Dr. Doom vs Thanos

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======= Earth-691 (the 31st Century of 616) =======

616 Heroes Time Travel to "the" FUTURE (the Year 3014)

Guardians of the Galaxy Time Travel BACK in Time to Present (616)

"In 3014, Tarin was accidentally SENT BACK to Earth-616's MODERN ERA,
CA/Thing/Sharon Carter accompanied Tarin BACK to her Time,
where they teamed with the Guardians to liberate NYC from the Badoon ...
learning that the Badoon
had staged a failed invasion of Earth in the HEROIC AGE (616)
the Guardians ...
VIA TIME TRAVEL, visited Earth-616's Modern Era, meeting that era's YOUNG Vance"

+++++++ Wow, look at that

Vance is literally Young in 616, signifying the direct link between Time periods,
obviously, the GOTG's 31st Century is a direct FUTURE of 616,
but This Future is labeled 691,
just like Secret Wars Doom was from an unlabeled Future,
just like ALL "possible" FutureS of 616,
are labeled something other than 616. +++++++

"After erasing young Vance's knowledge of the Guardians and their period,
the Guardians returned to the 31st-Century Earth-691"

................................................................................................................

See ... although it's the SAME character (young Vance) from Present (616)
because (adult Vance) is located in the Future, he's from ANOTHER Timeline!

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Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"

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Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom has and did pwn Galactus on his own with prep. Twice. Annihilus, Tenebrous, Aegis and Thanos together held Galactus prisoner. And Thanos still couldn't figure out the secrets to stripping, transferring or imbuing others with the Power Cosmic. Something Doom figured out years and years ago.
Doom's best prep feats rival and arguably surpass Thanos' best. Doom didn't get an Infinity Well for knowledge. He didn't get Death augmenting him. He didn't get much time either for most of them. He certainly didn't have "allies," as the traditional term is used. Most people do give 616 Doom the feat. Very few even know of the debate Mr. Master and I are having. And up until now, I didn't think it was absolutely conclusive either way. Now, I am 100% sure that it is and always was 616 Dr. Doom.
The same criticism you're using to detract from Doom pwning Galactus in Secret Wars is the same criticism I can lay on Thanos, when he used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order to acquire THOTU. The sword of your logic cuts both-ways. Double-standards don't suit you.
You will. When I get my laptop's power cord back and I'm not restrained from downloading comics. I'm posting from a library at this very moment.
No. It's clear. Secret Wars Dr. Doom was always 616 Dr. Doom. The odd paradox that presents in and of itself is exactly what forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288.

Ok,and? Thanos knew where the gems were. He already previously possessed them and the infinity well helped him out. He has to find out somewhere. He still had to go out and hunt the gems down.

Ok,Thanos used the distraction to gain the hotu. The same hotu that Doom erred in trying to acquire. It seems both men wanted the same thing and only Thanos managed this feat. This is the only time both of these characters were in the same story after the same thing. Thanos got it while Doom didnt.

I gave Dom the feat. I am a generous man. Doom needs it. he stil lost it due to the fact he couldnt handle such raw power. Shame.

Mr Master, you haven't answered my question. You obviously have the prescience to understand exactly where it is I am going. But instead of jumping two or three steps ahead and citing secondary and tertiary sources, why don't we deal with the primary on-panel source first. Answer my question, "What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

Quanchi112, the Omega was a failed experiment. You may think it's more impressive than Doom's own success with the Power Cosmic, but I take it with a grain of salt. Thanos could not transfer, isolate or strip the Power Cosmic. Doom did.

I only mentioned the Infinity Well because you criticized Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Well, Thanos possessed the Infinity Gems prior to gaining knowledge from the Infinity Well and had no clue what they were. Do you criticize Thanos for not knowing what they were, prior to his gaining knowledge about them? Certainly not. As such, don't deride Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Double-standards are ugly.

Doom tried to go for Akhenaten's power, not THOTU. Other than that, you've repeated yourself. Thanos gained THOTU, because TOAA gave it to him intentionally and Thanos used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order. Doom successfully acquired Beyonder's power by confronting him directly. Nobody gave Doom that power.

You haven't given me anything. You act as if your argument is stronger because I'm relying on some premise that you are granting me out of generosity. That's ridiculous. You want to weigh in on our debate, go ahead. Don't act as if you're being magnanimous. Past that, as I said before, Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance. That was the first time he really had acquired power on that vast scale. You've already pointed out Thanos could handle THOTU because of his experience with the Infinity Gauntlet. Why you engage in double-standards is beyond me. You've underestimated Doom. Most people do. Doom has achieved more with less and when playing on a cosmic scale, is just as, if not more so impressive. Nuff said. Feel free to share your own opinions as I do mine, just leave the double-standards out of them.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Mr Master, you haven't answered my question. You obviously have the prescience to understand exactly where it is I am going. But instead of jumping two or three steps ahead and citing secondary and tertiary sources, why don't we deal with the primary on-panel source first. Answer my question, "What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

If you believe 616 Doom was existing simultaneously on Battleworld & on Earth 616,
that's on you.

But in Marvel comics, if you're situated in the future,
then you're from another Timeline, (alternate future) That's it.

Beyonder plucked Secret Wars Doom from the future, (another Timeline)

While 616 Doom was left on Earth 616, chillin with McArthur's wife:

This is why as I posted like 10 times,
616 Doom never saw, or met the Beyonder until the end of Secret Wars II:

I mean, it's right there in plain english, so we're just dancing in circles.

I'm done.

Believe what you wish.

This thread is dead to me now, nothing more to say.

Mr Master, I'm going to ask again, "What do you believe is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?" Just answer the question. I'm not intentionally trolling here. I just don't want to put words into your mouth when I go on to tackle your positions. You can already see that I'm backing you into a corner, but it's the easiest corner to end this debate with. So just answer the question, because it's a very fair one.

Otherwise, if you choose to not reply and you've indeed posted your final say, then I will post my final say in a succinct fashion thereafter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Thanos gained THOTU,
because TOAA gave it to him intentionally
and Thanos used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order.

Sure, TOAA wanted Thanos to be the one to borrow the supreme power,
but nonetheless, Thanos had to achieve that end on his own.
Which he did.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Doom successfully acquired Beyonder's power by confronting him directly.

Nobody gave Doom that power.

Luckily for the future alternate Doom,
Beyonder warped the Concept of Death in the Universe where Battleworld was located,
so that the combatants would be uberly difficult to kill, if at all possible:

"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder.
But Death, we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home/"

😬

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Impossible to prove speculation.

... if I don't get it, there'll be hell to pay. 😠

Thanos , although Thanos did give props to doom

Darn it, I came back in here just to post that last joint,
I see the same bold thingy is still kicking.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Mr Master, I'm going to ask again, "What do you believe is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?" Just answer the question.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm not intentionally trolling here.
I just don't want to put words into your mouth
when I go on to tackle your positions.

Still, you can tackle all you want, you can post ten essays,
and in the end, as I proved:

In Marvel comics, if you're situated in the future,
then you're from another Timeline, (alternate future) That's it.

No amount of draining lectures will ever change that Marvel fact.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You can already see that I'm backing you into a corner,
but it's the easiest corner to end this debate with.

So just answer the question, because it's a very fair one.

You got jokes.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Otherwise, if you choose to not reply and you've indeed posted your final say, then I will post my final say in a succinct fashion thereafter.

You'll never change the fact that everything situated in the Future in Marvel comics,
is located in a separate alternate Timeline. (possible futures .. they're infinite)

So if Secret Wars Doom came from the Future,
then Secret Wars Doom came from another Timeline.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Do you care to wait until I've posted scans to pass judgment on this?

Doom never had that kind of power again,
and Doom will never get another chance at that power again, so ...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I should get my power cord tomorrow afternoon.
I did pay $17.00 for next-day shipping...

... if I don't get it, there'll be hell to pay.

What are you running?

I'm more screwed than you are,
I won't have access to KMC for at-least the next two months. scream

Originally posted by Mr Master
I did, and I don't even care anymore.

Asking the same question when it's been answered is a bit trollish...

So if Secret Wars Doom came from the Future,
then Secret Wars Doom came from another Timeline.

Before that, quick recap of Fantastic Four #288, which takes place years after Secret Wars. 616-Doom, stuck in a civilian's (Norman MacArthur) body summons "the greatest power in the universe." He ends up summoning Beyonder. Reed confronts them and begins berating Doom about Beyonder. Through the course of their conversation, it becomes clear Doom has never met Beyonder before. Beyonder looks past Doom's mortal body and recognizes Doom as the one who bested him though. Beyonder wants to kill him, but Reed says he can't. So what gives?

Mr Master believes that the original Doom in Secret Wars was not 616-Doom, but some random non-existent schlub Doom from the future, e.g. 212-Doom (completely arbitrary #). Since 616-Doom wasn't in his actual body on the day the rest of the heroes and villains were summoned to Battleworld, Beyonder grabbed one from a future. This 212-Doom is then replaced by 616 Doom in FF #288 and 616 Doom inexorably plays out events.

This is untrue. Why? The issue is decided by the answer to this simple, yet crucial, question, "What is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616-Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

As Reed and Beyonder speak of in their conversations, the reason Beyonder can't kill the one mortal who humiliated him was because 616-Doom had yet to play his part in history. If he was killed there, 616-Doom could never go back to Secret Wars, do the things he did and history wouldn't play out like it was supposed to. This would result in the space-time continuum being torn apart, time being destroyed and even Beyonder himself being destroyed.

Now ask yourself this next crucial question... "Why would all that catastrophe happen if there was already a schlub 212-Doom who had acted out those events? Why do we even need 616-Doom? Why would killing 616-Doom in FF #288 do anything except deprive the present of 616-Doom?"

Because there was never a 212-Doom. It was always 616-Doom. That was the paradox. That was why Beyonder could not kill him. If there was some schlub 212-Doom who could adequately play out Secret Wars and keep history intact, 616-Earth wouldn't be in danger of losing it's history. This is clear from the on-panel conversations:

It's exactly as Reed states. The talk of all this "future Doom" is completely relative. "Future Doom" as Mr Master likes to call him, was actually present 616 Doom from FF #288. He's only "future Doom" in that he is existing in a future relative to Secret Wars. 616 Doom never replaced some random 212-Doom. He was only taking his rightful spot in history as the one and only Doom in Secret Wars. As Reed himself clearly states, SW Doom is from: "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to Doctor Doom!"

616 Doom was the first Doom who defeats Beyonder and later on, Beyonder travels to Earth and sends back 616 Doom to do that. Does that cause a chicken-egg-chicken-egg conundrum? Sure. Like all time travel stories we deal with. But can we truly be 100% absolute sure that Reed is saying exactly what I am saying? Yes. Because Reed also states that the sent back 616-Doom will "begin a cycle that will end with the Beyonder banishing him "across time and space," at the conclusion of the first Secret Wars." That's right, 616-Doom is beginning the cycle. 616-Doom didn't just step into a cycle that was already created by a 212-Doom from some random non-existent future:

It's very simple. It's all on-panel. It's clearly explained by Reed and Beyonder and Dr. Doom. There is no "212-Doom." He is a fiction. Any talk of "212-Doom" leads up to Reed's and Beyonder's revelation that FF #288 Doom was indeed the same Doom in Secret Wars. He couldn't be killed because he had to be sent back to go through history. He goes through it, performs his greatest feat, and is banished at the end of Secret Wars. Where is he banished to? Right to the very room he was sent from. He even begins materializing before Reed finishes explaining everything to the less-than-intelligent She-Hulk:

The Beyonder feat is 616-Doom's, Fantastic Four #288 makes that clear. Secret Wars Doom is, and always was, 616-Doom.

Why would future Doom have to be from another timeline?

Just want to add..."there is no power on Earth, no intellect in all of creation to equal mine"

So swears Doom.

Carry on.

Originally posted by Lord S
Just want to add..."there is no power on Earth, no intellect in all of creation to equal mine"

So swears Doom.

Carry on.

BLASPHEMY ❌

Just to add some more confusion about alternate timelines, Marvel stated that events in "Marvel Universe: The End" took place in "the Earth-4321 reality", and that "at least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed".

So I guess the events of The End shouldn't even be raised as evidence with the rules about alternate realities, and trying to guess the "extent of the duplication" is conjecture.

Originally posted by basilisk
Just to add some more confusion about alternate timelines, Marvel stated that events in "Marvel Universe: The End" took place in "the Earth-4321 reality", and that "at least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed".

So I guess the events of The End shouldn't even be raised as evidence with the rules about alternate realities, and trying to guess the "extent of the duplication" is conjecture.

In light of Mr Master's contention that beings from the past or future are actually from another reality...one can conclude that Akhenaten was from Reality-4321, but can challenge the notion that the entire story was out of continuity. I too have read comments made by Marvel editors stating that 'The End' was not canon, but for debating purposes I think everyone here has accepted the event as canon.

I'd like to know what KMC's official position is on this issue. It would clear up the confusion on here as to whether or not we're allowed to use the events of 'The End' as evidence in a debate.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mr Master, you haven't answered my question. You obviously have the prescience to understand exactly where it is I am going. But instead of jumping two or three steps ahead and citing secondary and tertiary sources, why don't we deal with the primary on-panel source first. Answer my question, [b]"What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

Quanchi112, the Omega was a failed experiment. You may think it's more impressive than Doom's own success with the Power Cosmic, but I take it with a grain of salt. Thanos could not transfer, isolate or strip the Power Cosmic. Doom did.

I only mentioned the Infinity Well because you criticized Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Well, Thanos possessed the Infinity Gems prior to gaining knowledge from the Infinity Well and had no clue what they were. Do you criticize Thanos for not knowing what they were, prior to his gaining knowledge about them? Certainly not. As such, don't deride Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Double-standards are ugly.

Doom tried to go for Akhenaten's power, not THOTU. Other than that, you've repeated yourself. Thanos gained THOTU, because TOAA gave it to him intentionally and Thanos used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order. Doom successfully acquired Beyonder's power by confronting him directly. Nobody gave Doom that power.

You haven't given me anything. You act as if your argument is stronger because I'm relying on some premise that you are granting me out of generosity. That's ridiculous. You want to weigh in on our debate, go ahead. Don't act as if you're being magnanimous. Past that, as I said before, Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance. That was the first time he really had acquired power on that vast scale. You've already pointed out Thanos could handle THOTU because of his experience with the Infinity Gauntlet. Why you engage in double-standards is beyond me. You've underestimated Doom. Most people do. Doom has achieved more with less and when playing on a cosmic scale, is just as, if not more so impressive. Nuff said. Feel free to share your own opinions as I do mine, just leave the double-standards out of them. [/B]

Ok,so you want to talk about double standards. Fine,i find it amusing how you want talk about Doom taking Surfer's power cosmic away from him when Surfer willingly gave it to him. Not that impressive when compared to Thanos going out and hunting down the elders one by one. Point Thanos. It isnt like Thanos just convinced them to hand them over,but he to defeat them all in various ways which makes it all that much more impressive.

Doom tried and failed. His plan of attacking Ak directly showed he didnt full understand the situation. He failed. TOAA didnt hand him the power. Thanos still had free will and still took on the power and was imo one of a select few that could handle it.

You keep speculating that Doom could handle it. i dont feel that he could have a second time. Thanos handled the ig and the cosmic cube. He was also able to handle the power in which he sought,while Doom wasnt.

The scans mr m put up with regards to Doom shows how weird the circumstances were with death and all. Doom benefited from this scenario and couldnt have beaten the beyonder in any other situation imo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's all on-panel, and I will show it to you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The issue is decided by the answer to this simple, yet crucial, question, "What is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616-Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

As Reed and Beyonder speak of in their conversations, the reason Beyonder can't kill the one mortal who humiliated him was because 616-Doom had yet to play his part in history. If he was killed there, 616-Doom could never go back to Secret Wars, do the things he did and history wouldn't play out like it was supposed to. This would result in the space-time continuum being torn apart, time being destroyed and even Beyonder himself being destroyed.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's exactly as Reed states. The talk of all this "future Doom" is completely relative. "Future Doom" as Mr Master likes to call him, was actually present 616 Doom from FF #288. He's only "future Doom" in that he is existing in a future relative to Secret Wars.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

616 Doom was the first Doom who defeats Beyonder and later on, Beyonder travels to Earth and sends back 616 Doom to do that. Does that cause a chicken-egg-chicken-egg conundrum? Sure. Like all time travel stories we deal with. But can we truly be 100% absolute sure that Reed is saying exactly what I am saying? Yes. Because Reed also states that the sent back 616-Doom will "begin a cycle that will end with the Beyonder banishing him "across time and space," at the conclusion of the first Secret Wars." That's right, 616-Doom is beginning the cycle. 616-Doom didn't just step into a cycle that was already created by a 212-Doom from some random non-existent future:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's very simple. It's all on-panel.
It's clearly explained by Reed and Beyonder and Dr. Doom.
There is no "212-Doom." He is a fiction. Any talk of "212-Doom" leads up to Reed's and Beyonder's revelation that FF #288 Doom was indeed the same Doom in Secret Wars. He couldn't be killed because he had to be sent back to go through history. He goes through it, performs his greatest feat, and is banished at the end of Secret Wars.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The Beyonder feat is 616-Doom's, Fantastic Four #288 makes that clear.
Secret Wars Doom is, and always was, 616-Doom.