2Pac vs. Biggie

I didnt mean when i said it was over over,i mean when nas put out ether he killed jay. Just read what this fool says, i like jay-z but hes a swagger jacker he use too rap fast then he wanted to be like biggie and stole his style. still reasonable doubt is one of my fav cd's, he goes with the flyest chick, and even signed nas lol.

What's up niggas, ay yo, I know you ain't talkin 'bout me dog
You, what?
"**** Jay-Z"
You been on my dick nigga, you love my style, nigga
"**** Jay-Z"

[Chorus]
(I) **** with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already

Brace yourself for the main event
Y'all impatiently waitin
It's like an AIDS test, what's the results?
Not positive, who's the best? Pac, Nas and Big
Ain't no best, East, West, North, South, flossed out, greedy
I embrace y'all with napalm
Blows up, no guts, left chest, face gone
How could Nas be garbage?
Semi-autos at your cartilege
Burner at the side of your dome, come outta my throne
I got this, locked since '9-1
I am the truest, name a rapper that I ain't influenced
Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
With Hawaiin Sophie fame, kept my name in his music
Check it

I've been ****ed over, left for dead, dissed and fogotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
Y'all some "well wishers," friendly actin, envy hidin snakes
With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take?
When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
This for dolo and it's manuscript, just sound stupid
When KRS already made an album called Blueprint
First, Biggie's ya man, then you got the nerve to say that you better than Big
Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live

[talking]
(I...will...not...lose)
"God's son" across the belly, I prove you lost already
The king is back, where my crown at?
(Ill...will) Ill Will rest in peace, let's do it niggas

Y'all niggas deal with emotions like bitches
What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
You traded your soul for riches
My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
And now I smile like a proud dad, watchin his only son that made it
You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
Well life is hard, hug me, don't reject me
Or make records to disrespect me, blatent or indirectly
In '88 you was gettin chased through your buildin
Callin my crib and I ain't even give you my numbers
All I did was gave you a style for you to run with
Smilin in my face, glad to break bread with the god
Wearin Jaz chains, no tecs, no cash, no cars
No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Just Hawaiian shirts, hangin with little Chase
You a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan
I still whip your ass, you thirty-six in a karate class
You Tae-bo hoe, tryna' work it out, you tryna' get brolic?
Ask me if I'm tryna' kick knowledge
Nah, I'm tryna' kick the shit you need to learn though
That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
Rockafeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas
And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
Foxy got you hot 'cause you kept your face in her puss
What you think, you gettin girls now 'cause of your looks?
Ne-gro please
You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
Compared to Beans you wack
And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Caine, to Herb, to Big
And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
You a dick-ridin ******, you love the attention
Queens niggas run you niggas, ask Russell Simmons
Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
Shaun Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz dick
So little shorty's gettin gunned up and clapped quick
How much of Biggie's rhymes is gon' come out your fat lips?
Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

good luck with that then

how does one quantify the level of flow in a rap song? what is the scale? what are the specific qualities of spoken word that make it flow as opposed to just talking?

People have tried to do this, with almost no success, in many other art forms. It is, imho, impossible to quantify these qualitative things.

Which is why you don't try to quantify qualitative things outside of rigorous scientific research. You can still compare your opinion on each quality to a standard to get a roughly quantitative measurement. If you really wanted something that you could call quantitative you'd need a huge number of judges, not counting the public.

Originally posted by red g jacks

that's fine, but that's a statement which can't be backed beyond personal opinion. i can't even begin to imagine trying to break down a rap flow in an objective sense. if you can then feel free to school me. so far as i can see it all comes down to the sensibilities of the listener.

i personally feel that flow is a means to an ends - the ends being good sounding rap music. the better the song sounds the more i think the flow has served it's purpose, so a less complicated flow at times can be 'better' than a more complicated flow if it's more fitting to the beat.
so do we judge a good rap song simply by the pure number of similes and metaphors within the lyrics, or is it the quality of metaphors that defines a good lyric from a bad lyric?

Yes but how far do you want to take subjectvity? If you take it to extremes then nothing is objective. Yes you could say that a compliacted flow isn't neccesarily better but why would you compare a rapper who isn't able to alter his flow and make it complicated to a rapper who can. Im not saying everything is about complexity and music is supposed to be fun but in any artform, sport or even science its about breaking boundaries shouldn't rappers who try to break these boundaries be given more respect than rappers who don't?

Originally posted by red g jacks

keep in mind 'supaman dat hoe' is technically a metaphor.

if it's the quality of the metaphor that matters, then wouldn't you agree that all comes down to opinion?

Again to an extent its is subjective. I can't say which rhymes is better "I flow like blood on the murder scene", or " I stay on that mind like a brain tumour" thats purely subjective. Would it be absurd to say that "stay on your mind like a brain tumour" is better than "I get you mad stressed". Anybody can say I can get you mad stressed because thats just how people talk but the rapper that went to the effort to make the metaphor and similie should get the credit. Would it also be absurd to say that rappers who keep repeating themselves and keep using the same lyrics again and again and have almost zero metaphors are not very good and lack imagination, why would these rappers be put on the same level to rappers that try their hardest to expand on their skills and to be creative as possible?

You could still say its subjective and it doesn't matter but then thats celebrating mediocrity. Since when is it good to celebrate mediocrity, thats not how artforms or science evolve. However you could also make a logical argument that human beings should not bother to better themselves because we are all going to die some day, so stop wasting your time and kill yourself now.

Originally posted by red g jacks

i agree freestyling is hard and to be respected. also agreed that it's not essential. i'd argue it as a separate artform just to avoid confusion.

Well I kinda disagree, im not sure if im going to get into this because this discussion could get too complicated.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes but how far do you want to take subjectvity? If you take it to extremes then nothing is objective. Yes you could say that a compliacted flow isn't neccesarily better but why would you compare a rapper who isn't able to alter his flow and make it complicated to a rapper who can. Im not saying everything is about complexity and music is supposed to be fun but in any artform, sport or even science its about breaking boundaries shouldn't rappers who try to break these boundaries be given more respect than rappers who don't?

Again to an extent its is subjective. I can't say which rhymes is better "I flow like blood on the murder scene", or " I stay on that mind like a brain tumour" thats purely subjective. Would it be absurd to say that "stay on your mind like a brain tumour" is better than "I get you mad stressed". Anybody can say I can get you mad stressed because thats just how people talk but the rapper that went to the effort to make the metaphor and similie should get the credit. Would it also be absurd to say that rappers who keep repeating themselves and keep using the same lyrics again and again and have almost zero metaphors are not very good and lack imagination, why would these rappers be put on the same level to rappers that try their hardest to expand on their skills and to be creative as possible?

this example may not be taken kindly as talib is a well respected emcee so i'll use a more hated rapper on message boards to help back up my point; lil wayne. tha carter 3 was packed with half assed similes and metaphors, many of them forced and corny in a similar fashion, and some of them nonsensical. "***** im the bomb like tick tick" "bounce right back on them bitches like magic, abra kadabra im up like viagra"... and my personal favorite "flow is tighter than a yeast infection, fly go hard like geese erection."

to me, it seems rappers know people will respect them more if they try to use metaphors and similes and that causes them in some cases to do great things, and in others to completely force a corny line for the sake of a metaphor. sometimes, a straight forward verse can be just as dope. example:

NWA - niggaz 4 life

dre verse 1

Why do I call myself a nigga, you ask me?
I guess it's the way shit has to be
Back when I was young gettin a job was murder
F*ck flippin burgers
'Cause a deserve a nine-to-five I can be proud of
That I can speak loud of
And to help a nigga get out of.
Yo! The concrete playground
But most mother****ers only want you to stay down
But I'm a smart mother****er you see
One of the best producers in the rap music industry
Gettin paid like a mother ****er
A young brother who don't give a f*ck about another

dre verse 2

Why do I call myself a nigga, you ask me?
Because my mouth is so mother ****in nasty
B*tch this, b*tch that
Nigga this, n*gger that
In the mean while my pockets are gettin fat
Gettin paid to say this shit here
Makin more in a week than a doctor makes in a year
So, why not call myself a n*gger?
It's better than pulling the trigger and goin up the river
And then I get called a n*gger anyway?
Booked as a mother****er and locked away
So... so, cut out all that bull shit
Yo! I guess I'll be a nigga for life

You could still say its subjective and it doesn't matter but then thats celebrating mediocrity. Since when is it good to celebrate mediocrity, thats not how artforms or science evolve. However you could also make a logical argument that human beings should not bother to better themselves because we are all going to die some day, so stop wasting your time and kill yourself now.

Originally posted by zbucsz
I didnt mean when i said it was over over,i mean when nas put out ether he killed jay. Just read what this fool says, i like jay-z but hes a swagger jacker he use too rap fast then he wanted to be like biggie and stole his style. still reasonable doubt is one of my fav cd's, he goes with the flyest chick, and even signed nas lol.

What's up niggas, ay yo, I know you ain't talkin 'bout me dog
You, what?
"**** Jay-Z"
You been on my dick nigga, you love my style, nigga
"**** Jay-Z"

[Chorus]
(I) **** with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already

Brace yourself for the main event
Y'all impatiently waitin
It's like an AIDS test, what's the results?
Not positive, who's the best? Pac, Nas and Big
Ain't no best, East, West, North, South, flossed out, greedy
I embrace y'all with napalm
Blows up, no guts, left chest, face gone
How could Nas be garbage?
Semi-autos at your cartilege
Burner at the side of your dome, come outta my throne
I got this, locked since '9-1
I am the truest, name a rapper that I ain't influenced
Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
With Hawaiin Sophie fame, kept my name in his music
Check it

I've been ****ed over, left for dead, dissed and fogotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
Y'all some "well wishers," friendly actin, envy hidin snakes
With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take?
When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
This for dolo and it's manuscript, just sound stupid
When KRS already made an album called Blueprint
First, Biggie's ya man, then you got the nerve to say that you better than Big
Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live

[talking]
(I...will...not...lose)
"God's son" across the belly, I prove you lost already
The king is back, where my crown at?
(Ill...will) Ill Will rest in peace, let's do it niggas

Y'all niggas deal with emotions like bitches
What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
You traded your soul for riches
My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
And now I smile like a proud dad, watchin his only son that made it
You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
Well life is hard, hug me, don't reject me
Or make records to disrespect me, blatent or indirectly
In '88 you was gettin chased through your buildin
Callin my crib and I ain't even give you my numbers
All I did was gave you a style for you to run with
Smilin in my face, glad to break bread with the god
Wearin Jaz chains, no tecs, no cash, no cars
No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Just Hawaiian shirts, hangin with little Chase
You a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan
I still whip your ass, you thirty-six in a karate class
You Tae-bo hoe, tryna' work it out, you tryna' get brolic?
Ask me if I'm tryna' kick knowledge
Nah, I'm tryna' kick the shit you need to learn though
That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
Rockafeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas
And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
Foxy got you hot 'cause you kept your face in her puss
What you think, you gettin girls now 'cause of your looks?
Ne-gro please
You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
Compared to Beans you wack
And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Caine, to Herb, to Big
And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
You a dick-ridin ******, you love the attention
Queens niggas run you niggas, ask Russell Simmons
Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
Shaun Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz dick
So little shorty's gettin gunned up and clapped quick
How much of Biggie's rhymes is gon' come out your fat lips?
Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss

Originally posted by chithappens
Easily. People miss how intricate Eminem got cause of how crazy the concrete imagery was. In the words of Jay Z:

"The game's ****ed up
Nigga's beats is bangin, nigga your hooks did it
Your lyrics didn't, your gangster look did it
So I would write it if y'all could get it
Being intricate, I guess you would critic"

Nas said something kinda similar to that on that "unforgetttable" song when he talked about the cats and the game when he said:

"good times past right after *James died.
That's why these gangsta rhymers ain't inspired.
Heinous rhymes help records sell more than creative lines."

*James Brown (for those that didn't know)

Originally posted by red g jacks
i think it's best not to turn this into a debate on relativism for the sake of the argument. if you want to bring up that 'nothing is objective' then fine but that's certainly not helping prove that rap skill is indeed objective. it's not that i'm arguing against using a complicated flow, or giving more respect to those who you do find impressive or innovative. i'm just not sold on the fact that flow can be judged beyond personal opinion.

it's not absurd to say either of those things. it's absurd to say they are more than just opinion. let me try to clarify what i mean a bit.. most of the time the best rappers will use a lot of literary techniques to spice up their verses. if it comes out well then i give them credit. in my opinion sometimes it is forced and makes the song even worse, so just the sheer number of metaphors and similes is not a good method of judging a rap verse imo. such as talib kweli, a well respected emcee by most informed rap fans. particularly in his early career he would sometimes use similes that were just painful to listen to as far as i'm concerned. similes such as "get you capped like an nba salary" or "emcees wanna test me like litmus." to me these similes seem so forced and corny, that yes, i'd say he'd have been better off just saying "get you shot" or "emcees wanna test me," especially if he could make the rhymes sound cool.

this example may not be taken kindly as talib is a well respected emcee so i'll use a more hated rapper on message boards to help back up my point; lil wayne. tha carter 3 was packed with half assed similes and metaphors, many of them forced and corny in a similar fashion, and some of them nonsensical. "***** im the bomb like tick tick" "bounce right back on them bitches like magic, abra kadabra im up like viagra"... and my personal favorite "flow is tighter than a yeast infection, fly go hard like geese erection."

to me, it seems rappers know people will respect them more if they try to use metaphors and similes and that causes them in some cases to do great things, and in others to completely force a corny line for the sake of a metaphor. sometimes, a straight forward verse can be just as dope. example:
to me despite it not having any mindblowing rhymes or metaphors this is a great verse and i wouldn't have changed it a bit. he could've easily ruined it with excessive literary tricks.

i'm not celebrating mediocrity, i never said it's better to not try i said there's more than one way to be dope and there's no actual fool proof method at creating or judging rap music. i'm not suggesting rappers throw metaphors and other lyrical devices out the window, just that they don't have to automatically force these things and other aspects of lyrical complexity just to boost their own egos. because most of the time we (the listeners) can tell.

I don't know if you're still about but heres the rest of my post.

I think you misunderstood the reason why I stated that everything is subjective and really I don't think it hurts my argument because that was not the entire point I was making. My other point is were do you want to draw the line with subjectivity? I think I gave an example with morality were most people would agree that you should try to do something constructive and be responsible. The point I was making is that most people agree that you should be responsible for your actiona and thats the only way you can be objective really is to try and have an opinion that most people agree on...however even with this point of view people would disagree.

If you're are going to use what sounds better to you that is the very essence of subjectvity. It seems that we agree that its harder to flow in certain ways than in other ways, and its harder to use metaphors, similies and worldpaly as opposed to not making an effort to be creative and actually repeating the same lyrics or using lyrics that have been used before instead of using your own.

On one hand I don't want to say that if you don't agree with my criteria you're not being objective but it seems that there is actually some objectvity involved here. At the end of the day there do seem to be some things that are harder to do in rap and we could use that criteria to say who is better.....but bare in mind I do agree with you to an extent. I don't think we could use it for alot of rappers but I don't see why we couldn't for example say that GZA is better than Wishbone or Common Sense is better than Mase, because there are some rappers that are basically shit.

How about no one gives a shit? They're dead.

I like a very few rap songs, but I'm not caught up on which rock star managed to wipe out the Who. Creedence no longer exists, but I'm not lifting a $2.99 pack of lighters to support them. If they're dead, leave them alone. Do the very least you possibly could and buy their poster and carry them on to the next generation. It's what the fans of the Beatles or Elvis have done.

Yeah, the Ramones or the Sex Pistols! Or Nirvana for that matter.

Why hasn't this case reached the point of "who gives a shit?"

What pisses me off most about this is are the people who walk around thinking Biggie and 2Pac are still alive to this day walking among us. They join the nutcases who believe Elvis is still around.

EDIT: Devil King just said the same thing...

Nice.

Originally posted by Devil King
How about no one gives a shit? They're dead.

I like a very few rap songs, but I'm not caught up on which rock star managed to wipe out the Who. Creedence no longer exists, but I'm not lifting a $2.99 pack of lighters to support them. If they're dead, leave them alone. Do the very least you possibly could and buy their poster and carry them on to the next generation. It's what the fans of the Beatles or Elvis have done.

Yeah, the Ramones or the Sex Pistols! Or Nirvana for that matter.

I don't really give a shit either. You don't give a shit.....well um people wanted to discuss it. *shrug*

@ pac reigns supreme. WESTTTTTTSIDEEEEEEEEEEE
altho i will watch the new biggie movie