ROTS Pre-Suit Vader vs. Galen Marek

Started by Lightsnake26 pages

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wald
And your dissenting biologist IS a Nobel prize winner.

He's a NEUROBIOLOGIST...you have any idea what the difference is?
And I'm not seeing the quote there.

Like I said, this can happen, but its not mutation. A chiuaua can be bred with a Labrador to bring forth a different animal.

Yeah, and that's not mutation nor is it a 'different animal.' It's still a dog. A mixed breed dog, but still a dog. A mutation is when something new arises from the genetic coding, an anomaly.

So its not a mutation unless the animal's ancestors don't contain the dark pigment. And since, as we believe, all dog's common ancestors have been... dogs, a different colored dog isn't going to be that shocking.

No. Something changes in that specific creature's nucleotides.
And again...strawman. Dogs are still evolving. the dewclaw is vanishing, for one. Moreover, what about a thicker coat? A better developed sense of smell? Those ARE mutations. A different color coat wouldn't be unless such a color coat wasn't in any of the genes in its ancestry


Like I said... There haven't been any beneficial MUTATIONS (according to my attached definition).

http://www.cdc.gov/genomics/hugenet/factsheets/FS_CCR5.htm
Here's one. A tiny percentage of mutations are beneficial-they even have their own classification

hmm. not according to my dictionary, or anyone else's. try again.

[B]mu·ta·tion (my-tshn)
n.
1. The act or process of being altered or changed.
2. An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.
3. Genetics
a. A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.
b. The process by which such a change occurs in a chromosome, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
c. A mutant.

Shut up now

well argued. your most coherent point.

Your wit matches your brainpower

Hmm. So something that hasn't been tested, you say it all happened millions of years ago, there is no evidence, so someone makes an excuse of WHY there isn't evidence and all of a sudden we have fact? I'm sorry, I don't believe it. [/B]

There are these things called 'fossils' and through them we measure effects, along with carbon dating and testing.

You've provided nothing, btw.

I never denied evolution WITHIN species, but birds didn't evolve from lizards, they evolved from birds, etc. I understand the tendencies for dogs of better breeding to survive whereas dogs of lesser breeding are going to die (chiuaua's for instance). What you cannot prove is when that lizards come from birds, or that dogs came from whatever it is you say they came from. There is no HARD evidence for such.

I don't think I have ever said ANYTHING about evolution within species. A dog can become a better dog, but its never going to become some flying cold blooded dog. Scientifically, animals can't skip through the classes. EVER! THERE IS NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE OF A FRUIT FLY TURNING INTO A FLY THROUGH MUTATIONS!

I asked you for proof of this! I did not ask for proof that a dog can be bred to become a better dog.

Lightsnake, you are being too nice with using the words "silly" and "dribble" I think "a bloody idiot", "completely retarded" and "bullshit" are much more appropriate. This is just so stupid. Makes me laugh out loud, and then cry.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's a NEUROBIOLOGIST...you have any idea what the difference is?

A biologist who studies nerves? interesting. that's far more complicated, you realize.
You've provided nothing, btw.

and you have?

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Lightsnake, you are being too nice with using the words "silly" and "dribble" I think "a bloody idiot", "completely retarded" and "bullshit" are much more appropriate. This is just so stupid. Makes me laugh out loud, and then cry.

OK shithead. You supply hard evidence or an academic study of evolution that has been proven.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I never denied evolution WITHIN species, but birds didn't evolve from lizards, they evolved from birds, etc. I understand the tendencies for dogs of better breeding to survive whereas dogs of lesser breeding are going to die (chiuaua's for instance). What you cannot prove is when that lizards come from birds, or that dogs came from whatever it is you say they came from. There is no HARD evidence for such.

I don't think I have ever said ANYTHING about evolution within species. A dog can become a better dog, but its never going to become some flying cold blooded dog. Scientifically, animals can't skip through the classes. EVER! THERE IS NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE OF A FRUIT FLY TURNING INTO A FLY THROUGH MUTATIONS!

I asked you for proof of this! I did not ask for proof that a dog can be bred to become a better dog.

It's cool how species can evolve across the classes, but they all originated from the same primordial ooze.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
OK shithead. You supply hard evidence or an academic study of evolution that has been proven.
It is next to IMPOSSIBLE to prove a scientific theory. The germ THEORY (how you get sick) has not been proven, yet it has MOUNDS of evidence behind it. Same with almost every other facet of scientific study that is accepted, yet still considered a theory, including evolution. And proving something to your ignorant ass seems impossible, because unless it was written in the fictional work of the bible, you wont believe it.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I never denied evolution WITHIN species, but birds didn't evolve from lizards, they evolved from birds, etc. I understand the tendencies for dogs of better breeding to survive whereas dogs of lesser breeding are going to die (chiuaua's for instance). What you cannot prove is when that lizards come from birds, or that dogs came from whatever it is you say they came from. There is no HARD evidence for such.

Some birds have scaled feet. some dinosaurs had FEATHERS.
Birds don't hatch lizards or vice versa. It's not one species turning into another. They share common ancestores and VERY slowly evolve

I don't think I have ever said ANYTHING about evolution within species. A dog can become a better dog, but its never going to become some flying cold blooded dog. Scientifically, animals can't skip through the classes. EVER! THERE IS NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE OF A FRUIT FLY TURNING INTO A FLY THROUGH MUTATIONS!


No, it'll become a different species and branch off entirely.
You're not getting evolution. At all


I asked you for proof of this! I did not ask for proof that a dog can be bred to become a better dog.

How many more links do you want?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Some birds have scaled feet. some dinosaurs had FEATHERS.
Birds don't hatch lizards or vice versa. It's not one species turning into another. They share common ancestores and VERY slowly evolve

And the platapus has a duck bill and a badger's body. did it evolve slowly from a badger and is evolving into a duck? no. And how do you know these dinosaurs had feathers? how do you even know they had scales? all you have seen is their bone structure.

No, it'll become a different species and branch off entirely.
You're not getting evolution. At all

How many more links do you want?

I get it already, your chief bone from my arguement is that I use present day animals to refer to prehistoric animals. and I dont want any more of that shit. I'm tired of reading it.

WOW. just wow. I am embarressed to be of the same species as him.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
And the platapus has a duck bill and a badger's body. did it evolve slowly from a badger and is evolving into a duck? no. And how do you know these dinosaurs had feathers? how do you even know they had scales? all you have seen is their bone structure.

Wow...just...wow. You're aware of things like bone structure and carbon dating right?
The Platypus having a duckbill means once upon a time, a creature sharing a common ancestor with a platypus branched off and kept some traits and lost others.
Of course it's not evolving into a bloody duck.

I get it already, your chief bone from my arguement is that I use present day animals to refer to prehistoric animals. and I dont want any more of that shit. I'm tired of reading it.


Sigh...just wow.

how can you tell if a dinosaur had feathers by their bones? I'm curious.

Bone structure, shape, and other things. And you usually find links with their distant relatives-IE: birds.

haha thats assuming that dinosuars are related to birds.

I will retreat to the point of saying that evolution is a theory and has a lot to be proved before it should be taught in public schools as the origin of all life. After that, I am a rock.

The assumption is based on the evidence, not the other way around. And a scientific theory means it's both theory and fact

theory means theory. and You have yet to post one fossil of a transitional link except for a bird that someone said had feathers. do you mean this definition of fact? 4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

because it can't be this defenition, because nobody has witnessed or proved evolution, and there have been many disprovings of it. my stand on education is that anything that hasn't been observed by human eyes should not be taught in a school of education.
Defenitions of fact that evolution cannot contain:
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

OK. This is what I can find from the interval that I’ve been gone. If there’s anything I missed, quote yourself and I’ll try to find it.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
So it says that: There is an even simpler, more reasonable explanation for this. four thousand years ago, a flood devastated the earth. The flood fossilized the animals, and thus, as you are not going to get a kangaroo fossil in north America, in some areas/elevations you are not going to find certain types of creatures, and since insects can fly and float to an extent, they are not going to be submerged in mud and water as quickly as the rest, and therefor won't be fossilized in the same layer. so now he is saying that he only has some of the families. Well if evolution is true, there should be at least one transitional form, i mean, how lucky would us creationists have to be if there were no transitional forms to be found anywhere? yay, so he has no transitional forms and an excuse he made up that in order for it to be valid, you have to believe that evolution is true. So he made up this long and boring rant comparable to that of supershadow in an attempt to clarify in evolutionary terms why he has no evidence for evolution.

1. Flood Geology.
First and foremost, where did the water for the ‘flood’ come from? Where did it go? How did it fossilize the animals it drowned in the exact order that would provide evidence for evolution? Why would the heavier animals not all be at the bottom, rather than the mixture of sizes and kinds of animals that we have now? Why are some insect fossils found in layers lower than those of animals that won’t float?

2. There are transitional forms, and we have posted several links to lists, and all I can say to you is ARCHAEOPTERYX.

3. As for the relative scarcity of fossils, and especially of transitional species, there is a combination of factors that work against us. First and foremost, with punctuated equilibrium the time period of transition is very small, and so the probability of an animal that is fossilized being a transitional form is much smaller. Also, the factors that lead to a fossil are very rare, as well. The conditions must be within a very specific range, or the carcass will be destroyed and not preserved. In all honesty, we can be amazed at the quantity of fossils that we do have.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

I could argue that you can't prove to me that when we are creating art surrealistically, you are actually viewing one of the many dimensions in which the earth is viewed through an entirely different perspective, but lets keep this in evolution vs creationism, shall we? And I understand that matter behaves differently at extreme temperatures. And can you prove that nuclear fusion changes one element to another, or are you arguing another "theory"?

I’m sorry, but what does art have to do with art?
As for fusion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleosynthesis

Essentially, lighter atoms are smashed together to form energy and heavier elements. I would really rather not debate this, as there is not even a hint of controversy or ‘wiggle room’ and it has little bearing on the truth of the Theory of Evolution.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Ok, so the bat evolved from an animal that LOOKS LIKE a shrew. But somewhere along the lines of those transitional forms, there has to be a bat that can't fly. An animal that looks like a shrew isn't going to sprout wings and fly in one generation. SO at some point, you must have a bat/thingthatlookslikeashrew that has huge thumbs and useless forelimbs. And it is supposed to survive because it is the fittest. Hit me with another one. And no, I understand that modern day animals don't change into other modern day animals, but I also understand that ancient animals don't change into different classes of modern day animals.
[QUOTE=11096688]Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
[B]
uhuh, and when have we ever observed the slightest mutation to be beneficial? In all our years of academic biologic study? and yes, i understand the premise of zoology. Species can intermingle and bring forth young; class/kind cannot. You can get a species of dog to breed until it is fat, has long floppy ears, and short legs, but its never going to be able to be a futuristic animal that resembles a rabit.

You can’t just personally redefine a word: mutation (in this context and to use the meaning of another context is intellectually dishonest) means a change in the nucleotide-base sequence of a gene or DNA molecule.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

One of your so called scientists who would throw out an incorrect theory at the drop of a hat...

Extraordinary claims merit extraordinary proof. You have supplied none. Creationist tactics are essentially saying “but theres not nuff proof 4 evilution and its teh devil!!!111” and then slipping creationism in as the other choice. This scientist wasn’t telling us to cling to evolution, but to doubt creationism. There IS a difference.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Hitler's master race was based on your idea of evolution. If we were to kill off the weaker species of Homo Sapien, than the fittest would evolve faster, and our race will transcend into glory. This theory caused the slow and systematic deaths of MILLIONS.


Ahh, I’ve been waiting for this. My trump card. Argumentum ad Hitlerum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Even if we ignore the argument from Hitlerism, it fails on its own merits. Hitler used the german word for evolution ONCE in Mein Kampf. He does however, make several allusions to the superiority of whites (Aryans) over other races as supported by the bible.
From http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/nazis.htm
“White Aryans, Hitler writes, are the special creations of God, the "highest image of the Lord", put here specifically to rule over the "subhuman" races: "Human culture and civilization on this continent are inseparably bound up with the presence of the Aryan. If he dies out or declines, the dark veils of an age without culture will again descend on this globe. The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise." (all quotes from Hitler, Mein Kampf, online version)

Hitler’s inspiration was of religious, not secular origin. Also, Stalin, arguably the greater violator of human rights rejected Darwinian evolution.

Fail. You just said that it has been repeatedly tested or widely accepted. there is a whole contingency of christian, muslim, and hindu scientists who don't accept it, so it can't be widely accepted. It has never been tested, and it can't be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Lets not get nasty, because it is you who have ‘failed’. You have stated that scientists with a bias reject Evolution. Who cares? Impartial, objective scientists have tested it, and used it to make predictions about the natural world.

@Truejedi:

Originally posted by truejedi
first, its a big universe, we live in an itty bitty piece of it, i'd say there are more than enough gaps for any "potential god" to hide in if that entity actually wanted to.

The problem with stashing God in any gap is that it can eventually be filled. Do we know everything? No. Can we? Maybe. Are we trying? Yes.

Originally posted by Truejedi
As i said, take evolution, i don't believe it, but it doesn't mean you can't, what i want to know, is simply WHERE did the mass from the big bang come from? (i mean, i'll even give you the big bang) i'm just wondering, where did it come from? you say in the next paragraph that it had all of eternity to form, but given all of eternity, matter cannot manipulate itself without energy, and where did your potential energy come from? Even scientists admit that all energy in the universe will run out someday, so the question is, and we know energy can be neither created nor destroyed, all energy in a system will be constant, so, given the universe as our system, where the heck did all that energy come from in the first place? No energy, no Big Bang. So i ask it again, denying the possibility that energy and matter can form themselves out of nothing, because that's absurd, and you know it, where did it come from?

Again: the truth of the Big Bang Theory is irrelevant to Evolution through Natural Selection. If you want to think that it was all started by a creator, go ahead. I just don’t see it as necessary. If it can be done without, then why posit an unnecessary, conjectural, cluttering force in the universe?
Originally posted by Truejedi
I answered the first sentence there already, and the problem with it is, there is actually a probability of 0 in 1E100000000000000000 of energy forming out of nothing. I'm assuming for something to reach or be maintained at your plank temperature, ENERGY IS REQUIRED. SO WHERE THE HECK IS THE ENERGY COMING FROM? So even if your probability argument is correct, then that theory still fails.

Actually, you were just a little off, or else you could have answered your own question! It occurs on the quantum level, where energy and matter seem to be created and destroyed. If it had eternity to happen, eventually it would.

Originally posted by Truejedi
here's the other problem. You express a belief in something that science doesn't back up, and science can't even come close to proving, by your own admission (the formation of that singularity due to plank temperature... etc.) However, virtually all creationist theories believe that everything was created fully matured, i.e., trees weren't seeds, light from stars didn't take millions of years to reach earth after creation, birds weren't eggs, etc. If this were to be true (not proven i know) but if it were, then there would be virtually no way of distinguishing a universe that is billions of years old from one that is only 100's, thousands, 10k or 100k thousands of years old. To me, its hard to believe that that's true, but to look at it objectively, its JUST AS EASY TO BELIEVE as something coming from nothing, because EVERY scientific law we have ever adhered to keeps that from being possible.

The problem is that evidence points the other way, and God would have no need to make it look like he was not part of the creation process. He could have made it irrefutably clear that he created the universe, and proven his existence to the closest scientific certainty. He hasn’t. We must either believe that god lied (impossible- goes against his character&#61514😉 or that he doesn’t exist (probable, because there is no positive evidence yet to be submitted.)

Originally posted by Truejedi
pg 2.... was pulling down the star destroyer impressive? and jbill replied with "we can't occupy the middle east" whatever that means, and then it was off.

I’m the one who got us off topic? I’m flattered. Really.

Can we STOP this nonsensical 'But HITLER/STALIN believed...." Stuff?

Godwin's law...it never fails. By this logic, we might well say "Did *Insert famous bad guy here* Like apples? Do YOU?!"