Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Everyone listen to this man. He is the prophet whose words will bring the light of truth to these dark lands, and he will free you from your chains of ignorance.
Bless you, my child.
'Ppreciate it. I'll keep that file on you're left nipple under wraps.
Tsk tsk. Can't share anything with you, can I?
Originally posted by Great VengeanceI don't think Janus is about to go apeshit over the fact that Revan can defeat Yoda. So, why are you cheering?
Everyone listen to this man. He is the prophet whose words will bring the light of truth to these dark lands, and he will free you from your chains of ignorance.
Just kidding, believe in Jesus.
Originally posted by Great VengeanceI can't. Arguing against "like looking into the heart of the Force," is something else.
How can you argue against the heart of the force?
Besides, 4000 years later that heart's getting tired. Gonna have to get a new heart, like say, LotF Luke. And maybe a Brain of the Force, like say, DE Palpatine.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I seem to recall a lot of people talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were when he was matched up against someone who wasn't say, Darth Sidious.
I don't have nearly enough breadcrumbs to get back home from this maze of irrelevance, Janus. "I seem to recall..." is not really a solid basis for anything and "a lot of people were talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were..." is irrelevant unless you can identify me as one of them. Since Maul hasn't demonstrated anything approaching a great command of the Force, aside from its physical aspects, I would question the people and sources who state that he is "teh uberz!!1!" with the Force. Because he's not.
But somehow when this fight comes up you write him off as a "nonfactor"? Really? A Sith lord which is a nonfactor? Couldn't he generate lightning? Use TK? Throw bricks and chamber pots at Sidious? Would he just roll into a fetal position and do nothing? Ha. That begs for proof.
You seem to change choice of logic at whim, Janus. One wonders if the remainder of the thread will devolve into me pointing out how you never used such 'logic' before (except, of course, in threads against Darth Sidious). But I'll respond charitably: that Maul is 'a Sith Lord' does not mean that he is anything approaching special. That he is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith Lords in galactic history? That is a better reason, but the Complete Visual Dictionary goes onto elucidate that the majority of Maul's training is in regards to his lightsaber and Force-assisted physical abilities. Compare this to the likes of the Emperor, who concentrates on a more scholarly approach to the Force. If it is your assertion that Maul would even provide a quaint distraction for the Emperor, it is your burden to prove.
Dooku himself would be a considerable opponent.
In that he wouldn't just roll over and die, being an established prodigy. But he has no chance alone.
Even if Sidious beat Dooku, he could not hope to combat a near-equal in a setting where he was in danger from Maul.
Fortunately, Sidious isn't fighting a near equal, and you haven't established the danger from Darth Maul in the context of a strict Force fight.
Even if Maul was completely unable to use the Force offensively, he could still close in while Dooku spammed Sith Lightning or otherwise used TK to distract and combat Sidious.
I think you're confused. This is in context of a Force fight.
I think you're underestimating the level of opposition your favorite character has in this match, as usual.
Yes, and I think you didn't take the time to read my rebuttal, but merely identified "LOLZ SIDIOUS WINS! CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN!" and jumped into the fray for no particular reason other than to push a beaten and long-dead agenda. You will, no doubt, continue to push that agenda and then a few weeks later, you will leave and come back in another six months.
Do us all a favor, Janus. Let's try something different. How about you leave your opinions to yourself, I'll do the same, and we argue the facts?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I seem to recall a lot of people talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were when he was matched up against someone who wasn't say, Darth Sidious. But somehow when this fight comes up you write him off as a "nonfactor"? Really? A Sith lord which is a nonfactor? Couldn't he generate lightning? Use TK? Throw bricks and chamber pots at Sidious? Would he just roll into a fetal position and do nothing? Ha. That begs for proof.Dooku himself would be a considerable opponent. Even if Sidious beat Dooku, he could not hope to combat a near-equal in a setting where he was in danger from Maul. Even if Maul was completely unable to use the Force offensively, he could still close in while Dooku spammed Sith Lightning or otherwise used TK to distract and combat Sidious.
I think you're underestimating the level of opposition your favorite character has in this match, as usual.
Maul's not nearly as powerful as Palpatine is with the Force and Palpatine didn't have an intention of being replaced by him. If Dooku starts spamming lightning when Maul rushes in, Maul's going to find himself demoted from 'Apprentice' to 'Meat Shield.'
As formidable as Dooku is, he's not capable of competing with Palpatine, someone who purposefully made sure Maul would never be a threat or anything more than a vicious weapon. The difference Maul makes here is the time is takes for Palpatine to snap his neck in the force, or throw him headfirst into the wall.
I don't have nearly enough breadcrumbs to get back home from this maze of irrelevance, Janus. "I seem to recall..." is not really a solid basis for anything and "a lot of people were talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were..." is irrelevant unless you can identify me as one of them. Since Maul hasn't demonstrated anything approaching a great command of the Force, aside from its physical aspects, I would question the people and sources who state that he is "teh uberz!!1!" with the Force. Because he's not.
Actually, I seem to recall a very strong pro-Maul supporter base back when Maul came up in debates earlier this year. I could spend the better part of an hour trying to find them, but for what reason? Even if I am somehow wrong, this doesn't negate the problem with your stance.
You seem to change choice of logic at whim, Janus. One wonders if the remainder of the thread will devolve into me pointing out how you never used such 'logic' before (except, of course, in threads against Darth Sidious). But I'll respond charitably: that Maul is 'a Sith Lord' does not mean that he is anything approaching special. That he is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith Lords in galactic history? That is a better reason, but the Complete Visual Dictionary goes onto elucidate that the majority of Maul's training is in regards to his lightsaber and Force-assisted physical abilities. Compare this to the likes of the Emperor, who concentrates on a more scholarly approach to the Force. If it is your assertion that Maul would even provide a quaint distraction for the Emperor, it is your burden to prove.
So someone who dueled and killed two extremely powerful Jedi Masters and routinely killed assassins, droids, etc. and spent his life training to be a Sith Lord would be a mere fly against Darth Sidious who would be occupied fighting one of the best Jedi in generations who had turned to the Dark Side and been in training for over a decade?
Did I nail down that position for you well enough? The fact that you could just "write off" Darth Maul as nothing and then furthermore write off Dooku as nothing shows your bias clearer than anything I could ever say.
In that he wouldn't just roll over and die, being an established prodigy. But he has no chance alone.
An established prodigy, and by your own admission one of the greatest Jedi Masters in thousands of years, and a powerful Dark Lord who fared well against Yoda twice. Yes, he has no chance alone. And with his nonfactor Darth Maul with him, he'll lose inside of what? Thirty seconds? Will Sidious do a Force Bomb and kill them both? This being the same Sidious who was schooled by Yoda and put on his ass by Mace, neither of which had a near-equal partner to supplement their skills and neither of which had access to the Dark Side which is clearly better for use in combat?
Really now? This keeps getting better and better.
Fortunately, Sidious isn't fighting a near equal, and you haven't established the danger from Darth Maul in the context of a strict Force fight.
I do note that this is in context of the Force Fight. I haven't written off anyone as a "nonfactor" in this issue, so the burden of proof is yours to show how Maul is a nonfactor, preferably with an argument that's valid and some sources. Otherwise, you're just reasserting your bias.
You should also note that my stance is pretty much this:
I don't see Sidious drastically winning every single match against these two by virtue of being somehow greatly superior. The gap between Dooku and Sidious is smaller than you've ever conceded to, and likewise Maul - while not near to Sidious in skill - is still a powerful and deadly opponent who has trained his whole life to kill using the Force and his saber. He's not a kid or anything. Even if he only chucks bricks at Sidious, this is a distraction which can unbalance things. Sidious would need to focus on Dooku to overcome him, because Dooku again is not some run-of-the-mill chump. He's a bonafide Force Prodigy.
You've magically concluded that Maul = nothing and has no bearing on the fight, and Dooku is a nonfactor to Sidious and therefore would die without any chance of winning, despite having assistance.
YOUR stance begs for proof, Gideon. You've made heavy, absolute assertions which require proof. So please, instead of slinging around opinions, why don't you entertain me with a well-thought out reply which builds your case, instead of "lol you have an agenda you hate cideous but cideos is the best because some book said so but i cant be bothered to structure together an actual argument so you lose *ad hominem*"
LS:
Maul's not nearly as powerful as Palpatine is with the Force and Palpatine didn't have an intention of being replaced by him. If Dooku starts spamming lightning when Maul rushes in, Maul's going to find himself demoted from 'Apprentice' to 'Meat Shield.'As formidable as Dooku is, he's not capable of competing with Palpatine, someone who purposefully made sure Maul would never be a threat or anything more than a vicious weapon. The difference Maul makes here is the time is takes for Palpatine to snap his neck in the force, or throw him headfirst into the wall.
Again, burden of proof. You and Gideon are both just slinging out observations mixed with assertions. I want something more than that, please. I've made a tentative stance that I don't see Maul being a nonfactor, and that Gideon's assertion of that rings as unsupported. Yours does too, although as usual yours is much more polite.
I'm sure you can manage to put some instances of Maul's force use into context using source, right? I mean, if you can't, what leg do you stand on?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Actually, I seem to recall a very strong pro-Maul supporter base back when Maul came up in debates earlier this year. I could spend the better part of an hour trying to find them, but for what reason? Even if I am somehow wrong, this doesn't negate the problem with your stance.
Even if I were part of a pro-Maul supporter base, Janus, what does that have to do with his mastery of the Force? Nowhere will you find a statement linking me to the ridiculous idea that Darth Maul is some heavyweight with Force powers, because the sources to prove that aren't there. He is stated to have "far greater" dark side knowledge than the Nightsister Mighella, which leads me to conclude that, contrary to popular belief, he can summon and wield Force lightning, but merely doesn't due to his propensity for physical and martial attacks.
So someone who dueled and killed two extremely powerful Jedi Masters
I'm not interested in your shaded perceptions. Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara are notified for extremely capable technique as swordsmen; nowhere are they noted for being prodigious or 'extremely powerful' in context of Force aptitude.
For the record? He didn't kill either one of them with a startling command of the Force.
and routinely killed assassins,
Which speaks to his remarkable physical discipline and mastery of the lightsaber, not to his Force aptitude..
For the record? He didn't kill any of them with a startling command of the Force.
droids, etc.
Luke Skywalker destroyed millions of highly trained Imperial personnel when he blew up the Death Star. Could he stand up to the Emperor as of the Battle of Yavin? That's exactly the kind of logic you're providing; droids and assassins are all well and good, but they're a far cry from a Dark Lord of the Sith, especially in the context of a Force fight.
and spent his life training to be a Sith Lord would be a mere fly against Darth Sidious who would be occupied fighting one of the best Jedi in generations who had turned to the Dark Side and been in training for over a decade?
In the strict arena of a Force fight? You're damn right, since, you know, you haven't actually provided a ghost of a shred of evidence to suggest that Darth Maul has the power to stand up to his Master.
Did I nail down that position for you well enough? The fact that you could just "write off" Darth Maul as nothing and then furthermore write off Dooku as nothing shows your bias clearer than anything I could ever say.
Your carpentry skills leave something to be desired. The fact that you would just somehow imbue Darth Maul with strength of the Force that he is not stated or shown to possess and suggest that he would somehow stand up to his prodigiously gifted Master and then accuse me of writing off Dooku as "nothing" when I simply said that he has no chance of victory really doesn't say a lot for you, Janus. I apologize for not subscribing to the delusion that Count Dooku was as strong or stronger than Darth Sidious as you once did, but perhaps you'll come to see that by simply saying that Sidious is more powerful than a given character, it doesn't mean we're biased.
An established prodigy, and by your own admission one of the greatest Jedi Masters in thousands of years, and a powerful Dark Lord who fared well against Yoda twice. Yes, he has no chance alone.
He "fared well" against Yoda on Geonosis in that he survived an attack from his former Master (a former Master who didn't want to kill him) and "fared well" against Yoda on Vjun in that he survived an attack against his former Master on a world that enhanced his dark side mastery. In both cases, he retreated.
Compare that to Darth Sidious, who "fared well" against Yoda in a neutral environment when the Jedi Master sought to commit regicide. Though I know how much you like to compare the three situations, they aren't the same.
And with his nonfactor Darth Maul with him, he'll lose inside of what? Thirty seconds? Will Sidious do a Force Bomb and kill them both?
I never said that Dooku would get "owned." I said, by himself, he has no chance of victory against a Master who held him in servile submission and tamed his "independent spirit" for over a decade.
This being the same Sidious who was schooled by Yoda and put on his ass by Mace, neither of which had a near-equal partner to supplement their skills and neither of which had access to the Dark Side which is clearly better for use in combat?
Yes, Janus, please keep it up. Dooku "fared well" against Yoda, but Sidious was schooled? Tantamount to lying, Janus, especially when you conveniently forgot to include the context of their situations. And, tell me, how does being defeated by Windu in the grounds of a lightsaber duel translate to inferiority in a Force fight?
Really now? This keeps getting better and better.
Yes, your miscarriage of truth is terribly amusing.
I do note that this is in context of the Force Fight. I haven't written off anyone as a "nonfactor" in this issue, so the burden of proof is yours to show how Maul is a nonfactor, preferably with an argument that's valid and some sources. Otherwise, you're just reasserting your bias.
Janus, not all of us share your habitual truth shadings. I'm not going to ask you again: you either put this in an objective light, or don't debate this with me at all.
The rest, I'll deal with later.
LS:
Again, burden of proof. You and Gideon are both just slinging out observations mixed with assertions. I want something more than that, please. I've made a tentative stance that I don't see Maul being a nonfactor, and that Gideon's assertion of that rings as unsupported. Yours does too, although as usual yours is much more polite.
Individually he know neither Dooku nor Maul are capable of competing with Palpatine given Lucas's own words in 'The Making of Revenge of the Sith' were "you need to be Mace and Yoda to compete with The Emperor." and Maul's too much a nonfactor here...his abilities in the force can't hold out to Palpatine, he's far inferior to Palpatine in sabers and Palpatine knows every single move he can make. Dooku doesn't have the same issue, but Palpatine fed him Dark Side knowledge rather sparingly as he never intended Dooku to be the permanent apprentice.
Much as I think Maul is an exemplary combatant and is a problem for almost anybody, he is matched up here against the one being against whom he is a nonfactor.
I'm sure you can manage to put some instances of Maul's force use into context using source, right? I mean, if you can't, what leg do you stand on? [/B]
He's just way too inferior to Palpatine in the Dark Side to have ever been a threat when he died.
Originally posted by LS
Individually he know neither Dooku nor Maul are capable of competing with Palpatine given Lucas's own words in 'The Making of Revenge of the Sith' were "you need to be Mace and Yoda to compete with The Emperor."
The problem I have with that is threefold - the first is that Dooku was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu during his time as a Jedi. Mace has improved since then, but so has Dooku. "An even more powerful Sith Lord."
Secondly - Lucas could've been referring to only Jedi characters. Dooku had no desire to overthrow Sidious, afterall.
And thirdly - Lucas probably doesn't know what he's talking about. It wouldn't be the first time. Consider the fact that Mace believed Obi-Wan was the best choice to face General Greivous (an opponent he'd already beaten twice), Mr. 20 strikes per second. That, and that Anakin was called the strongest and fastest Jedi of his generation - who by all indications was a superior duelist to Obi-Wan. And who absolutely destroyed Count Dooku (who once again, was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu).
Originally posted by EnyalusThe problem I have with that is threefold - the first is that Dooku was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu during his time as a Jedi. Mace has improved since then, but so has Dooku. "An even more powerful Sith Lord."
Simply put, it doesn't matter if you have a problem with it. Not in the Slightest[/B]
Secondly - Lucas could've been referring to only Jedi characters. Dooku had no desire to overthrow Sidious, afterall.
Anakin's inclusion seems to overrule 'only Jedi' and at no point does he specify.
And thirdly - Lucas probably doesn't know what he's talking about. It wouldn't be the first time. Consider the fact that Mace believed Obi-Wan was the best choice to face General Greivous (an opponent he'd already beaten twice), Mr. 20 strikes per second. That, and that Anakin was called the strongest and fastest Jedi of his generation - who by all indications was a superior duelist to Obi-Wan. And who absolutely destroyed Count Dooku (who once again, was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu). [/B]
Oh well. His word is still law and G-canon.
Debating Windu versus Dooku is pointless. As Jedi, both were highly regarded swordsmen, but the databank and Power of the Jedi Sourcebook stated that Yoda and Dooku have defeated him in combat before. Is that an explicit indicator of superiority? No. It simply means that, sometime during their career, Dooku defeated Windu at least once in a sparring match.
Personally? Even though Windu defeated the man who held the great, untamable Count Dooku in an atmosphere of fear for his final thirteen years, I would say that there's nothing to indicate that Windu possesses superior skill. Dooku has spent seven decades refining and perfecting Makashi, which is the ultimate dueling form. His duel with Windu on Boz Pity suggested some sort of parity, even though he would instruct General Grievous's Magnaguards to blindside Windu so that he could escape. Moreover, the narrator of Dark Rendezvous would state that "perhaps only" Mace Windu would be Count Dooku's equal on neutral ground.
The fact of the matter is that Mace Windu, even in his duel with Darth Sidious, did not demonstrate initial superior ability. Despite the advantages of superior numbers and being in combat stance, his teammates were slaughtered in quick succession, and was unable to overcome Sidious even with the assistance of Kit Fisto, a "celebrated swordsmen" according to the Complete Visual Dictionary. He was pushed back into the main office, slowly submerging himself into Vaapad and relieving himself of all Jedi restraint. When he did that, he and the Sith Lord reached impasse according to the novelization.
Windu's defeat was a legitimate one, but, contrary to popular belief, he didn't own Sidious. He gained an advantage against someone whom the novelization regarded as an equal. Am I surprised? No. Windu was able to perform on the frontlines throughout the Clone Wars whereas Palpatine's lightsaber was buried in a statue for thirteen years. That said, Windu is a master of Juyo, which according to Fight Saber requires one to be a "high end master of multiple forms."
The obvious conclusion is that it could go either way. But I would personally believe that Dooku is superior in terms of technique.
I'll be posting the merits of Dooku versus Sidious soon.
Debating Count Dooku versus Darth Sidious is even more hopeless for those who wish to take the Count's side. When I said that Dooku "had no chance," I didn't mean for that to imply that Sidious would just steamroll over him in a few short seconds. I meant to convey that the battle would be something akin to the narrative present when Anoon Bondara engaged Darth Maul in a suicidal duel over Coruscant; the narrative went to say that Bondara knew that he was outmatched, and though Maul would work for his kill, there was no way that he could have won. As Janus correctly points out, Count Dooku has a prodigious command of the Force and is regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi in galactic history -- and an even greater Lord of the Sith. But, keep the following in mind:
Janus would have you believe that Count Dooku "fared well" against Yoda twice and that Darth Sidious "was schooled" by the very same Jedi. You must excuse his pettiness; it borders on outright deception. Yoda confronted Dooku twice throughout the duration of the Clone Wars.
During the Battle of Geonosis, Yoda explicitly tells Windu that Count Dooku "must be captured" before he rallies more systems to his cause. He is never shown to entertain the idea of murdering the Count and chooses to save the lives of Skywalker and Kenobi rather than continue the duel or stall until sufficient backup arrived. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu would lament on his own decision not to kill Dooku when he had the chance, and reveals that it was out of affection for his old friend that he didn't butcher the traitor when he had the chance. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Yoda would explicitly tell Obi-Wan that "any [true] Jedi" would be willing to sacrifice any of their number if it meant bringing the Clone Wars a moment closer to its end. A clear sign that he regretted his decision to turn and save Kenobi and Skywalker. Moreover, analyze the duel itself: Dooku uses telekinesis and Force lightning to attack Yoda numerous times in an opening salvo; of those multiple times, Yoda responses offensively only once, and that is ironically the last time that Dooku decides to carry on with the Force. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was not attacking Dooku to his greatest extent.
During the events of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Count Dooku offers Yoda a veiled truce if the Jedi agrees to meet Count Dooku alone on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side. Yoda knows and confesses that the whole thing is a trap, but goes to Vjun anyways in order to convert his former apprentice back to the light side. Despite the fact that Dooku is in the middle of a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force and Yoda professes an unwillingness to kill Dooku (whereas the Count declares that he will "enjoy" killing Yoda), Dooku is still forced on the defensive, "sweat pouring down his body" in the effort to try to kill Yoda. Also keep in mind that Dooku initiated the fight by hurling a civilian out of a window, forcing Yoda to levitate her to the ground, all the while being attacked by his former Padawan. In the end, Dooku admits that Yoda has "overpowered" him and reveals that he placed a missile in high orbit to destroy the chateau and all Jedi present as a contingency plan. Yoda diverts the missile as Dooku flees.
The suggestion that Yoda and Dooku fought on equal terms is an outright lie. Dooku is inferior to Yoda in all ways and by a healthy margin.
Compare this to Yoda's battle with Darth Sidious in the Senate Rotunda. Keep in mind that Coruscant was a neutral environment and Yoda professed his intent to kill Sidious: "Destroy the Sith, we must!" He didn't entertain the notions of capture. He was going to commit regicide. So, we have a situation where the environment isn't metaphysically beneficial to Sidious, and where Yoda had the intention to kill. Despite that, the battle ended in a stalemate, with Yoda unarmed and forced to flee, according to the official databank.
When you compare the two Sith and their battles against Yoda, Darth Sidious ultimately comes out looking more impressive.