ROTS Pre-Suit Vader vs. Galen Marek

Started by Null ARC Avis26 pages

Originally posted by Jbill311
@Truejedi:


Actually, you were just a little off, or else you could have answered your own question! It occurs on the quantum level, where energy and matter seem to be created and destroyed. If it had eternity to happen, eventually it would.
[/B]


Wait... i have yet to take physics, but am rather interested at how energy can be created from nothing, and cant really understand all the scientific mumbo jumbo on sites about it, so can you please explain to me in simple english how it is possible?

That God of the Gaps thing, despite the pitiful logic that has gone into reaching such a conclusion, is fully possible, considering our perception is actually physically limited in a correlating manner to the age of the universe. Meaning, we can only see about 13.7 billion light-years in any direction; what lies outside that range is anyone's guess.

Originally posted by Faunus
That God of the Gaps thing, despite the pitiful logic that has gone into reaching such a conclusion, is fully possible, considering our perception is actually physically limited in a correlating manner to the age of the universe. Meaning, we can only see about 13.7 billion light-years in any direction; what lies outside that range is anyone's guess.

But isn't it reasonable to assume that what lies beyond it is exactly the same as what lies within it? Its not as if at 13.7 billion light years, you will find the laws of physics completly changed.

This was also explained to me in idiot speak, so it might be a little garbled, but I'll give it a try. Essentially, non-vacuum is less likely than vacuum. Essentially a derivative of the Uncertainty principle, the idea is that "virtual particles" are created in pairs, with a net energy of zero, which do not disobey the laws of thermodynamics.

Honestly though, the origin of the singularity does not interest me so much as what happened afterward. The plank era, (directly after the explosion) especially interests me- the conditions are so alien that physics as we know it breaks down. Where the 'singularity' comes from seems like a catch 22 inherent in the origin of the universe. Privately, I support a constantly expanding and contracting universe, with the Singularity being the collapsed remains of the 'alternate universe', only with such extraordinary differences in the interim (during the singularity) that the laws of physics are re-written. The abstract theorizing, while fascinating, seems to help us less than an investigation into our own universe.

honestly, we could go round and round on these issues, (as people obviously has for years. For the sake of my grades, i'm going to take myself out of the discussion, with my own views intact, and presented for consideration. jbill, thanks for a good discussion,

Null ARC, what the hey? way to present yourself like a total ass. If name-calling were effective in persuading people, you might be effective in a discussion.

Incidentally, I do believe that there is a Philosophy forum.

Most of this was a whirlwind of off topic posts, apparently caused by a flippant analogy on my part. I must admit, I had a lot of fun arguing the basics of evolution with the brick wall of Christian fundamentalism. Maybe I'll do a more in depth look (one with actual thought and effort) at Flood Geology in order to fully pwn the fundies.

TrueJedi: I don't have any animosity to you, and I hope it doesn't sound like I did. You made some great points, but I am pretty entrenched in my own viewpoint. Way to think for yourself- asking the questions in the first place is the prerequisite for thought.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Most of this was a whirlwind of off topic posts, apparently caused by a flippant analogy on my part. I must admit, I had a lot of fun arguing the basics of evolution with the brick wall of Christian fundamentalism. Maybe I'll do a more in depth look (one with actual thought and effort) at Flood Geology in order to fully pwn the fundies.

TrueJedi: I don't have any animosity to you, and I hope it doesn't sound like I did. You made some great points, but I am pretty entrenched in my own viewpoint. Way to think for yourself- asking the questions in the first place is the prerequisite for thought.

same to you! and i didn't really expect to change anybody's mind chatting on an online forum, so good discussion, but, you (lol) called me a christian again!

Originally posted by truejedi
same to you! and i didn't really expect to change anybody's mind chatting on an online forum, so good discussion, but, you (lol) called me a christian again!

Actually I meant Lord Knightfa11 with the Fundie remark. I wouldn't insult you by calling you that (intentionally) without you telling me you were christian first.

why would we evolve to need two people to reproduce? thats not the fittest! why didn't we evolve so that we were all a-sexual?

How about the eye? this is natural? something that happens all by itself? An accident you say? something designed to focus light so that you can sense everything around you? How did the eye evolve? How did it start? a mutation that could sense light evolved so that you can clearly see everything around you? what made this mutation the fittest?

Laws of thermodynamics.
First law:
The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

For those of you who are keeping track, this is ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC LAW. Law=hypothesis-->testing-->theory--->law. This has been proven and reproven over and over again. Put meat in a jar and seal it, the meat is going to degenerate. Put a bunch of wood in the middle of a yard, and its going to rot. This basically says that everything is advancing to a state of chaos. Evolution simply can't occur because nature when left alone is not going to create life, its going to degenerate it. This means that the primordial ooze theory can't happen.

Complexity of a cell:
these are protozoa, widely considered to be one of the most basic single celled organisms in existence today. As you can see, it is not made as simply as they thought it could be created in the 1800's. you could have trillions of years of inanimate matter, and you are NEVER going to get a single celled organism, even if its the most muddy and varied ooze you could find.

A lot of evolution's ideas are disproved by simple common sense, such as the eye, an invention that naturally focuses light on a sensor to gauge perfectly ones surroundings.

Things like a bat evolving from an animal that resembles a shrew...

It is next to IMPOSSIBLE to prove a scientific theory. The germ THEORY (how you get sick) has not been proven, yet it has MOUNDS of evidence behind it. Same with almost every other facet of scientific study that is accepted, yet still considered a theory, including evolution. And proving something to your ignorant ass seems impossible, because unless it was written in the fictional work of the bible, you wont believe it.

The germ theory has been evidenced and tested. Evolution cannot be, and that is why it will not advance past the testing phase. Your most believeable piece of evidence is the archeopteryx.

^This is the best picture i can find of a factual archeopteryx ^

This is a factual picture of a veliciraptor.

This is an evolutionist's conceptual design of the archeopteryx:

As you can see, there are more similarities in the structure to a veliciraptor, it just has slightly longer arms. Here is a picture of a modern day bird's bone structure.

As you can see, the ribs on the Archeopteryx are very numerous, there is no bone that even gets close to representing the bird's breast bone, and the only thing that can be considered akin to the bird is the elongated arms. the arms don't even bend the same way on the archeopteryx, and indeed, it looks rather more like the veliciraptor. Unfortunately, some scientist decided to make the long arms and make them wings and put feathers on them... Suddenly this makes it a transitional fossil.
now put skin and muscles on this skeleton. you get a beast quite akin to a veliciraptor. This animal shows no characteristics close to a bird's.

Hitler was also INSANE, and by our moral code under the influence of several beings of a different dimension.

1. Flood Geology.
First and foremost, where did the water for the ‘flood’ come from? Where did it go? How did it fossilize the animals it drowned in the exact order that would provide evidence for evolution? Why would the heavier animals not all be at the bottom, rather than the mixture of sizes and kinds of animals that we have now? Why are some insect fossils found in layers lower than those of animals that won’t float?

One of my favorite theories for the flood (the flood is undebatable, a worldwide flood happened at one point or another, as all cultures have some sort of myth or legend about a worldwide flood. its part of the chinese religion, the Mayan religion, so we assume that it has not been made up by christians.) is that there was a firmament above the earth, just outside of the atmosphere. This firmament was made out of pure ice, and it created a greenhouse effect. The weight of the ice doubled the air pressure, which would be very beneficial to races, causing them to live for a long time, (1000+years before the deluge). When god decided to kill off all the assholes down here, the firmament collapsed, raining large chunks of ice on the earth. The water flooded the earth. there was also water underground that turned into geysers, etc. Mudslides (etc) trapped alot of the animals, keeping them from floating, and compressing them, creating fossils far beneath the earth's newly formed surface (Seriously, how do you think fossil fuel got underneath the oceans?). the ones allowed to float would have rotted and there would be no evidence of such. This sight: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinofossils/Fossilhow.html describes what would have happened to animals trapped under mudslides from the flood. Eventually enough of the water from under ground's now hollow caverns collapsed, causing the ocean to recede, leaving 30% of the earth to be dry land.

This theory (once again, I'm not trying to pass it off as fact) explains alot of things that the bible doesn't explain.

Where did dinosaurs go? well, alot of them were very big, and used very tiny nostrils and lungs for their large size. Used to breathing oxygen twice as potent as before, these large animal's life span decreased to before breeding age. The ones that survived were hunted nigh to extinction. (where did stories of dragons and mythology of such come from?) there are some who have even seen possible surviving oceanic dinosaurs. Loch ness would be unexplainable in evolution's terms. It makes a lot more sense when you think that there maybe a few dinosaurs living in the caverns under that lake, and more sense when you say that they survived independently for 4000 years instead of 2 billion.


The problem is that evidence points the other way, and God would have no need to make it look like he was not part of the creation process. He could have made it irrefutably clear that he created the universe, and proven his existence to the closest scientific certainty. He hasn’t. We must either believe that god lied (impossible- goes against his characterwink or that he doesn’t exist (probable, because there is no positive evidence yet to be submitted.)

Since you fail to realize that the complexity of the universe could not have been an accident that created infinitely complex galaxies within galaxies within galaxies, apparently. Also, god refuses to directly interfere with us mortals so we are free to make our own choices.

Ya know, if you keep asking "Why" questions that can't be answered, you're gonna get murdered by people with better things to do.

meh i don't really expect them to agree with me. Nobody ever leaves an online debate going "omg that guy was awesome how could i have been so wrong? even if they prove themselves right beyond a shadow of a doubt (which they can't, because they aren't) i'm still going to be quite skeptical.

I expect them to trust the established order. I'm just upsetting it for chaos's sake (and a good debate). HEHEHEHEHE

I do believe everything that I post.

It's not about who's right. It's about sending a message: Darwin was a dick.

well so's the joker... but your point is taken...

Oh have you seen this? ventrilo harassment!! and phonecalls if you know what you are doing. http://www.soundboard.com/sb/joker_heath_clips.aspx

And here it is in use. http://www.youtube.com/watch?aq=f&emb=0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideosearch%3Fq%3Djoker+ventrilo+harrassment&v=CMPy5vyE0Fc

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

One of my favorite theories for the flood (the flood is undebatable, a worldwide flood happened at one point or another, as all cultures have some sort of myth or legend about a worldwide flood. its part of the chinese religion, the Mayan religion, so we assume that it has not been made up by christians.) is that there was a firmament above the earth, just outside of the atmosphere. This firmament was made out of pure ice, and it created a greenhouse effect. The weight of the ice doubled the air pressure, which would be very beneficial to races, causing them to live for a long time, (1000+years before the deluge). When god decided to kill off all the assholes down here, the firmament collapsed, raining large chunks of ice on the earth. The water flooded the earth. there was also water underground that turned into geysers, etc. Mudslides (etc) trapped alot of the animals, keeping them from floating, and compressing them, creating fossils far beneath the earth's newly formed surface (Seriously, how do you think fossil fuel got underneath the oceans?). the ones allowed to float would have rotted and there would be no evidence of such. This sight: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinofossils/Fossilhow.html describes what would have happened to animals trapped under mudslides from the flood. Eventually enough of the water from under ground's now hollow caverns collapsed, causing the ocean to recede, leaving 30% of the earth to be dry land.

This theory (once again, I'm not trying to pass it off as fact) explains alot of things that the bible doesn't explain.

Where did dinosaurs go? well, alot of them were very big, and used very tiny nostrils and lungs for their large size. Used to breathing oxygen twice as potent as before, these large animal's life span decreased to before breeding age. The ones that survived were hunted nigh to extinction. (where did stories of dragons and mythology of such come from?) there are some who have even seen possible surviving oceanic dinosaurs. Loch ness would be unexplainable in evolution's terms. It makes a lot more sense when you think that there maybe a few dinosaurs living in the caverns under that lake, and more sense when you say that they survived independently for 4000 years instead of 2 billion.

.

i watched a seminar on a video years ago by a guy who was laying that theory out. You wouldn't happen to know who that might have been would you? (your theory is EXACTLY what he was saying some i curious if you got it from the same place.)

If it was Kent hovind, he has alot of theories that correspond with mine. www.drdino.com

I had that theory from before i saw kent hovind though.

Another theory that is probably my second favorite is that comets are made out of ice and there used to be alot more, untill they all hit the earth, causing a flood. of course this would require god to guide them and thus is less scientific sounding. 🙂

What. The. ****?

What was holding up the ice (it being above the atmosphere) in the first place?

Dinosaurs died off in the KT extinction event circa 65 million years ago. Homo sapiens evolved 1.7 million years ago. If that was what killed the dinosaurs, we'd have zero knowledge or memory of it - especially not enough to make up deluge stories in worldwide myths.

Those are just a few of the problems I see, off hand, with that "theory." I'd believe in Joseph Smith Jr. before I'd believe in that nonsense.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Dinosaurs died off in the KT extinction event circa 65 million years ago. Homo sapiens evolved 1.7 million years ago. If that was what killed the dinosaurs, we'd have zero knowledge or memory of it - especially not enough to make up deluge stories in worldwide myths.

you obviously don't get it, do you? he's not giving you evolution. and according to his theory, the world is NOT 65 million years old. According to the christian bible, there are passages where people describe dinasoars.(book of Job) These passages are written something like 4000 years ago. It also says in Genesis that all the animals were created at once (over the span of 3 days, )if so, dinasours would be included there too. In the flood story, Noah takes two of EVERY animal on his ark, and that too would include dinasours.
So according to the references he's working with, the theory he presented doesn't have any obvious holes.

The only point i would take the time to discuss IS the age of the earth, because learning how carbon dating works, it seems RIDICULOUS to make an assumption like there has always been the same amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere.

oh, btw, guess where the stories of firebreathing dragons originate? Scandinavia. Where its frozen all the time... so if a dinasour was breathing, and its breathe was coming out of its mouth.... might look a lot like it had smoke coming out of its mouth.

Originally posted by truejedi
you obviously don't get it, do you? he's not giving you evolution. and according to his theory, the world is NOT 65 million years old. According to the christian bible, there are passages where people describe dinasoars.(book of Job) These passages are written something like 4000 years ago. It also says in Genesis that all the animals were created at once (over the span of 3 days, )if so, dinasours would be included there too. In the flood story, Noah takes two of EVERY animal on his ark, and that too would include dinasours.
So according to the references he's working with, the theory he presented doesn't have any obvious holes.

The only point i would take the time to discuss IS the age of the earth, because learning how carbon dating works, it seems RIDICULOUS to make an assumption like there has always been the same amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere.

oh, btw, guess where the stories of firebreathing dragons originate? Scandinavia. Where its frozen all the time... so if a dinasour was breathing, and its breathe was coming out of its mouth.... might look a lot like it had smoke coming out of its mouth.

.....Oh. Well, damn.

Carbon dating. That's all I have to say there. That's how they've proven the age of fossils...