Revan, Kreia, and Malak vs Any Two

Obviously he was second to Revan. A distant second. And The Sith Triumvirate wasn't around when Revan and Malak were Sith Lords, hence, they had no competition.

Plus, since Revan's skills and powers are unknown, saying Malak is a distant second makes him even weaker.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Malak is not given enough credit around here. It is a shame and not fair since his opponent was Revan. I believe Malak was truly second to Revan when it came to power and skill. I guess we won't know until there is some specific information about the Kotor crew.

Like Qordis sounded when he spoke to and about Bane? 😛

Iunno, never read any Bane paraphenalia.

LOTF Luke and Zonamma Sekot. And some other duos that are not as ridiculously powerful but still up there.

Kreia and Revan are formiddable opponents, and Malak is decently powerful as well, so they arent going to go down easily.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Obviously he was second to Revan. A distant second. And The Sith Triumvirate wasn't around when Revan and Malak were Sith Lords, hence, they had no competition.

Plus, since Revan's skills and powers are unknown, saying Malak is a distant second makes him even weaker.

We really do not know how distant they were in terms of power. It could have been similar to Sidious and Vader difference in power. Either way the distance was not great enough for anyone else to defeat Malak.

Basicly Enaylus my point of view holds Malak as second to Revan for the Kotor era. Nihilus special technique undoubtedly makes him powerful but I do not see him over Malak.

Anyway Enyalus Nihilus and Bane were a good pair to put against the trio.

How about Bane and Dooku?

Originally posted by KOTOR3
We really do not know how distant they were in terms of power. It could have been similar to Sidious and Vader difference in power. Either way the distance was not great enough for anyone else to defeat Malak.

Well, that difference was 20% (Vader was 80% as powerful as Sidious). 1/5th. That's relatively considerable. Combine that with the fact that Revan isn't the most powerful Sith Lord, and probably not even in the top three, and ta da...

Nihilus special technique undoubtedly makes him powerful but I do not see him over Malak.

Not only his special technique but his unique nature. But that isn't like that's the only reason he's a powerful Sith lord. His massive TK abilities, outclassing anything Malak or anyone else has shown, and mastery of Force Stasis are a few more reasons. There's no reason to assume he can't simply freeze all three in place while he and Bane walk over and kill them, as well. Furthermore, even though he doesn't show it, it's almost a given that Nihilus knows Force Lightning. It was one of the basic techniques taught at the Academy on Korriban, and more than likely taught at Malachor.

What techniques or power does Malak display that give you such a great impression of him? I'd also like to see some feats prior to his Star Forge time. He seems like a very average Jedi Knight who was captured and tortured by Demagol, one of the Mandalorian scientists.

How about Bane and Dooku?

If this were sabers only, absolutely. But Dooku's lightning is pathetic and his TK finesse won't do him any good against Traya or Revan. If Bane can't be severed from the Force by Traya, I'd almost say he can solo. 😛 ....Almost.

Originally posted by Enyalus

If this were sabers only, absolutely. But Dooku's lightning is pathetic and his TK finesse won't do him any good against Traya or Revan. If Bane can't be severed from the Force by Traya, I'd almost say he can solo. 😛 ....Almost. [/B]

Nah I really doubt it. Bane learned alot of what he knew from Revans teachings and pretty much worshipped him so it wouldnt make sense that Bane would even defeat Revan alone. Throw in Malak and Revans master and Bane pretty much gets owned.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nah I really doubt it. Bane learned alot of what he knew from Revans teachings and pretty much worshipped him so it wouldnt make sense that Bane would even defeat Revan alone. Throw in Malak and Revans master and Bane pretty much gets owned.

Bane was a student of history and looked towards Revan's philosophy of what the Sith should be to found his order. To the Sith, the apprentice should always surpass the master. Which by all evidence, Bane did. 'Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead,' and 'One to embody the power, the other to crave it' are two of Revan's tenets that Bane took to heart.

Moreover, Bane has access to all of Darth Revan's knowledge plus two more Sith holocrons, combined with orbalisks and being empowered by the Star Forge.

While I don't see him soloing, obviously, I think this is one of those "its closer than the experts think" kind of things.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Bane was a student of history and looked towards Revan's philosophy of what the Sith should be to found his order. To the Sith, the apprentice should always surpass the master. Which by all evidence, Bane did. 'Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead,' and 'One to embody the power, the other to crave it' are two of Revan's tenets that Bane took to heart.

Moreover, Bane has access to all of Darth Revan's knowledge plus two more Sith holocrons, combined with orbalisks and being empowered by the Star Forge.

While I don't see him soloing, obviously, I think this is one of those "its closer than the experts think" kind of things.

Yes Bane learned his ideals from Revan along with much of his knowledge. Whats your point? (not trying to be rude here but if you were making a point I missed it entirely). Bane still worshipped Revan, calling him a true master of the dark side. And its unlikely Revan would impart all his knowledge in that one holocron, nor is it likely IMO that Bane could use those techniques to the same extent that Revan could though I admit there is no real proof either way. And Revan would have access to the Star Forge also in this fight along with his allies so that point is irrelevent.

I could maybe see Revan vs Bane being a good fight in the absence of real evidence to the contrary, but Bane soloing everyone is really pushing it. It seems your in agreement with this, so yeah.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Well, that difference was 20% (Vader was 80% as powerful as Sidious). 1/5th. That's relatively considerable. Combine that with the fact that Revan isn't the most powerful Sith Lord, and probably not even in the top three, and ta da...[/B]

While I respect your opinion I definitely do not agree. Your top three you are undoubtedly referring to.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Not only his special technique but his unique nature. But that isn't like that's the only reason he's a powerful Sith lord. His massive TK abilities, outclassing anything Malak or anyone else has shown, and mastery of Force Stasis are a few more reasons. There's no reason to assume he can't simply freeze all three in place while he and Bane walk over and kill them, as well. Furthermore, even though he doesn't show it, it's almost a given that Nihilus knows Force Lightning. It was one of the basic techniques taught at the Academy on Korriban, and more than likely taught at Malachor....[/B]

I can also speculate that Revan knew force drain well as his student Malak and Kreia. I believe he does. Nihilus knowing force lightning maybe. Even if he does that does not mean he could block force lightning from two people at the same time.

Freeze all three, I doubt that very much. Since Kotor I does not mention many feats for Revan and Malak (particuarly Malak) all I can say is that everyone including Kreia view them as the top dogs.

Originally posted by Enyalus

What techniques or power does Malak display that give you such a great impression of him? I'd also like to see some feats prior to his Star Forge time. He seems like a very average Jedi Knight who was captured and tortured by Demagol, one of the Mandalorian scientists.[/B]

I could say what he did on the Leviathan but as I said earlier not that much to say in terms of feats. Only statements about his abilites and characteristics.

What GV said about Bane I agree if Revan and Malak fought Bane together. One on one is up for opinion.

My main point was that while Bane respected Revan, worshipping him is definitely not the right word I would use. In Revan, he saw the way a true Sith Lord should behave, as opposed to the corrupt and watered down teachings of the academy. So, I would say that Bane saw him as more of a model than anything else. And once he's destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness and understands who he is, there's no evidence to think that Bane even gives a second thought to Revan or what he would do.

Besides the holocron, Revan authored at least one book on the Dark Side, which Bane also read at the Academy. So...

And since Revan is an unknown, Bane would win the match 10/10 times unless the fanboys come into play. 😉

But anywho, I do agree Bane would lose in a solo battle. Traya wields four lightsabers and might even be able to sever him, and Revan's a great lightsaber combatant. No way Bane gets it done. When I said 'almost' I was somewhat teasing (hence the emoticon). I also don't think Dooku and Bane as a duo would cut it.

EDIT:

Originally posted by KOTOR3
While I respect your opinion I definitely do not agree. Your top three you are undoubtedly referring to.

1) Darth Sidious as number one, which is canon.
2) Darth Nihilus as number two, due to his ability to kill an entire world of Force-sensitives and numerous Jedi at the same time. Also, his Force prowess was so great that he could simultaneously sense every Force-user in the galaxy.
3) Darth Bane at his peak, until we know more about Revan. Considering Bane had all of Revan's knowledge plus much more, and Dark Side boost from his armor, he gets my nod.

My fourth choice would probably be Vader. Again, until we know more about Revan.

Originally posted by Enyalus
My main point was that while Bane respected Revan, worshipping him is definitely not the right word I would use. In Revan, he saw the way a true Sith Lord should behave, as opposed to the corrupt and watered down teachings of the academy. So, I would say that Bane saw him as more of a model than anything else. And once he's destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness and understands who he is, there's no evidence to think that Bane even gives a second thought to Revan or what he would do.

Besides the holocron, Revan authored at least one book on the Dark Side, which Bane also read at the Academy. So...

And since Revan is an unknown, Bane would win the match 10/10 times unless the fanboys come into play. 😉

There were techniques that Bane was scared to try that Revan knew. Yes Bane looked at Revan as a Model for all sith to follow but he also recognize Revan to be a very powerful Sith Lord.

I doubt the person whom Bane followed as a model was fogotten by him after the destruction of the Brotherhood of Darkness. Enyalus all we have to do is pull up the numerous Bane vs Revan threads. There are plenty of good arguments for both sides. To say who would win is not being a fanboy but a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Enyalus

But anywho, I do agree Bane would lose in a solo battle. Traya wields four lightsabers and might even be able to sever him, and Revan's a great lightsaber combatant. No way Bane gets it done. When I said 'almost' I was somewhat teasing (hence the emoticon). I also don't think Dooku and Bane as a duo would cut it.

EDIT:

1) Darth Sidious as number one, which is canon.
2) Darth Nihilus as number two, due to his ability to kill an entire world of Force-sensitives and numerous Jedi at the same time. Also, his Force prowess was so great that he could simultaneously sense every Force-user in the galaxy.
3) Darth Bane at his peak, until we know more about Revan. Considering Bane had all of Revan's knowledge plus much more, and Dark Side boost from his armor, he gets my nod.

My fourth choice would probably be Vader. Again, until we know more about Revan. [/B]

One thing we do know you are not a Revan fan. I have no problem admitting that I am. My list would include Revan in the top three. Nihilus as I stated before has a powerful technique but I do not know if he belongs in the top three. My opinion.

I am very busy so my responses will be space out.

Originally posted by KOTOR3
Enyalus all we have to do is pull up the numerous Bane vs Revan threads. There are plenty of good arguments for both sides. To say who would win is not being a fanboy but a matter of opinion.

Yeah, it pretty much is. How does one decide who would win in a contest of two combatants? They debate each person's skills, techniques, cunning, etc - see how they compare, and then arrive and what we hope will be a sound conclusion. Revan's skills and techniques aren't known. All we have is speculation.

I could pit Revan vs. Bergruutfa Clan (a group of Jedi younglings), say the team wins, and you wouldn't - logically - be able to refute it.
I wouldn't do that. No worries ; )

One thing we do know you are not a Revan fan. I have no problem admitting that I am.

Not true. I'm a fan of any great strategist. From Revan to Thrawn to Shedao to Pellaeon. And based on his philosophies, especially as Darth Revan - he seems very cool. But I'm not going to freely call him one of the greatest Sith Lords ever, because there isn't any evidence to suggest it.

My list would include Revan in the top three.

Based on what?

Once again enyalus, substantiate what is nihilus "massive TK", where did he demonstrated this "massive TK"?

And please don't ramble that nihilus could sense every force user in the galaxy when vader in the rise and fall of darth vader could do the same, just that he made a galaxy wide scan.

Oh and to refute that nihilus "could see every force user in the galaxy", why couldn't he see vrook? Why couldn't he see kavar? Why couldn't he see zez kai ell? Why couldn't he see lonna vash? master atris?

And to being a quote to trash that statement, visas stated : he does not see people, but planets and stars

Nihilus shouldn't really be considered in lists of "most powerful" and such. He's more presence than personality, and essentially a destructive, ravenous force of nature with no real goals or objectives. He simply exists, and as Visas put it, is literally "the darkness in which all things die." Palpatine was powerful, but he had ambition, he had emotion. He was a consummate strategist and pretty much played chess with the galaxy. Nihilus, has no such drive. He isn't exactly "evil," as the aforementioned Sith Lord most undoubtedly is, so much as chaos given form.

And in light of recent evidence, I can't even really see myself making an agreeable "top three" list. The mightiest of the ancient Sith were held in a form of admiration by even Palpatine, who mused in RoDV that the most powerful of them had understand the much sought-after power to stave off death. We've seen Simus do it, Bane notes that "[Sadow's] power was so great" he lived for six hundred years on Yavin before being murdered by Nadd, and Ragnos was - and I quote - "the most powerful of the most powerful... the Dark Lord of the Sith." High praise.

Then of course there's Freedon Nadd. Having absorbed "all of [Sadow's] teachings," he then promptly killed him. His body, like Palpatine's, was warped by the power he wielded, and interestingly Bane notes that this isn't a unique phenomenon.

So, I think these guys need to be re-evaluated.

If only someone had made a thread for just that purpose...

*******.

😐

You are a funny one.

Originally posted by Schwarz
Once again enyalus, substantiate what is nihilus "massive TK", where did he demonstrated this "massive TK"?

Pulling his capital ship out of the gravity well on Malachor V with the Force, while holding it together with the Force. I don't care whether or not you discredit it - it was quoted as a feat by more than just Tobin.

And please don't ramble that nihilus could sense every force user in the galaxy when vader in the rise and fall of darth vader could do the same, just that he made a galaxy wide scan.

Okay...? I'm supposed to not consider Nihilus powerful because Darth Vader did the same?? Vader was powerful, without question. Luke Skywalker has also done it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Nihilus shouldn't really be considered in lists of "most powerful" and such. He's more presence than personality, and essentially a destructive, ravenous force of nature with no real goals or objectives. He simply exists, and as Visas put it, is literally "the darkness in which all things die." Palpatine was powerful, but he had ambition, he had emotion. He was a consummate strategist and pretty much played chess with the galaxy. Nihilus, has no such drive. He isn't exactly "evil," as the aforementioned Sith Lord most undoubtedly is, so much as chaos given form.

Nihilus was a nihilist. 😛 That's his personality. I like that he wasn't the typical Sith, dominate-the-galaxy stereotypical evil.

And in light of recent evidence, I can't even really see myself making an agreeable "top three" list. The mightiest of the ancient Sith were held in a form of admiration by even Palpatine, who mused in RoDV that the most powerful of them had understand the much sought-after power to stave off death. We've seen Simus do it, Bane notes that "[Sadow's] power was so great" he lived for six hundred years on Yavin before being murdered by Nadd, and Ragnos was - and I quote - "the most powerful of the most powerful... the Dark Lord of the Sith." High praise.

True. I hesistated to make that top three, but Ragnos and many others are too unknown. As far as Simus, he couldn't even move himself, having to be carried around. And wasn't he killed by a blaster by one of Sadow's troops, IIRC?

Do you remember who said that quote regarding Ragnos? Was it Ludo Kressh?

Then of course there's Freedon Nadd. Having absorbed "all of [Sadow's] teachings," he then promptly killed him. His body, like Palpatine's, was warped by the power he wielded, and interestingly Bane notes that this isn't a unique phenomenon.

Yeah, but Nadd dispatched Sadow rather easily. And then Nadd, who was supposed to be such a badass, has his spirit destroyed by a novice Dark Sider Kun even easier. Because of such things, it makes me view their accomplishments in a more critical light.

So, I think these guys need to be re-evaluated.

I agree. I'm looking forward to Project Holocron's continuing success.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, I'm a Darth Nihilus fanboy.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pulling his capital ship out of the gravity well on Malachor V with the Force, while holding it together with the Force. I don't care whether or not you discredit it - it was quoted as a feat by more than just Tobin.

Nihilus was a nihilist. 😛 That's his personality. I like that he wasn't the typical Sith, dominate-the-galaxy stereotypical evil.

True. I hesistated to make that top three, but Ragnos and many others are too unknown. As far as Simus, he couldn't even move himself, having to be carried around. And wasn't he killed by a blaster by one of Sadow's troops, IIRC?

Do you remember who said that quote regarding Ragnos? Was it Ludo Kressh?

Yeah, but Nadd dispatched Sadow rather easily.

And then Nadd, who was supposed to be such a badass, has his spirit destroyed by a novice Dark Sider Kun even easier. Because of such things, it makes me view their accomplishments in a more critical light.