Originally posted by Lightsnake
I wish we'd get more on Nadd honestly...if his reign as DLOTS wasn't so ridiculously uneventful.
I still don't get Nadd's story. Some material states that he was unable to defeat the reigning DLOTS so he fled to Onderon. Other sources claim he murdered Sadow's spirit and proclaimed himself DLOTS.. Who knows. George Lucas is gay.
It's simple: Because KJA is a bad writer, he had the Sith wiped out DURING the time Nadd was supposed to have fled, so retroactively, better writers updated the story so that Nadd instead fled the Jedi, went to Yavin 4, awakened Sadow, eventually killed him and fled to Onderon where he lived as a petty tyrant
And, after ten hours of much needed sleep (Faunus's mom can wear me out, lemme tell ya!), I am back to discuss the Galactic Emperor.
Force potency:
The Emperor has been identified as "the grim culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings", "the one born with the power to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument", and the individual whom the Sith Order had been waiting for: one born with the power to return them from hiding to dominate the galaxy; the revenge of the Sith.
There can be no question that the Emperor's potency in the Force was vast; Luke Skywalker, in the New Rebellion, mentioned that the dark side threat (Kueller) embodied a sense of power that he hadn't felt since the Emperor, and mused that none of his students approached such a level of potency -- which implies that the Emperor's raw strength exceeds that of Kyp Durron himself. Moreover, the omniscient narrator of Revenge of the Sith identifies Palpatine with the dark side of the Force itself, referring to him as "the shadow" who was blunting Jedi sensitivity throughout the galaxy and casting the Force into darkness. In that same novel, Count Dooku would gaze upon Palpatine "through the eyes of the Force itself" and notice that Palpatine was simply "beyond power." In the Essential Guide to the Force, Mara Jade Skywalker recalls her time as an Emperor's Hand and notes that her powers were fueled by the Emperor's "vast reserves of Force energy"; this coming from a woman who had befriended and would later marry the powerful personage of Luke Skywalker. Skywalker himself, before his confrontation with Supreme Overlord Shimrra, noted that the Emperor was a "shell of a human in a cloak, more energy than flesh." According to Wizards of the Coast's article on Byss, Palpatine transformed the once-nascent planet into "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy" during his reign as Emperor; a time when he was primarily secluded on Coruscant. He would later use the Force to break the wills of its twenty billion inhabitants and leech off of their vitality to lengthen his own life. Dark Empire and the New Essential Chronology refer to the Emperor as a "dark side nexus."
Force mastery:
Statements from the Dark Empire Sourcebook and the Dark Side Sourcebook display Palpatine's knowledge of the Force to be particularly amazing. He has studied the Force in all of its guises, possesses a "wealth of Sith knowledge" even before his ascent to Galactic Emperor. He would later collect the greatest teachings of the Force from a million worlds and surpass any knowledge of the Krath and other esoteric Sith cults, including the Prophets of the Dark Side and the Sorcerers of Tund. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explicitly states that the Emperor's knowledge was so great that it was believed that he had mastered almost all of the known Force techniques, previously unknown ones, and that he devises new ones at his leisure. There can be no question that the Emperor's knowledge of the Force (particularly the dark side, even though he is also stated to be a master of Jedi knowledge as well) is unequalled by any individual throughout the whole of canon.
Lightsaber combat:
Emperor Palpatine trained Darth Maul in the lightsaber form Juyo, which was only to be mastered by "high end masters of multiple forms" which corroborates Nick Gillard's comments regarding Darth Sidious's mastery of the lightsaber. Palpatine's musings in The Essential Guide to the Force reveal that he was also a master of Teras Kasi, and was the one who indoctrinated Maul in martial arts. He was capable of imbuing himself with such speed to kill three celebrated swordsmen in under thirty seconds, compete with Yoda, and force Mace Windu on the defensive. He also has demonstrated enough skill to outline Darth Maul's figure so closely with a lightsaber that "the merest twitch of a muscle" would have dismembered the Sith apprentice. He also summons Darth Maul's lightsaber to him telekinetically in Darth Maul: Saboteur, ignites the blade, and performs psychokinetic feats with it, leaving Maul in "unabashed awe", suggesting that he may be capable of telekinetically wielding a lightsaber with great precision. It is evident that he found lightsaber combat to be the least of his Sithly concerns, mentioning to Vader that he only uses it to "humilate the Jedi." So while his actual skill in terms of swordsmanship may be surpassed by a handful of other Sith and Jedi, he is still an undisputed great with a blade.
Conclusion:
The Emperor's raw potency is undeniably vast. While he is not at the level of Anakin or Luke Skywalker, that is not to say that he does not rival other members of the Skywalker clan in terms of potential; he might even surpass most of them. His mastery of the Force is unequalled throughout the whole of canon by any singular individual. That is not to say that he is the most proficient in each and every one of its techniques -- as Faunus has mentioned, while Count Dooku's power will never approach that of the Emperor's, it is highly probable that the Count's mastery of telekinesis is more efficient and masterful than the Emperor's own -- but it means that he is at least master level with the majority of them. The fact that the likes of Darth Vader and the Emperor are still used as measuring sticks for power even by Legacy of the Force suggests that he has a parity with Luke Skywalker in most regards. If one were to compare the two, I would say that the Emperor's mastery of the Force is still greater, but Skywalker is the more capable combatant.
Lastly, that is not to say that the Emperor is without peer. Even throughout his reign, Palpatine kept a cunning eye on those who possessed the ability to challenge or defeat him: Inquisitor Jerec and the Nightsister Gethzerion come to mind. Luke Skywalker, Yoda, and Mace Windu as well. One would also speculate that Marka Ragnos, as well, could challenge the Emperor.
Originally posted by Gideon
LOL. You missed my point, here. 'Arrogant' and 'vain' are too weak to describe Palpatine's personality.Edit: In response to Enyalus, to quote George Almighty, "Palpatine is the revenge of the Sith. Anakin/Vader is just a pawn." Even as Vader, his impact on the Force is minimal. It is only when he acts on his destiny does he create an impact like none other. That's the whole purpose of Anakin; despite his immeasurable potential and peerless destiny, his presence in the Force is no more or less than any other Jedi.
Why the massive 'LOL'? 😑
Yeah, that should deal with Enyalus' post.
Edit: Enyalus, how DARE you put Skeletor in the same sentence as Magneto and the Emperor? Jesus, that guy is laaaaame. You shall be annihilated.
Originally posted by Gideon
And, after ten hours of much needed sleep (Faunus's mom can wear me out, lemme tell ya!), I am back to discuss the Galactic Emperor.[B]Force potency
:The Emperor has been identified as "the grim culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings", "the one born with the power to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument", and the individual whom the Sith Order had been waiting for: one born with the power to return them from hiding to dominate the galaxy; the revenge of the Sith.
There can be no question that the Emperor's potency in the Force was vast; Luke Skywalker, in the New Rebellion, mentioned that the dark side threat (Kueller) embodied a sense of power that he hadn't felt since the Emperor, and mused that none of his students approached such a level of potency -- which implies that the Emperor's raw strength exceeds that of Kyp Durron himself. [/B]
How can the emperor have as much raw power as Kyp when according to Luke Kyp has more potential than he does?
Originally posted by truejedi
why ragnos especially? how does he get to be a top tier guy? otherwise, good assessement on Sids.
Well, Ludo Kressh was powerful enough to wave his hand and destroy a massive stone statue (at least, what, 50 ft tall, conservative estimate?). This indicates tremendous Force potential. Moreover, the Sith Swords used channelled and focused Dark Side energy, making their Force Lightning much more devastating.
Naga Sadow held a small edge in their duel, before Ludo made it virtually even again - indicating that Naga was perhaps the slightly more powerful combatant. Besides this, he was able to combine Sith Sorcery with technology, resulting in the ability to trigger supernovae. In addition, it was his Sith amulets that Kun wore, capable of vaporizing multiple elite Sith warriors and blowing up temples.
Freedon Nadd, who was taught personally by Naga Sadow and learned everything he did before killing either him or his spirit - possessed so much Dark Side power that his body decaying in a similar manner to Palpatine's...yet his spirit was easily slain by Exar Kun using Sadow's own amulets once Exar learned what he had to know and became irritated with him.
Yet, when Ragnos' spirit appears before Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, Kun practically seems in awe of Ragnos' sheer prescence and power in the Dark Side. It's clear trying to slay his spirit doesn't even cross Exar's mind.
Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire for more than a hundred years. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh never dared try to usurp the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith from him, and openly commented about how powerful and terrifying he was.
When his spirit threatens to return after Return of the Jedi, Luke muses that if Ragnos were alive it would take the entire Jedi Academy to even try and destroy him. Plus, there is the often-quoted line of him being "the most powerful of the powerful, the Dark Lord."
Soooo, that's probably why Gideon mentions him being perhaps up there with Palpatine in terms of sheer power.
Originally posted by Gideon
And, after ten hours of much needed sleep (Faunus's mom can wear me out, lemme tell ya!), I am back to discuss the Galactic Emperor.
Originally posted by You
First, I would like to reiterate that Project Holocron is for discussion primarily; this is supposed to be a true meeting of the minds... civil and professional debates only.
Civil and professional, right? Hypocrite.
On-topic, I find the logic behind your conclusion regarding Kyp Durron's potential relative to Palpatine's to be rather suspect. You claim that Luke was wrong in presuming that his student's potential could possible rival his own - when his mere testing of the boy knocked him off his feet - yet he was undeniably correct in finding that Kueller was a more potent presence in the Force than Durron was.
But that isn't even my main issue with it. Having a greater presence in the Force isn't indicative of greater raw power. If it were, then Sidious - whose presence on Coruscant once he let himself be known turned the currents of the Force "arctic" in Yoda's min, plus everything you mentioned in your assessment - would possess far more raw power than the Chosen One himself, who was never noted to have a tremendous personal impact on the Force by simply existing. It was only in instances when he temporarily succumbed to the dark side (massacre of the Tusken Raiders, defeating Asajj Ventress the first time) that he sent truly noticeable reverberations through the Force.
Correct me if I'm missing something, but if you bring up my mother again I shall have to push you down some stairs.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Ludo Kressh was powerful enough to wave his hand and destroy a massive stone statue (at least, what, 50 ft tall, conservative estimate?). This indicates tremendous Force potential. Moreover, the Sith Swords used channelled and focused Dark Side energy, making their Force Lightning much more devastating.
Naga Sadow held a small edge in their duel, before Ludo made it virtually even again - indicating that Naga was perhaps the slightly more powerful combatant. Besides this, he was able to combine Sith Sorcery with technology, resulting in the ability to trigger supernovae. In addition, it was his Sith amulets that Kun wore, capable of vaporizing multiple elite Sith warriors and blowing up temples.Freedon Nadd, who was taught personally by Naga Sadow and learned everything he did before killing either him or his spirit - possessed so much Dark Side power that his body decaying in a similar manner to Palpatine's...yet his spirit was easily slain by Exar Kun using Sadow's own amulets once Exar learned what he had to know and became irritated with him.
Yet, when Ragnos' spirit appears before Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, Kun practically seems in awe of Ragnos' sheer prescence and power in the Dark Side. It's clear trying to slay his spirit doesn't even cross Exar's mind.
Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire for more than a hundred years. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh never dared try to usurp the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith from him, and openly commented about how powerful and terrifying he was.
When his spirit threatens to return after Return of the Jedi, Luke muses that if Ragnos were alive it would take the entire Jedi Academy to even try and destroy him. Plus, there is the often-quoted line of him being "the most powerful of the powerful, [b]the Dark Lord."
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Ludo Kressh was powerful enough to wave his hand and destroy a massive stone statue (at least, what, 50 ft tall, conservative estimate?). This indicates tremendous Force potential. Moreover, the Sith Swords used channelled and focused Dark Side energy, making their Force Lightning much more devastating.Naga Sadow held a small edge in their duel, before Ludo made it virtually even again - indicating that Naga was perhaps the slightly more powerful combatant. Besides this, he was able to combine Sith Sorcery with technology, resulting in the ability to trigger supernovae. In addition, it was his Sith amulets that Kun wore, capable of vaporizing multiple elite Sith warriors and blowing up temples.
Freedon Nadd, who was taught personally by Naga Sadow and learned everything he did before killing either him or his spirit - possessed so much Dark Side power that his body decaying in a similar manner to Palpatine's...yet his spirit was easily slain by Exar Kun using Sadow's own amulets once Exar learned what he had to know and became irritated with him.
Yet, when Ragnos' spirit appears before Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, Kun practically seems in awe of Ragnos' sheer prescence and power in the Dark Side. It's clear trying to slay his spirit doesn't even cross Exar's mind.
Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire for more than a hundred years. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh never dared try to usurp the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith from him, and openly commented about how powerful and terrifying he was.
When his spirit threatens to return after Return of the Jedi, Luke muses that if Ragnos were alive it would take the entire Jedi Academy to even try and destroy him. Plus, there is the often-quoted line of him being "the most powerful of the powerful, [b]the
Dark Lord."Soooo, that's probably why Gideon mentions him being perhaps up there with Palpatine in terms of sheer power. [/B]
thats a lot of a>b>c logic in those first few paragraphs, and i would point out that the apprentice almost ALWAYS kills the master, but i'll go with it.
But JA Luke is a FAR CRY from ANY of the top tier luke's we know of. At the time of JA, the "jedi order" is pretty much luke and kyle, and a bunch of padawans. So the fact that it would take all of them to conquer this guy doesn't impress me much.
Originally posted by Faunus
Civil and professional, right? Hypocrite.
Not really. I mean, judging from her expertise, she is quite the professional, indeed.
On-topic, I find the logic behind your conclusion regarding Kyp Durron's potential relative to Palpatine's to be rather suspect. You claim that Luke was wrong in presuming that his student's potential could possible rival his own - when his mere testing of the boy knocked him off his feet - yet he was undeniably correct in finding that Kueller was a more potent presence in the Force than Durron was.
Which was, what? The equivalent to a Force 'reflex'? Kyp Durron has had almost as many years of study and tutelage in the Force as Skywalker himself; moreover, he is a proponent of far more aggressive methods for utilizing his latent Force energies, as demonstrated by his rift with the Grand Master throughout the majority of the Yuuzhan Vong's invasion. It is painfully obvious that, while Skywalker is bound by hesitation and insecurities, Durron is not. Despite this great latitude he affords himself, mentally, he hasn't even begun to approach the power or prowess of someone of Skywalker or Palpatine's stature. Moreover, Skywalker was certain of his assessment of Kueller.
But that isn't even my main issue with it. Having a greater presence in the Force isn't indicative of greater raw power. If it were, then Sidious - whose presence on Coruscant once he let himself be known turned the currents of the Force "arctic" in Yoda's min, plus everything you mentioned in your assessment - would possess far more raw power than the Chosen One himself, who was never noted to have a tremendous personal impact on the Force by simply existing. It was only in instances when he temporarily succumbed to the dark side (massacre of the Tusken Raiders, defeating Asajj Ventress the first time) that he sent truly noticeable reverberations through the Force.
Skywalker wasn't assessing his comparisons between Kueller, Palpatine, and the rest of his fledgling Jedi Order on sheer presence in the Force. He felt Kueller's power through the Force -- something that could be done with Anakin Skywalker -- and decided that he hadn't felt such strength since the Emperor himself, and mused that none of his students were that strong.
Correct me if I'm missing something, but if you bring up my mother again I shall have to push you down some stairs.
She did that already.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
Any way whats the assessment on sidious so far?
Everyone is free to make an assessment.
Originally posted by Faunus
You saw Crimzon's and Gideon's assessments, right? I guess the rest of us pretty much agree.
well if everyone else agrees then lets move on to placing him as number two under LOTF Luke(when he doesn't hold back) BUT just Far behind is DE Sids to Luke when he isn't holding back?
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
well if everyone else agrees then lets move on to placing him as number two under LOTF Luke(when he doesn't hold back) BUT just Far behind is DE Sids to Luke when he isn't holding back?
We aren't "ranking" them; it's impossible, really, to give a definitive list. We can only group them into tiers based on ability. Skywalker's mastery of the Force is still not equal to the Emperor's own, even though he is spectacular by merit of sheer raw potency.
With regards to Crimzon and Gideon's assessment of Palpatine's saber ability - if we are taking everyone at their peak incarnations (which we probably are?) - it seems that DE Sidious should probably be at least 2nd or 3rd in that regard, in comparison to everyone else in the mythos.
Wasn't he able to effortly go into an avatar state to duel Luke? If that's taken into account and/or counts, and considering that the Dark Side's strength is more than the Light Side's...