Delph's League of Champions Stats, Standings, and Transactions Thread

Originally posted by psycho gundam
technically, in marvel all humanity has the potential for great psionic power (see rick jones). if the power is a mutant talent or some other gene gift(radiation or altered genes), he is a meta-human/super human thus > 5 points.

He might be >5 because of the "I can kill you with a grape" level intelligence not because he has metahuman powers of any notable sort. And I'd really like to see evidence that he has TK, considering the Marvel site that lists the power is a wiki and I've never seen him use TK before.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Then we'll need clarification on it. It sounded odd to me too, but bios can be trusted to a certain extent....especially when we're responsible for the bios we post for our characters. If it was false, it would be scoob/leo's responsibility to either find a new bio or say what the errors are.

My initial reaction is maybe 10 points, but again it's speculation. I bring Cho up so that he can be discussed and we can ascertain where he should be placed.

Let's leave him at 5. If he has no TK powers and he's like alfred weak, then who cares.

actually, i'll disagree with that assessment digi. not up to us to prve he DOESN'T have something. if anyone thinks he's greater than 5pts because he has a power, show us and we'll gladly swap him out. as far as scoob and i know he's NEVER demonstrated tk. ever. anyone prove different?

as far as being more because he's smart-boy blue was 5pts and the guy had more knowledge and more BATTLE knowledge than cho will likely have in his lifetime. he's a teenage kid whom ALFRED would beat down in a fight. people losing track of why the tiers were made, i'm afraid. anyone actually thinks cho hangs with the likes of deadshot, fury or moon knight in a fight, you let me know.

Boy Blue never demonstrated knowledge of battle or tactics. He showed questionable sword fighting ability (it was partially attributed to the sword, if I remember correctly).

He was basically the same as any war veteran- grim and scarred, but not necessarily smarter.

Team Deus Ex Machina (Smurph/Blair)

I need to clear this with Delph, but I think it should be ok.

Earlier this week, Blair and I had a miscommunication and I left him to do the drafts (what was I thinking?)... anyways, he drafted a character (current Air-Wave) for 20 points when he's clearly 30.

In the interest of not having another character disqualification, I'm gonna go ahead and bump him up to 30 points now...

I'm still technically only redrafting Sand and adjusting points for one character so that I don't get harped on later.

Anyways:

Dropping Sand - 30 points ( 🙁 )
Air-Wave- 20 points

Adding:

Air-Wave - 30 points - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Wave#Harold_Jordan

Mantis- 20 points
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_(Marvel_Comics)

I'm just reading about Mantis' apparent new precog now... I wasn't aware, but it's extremely new. If it turns out to be anything significant (I'll ask around), we can just draft an earlier version of Mantis. Regardless, we won't be using the powers, but I know that there's still a no neutering policy.

I also just added up our team's points, and Blair drafted 5 points too many... uhuh

He dropped Hank Pym for 30 points when Hank was only 25... and then drafted 30 points worth to make it equal...

This match is gonna be pretty brutal, a mish mash of quick drafts.

Anybody object if I drop Elixir (20 points) for Mr. Terrific (15 points) in order to make up the difference?

Mr. Terrific II - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Terrific_(Michael_Holt)

That would make the new team:

Air-Wave III
Nimrod
Mr. Terrific II
Mantis
Mr. Sinister

The Mantis pick up is cool as a swap for Sand coupled with the point adjustment with Air Wave, but the Terrific move will have to wait for next week as it's not connected to the roster adjustment for Sand.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
There's a few floating around the draft thread that I've considered. Moonstone, Quicksilver, Midnighter, Storm, a couple others I'm forgetting. I actually doubt I'll use them, but they were all potential picks for me at some point. I like seeing characters used that I have also thought about, to see how other debaters utilize theirs powers in ways I didn't think of.

Well, in that particular case Leo plagiarised my very own plan from recent mid-herald tourney (Shift was amalgamated with Hank Pym for really unlimited mass there, though).

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Going off the bio. But it's a power. Any power. Some people would bump him to 20 pts. simply because of a power. I wouldn't, but it certainly makes him > say, Jarvis.

Scans generally apply when trying to determine if a certain power makes a person a tier higher or not. Like a telekinetic for 20 pts. who might have a ton of 25-30 pt. feats. If the tk is straight false, they're welcome to share that with us and I'll happily reconsider my opinion. But official Marvel sites generally aren't in the business of listing powers that a person doesn't have.

srug

As for me, Cho is fine for 5 points. Nobody argued against Oracle for 5 points, and she's in top 10 of her universe smartest and has absolutely perfect photographic memory (not simply total recall, it also gives her immunity to brainwashing, and unlike Cho's speculated TK, it was shown on panel).

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Well, in that particular case Leo plagiarised my very own plan from recent mid-herald tourney (Shift was amalgamated with Hank Pym for really unlimited mass there, though).

I do believe that Amadeus Cho TK is the same kind of red herring as Cordelia Frost's empathy (fanboy-speculated power never shown on panel).

As for me, Cho is fine for 5 points. Nobody argued against Oracle for 5 points, and she's in top 10 of her universe smartest and has absolutely perfect photographic memory (not simply total recall, it also gives her immunity to brainwashing, and unlike Cho's speculated TK, it was shown on panel).

Actually, ignore what I've written above.
It was brought to my attention Cho's abilities, while not being TK (TK is indeed fan-speculation) function much like Layla Miller's one- the difference is only that while Layla KNOWS stuff, Amadeus Cho CALCULATES stuff. Both can cause serious "domino effects" that way, much like people with banned "luck powers". Cho is Layla Miller-light in that regard, and 5 point human geniuses can't cause "chain effects" allowing them to actually alter the probability chain to cause needed effect.

So...he's either not 5 points but higher, or is going to be banned cause Layla Miller'esque abilities are banned in that tourney (rule #20, Cho's analytical abilities are developed in the way that allows him to replicate probability alteration powers due to "domino effect"😉.

Note:the right price for Cho (if he's allowed)IMO is 15 points, where people like Layla Miller and Rose Tattoo belong.

i was gonna bring up oracle for 5pts as an issue at one time . . . 😉

as for this 'probability altering' 'power'--once again, i ask only for proof. i've got all his incredible herc stuff, and a couple other things, and i've seen him calculate and plan i've never seen any innate ability to alter probability.

anyone finds something, be sure to let me know. and again, if anyone thinks we should do an amadeus cho vs batman of black panther thread, let me know and i'll happily open it.

something i've noticed in this tourney--people are placing characters in tiers based on how they might affect a team or amalgam in THIS TOURNEY. that my friends, is backwards. you need to askm yourselves where would you have placed certain characters in the tiers BEFORE this tournament. that's how i ended up satisfying myself that oracle SHOULD be 5pts. same as cho. he gets massacred in 1on1 combat with anyone above that tier--until or unless he demonstrates that he really DOES have superpowers. someone like lex luthor is both SMARTER and a better h2h opponent so he's 10.

anyone think in a straight up 1on1 battle that cho beats lex? no friggin way . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
actually, i'll disagree with that assessment digi. not up to us to prve he DOESN'T have something. if anyone thinks he's greater than 5pts because he has a power, show us and we'll gladly swap him out. as far as scoob and i know he's NEVER demonstrated tk. ever. anyone prove different?

I'll take your word that he's never demonstrated tk. But the onus is upon those drafting a character to establish his powers or non-powers. Otherwise, we could draft all sorts of obscure characters that no one could object to, not justify anything, then use extravagant powers in battles.

So yeah, we're on a bit of an honor system. The field of participants isn't going to have detailed knowledge of every pick. Therefore, it's up to those who draft them.

....

Terrific should be 20, btw. And Mantis' pre-cog is fairly robust. She's used it in almost every issue of Guardians of the Galaxy so far.

if we (or anyone else) tried using a new power during the tourney, that would simply get the character banned. 😬

in that sense the tournament polices itself.

...to an extent, yes. But mid-match bans are notoriously harder to justify. By the end of many tourneys, characters are shown in scans doing things that would have gotten them a swift ban-axe pre-battles. The gradual increase in both tension and power in the matchups (since most people hold things back early on) creates a new standard.

And if a team uses a power that should get a character banned, it's still their fault for trying it. The tourney may police itself, but it should've been caught earlier.

Again, I'm not indicting you personally, since I trust your word about Cho. But I disagree with your logic on drafts in principle.

Oh, and this:

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Terrific should be 20, btw. And Mantis' pre-cog is fairly robust. She's used it in almost every issue of Guardians of the Galaxy so far.

Originally posted by leonidas
i was gonna bring up oracle for 5pts as an issue at one time . . . 😉

as for this 'probability altering' 'power'--once again, i ask only for proof. i've got all his incredible herc stuff, and a couple other things, and i've seen him calculate and plan i've never seen any innate ability to alter probability.

anyone finds something, be sure to let me know. and again, if anyone thinks we should do an amadeus cho vs batman of black panther thread, let me know and i'll happily open it.

something i've noticed in this tourney--people are placing characters in tiers based on how they might affect a team or amalgam in THIS TOURNEY. that my friends, is backwards. you need to askm yourselves where would you have placed certain characters in the tiers BEFORE this tournament. that's how i ended up satisfying myself that oracle SHOULD be 5pts. same as cho. he gets massacred in 1on1 combat with anyone above that tier--until or unless he demonstrates that he really DOES have superpowers. someone like lex luthor is both SMARTER and a better h2h opponent so he's 10.

anyone think in a straight up 1on1 battle that cho beats lex? no friggin way . . .

Proof is in a couple of hours. I have no scans and a guy who promiced to post it to me is at work now. He'll post it at arpoximately 7 PM GMT.

Cho has NO TK... just Layla Miller-esque powers, which are banned from the tourney. Just because he got them in the way of calculating stuff, not suubconsciously "knowing" it... It's never called "probability altering", but it's the same thing as Layla Miller powers there- only Cho's ones work in conscious way.

H2H argument isn't what is justified by chosing people. For example, I can beat Leech - I have no superpowers and good with riffle (was a biathlete when at high school) provided you give me a gun. Does that mean I can draft Leech for 5 points?

As for Lex vs Amadeus Cho- Cho can throw a stone exactly in trajectory needed for Lex to trip over it "accidently" and break his neck. He calculates all his actions and his consequences. Scans will be presented if needed.

But that's not TK. I call that "domino effect"- calculating all the probabilities and doing small stuff that results in chain reaction causing bigger stuff.

As I've said, I wasn't against Cho until I was told that he's basically Layla Miller with a dick and slightly different explanation of powers (and not being central PIS-devise in any huge event so far).

guess digi and i will simply disagree on principle. i would have absolutely no problem with calling a halt in a match if someone used a power that was outside their tier-range until it was ruled on. (i would think no one else would have an issue either) policing CAN certainly work, if people in the matches MAKE it work. beyond that, it is entirely possible that the people who TOOK the character didn't know about a particular appearance or ability, so policing is necessary regardless.

as for the leech example--he's in the same boat as cortez who is a rather special case. they would be beaten by anyone without powers but cause grief to those WITH powers. they are very difficult to categorize in tiers because of their 'power-specific' natures. which is why they've been so discussed.

i sent a cho scan to ill earlier (wonder if it's the same one your friend will send) for his interpretation. he can feel free to let everyone know about it and comment on it and scoob and i will gladly abide by any decisions rendered. if you have even more proof, like i said, we'll certainly switch him.

as for cho v lex? lex beats him down everytime . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
guess digi and i will simply disagree on principle. i would have absolutely no problem with calling a halt in a match if someone used a power that was outside their tier-range until it was ruled on. (i would think no one else would have an issue either) policing CAN certainly work, if people in the matches MAKE it work. beyond that, it is entirely possible that the people who TOOK the character didn't know about a particular appearance or ability, so policing is necessary regardless.

as for the leech example--he's in the same boat as cortez who is a rather special case. they would be beaten by anyone without powers but cause grief to those WITH powers. they are very difficult to categorize in tiers because of their 'power-specific' natures. which is why they've been so discussed.

i sent a cho scan to ill earlier (wonder if it's the same one your friend will send) for his interpretation. he can feel free to let everyone know about it and comment on it and scoob and i will gladly abide by any decisions rendered. if you have even more proof, like i said, we'll certainly switch him.

as for cho v lex? lex beats him down everytime . . .

He said scans, not scan. I didn't know anything about Cho, and decided he's just another non-powered person with genius level IQ, thus worth 5 points (note that I wasn't saying anything against him and said (rightfully) that he has no TK until further research shown that while he has no TK, he has ability to cause "domino effects" via calculating direct consequenses of his action and that might get him banned via rule 20). I asked my friend who has read every single appearance of his (minus one from Amazing Fantasy, but there he wasn't doing much AFAIR) for proof and he said that Cho= Layla Miller with dick and different explanation for powers.

Note that while Layla and Cho are normal kids otherwise (and thus are killable by street level fighters worth their salt), their abilities to cause "domino effect" is what's dangerous and was banned in tourney. Unless the ban applies to psionically-based probability altering, not "domino effect" (though IMO both should be ruled out by being PIS-driven powers).

so, basically you're saying it seems like he is smart enough to predict the results of his actions. i agree completely. 🙂

also, layla has a mutant POWER and is a precog. she can also see MULTIPLE PATHS. cho has never shown anything beyond the ability to react to things that are ALREADY happening around him. but, i await your scans.

Originally posted by leonidas
also, layla has a mutant POWER and is a precog. she can also see MULTIPLE PATHS. cho has never shown anything beyond the ability to react to things that are ALREADY happening around him. but, i await your scans.

As my friend put it "the only difference is that Layla knows and Cho calculates. Both can destroy a brick wall by throwing a stone in exactly the needed place. The thing is that Cho needs to examine the wall and calculate trajectory of the stone, Layla can do that on the spot and also "knows" what will happen to said wall or whatever remains from it billion years in the future. Both can cause "domino effects", but in Cho's case it's byproduct of his analytical abilities, in Layla's- precognition\knowing stuff.

And Layla is NOT a mutant...her ability is ill-defined, but the one thing we know is the absence of X-gene in her DNA. But I got what you mean.