Dr. Doom vs Thanos

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder looks past Doom's mortal body and recognizes Doom as the one who bested him though.
Beyonder wants to kill him, but Reed says he can't. So what gives?

Last two posts: (and the first post on this page)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=491974&pagenumber=5

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Mr Master believes that the original Doom in Secret Wars was not 616-Doom, but some random non-existent schlub Doom from the future, e.g. 212-Doom (completely arbitrary #). Since 616-Doom wasn't in his actual body on the day the rest of the heroes and villains were summoned to Battleworld, Beyonder grabbed one from a future. This 212-Doom is then replaced by 616 Doom in FF #288 and 616 Doom inexorably plays out events.

In fact, I clearly said:

Originally posted by Mr Master

In the same fashion, Secret Wars Doom, was from an "alternate future"
the trick to understand is, it is 616 Doom ... but NOT technically.

All I've ever presented is the fact that,
at the time of Secret Wars I, that Doom was from an alternate Timeline.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

This is untrue. Why?

Future Doom,
like ALL Future-selves of ALL 616 characters,
are exactly the same as their 616 Present-selves.

The only difference, for 616, history is stationed in the Present,
in the entire 616 Universe there is but one planet Earth
in that one planet Earth, it the present day, 2008.

For the Future-self, whether it's a minute or 100 to whatever years into the Future,
in which case let's say it's, 2009, or 2099,
those Time periods apply to a planet Earth,
located in an entire Universe relevant to 2009, or 2099.

Thus another Timeline.

It's cool, once the 616 Universe's planet Earth reaches the year 2009 or 2099,
the Future-Timeline and the 616 Universe diverge into different directions,
thus the Future-Timelne takes off on a History of it's own,
and 616 continues to be the original Timeline.

I presented all the proof in the prior page. 🙂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Now ask yourself this next crucial question... "Why would all that catastrophe happen if there was already a schlub 212-Doom who had acted out those events? Why do we even need 616-Doom? Why would killing 616-Doom in FF #288 do anything except deprive the present of 616-Doom?"

Oh, and you're putting words in my mouth again,
I never demeaned Future Doom's skills.

I don't know where you got this allusion I took em for a schlub,
but let's not get nasty to win over a crowd.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Because there was never a 212-Doom. It was always 616-Doom. That was the paradox. That was why Beyonder could not kill him. If there was some schlub 212-Doom who could adequately play out Secret Wars and keep history intact, 616-Earth wouldn't be in danger of losing it's history. This is clear from the on-panel conversations:

It's still you're 616 self in the Future though, just technically,
you're Future -self is in another TImeline, why? Cause he's in the Future.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

616 Doom never replaced some random 212-Doom. He was only taking his rightful spot in history as the one and only Doom in Secret Wars. As Reed himself clearly states, SW Doom is from: "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to Doctor Doom!"

It's everyone's Future in 616,
just like 616 & Reed's Future will also be the year 3014 when 616 reaches it,
but, if 616 Reed travels to the year 3014, he'll be entering a different Timeline.

Seem that's the bottom line.

Secret Wars I
(at the time it was the Present)
happened almost a year before #288,
(which was the Future, another Timeline at the time)
so when that year came around, #288
(which was the Future, another Timeline)
became the Present
(the 616 Timeline)

The problem is,
when the Present came around, there was no Secret Wars Doom in existence,
cause he was obliterated at the end of Secret Wars I.

Had Secret Wars Doom stayed alive,
then Timestream would have been in NO danger,
because the instant the Time period Beyonder plucked Doom from arrived,
a divergence would've taken place, a split in Reality
where Secret Wars Doom continues into an separate history in an alternate future,
and where 616 Doom, who was in McArthur's body, continues into 616's direct Future.

This is how the whole deal concerning the Future in Marvel Comics works.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Where is he banished to? Right to the very room he was sent from. He even begins materializing before Reed finishes explaining everything to the less-than-intelligent She-Hulk

Also, you missed the part in that scan where Reed clearly differentiates the two:

"The 'BANISHED' Doom may well appear here, now,
to fill the space thus created"

........................................................................................................

Now why do you think Reed labels 616 Doom the "banished" Doom,
insetad of just calling him Doom?

Answer:

Because the original Secret Wars Doom (Future Doom) was obliterated across time & space,
uhh, Reed even states it in the freakin scan,
but the banished Doom (616) never died, in fact, he was never even there originally,
but since he's the template, he can fill in for the original Secret Wars Doom,
play out everything that happened in Secret Wars 1 exactly to the T,
even getting obliterated like the original Secret Wars Doom,
but then like Reed says, to finalize the closing of the circle,
616 Doom (unlike the original Secret Wars Doom who was utterly destroyed)
now has to return to Present, "to fill the space thus created"

What space was that?

The space left by the original Secret Wars Doom (plucked from the Future)
who destroyed before the point from which he was plucked became the Present.

This is why Reed said: "events now in our past, have yet to happen to Doctor Doom"

If it was always Doom 616, then why hasn't he experienced these events?

No need to answer that, I already have. 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Omega was an abandoned experiment but one that showed Thanos' ingenius. While Doom can utilize the power cosmic,Thanos can create powerful clones of himself and an even more powerful version of Galactus. Id say thats much better.

Ok,so you want to talk about double standards. Fine,i find it amusing how you want talk about Doom taking Surfer's power cosmic away from him when Surfer willingly gave it to him. Not that impressive when compared to Thanos going out and hunting down the elders one by one. Point Thanos. It isnt like Thanos just convinced them to hand them over,but he to defeat them all in various ways which makes it all that much more impressive.

Doom tried and failed. His plan of attacking Ak directly showed he didnt full understand the situation. He failed. TOAA didnt hand him the power. Thanos still had free will and still took on the power and was imo one of a select few that could handle it.

You keep speculating that Doom could handle it. i dont feel that he could have a second time. Thanos handled the ig and the cosmic cube. He was also able to handle the power in which he sought,while Doom wasnt.

The scans mr m put up with regards to Doom shows how weird the circumstances were with death and all. Doom benefited from this scenario and couldnt have beaten the beyonder in any other situation imo.

Doom has stolen Silver Surfer's power by force. Silver Surfer willingly gave a Doombot the Power Cosmic in another storyline. You've got the feats mixed up. I didn't use a double-standard.

TOAA gave Thanos the power. There are no ifs, ands or buts about that.

Once my laptop is in order (I just got the power cord today) and I have time this week to download the comic I've been alluding to, I will prove to you that Dr. Doom could handle Beyonder's power, had he a second chance. I don't know why I didn't pull it out for the respect thread I've been creating, but I forgot to. The only power Doom failed to hold onto, was the Beyonder's power. Which is equal to or greater than THOTU. Doom's handled Surfer's power, Galactus' power and the Cosmic Cube. He hasn't had the chance to acquire the Infinity Gauntlet. Although, previews of upcoming comics suggest that he will.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Fantastic Four #288 made it clear that 616 Doom was the only Doom in Secret Wars. Beyonder was prevented from killing Doom then because Doom had yet to partake in Secret Wars in his own linear progression of time. Killing Doom before he could travel back would have destroyed history, the space-time continuum, time itself and destroyed Beyonder. That's why Reed convinced Beyonder not to kill him and that's why it was always 616 Doom. If some schlub 212-Doom had already performed in Secret Wars, there was no reason 616 Doom couldn't have been killed on the spot as revengefor beating him the first time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is why Reed said: "events now in our past, [b]have yet to happen to Doctor Doom"

If it was always Doom 616, then why hasn't he experienced these events?

No need to answer that, I already have. 🙂 [/B]

If 616 Doom was killed right then and there in that room in FF #288, SWII Beyonder would have destroyed history and thus himself. The reason why history would have been destroyed was because 616 Doom was in Secret Wars. If there were a 212-Doom originally, then history had run it's course with 212-Doom already. There was a Doom there. You didn't need 616-Doom. Thus, there would also be no danger to history or the space-time continuum if SWII Beyonder killed 616-Doom in FF #288. But as we cannot deny, there was a danger to history's events, the space-time continuum if 616-Doom were killed. That danger was present, because 616-Doom had to be sent back so that he could play out his own future, which was already their past. This is stated by Reed in plain black and white. Thus, there was never an alternate Doom.

I explained it for everyone else. You refuse to see it my way, that's fine. You can keep your opinion. I recognize that you base it completely on Marvel's psuedo-science alternate universe theory. But I prefer to base my interpretation on primary evidence; on the plain meaning and presentation of Reed and Beyonder's on-panel conversations and actions in Fantastic Four #288.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Splicing such complicated DNA together can surely be thought of as being more complicated than siphoning, isolating or transferring the Power Cosmic. But IMHO, Doom did something that Thanos could not do, no matter how hard he tried. And that was siphoning, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic.

Doom has stolen Silver Surfer's power by force. Silver Surfer willingly gave a Doombot the Power Cosmic in another storyline. You've got the feats mixed up. I didn't use a double-standard.

TOAA gave Thanos the power. There are no ifs, ands or buts about that.

Once my laptop is in order (I just got the power cord today) and I have time this week to download the comic I've been alluding to, I will prove to you that Dr. Doom could handle Beyonder's power, had he a second chance. I don't know why I didn't pull it out for the respect thread I've been creating, but I forgot to. The only power Doom failed to hold onto, was the Beyonder's power. Which is equal to or greater than THOTU. Doom's handled Surfer's power, Galactus' power and the Cosmic Cube. He hasn't had the chance to acquire the Infinity Gauntlet. Although, previews of upcoming comics suggest that he will.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Fantastic Four #288 made it clear that 616 Doom was the only Doom in Secret Wars. Beyonder was prevented from killing Doom then because Doom had yet to partake in Secret Wars in his own linear progression of time. Killing Doom before he could travel back would have destroyed history, the space-time continuum, time itself and destroyed Beyonder. That's why Reed convinced Beyonder not to kill him and that's why it was always 616 Doom. If some schlub 212-Doom had already performed in Secret Wars, there was no reason 616 Doom couldn't have been killed on the spot as revengefor beating him the first time.

I kniw about the doombot one in the surfer comic. I read the real doom taking Surfer's power and wasnt he tricked due to his naivete at the time into trusting Doom. Im pretty sure he was.

No,Thanos still survived and it wasnt handed to him. Anyway you want to look at it though,Thanos was chosen and not Doom. What does that tell you if you believe the TOAA gave it to him and not Victor.

I dont know where you are getting that the beyonder's power is greater or equal to Thanos' heart of the universe. Anyways,Doom hanlded the power cosmic and Galactus' power which is far less than the ig. Thanos' history consists of him finding these power sources and utilizing them first. Its about time Doom gets his hands on the ig. Thanos has already moved on and acquired the most powerful items in the multiverse imo.

I saw mr m's scans I dont know how your still trying to pass it off as Doom when his scans tell an entirely different story. Again if we do give the feat to Doom,he still isnt in Thanos' league.

Doom would never have been able to get all the infinity gems from the elders of the universe the way thanos did.

Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation, Thanos was literally handed THOU...althought Ill still give him credit for the IG capture even if everyone else was acting like ****ing idiots.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation, Thanos was literally handed THOU...althought Ill still give him credit for the IG capture even if everyone else was acting like ****ing idiots.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Doom couldnt handle the beyonder's power while Thanos handled and saved the marvel universe.

Heh. I don't know if this has already been brought up before, because I've only read pages 1, 2, and 7 of this thread - but Thanos runs constant surveillance on Dr. Doom which Doom is obviously completely unaware of (this is shown, for instance, in Marvel: The End). It doesn't matter, then, each of them have two days prep, a week prep, or a year prep - Thanos' plan will always be superior thanks to his more advanced tech and his insider advantage which his spying gives him.

Thanos wins this, every single time.

On a side note, Mr. M debates the coolest way possible - with lots and lots of scannage. 😄

Originally posted by The Great Galen

Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation

1. The reason he didn't die after his battle with the Beyonder,
is cause the Concept of Death was warped on Battleworld:

"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder.
But Death,
we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home"

...........................................................................

2. The reason Doom is able to get close to the Beyonder in this stomped state,
is cause Beyonder was intricately studying his body with its torn limbs:

(I mean he's being dissected, half his body is being peeled by layers,
he was already missing one arm, one leg, other forearm, other chin)

Yet, he's still alive? ... 😂 ... like I said, surrounded by stipulations.

...........................................................................

3.We later learn from Beyonder's own mouth,
he was actually trying to help Doom at this point,
this is when Doom pulled out this monster PIS feat.

Originally posted by The Great Galen

Thanos was literally handed THOU

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doom accomplished his feat, because he was surrounded by stipulations.

1. The reason he didn't die after his battle with the Beyonder,
is cause the Concept of Death was warped on Battleworld:

"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder.
[b]But Death,
we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home/"

...........................................................................

2. The reason Doom is able to get close to the Beyonder in this stomped state,
is cause Beyonder was intricately studying his body with its torn limbs:

3.We later learn from Beyonder's own mouth,
he was actually trying to help Doom at this point,
this is when Doom pulled out this monster PIS feat.

That's literally not true. [/B]

Originally posted by Enyalus

Thanos runs constant surveillance on Dr. Doom
which Doom is obviously completely unaware of
(this is shown, for instance, in Marvel: The End).

It doesn't matter, then,
each of them have two days prep, a week prep, or a year prep -
Thanos' plan will always be superior thanks to his more advanced tech
and his insider advantage which his spying gives him.

Thanos watching Doom spy on Akhenaten:

Doom notices Thanos's cam spying on Akhenaten,
Doom doesn't know who it belongs to,
but he does know it's more sophisticated than his tech:

Originally posted by Enyalus

Thanos wins this, every single time.

I also went over my Secret Wars I issues where Doom acquires the power,
Doom never had any relevant control,
he had to continuously concentrate on containing the energies,
imo, that's a very uncomfortable predicament of Godhood.

Originally posted by Enyalus

On a side note,

Mr. M debates the coolest way possible - with lots and lots of scannage.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doom notices Thanos's cam spying on Akhenaten,
Doom doesn't know who it belongs to,
but he does know it's more sophisticated than his tech:

So... Doom sees another miniature spy camera and thinks it's more sophisticated, why? Because it doesn't have fins on it?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So... Doom sees another miniature spy camera and thinks it's more sophisticated, why? Because it doesn't have fins on it?

It ran on windows vista without lagging.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dude,he created a more powerful version of Galactus. Thats better than isolating the power cosmic. Thanos coul dhave b een able to do this as well,but he abandoned his efforts the moment he figured out Annihilus' true intentions. Omega>power cosmic by leaps and bounds. Thanos clones>power cosmic as well imo.

I kniw about the doombot one in the surfer comic. I read the real doom taking Surfer's power and wasnt he tricked due to his naivete at the time into trusting Doom. Im pretty sure he was.

No,Thanos still survived and it wasnt handed to him. Anyway you want to look at it though,Thanos was chosen and not Doom. What does that tell you if you believe the TOAA gave it to him and not Victor.

I dont know where you are getting that the beyonder's power is greater or equal to Thanos' heart of the universe. Anyways,Doom hanlded the power cosmic and Galactus' power which is far less than the ig. Thanos' history consists of him finding these power sources and utilizing them first. Its about time Doom gets his hands on the ig. Thanos has already moved on and acquired the most powerful items in the multiverse imo.

I saw mr m's scans I dont know how your still trying to pass it off as Doom when his scans tell an entirely different story. Again if we do give the feat to Doom,he still isnt in Thanos' league.

Silver Surfer never gave Doom his power. Doom stole it from him.

Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. He himself states this. Ignoring that basic truth of the story makes any further argumentation of yours moot.

Most, if not nearly all posters believe that pre-retcon Beyonder is equal to or superior to THOTU. Go to the Beyonder vs THOTU threads. Don't waste my time by feigning further ignorance.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Just because Mr Master weighed in, left and said he didn't care and then quad posted again in response to my posts means nothing. He is utterly wrong. It's plain as day in the full page scan I posted. Reed explains it. I don't cut up pages to interrupt the panel flow of a conversation that takes you step-by-step as to why SWII Beyonder couldn't kill 616-Doom (who hadn't met him yet) because it would have destroyed history, time and Beyonder. You're ignoring the clear, plain presentation of that and hiding behind a wrong theory because I've put you in that corner and you can't concede this simple point: "When Doom plays on the cosmic scale, he is arguably equal to or superior to Thanos in terms of pure feats."

You underestimated Doom. Most people make that mistake. Nothing to get in a twist about. But you did. Just move on. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So... Doom sees another miniature spy camera and thinks it's more sophisticated, why? Because it doesn't have fins on it?

If Thanos had really sophisticated spy tech Doom wouldn't have even spotted it. I mean Thanos has his pick of some of the most advanced alien tech from all over the universe and that's the best spy device he can come up with? I could buy him a less obvious kit on the internet. OK maybe it wouldn't fly.

I'm not sure any of it matters anyway since Marvel specifically stated this all this and Thanos getting the HOTI happened on Earth-4321 and not Earth-616.