not.

If you all want another opinion about that, it's very possible that the Dark Side was gaining strength in preperation for Anakin. A few reasons why this might be plausible is because:

1) Anakin was more than likely conceived through Sith Sorcery/Alchemy.
2) It was the doing of a powerful Dark Lord of the Sith.
3) When he is conceived, Ki-Adi-Mundi (on Tatooine at the time) sensed a disturbance in the Force (generally/always a bad thing).

Moreover, besides the impatience that Luke shows until he is beaten by Vader in ESB, Anakin's personality seems to be naturally darker and includes the same impatience, but with arrogance, rage, and fear added to it. If he was born to be the ultimate vessel of the Dark Side, such a thing would make sense. He also has the natural Force potential (high midi-clorian count) to handle such power without his body decaying. This is, in a roundabout way confirmed when Sidious tells Yoda, without hesistation, that Anakin would become more powerful than either of them. And GL's comment about Anakin having the potential to become twice as powerful as Sidious.

Another thing is the Prophesy of the Chosen One (which Yoda admits could have been misread), saying Anakin would bring balance to the Force. Well, a few thousand Jedi and Light Side users compared with two Sith is quite unbalanced, is it not?

Given the Sith tendancy to betray and kill their masters, it's possible the Dark Side was rising in preperation for Anakin becoming Darth Vader, slaying his master, and becoming the ultimate vessel of the Dark Side of the Force.

His arrogance and Mustafar incident obviously prevented that.

Just another opinion.

*slinks out*

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I agree with alot of your points, but I'll just point out one thing. Marka Ragnos died a natural death of 200 years. No one ever killed him, and hes never been shown to have been defeated while living(its unlikely he would keep his mantle of DLOTS if he was capable of being defeated). Thats some accomplishment during a time of unregulated natural selection, when the strong live, the weak die, and life expectancy was presumably not that long for the average Sith.

Also Im aware that his spirit was defeated when he possessed Tavion but that can be disregarded as we are dealing with a 4000+ year old spirit as opposed to the real thing. It puts him in a more favorable light if anything, because it shows he still had a good deal of power left even after 4000+ years of decay and the loss of his body parts which as evident in the case of Anakin, affects power level a great deal.

ya he is the only exception and i am very excited for when we discuss him.

and as of right now it is also still possible that Revan has not been defeated by anyone either.

But we are getting way ahead of ourselves. back to sidious

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He IS arrogant, as depicted by his complete and utter self-confidence. If he wasn't arrogant, he wouldn't have spent some time with Luke. He would have fried him, instead of refusing to see the possibility that Vader could break out of his control. That's arrogance; due to his psychological nature, Sidious simply could not believe that any pawn of his is any less than his complete inferior.

I guess he is a crazed narcissist, too.

LOL. You missed my point, here. 'Arrogant' and 'vain' are too weak to describe Palpatine's personality.

Edit: In response to Enyalus, to quote George Almighty, "Palpatine is the revenge of the Sith. Anakin/Vader is just a pawn." Even as Vader, his impact on the Force is minimal. It is only when he acts on his destiny does he create an impact like none other. That's the whole purpose of Anakin; despite his immeasurable potential and peerless destiny, his presence in the Force is no more or less than any other Jedi.

Originally posted by Enyalus
1) Anakin was more than likely conceived through Sith Sorcery/Alchemy.

Actually, Sidious pretty much dismissed this theory in Rise of Darth Vader.

Originally conceived by Sidious's brain, then posted by your God
How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

LOL. Did you notice, Faunus, the complete lack of regard for the potential loss of Anakin as a human being? That Palpatine was only concerned for the inconvenience of losing a powerful apprentice?

That scene always cracks me up. What a dick.

Originally posted by Gideon
LOL. Did you notice, Faunus, the complete lack of regard for the potential loss of Anakin as a human being? That Palpatine was only concerned for the inconvenience of losing a powerful apprentice?

That scene always cracks me up. What a dick.

Test of Wills makes Dark Empire a masterpiece. I cannot, however, speak for its dreaded sequels. Stop hating on the Force Storms and shiz; if uberpowerful Palpatine has to go, all uberpowerful characters must vacate as well. He is the greatest villain in the canon, though he does not begin to approach the class of Grand Admiral Gilad Pellaeon. <3

Originally posted by Faunus
He's a douche, to be sure. Hating on aliens and all non-British-sounding white people, setting the galaxy at war with itself and playing both sides, ordering the massacre of several thousand little kids, knocking out Yoda (that was a jackass thing to do), and killing f*cking SLJ pretty much cement his status as the SW saga's most prominent evil ****. Although to be fair, orchestrating the Clone War was badass. So was his ritual in Sithisis. In fact, had the RotS movie gone like novel - except for the battle with Yoda - and had DE never existed, I would have far more respect for the character than I do now.

All very true. The best portrayal of him, in my opinion, was in Return of the Jedi. To me, he was just...the absolute shiite. I mean, for awesome badguys growing up, my favorites pretty much read as The Emperor, Skeletor, and Magneto. lol

EDIT: I also didn't find Dark Empire bad, but 2 was downright boring and 3 was crappy.

I think they confirmed Palpatine didn't really care about whether people were aliens or humans, it was just a way to keep a good society barrier and keep his servitors at the top.

In other words, he's THAT EVIL.

Originally posted by Gideon
Stop hating on the Force Storms and shiz; if uberpowerful Palpatine has to go, all uberpowerful characters must vacate as well.

Originally posted by Faunus
What other "uberpowerful" characters are there that even approach the avatar of stupidity that is DE Palpatine?

Naga Sadow. While I grant you his feats are purely based on Sith arcana, making a star go supernova (by any means) is ridiculous.

Luke is the son of a being created by the Force itself, and this thread is a testament to his fallibility even then.

I don't count Skywalker. He never comes close to rendering the destruction of Naga "I blow up stars" Sadow or Darth "I blow up fleets, planets, and puppies" Sidious.

Nihilus isn't an ambitious, thinking, well-defined individual so much as an insatiable and violent force of nature - as I said, he's more presence than personality, and rarely displays any vestige of humanity. Even his few "quirks" evidenced in Unseen, Unheard are primal and raw.

Still he is the Sith, and even the prequel canon has made it clear: the Force is imbalanced by Sidious and Sidious alone. Yet that doesn't make sense if Nihilus is really "less a being than presence."

Then of course, there's Zonama Seko, who is a living planet.

Yeah, it's dumb.

Originally posted by Gideon
Naga Sadow. While I grant you his feats are purely based on Sith arcana, making a star go supernova (by any means) is ridiculous.

Still he is the Sith, and even the prequel canon has made it clear: the Force is imbalanced by Sidious and Sidious alone. Yet that doesn't make sense if Nihilus is really "less a being than presence."

Originally posted by Faunus
Oh yeah. Him, too.

That's right, *****. I win. Who's your daddy?

You lost me.

We'll have to continue this in the morning, on this thread, when I can communicate effectively.

Originally posted by Gideon
Naga Sadow. While I grant you his feats are purely based on Sith arcana, making a star go supernova (by any means) is ridiculous.

*laughs* I guess we should throw in Aleema Keto and Exar Kun (who didn't do so, but knew how to.)

Aleema 'quadruple supernova' Keto DEFINITELY qualifies...and Exar from the senate and amulets alone.

Lord, but for the days when Exar won every vs. fight by standard around blasting like a mad man and laughing hysterically

It's the ship more than the character. How a relative weakling like Aleema Keto can tear the core out of a star - which would obviously take unimaginably massive amounts of power, absurd even by SW standards - is otherwise beyond me.

But yeah, that thing is dumb.

Aleema Keto was trained by Freedon Nadd, who killed Naga Sadow...And then was trained by Exar Kun, who killed Freedon Nadd. Thus, Aleema > Nadd & Sadow.

Non sequitor FTW!

Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi-Wan and defeated Darth Vader, whom Obi-Wan died against but earlier defeated, who defeated Count Dooku, who defeated Obi-Wan, who defeated Anakin, who in the end defeated the Darth Vader persona and killed Darth Sidious, who previously defeated Yoda...

No, wait, needs revision. Cuz Obi-Wan beat lil' Vader, not Anakin. DAMMIT.

I wish we'd get more on Nadd honestly...if his reign as DLOTS wasn't so ridiculously uneventful.