2Pac vs. Biggie

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

I really don't think that freestyling should be in that list. Also, going by your list, I think that MF Doom should be considered leagues above Biggie and Tupac.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

lol

good luck with that then

how does one quantify the level of flow in a rap song? what is the scale? what are the specific qualities of spoken word that make it flow as opposed to just talking?

People have tried to do this, with almost no success, in many other art forms. It is, imho, impossible to quantify these qualitative things.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

Ah the complex science of Hip-Hop...

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I really don't think that freestyling should be in that list.

Its not an essential part of being a rapper but it makes you a better rapper. Its a respected skill. Its like a slam dunk. You don't need to do it but it likes the cherry on the icing.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

Also, going by your list, I think that MF Doom should be considered leagues above Biggie and Tupac.

To be fair ive never heard any MF Doom. I used to listen to alot of hip hop but not now.

Been a while since I listened to hip-hop music because all the stuff out now is plastic garbage, but the debate is one of hip-hop's biggest.

Biggie was great lyrically and he had alot of skill. But I rarely heard him touch on social issues or even have heart and depth when doing a "regular rap."

"My murderous lyrics equipped with spirits of the Thugs before me
Pay off the block evade the cops cause I know they comin for me
I been hesitant to reappear, been away for years
Now I'm back, my adversaries been reduced to tears
Question my methods to switch up speeds, sure as some b!tches bleeds
niggaz'll feel the fire of my mother's corrupted seed
Blast me but they didn't finish
didn't diminish my powers
so now I'm back to be a motherf*ckin menace, they cowards
That's why they tried to set me up
Had b!tch-@ss niggaz on my team, so indeed, they wet me up
But I'm back reincarnated, incarcerated
At the time I contemplate the way that God made it
Lace em with lyrics that's legendary, musical mercenary
For money, I'll have these motherf*ckers buried (I been)
gettin much mail in jail, niggaz tellin me to kill it
Knowin when I get out, they gon' feel it
Witness the realest, a who-ridah when I put the sh!t inside
the cry from all your people when they find her
Just remind ya, my history'll prove I been it
Revenge on them niggaz that played me,
and all the cowards that was down widdit
Now it's yo' nigga right beside ya
Hopin you listenin, catch you payin attention
to my ambitions as a ridah"

Tupac FTW.

I think they're both overrated, but "overrated" doesn't mean they're bad or that they sucked. They were both excellent rappers, and they're overrated in the sense that everyone and their mom automatically gives them respect by just hearing their names. I've never really cared for Biggie, but I've been a massive Pac fan since 2Pacalypse Now! dropped in '91, and I went to a concert of his in '95. What I love about Tupac is is his commanding voice, strongly West Coast beats, and his subject matter; things I can relate to in every way. As for Biggie, I really just didn't like what he talked about. "Juicy" and "Big Poppa" are catchy songs and good for parties, but in both he's basically just saying how cool he is. His one song that I really like though is "1970 Something".

Originally posted by inimalist

how does one quantify the level of flow in a rap song? what is the scale? what are the specific qualities of spoken word that make it flow as opposed to just talking?

I know from personal exprience its not just talking because when I first started rapping I became a laughing stock because everybody who heard my verses knew that it didn't flow...EVERYBODY. So I had to start listening to the music I started listening to the music and placing my words into the music.

The most important part of trying to flow is listening to the drumbeat. When you are creating a verse its like you can only fit in a certain amounts of words between a drumbeat, if you go over the limit then it starts to sound funny. Also the speed of the drumbeat can affect the length of your verse.

Ironically enough the better you are at rapping the more you sound like you are talking and some of the best rappers can rap without rhyming, when you first start out its very diffcult to do

Originally posted by inimalist

People have tried to do this, with almost no success, in many other art forms. It is, imho, impossible to quantify these qualitative things.

Obvosuly there is a level of subjectivity with this but thats with everything but like all skills there are basics you have to master. Its a bit hard to explain because I ahvent written verses in YEARS but when I was writing rhymes there was a structure that you had to adhere to to make it sound right.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
To be fair ive never heard any MF Doom. I used to listen to alot of hip hop but not now.

He's definitely worth checking out. I have Dangerdoom on the brain at the moment (Mf Doom and Danger Mouse's collaboration).

But yeah, Doom's flow is just awesome.

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Originally posted by chillmeistergen
He's definitely worth checking out. I have Dangerdoom on the brain at the moment (Mf Doom and Danger Mouse's collaboration).

To tell you the truth mate I just don't feel about it the way I used to, but you I intend to get back into some day I had alot of talent but never took it to its full extent... *sniff*

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

But yeah, Doom's flow is just awesome.

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You don't have to know how to rap to appreciate flow but when you do you see it in a whole different light ( but maybe the reason why I was obessesed by it was because I was particularly bad at it...lol edit: was bad at it when i first started and had to work real hard to get it up to scratch). Yeah but flow is one of the best joys of listening to hip hop, when I first heard GZA rap I thought it was a miracle...lol.

edit: Yeah I heard some of it....thats exactly what the **** im talking about.

Wu-tang all them fools can rap, also its not what you say its how you say it like ol'dirty basted is one of my faviote rappers just cuz how he spits. And 2pac vs biggie the papers and sh** blew that up it was a beef between a few people not east vs west.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I don't care about either of them- they didn't achieve very much if you ask me...nothing that will be remembered in a few hundred years.

😂
yeah, but neither does 98% of the human race

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
Tupac was a ghetto prophet, a ghetto poverty. He wasn't fake and spoke the truth. He was a man with flaws like anyone else. But he spoke out on issues no one else would touch. Brenda had a baby, Thugz Mansion, Changes(how nothing will ever change in the ghetto and its a system) . It's all so ****ing real. As real as real is.

Watch this video its about him giving a speech and then he whores everyone at the press conference, its really quite brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhC_s20LUk0

He wasn't liked today's rappers it wasn't about keeping an image. He was just doing him.

Him and Big left the model for future rappers to fill. even if they are doing it fake.

Ummm, Tupac got "caught up" so to speak but he was just a regular dude. He never sold dope and he wasn't into actual thug appeal until well after his career began.

How you even seen Tupac Resurrection (movie)? Even seeing that will explain that it was mostly an image he portrayed.

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
i weren't saying they were nice, i was saying they were real. Both of them were ****ing murderers, and if they hadn't done it first hand they were atleast involved enough to be responsible.

Tupac knew how to keep a sense of humor despite how harsh shit was.

They were murderers? WTF are you talking? 😆 He's like the hip hop JIA.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know from personal exprience its not just talking because when I first started rapping I became a laughing stock because everybody who heard my verses knew that it didn't flow...EVERYBODY. So I had to start listening to the music I started listening to the music and placing my words into the music.

The most important part of trying to flow is listening to the drumbeat. When you are creating a verse its like you can only fit in a certain amounts of words between a drumbeat, if you go over the limit then it starts to sound funny. Also the speed of the drumbeat can affect the length of your verse.

Ironically enough the better you are at rapping the more you sound like you are talking and some of the best rappers can rap without rhyming, when you first start out its very diffcult to do

Obvosuly there is a level of subjectivity with this but thats with everything but like all skills there are basics you have to master. Its a bit hard to explain because I ahvent written verses in YEARS but when I was writing rhymes there was a structure that you had to adhere to to make it sound right.

I mostly agree with this but I'm too lazy to nitpick right now

i think in terms of hype and influence the pac vs big beef was the biggest beef hip hop will ever see.

as far as who's the better rapper, biggie every day for me. tupac had some songs i like but overall he couldn't hold it down like big, and sure as hell couldn't make an album like him.

but biggie couldn't have won the beef. he didn't even really get a proper chance to respond.

but in terms of the best rap beef, i.e. rappers genuinely trying to lyrically decapitate eachother, it's nas vs jay any day for me. i mean when you get down to it biggie never really released a genuine response track to 'hit em up.' there was of course 'long kiss goodnight' which seems to point to a tupac diss track, but again he never once mentioned pac's name once and it was also released after pac's death, i believe. the fact that it was post-mortem might've caused him to revise it and remove pac's name,but then you have to think if he did that out of respect he'd have just removed the track altogether. not like the double album was at all short on general threats to un-named thugs. not that i have any problem with that..

my opinion is despite popular opinion jay won the nas/jay beef lyrically. nas seemed to have the support of the fans so that's how it goes, as far as the record goes nas won the beef. i could see how it could go either way, and i liked 'last real nigga alive,' but as far as i'm concerned jay's song 'blueprint 2' put a nail in that beef's coffin.

Also biggie put out who shoot yah song, as for the jay/nas beef jay was getting him at first but then nas drop eather and it was over.

just now read the actual thread beyond page 1

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

no, there is no objective criteria for ranking rap skill.

the fact that people seem to think there is a fool proof method of making quality rap is what seems to be holding back most of today's lyrically inclined aspiring artists cause they can't make it past redundant mixtape raps. the guys who don't give a **** about hip hop convention or lyricism are the ones blowing up cause they just make whatever sells. earlier artists were good at finding a balance, i.e. inserting impressive lyricism or flow into songs that SOUND GOOD and that people actually WANT TO HEAR. there are still a few doing so but not nearly enough.

if people didn't like you're flow what they are essentially saying is they didn't think you sounded very good, which is a subjective statement.

Originally posted by zbucsz
Also biggie put out who shoot yah song, as for the jay/nas beef jay was getting him at first but then nas drop eather and it was over.

and it wasn't over after ether. jay responed again with blueprint 2, and nas responded to that with another track, last real nigga alive. if nas felt the need to respond it couldn't have been over.

besides that, ether was a hot track, but jay went harder at him with takeover than nas did with ether. jay got way mre personal. nas dised jay-z's record label's name, his looks, him being in a karate cass, etc. jay shitted on nas's whole career, then threw in the fact that he ****ed his baby's mama, which was verified fact. game over as far as im concerned, but then after nas responded with ether, jay came back with blueprint 2 and focused more on nas being a fake revolutionary with inconsistent claims about his life and philosophies.

"Can't y'all, see that he's fake, the rap version of TD jakes
Prophesizing on your CDs and tapes
Won't break you a crumb of the little bit that he makes
And this is with whom you want to place your faith?
I put dollars on mine, ask Columbine
When the Twin Towers dropped, I was the first in line
Donating proceeds off every ticket sold
When I was out on the road, that's how you judge Hov, no?
Ain't I supposed to be absorbed myself?
Every time there's a tragedy, I'm the first one to help
They call me this misogynist, but they don't call me the dude
To take his dollars to give gifts at the projects
These dudes is all politics, depositing checks
they put in they pocket, all you get in return is a lot of lip
And y'all buy the shit, caught up in the hype
Cause the nigga wear a coofie, it don't mean that he bright
Cause you don't understand him, it don't mean that he nice
It just means you don't understand all the bullshit that he write
Is it "Oochie Wally Wally" or is it "One Mic"?
Is it "Black Girl Lost" or shorty owe you for ice?
I've been real all my life, they confuse it with conceit
Since I will not lose, they try to help him cheat
But I will not lose, for even in defeat
There's a valuable lesson learned, so it evens it up for me
When the grass is cut, the snakes will show
I gotta thank the little homie Nas for that though
Saving me the hassle of speaking to half of these assholes
And I'ma let karma catch up to Jaz-O, whoa
I'm back before you had a chance to miss me
My mama can't save you this time, niggas is history
Who you know flow vicious as me?
Yet so religiously, that's why they call me Hov
I get the spoils cause the victor is me (me, nigga)
You're an actor, you're not who you're depicted to be
You street dreamin, all y'all niggas living through me
I gave you life when niggas was forgetting you emcee
I'm a legend, you should take a picture with me
You should be happy to be in my presence, I should charge you a fee
I'm Big Dog, Glenn Rob, listen God you a flea
And the little homey Jungle is a garden to me
What's the problem B? You not as hard as me
Nigga hard as we, nigga R O C, nigga
That's why they follow me, they feel my pain and my agony, nigga
I won't rest till you on one knee
You want war then it's war's gonna be, nigga
Until you on one knee, you want war then it's war's gonna be, nigga
"

jay killed him with that shit. then nas came back with last real nigga alive which was a hot song but didn't really go at jay that hard.. mostly explained the circumstances and all that shit, talking about how when jay dissed him nas's mom was dieing.

Sadly, no one even understands what Jay was saying about Nas' career on anything of the songs. All they heard was Nas' name calling and he won based on that.

Originally posted by red g jacks
just now read the actual thread beyond page 1 i hear this way too often.

no, there is no objective criteria for ranking rap skill.

the fact that people seem to think there is a fool proof method of making quality rap is what seems to be holding back most of today's lyrically inclined aspiring artists cause they can't make it past redundant mixtape raps. the guys who don't give a **** about hip hop convention or lyricism are the ones blowing up cause they just make whatever sells. earlier artists were good at finding a balance, i.e. inserting impressive lyricism or flow into songs that SOUND GOOD and that people actually WANT TO HEAR. there are still a few doing so but not nearly enough.

I disagree to an extent. Rap is a skill that is learnt and like any other skill there are things you need to master in order to do it properly. If it is a skill then there is some objectvity to it. If we want to take it to extremes we could say everything is subjective.

Originally posted by red g jacks

if people didn't like you're flow what they are essentially saying is they didn't think you sounded very good, which is a subjective statement.

Im not saying that though. Im able to identify rappers that I don't like but I can recognise their skill, also there are some rappers that I like but I know are not very good eg Bone Thugs and Harmony they have a nice flow but thats it.

I don't know about you but I thought Common Senses flow was quite complicated I couldn't write rhymes like that and make it flow. Lets make a comparison. Lets compare Common Senses flow to Inspector Decks. ID (Inspector Deck) has a nice flow but since CS (Common Sense) flow is more complicated and unpredictable I would say in the flow department he is a better rapper. It has nothing to do with what I like I recognise the diffiuclty of what CS is doing and therefore I recognise his skill.

Lets take metaphor and similies. I'll agree that to an extent this is subjective but if you've heard Liquid Swords you will know that this was packed with some nice lyrics compare that to ....Puff Daddy. Now why for the love of god would I put Puff Daddy on the same level as GZA? Doesn't it to take imagination and hard work to create similies and wordplay? Why would I put a rapper who has mad similies and metaphors on the same level to somebody who has none?

I would also say that GZA in the metaphor and similie department is a better rapper than Meth. Ok you say that there is no objectivity but I could have sworn that Meth was using the same lyrics again. I dunno about you but if you lack imagination and you keep repeating lyrics then thats a minus.

I don't think freestyling is an essential part of being a good rapper but obvoulsy since its hard to do we recognise and respect it. If we were trying to score points for rappers a freestyling rapper would get a plus.

Originally posted by chithappens
Sadly, no one even understands what Jay was saying about Nas' career on anything of the songs. All they heard was Nas' name calling and he won based on that.

Last time I was into rap was 98 but as far as I know Nas has been going downhill from Illimatic. I find him very irritating.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I disagree to an extent. Rap is a skill that is learnt and like any other skill there are things you need to master in order to do it properly. If it is a skill then there is some objectvity to it. If we want to take it to extremes we could say everything is subjective.

Im not saying that though. Im able to identify rappers that I don't like but I can recognise their skill, also there are some rappers that I like but I know are not very good eg Bone Thugs and Harmony they have a nice flow but thats it.

I don't know about you but I thought Common Senses flow was quite complicated I couldn't write rhymes like that and make it flow. Lets make a comparison. Lets compare Common Senses flow to Inspector Decks. ID (Inspector Deck) has a nice flow but since CS (Common Sense) flow is more complicated and unpredictable I would say in the flow department he is a better rapper. It has nothing to do with what I like I recognise the diffiuclty of what CS is doing and therefore I recognise his skill.

i personally feel that flow is a means to an ends - the ends being good sounding rap music. the better the song sounds the more i think the flow has served it's purpose, so a less complicated flow at times can be 'better' than a more complicated flow if it's more fitting to the beat.

Lets take metaphor and similies. I'll agree that to an extent this is subjective but if you've heard Liquid Swords you will know that this was packed with some nice lyrics compare that to ....Puff Daddy. Now why for the love of god would I put Puff Daddy on the same level as GZA? Doesn't it to take imagination and hard work to create similies and wordplay? Why would I put a rapper who has mad similies and metaphors on the same level to somebody who has none?

I would also say that GZA in the metaphor and similie department is a better rapper than Meth. Ok you say that there is no objectivity but I could have sworn that Meth was using the same lyrics again. I dunno about you but if you lack imagination and you keep repeating lyrics then thats a minus.

keep in mind 'supaman dat hoe' is technically a metaphor.

if it's the quality of the metaphor that matters, then wouldn't you agree that all comes down to opinion?

I don't think freestyling is an essential part of being a good rapper but obvoulsy since its hard to do we recognise and respect it. If we were trying to score points for rappers a freestyling rapper would get a plus.

Last time I was into rap was 98 but as far as I know Nas has been going downhill from Illimatic. I find him very irritating.

and even though that wasn't directed to me, i think nas has had his ups and downs. i wouldn't agree he's had a consistent decline. 'it was written' is his best album to me. but even after that i think he had ups and downs... 'god's son' was an up... 'hip hop is dead' was a down.