ROTS Sidious vs Dooku and Maul

Damn you, people. You can't ever keep it short, can you? That has to be the most bloody long page I've ever seen.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As far as the force mastery goes i say Sidious is way above Dooku. Dooku makes it noticeable by the way he harps on how powerful Sidious is, and how he is beyond power. If Dooku was close to Sidious do you think he would harp that much on how powerful Sidious was?

Yes. Especially given Dooku's supreme arrogance and belief in his prodigious abilities.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And I will just adress yours, since Crimzon is actually stupid enough to lecture me on A>B>C arguments and then come up with two A>B>C arguments to proof his point. Not worth my precious time.

I lol'd, actually. I was expecting some sort of refutal, not half-assed "not worth my time!" shit.

I'm aware that I used A>B>C logic. But that was simply to demonstrate how ridiculous, idiotic, and false your logic was.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I lol'd, actually. I was expecting some sort of refutal, not half-assed "not worth my time!" shit.

Oh. I'm so sorry, little flower. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by mentioning the fact that I think you posting is a great compilation of bullshit, not even worth reading it, much less wasting time answering it.

I'm aware that I used A>B>C logic. But that was simply to demonstrate how ridiculous, idiotic, and false your logic was.

[sarcasm]Oh sure, Sir.[/sarcasm]
And because it was just a demonstration, you actually expected some sort of refutal from me, correct? Despite the fact that labelling it a "demonstration" would make it even more nonsensical for me to reply to it, right?

Let's face the facts, Newbie: You came up with some not-so-well-thought-out argument and I totally owned you with one single sentence. Get over it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. I'm so sorry, little flower. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by mentioning the fact that I think you posting is a great compilation of bullshit, not even worth reading it, much less wasting time answering it.

Oh, I'm crushed. I must apologize for my insolence.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[sarcasm]Oh sure, Sir.[/sarcasm]
And because it was just a demonstration, you actually expected some sort of refutal from me, correct? Despite the fact that labelling it a "demonstration" would make it even more nonsensical for me to reply to it, right?

Right. You said that Maul and Dooku can beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel because they beat Mace before, or in Maul's case, because he beat someone on par with Mace. I displayed how Sidious was not only on par with, he actually overwhelmed and forced back Mace while he was fighting under the same conditions that Dooku would face during his original sparring matches with Mace, and during their duel in Obsession.

Sidious also happened to perform better against Yoda, although Yoda happened to be bloodlusted in his fight against Sidious. As you can see, Sidious' displays against Mace and Yoda considerably trump Dooku's. His feats of speed and agility are better, too. I would much like to see you put a reasonable argument as to why either Dooku or Maul can beat Sidious in a duel. You obviously can't, otherwise you wouldn't have resorted to your condescending 'retort'.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[Let's face the facts, Newbie: You came up with some not-so-well-thought-out argument and I totally owned you with one single sentence. Get over it.

Nah. Let's face the real facts, not the ones running through your brain at the moment ("lol a noobie he's not worth my time!"😉; I crushed your pathetic attempt at an A>B>C argument, and you couldn't put an argument back.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Right. You said that Maul and Dooku can beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel because they beat Mace before, or in Maul's case, because he beat someone on par with Mace. I displayed how Sidious was not only on par with, he actually overwhelmed and forced back Mace while he was fighting under the same conditions that Dooku would face during his original sparring matches with Mace, and during their duel in Obsession.

Nope, newbie. I said there is the possibility that Dooku and Maul would be able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, because they did what they did. Did I attempt to hand it out as absolute proof that they can do the job? Nope.

And sorry. It doesn't matter that Sidious pushed Mace back. If you want to follow the supposed A>B>C argument, then Maul defeated a person on par with Mace Windu and Dooku did defeat Mace Windu during their practice sessions [and he did the same to Qui-Gon]. When, exactly, did Sidious defeat a person on par with Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight? He get's put on his ass by Windu [unlike Dooku] and get's probably disarmed by Yoda [once more unlike Dook]. So I don't really see a point to argue that Sidious > Maul or Sidious > Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability, while there are quite enough to argue the contrary.

Sidious also happened to perform better against Yoda, although Yoda happened to be bloodlusted in his fight against Sidious. As you can see, Sidious' displays against Mace and Yoda considerably trump Dooku's.

I didn't see the Count getting disarmed by Yoda, neither did I see him getting put on his ass by Mace Windu. So the claim that Sidious "performed better" against them is absolutely stupid.

His feats of speed and agility are better, too.

Yeah. Based on what? Dooku survived equally long against Yoda in a lightsaber duel than Sidious did - yet he was fighting the Jedi Master on equal ground and also managed to get away with his lightsaber in hand, twice. The same against Mace Windu whom he defeated at least once and escaped once again.

I would much like to see you put a reasonable argument as to why either Dooku or Maul can beat Sidious in a duel. You obviously can't, otherwise you wouldn't have resorted to your condescending 'retort'.

Yeah, right, newbie. Let's see:

a) Darth Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade. Fact.

b) Dooku has been noted to be a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat", on par with Mace Windu, yet more powerful following Yoda's words and the Counts force displays throughout the saga. His claims to saber fame include the defeats of duellist like: Sora Bulq, Tholme, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Qui-Gon Jinn and - on top of that - Mace Windu himself. That aside from being one of the most powerful individuals popping up in the Jedi temple in it's entire history, and an even greater Sith Lord. That aside from fighting with just one hand most of the time with enough physical strength to fend of Skywalker [cyborg arm] and Kenobi of simultaneously, and keep up a saber-lock with Yoda with one hand while force crushing that nice metal structure to drop it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat. Oh right: There are none, given the fact that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda and put on his ass by Windu. The latter was already beaten by Dooku and he encountered the first on equal ground and still went out of the lightsaber fight in a better position than Sidious did.

c) Darth Maul? The guy is a beast in terms of physical condition and lightsaber skill, focusing entirely on his martial arts skilled aided by the force. He's fast enough to go after a Skyhopper on his feet and catch the vehicle [notice that those things reach speeds up to 850 km/h] and also fast enough to cut his way through a permacrete wall and a permacrete floor and speed through both of them in the same time a rocket from a wrist-rocket-launcher needs to travel the distance of a few metres.

That aside from the fact that he managed to single-handly wipe out the Black Sun and was capable of outduelling an Apprentice/Master tag team containing a duellist on par with TPM Mace Windu [after having forced said guy to retreat on Tatooine, despite the fact that he was injured], ran through the Jedi Orders Battlemaster Anoon Bondara who's lightsaber ability was "second to none". And, of course, he also managed to almost kill Sidious with a spontaneous burst of anger - after spending weeks on some remote planet, being hungry and chased by a horde of killer droids and also injured.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Unless you want to come up with the fact that he was able of beating an injured and hungry Maul, who probably hasn't slept over weeks [while still being in shape with a lightsaber, which isn't the case for RotS Sidious] or the fact that his apprentice feared him, I wonder what that reasons would be.

Nah. Let's face the real facts, not the ones running through your brain at the moment ("lol a noobie he's not worth my time!"😉; I crushed your pathetic attempt at an A>B>C argument, and you couldn't put an argument back.

Let's face the real facts, not the ones circulating in your - otherwise empty - head. There is no reason to put Sidious over Maul, much less Dooku in terms of raw lightsaber ability and enough reasons to put them over their master, who apparently had to keep them in line by having them fear him. Especially if you consider the fact that, in the only recorded confrontation between Sidious and one of his apprentices, an already tired, hungry and injured Maul almost managed to kill Sidious - when Sidious was still "in training" with the lightsaber.

Sorry. Post was accidentally, well, 'released' while I was still typing something. Wait 'till I edit it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nope, newbie.

Stupid condescending comment numero uno.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I said there is the possibility that Dooku and Maul would be able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, because they did what they did. Did I attempt to hand it out as absolute proof that they can do the job? Nope.

I'll concede that both will give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat. I suppose Dooku has a chance of beating Sidious in a lightsaber confrontation, but it's certainly a relatively negative one. Definetly less than 5/10, IMO.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And sorry. It doesn't matter that Sidious pushed Mace back. If you want to follow the supposed A>B>C argument, then Maul defeated a person on par with Mace Windu and Dooku did defeat Mace Windu during their practice sessions [and he did the same to Qui-Gon].

And here you, once again, ignore the fact that Maul defeated someone supposedly 'on par' with Mace, not Mace himself- which is a very different matter. After trashing Anoon Bondara, he also happened to find interest in a confrontation with Mace Windu. Oh, and did I happen to mention the fact that Mace Windu would have grown far more powerful than he was in TPM by RotS? Or that his greatest advantage- Vaapad's superconducting loop- would fail to work against Qui-Gon, or for that matter, Dooku, at least during their original sparring matches in which the Count happened to beat Mace? Oh, yeah, I mentioned that before. Nice job glossing over evidence.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When, exactly, did Sidious defeat a person on par with Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight?

He utterly owned Maul, and if we're to go by your stupid logic, that Maul is 'on par' with Mace.

He never defeated someone on par with Mace, no. But when he and Mace fought on equal ground, with Mace being forced to rely purely on his natural abilities and skill, Mace wasn't just forced back and outclassed in almost every conceivable manner (including speed), Sidious actually gained an advantage over him although he was fighting Kit Fisto simultaneously. That Kit Fisto is the dude who, you know, was considerably superior to a one year-after AotC Obi-Wan? So, yeah. Sidious owned that Fisto in about five seconds, although Fisto was fighting in tandem with Mace Windu, one of the best lightsaber combatants in history.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He get's put on his ass by Windu [unlike Dooku] and get's probably disarmed by Yoda [once more unlike Dook]. So I don't really see a point to argue that Sidious > Maul or Sidious > Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability, while there are quite enough to argue the contrary.

You totally love ignoring circumstance and evidence, don't you? Mace, even while his Vaapad granted him Sidious' superior physical capabilities, was still at an 'impasse' with the Sith Lord- only his Shatterpoint enabled him to defeat Sidious, while Sidious was forced to apparently lower his speed in order to form a force-enhanced grip on the slippery ledge. Dooku happened to fight Mace while Mace was vastly less powerful and didn't have Vaapad's advantages to utilize. Yoda didn't necessarily disarm Sidious, ye know. The script refers directly to the movie, and that movie didn't display that- the novel, which was written with personal approval from George Lucas, didn't mention anything about Yoda disarming Sidious. That doesn't directly contradict the movie, and therefore, it's canonical. There certainly isn't definitive evidence to claim that Yoda actually disarmed Sidious.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't see the Count getting disarmed by Yoda, neither did I see him getting put on his ass by Mace Windu. So the claim that Sidious "performed better" against them is absolutely stupid.

Right. Which is why the Count was outclassed by a Yoda who was holding back, while Sidious managed to fight a bloodlusted Yoda equally and actually force Yoda on the defensive. And why Sidious outclassed Mace before Mace's superconducting loop came into play.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Based on what? Dooku survived equally long against Yoda in a lightsaber duel than Sidious did - yet he was fighting the Jedi Master on equal ground and also managed to get away with his lightsaber in hand, twice. The same against Mace Windu whom he defeated at least once and escaped once again.

Yoda was holding back and Dooku effin' ran away. Sidious fought Yoda to a standstill and put him on the defensive, despite Yoda performing all sorts of acrobatics. Ataru is a highly offensive style, too, so it will hardly be Yoda's preference to fight defensively.

Oh, and stop ignoring the fact that Sidious- in his natural abilities- is considerably superior to Mace, who is on par with Dooku at the very least.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah, right, newbie.

Condescending comment numero dos.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's see:

a) Darth Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade. Fact.

Yup. And was still capable of matching both Mace and Yoda.

Originally posted by Borbarad
b) Dooku has been noted to be a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat", on par with Mace Windu, yet more powerful following Yoda's words and the Counts force displays throughout the saga.

IHis claims to saber fame include the defeats of duellist like: Sora Bulq, Tholme, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Qui-Gon Jinn and - on top of that - Mace Windu himself. That aside from being one of the most powerful individuals popping up in the Jedi temple in it's entire history, and an even greater Sith Lord. That aside from fighting with just one hand most of the time with enough physical strength to fend of Skywalker [cyborg arm] and Kenobi of simultaneously, and keep up a saber-lock with Yoda with one hand while force crushing that nice metal structure to drop it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat. Oh right: There are none, given the fact that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda and put on his ass by Windu. The latter was already beaten by Dooku and he encountered the first on equal ground and still went out of the lightsaber fight in a better position than Sidious did.

c) Darth Maul? The guy is a beast in terms of physical condition and lightsaber skill, focusing entirely on his martial arts skilled aided by the force. He's fast enough to go after a Skyhopper on his feet and catch the vehicle [notice that those things reach speeds up to 850 km/h] and also fast enough to cut his way through a permacrete wall and a permacrete floor and speed through both of them in the same time a rocket from a wrist-rocket-launcher needs to travel the distance of a few metres.

That aside from the fact that he managed to single-handly wipe out the Black Sun and was capable of outduelling an Apprentice/Master tag team containing a duellist on par with TPM Mace Windu [after having forced said guy to retreat on Tatooine, despite the fact that he was injured], ran through the Jedi Orders Battlemaster Anoon Bondara who's lightsaber ability was "second to none". And, of course, he also managed to almost kill Sidious with a spontaneous burst of anger - after spending weeks on some remote planet, being hungry and chased by a horde of killer droids and also injured.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Unless you want to come up with the fact that he was able of beating an injured and hungry Maul, who probably hasn't slept over weeks [while still being in shape with a lightsaber, which isn't the case for RotS Sidious] or the fact that his apprentice feared him, I wonder what that reasons would be.

Let's face the real facts, not the ones circulating in your - otherwise empty - head. There is no reason to put Sidious over Maul, much less Dooku in terms of raw lightsaber ability and enough reasons to put them over their master, who apparently had to keep them in line by having them fear him. Especially if you consider the fact that, in the only recorded confrontation between Sidious and one of his apprentices, an already tired, hungry and injured Maul almost managed to kill Sidious - when Sidious was still "in training" with the lightsaber. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, my comp went nuts and my argument was sent before I could finish it. Here's the rest of it, anyway:

Originally posted by Borbarad
His claims to saber fame include the defeats of duellist like: Sora Bulq, Tholme, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Qui-Gon Jinn and - on top of that - Mace Windu himself.

Oh, are you implying that Sidious can't defeat any of the combatants mentioned above? I'm sure he would beat the crap out of TPM Mace.

[QUOTE=11130364]Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from being one of the most powerful individuals popping up in the Jedi temple in it's entire history, and an even greater Sith Lord.

True. Unfortunately, Sidious happens to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from fighting with just one hand most of the time with enough physical strength to fend of Skywalker [cyborg arm]

Right, which is why the novel says that "each block aged him a decade". Sorry, Anakin utterly outclassed Dooku in physical strength- it's a large factor as to why Anakin was capable of destroying him the instant he 'decided to win'.

Originally posted by Borbarad
and Kenobi of simultaneously, and keep up a saber-lock with Yoda with one hand while force crushing that nice metal structure to drop it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.

That's nice for him. And it means he can beat Sidious how?

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat. Oh right: There are none, given the fact that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda and put on his ass by Windu. The latter was already beaten by Dooku and he encountered the first on equal ground and still went out of the lightsaber fight in a better position than Sidious did.

Your skilled in ignoring evidence are overwhelming. I concede.

Seriously, though, WTF? Sidious had demonstrated vastly superior feats of speed, agility, and sheer power, all the way from being able to blitz the hell out of two of the best swordsman in the Order's history, to outclassing Mace (minus superconducting loop) in a way Dooku simply couldn't, to performing much better against a less restrained Yoda, his displays- while fewer in number than the Count's- are superior.

Originally posted by Borbarad
c) Darth Maul? The guy is a beast in terms of physical condition and lightsaber skill, focusing entirely on his martial arts skilled aided by the force. He's fast enough to go after a Skyhopper on his feet and catch the vehicle [notice that those things reach speeds up to 850 km/h] and also fast enough to cut his way through a permacrete wall and a permacrete floor and speed through both of them in the same time a rocket from a wrist-rocket-launcher needs to travel the distance of a few metres.

Which is why he only identified Sidious as a blur. Sidious is faster, and by no small amount.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from the fact that he managed to single-handly wipe out the Black Sun and was capable of outduelling an Apprentice/Master tag team containing a duellist on par with TPM Mace Windu [after having forced said guy to retreat on Tatooine, despite the fact that he was injured],

'On par with Mace'? If anything, it was noted that dueling Qui-Gon and Mace caused Anoon to doubt his status as the Order's greatest swordsman. That at least implies that Mace mananged to defeat Anoon.

Originally posted by Borbarad
ran through the Jedi Orders Battlemaster Anoon Bondara who's lightsaber ability was "second to none". And, of course, he also managed to almost kill Sidious with a spontaneous burst of anger - after spending weeks on some remote planet, being hungry and chased by a horde of killer droids and also injured.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Unless you want to come up with the fact that he was able of beating an injured and hungry Maul, who probably hasn't slept over weeks [while still being in shape with a lightsaber, which isn't the case for RotS Sidious] or the fact that his apprentice feared him, I wonder what that reasons would be.

Nah. When they fought at first, Sidious utterly raped him- it's also worth to note that Maul, as a highly physical Sith and an engine of destruction, is likely to be trained to completely ignore pain, just like how Palpatine mananged to feed his own pain to increase the force of his lightning.

Oh, and don't forget to mention that Sidious wasn't willing to kill Maul, was using a training lightsaber, and was caught off-guard by Maul's sudden assault.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's face the real facts, not the ones circulating in your - otherwise empty - head.

How deliciously witty.

Originally posted by Borbarad
There is no reason to put Sidious over Maul, much less Dooku in terms of raw lightsaber ability and enough reasons to put them over their master, who apparently had to keep them in line by having them fear him.

In your head, maybe. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Sidious > Maul and Dooku.

Oh, and how else would he keep them in line? I'm sorry, but that's utterly ridiculous. Just like Marka Ragnos before him, it's the Sith way of keeping their followers in line- by having them fear their superior power.

Originally posted by Borbarad
confrontation between Sidious and one of his apprentices, an already tired, hungry and injured Maul almost managed to kill Sidious - when Sidious was still "in training" with the lightsaber.

Already dealt with.

I preface this by saying that I'm not going to bother responding to every single statement you've made, Nai, because I believe Crimzon has done a very good job with his rebuttal, and it is a waste of time on all of our parts to make a separate argument that will ultimately, for the most part, offer the same thing that his does. But, as before, I will corroborate and address some particular points of interest.

First, I am of the opinion that it is a high possibility that Count Dooku and Darth Maul could overcome Darth Sidious in the context of a lightsaber fight. Dooku's prodigious swordsmanship has already been identified and explored, and the simple fact is that Darth Maul is a particularly lethal combatant as well. Maul was disciplined to a training regimen that is simply ridiculous in extent and depth, "pushing his physical and Force assisted abilities to the utmost," becoming indoctrinated in various martial arts, mastering Juyo (which requires its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms" [Fight Saber]), and being unambiguously stated to be "one of the most dangerous" and "highly trained" Sith apprentices in galactic history. As far as technical ability is concerned, there can be no doubt that those two are, at the very least, equal to their Master, who has not been seen using a lightsaber in over a decade.

But I must retract my former opinion that Sidious would be defeated by them even in that arena. While the possibility is still great, Count Dooku's own musings in Revenge of the Sith indicate that he "always fought alone" and was conditioned to fight without aid. Darth Maul, similarly, carries the same trait. There is no great partnership or coordination here. Moreover, if I may borrow a source provided by Publius:

In Episode I Journal: Darth Maul, he demonstrated the ability to "move faster than [Darth Maul's] eye can follow," and wielded a lightsaber with such precision that he traced Maul's outline with its blade so closely that "one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle" would have killed him.

So, due to Palpatine's far greater command of the Force, he is able to wield a lightsaber faster than Darth Maul's eye can follow. As potent a warrior as Maul is, he cannot fight what he cannot see. Likewise, keep in mind that Darth Maul's near victory over Darth Sidious during his trials was the product of anger. Sidious goaded and mocked him, stating that he would not be chosen as Sidious's Sith apprentice. Maul lashed out in hatred and Sidious simply deflected the blows, albeit barely. That isn't a duel to the death, and it should be noted that Maul also bit Sidious and was disarmed a second time.

Another point of interest is the comparisons between Dooku's fights with Yoda with Sidious's. The cold truth to the matter is that, in both occasions, Yoda's priority was to disable or capture Count Dooku. Dooku, by admission, was "overpowered" by Yoda even on Vjun, a planet steeped with the dark side. Compare that to Sidious battling a Yoda on a neutral setting where the Jedi Master made it unambiguous that his intent was regicide. So looking at it in the proper context, Sidious's performance was greater. After all, Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda on a world that enhanced his dark side powers.

Crimzon, you need to clarify two things for me; how Sidious "outclassed [Mace] in almost every conceivable way," and how Mace improved "vastly" between TPM and RotS. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance on the matter, but those two points in particular need to be addressed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Crimzon, you need to clarify two things for me; how Sidious "outclassed [Mace] in almost every conceivable way," and how Mace improved "vastly" between TPM and RotS. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance on the matter, but those two points in particular need to be addressed.

No problem.

When Mace and his posse arrived to arrest Palpatine, they got into battle stances- Palpatine soon attacked them and utterly decimated both Agen Kolar (noted next to Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker as one of the order's best) and Saesee Tiin before Mace could even move. He proceeded to own Fisto and force Mace back, causing Mace to 'fight for his life'. And while Sidious didn't school him in, say, the same way Dooku schooled AotC Obi-Wan, he had the advantage in almost every category. Until Mace replicated Sidious' dark side benefits and proceeded to beat him.

Between TPM and RotS, Mace Windu not only participated in a vast amount of powers, he would logically have 13 years to enhance his prowess with his Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities. Didn't he get a noticeable power-up in Shatterpoint alone? Anyway, I'm certain that he had sufficient time and experience to increase his abilities by a very large amount.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'll concede that both will give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat. I suppose Dooku has a chance of beating Sidious in a lightsaber confrontation, but it's certainly a relatively negative one. Definetly less than 5/10, IMO.

Based on what?

And here you, once again, ignore the fact that Maul defeated someone supposedly 'on par' with Mace, not Mace himself- which is a very different matter.

It is? Based on what exactly? It is a mere fact that Qui-Gon and Mace were equals in lightsaber combat. None of them could claim an advantage over the other, although Qui-Gon is believed to have been able to beat Mace in lightsaber combat when he was younger. Now Maul simply defeated him by superior skill. Something that Mace Windu didn't manage to do. And Dooku did defeat Mace himself as well as he did defeat a younger Qui-Gon Jinn.

After trashing Anoon Bondara, he also happened to find interest in a confrontation with Mace Windu. Oh, and did I happen to mention the fact that Mace Windu would have grown far more powerful than he was in TPM by RotS?

Since when do force users make quantum leaps in terms of lightsaber ability and combat prowess between there 40s and there 50s, eh? You're essentially attempting to tell me that Mace Windu did develop Vaapad any further, after working on that style already for more than 20 years? And that he somehow managed to develop far more combat prowess, when he was already a living legend in times of TPM? I somehow doubt that.

Especially when you have Qui-Gon Jinn claiming that he could have beaten Mace, if he was younger, implying that a Jedi's overall ability in terms of combat would rather decline than improve in high age [physical condition goes down, force powers go up].

Or that his greatest advantage- Vaapad's superconducting loop- would fail to work against Qui-Gon, or for that matter, Dooku, at least during their original sparring matches in which the Count happened to beat Mace? Oh, yeah, I mentioned that before. Nice job glossing over evidence.

Didn't I just explain why we shouldn't take the "superconducting loop" thing literally? And while mentioning the "glossing over evidence", you might want to present me the evidence that said "superconducting loop" would just work against Dark Siders. If one literally "feeds" upon the force powers of his opponents, just to throw them back at them, this would either work regardless of the background of the opponent or it doesn't work like this at all.

He utterly owned Maul, and if we're to go by your stupid logic, that Maul is 'on par' with Mace.

He utterly owned Maul, who was already raddled by weeks of being hunted and injured. Really. It's not so that Sidious walked up to Maul in top shape and pimp-slapped him in a lightsaber duel. And Sidious was "in training" himself, when that happened, which doesn't apply for Sidious as he was in RotS.

He never defeated someone on par with Mace, no. But when he and Mace fought on equal ground, with Mace being forced to rely purely on his natural abilities and skill, Mace wasn't just forced back and outclassed in almost every conceivable manner (including speed), Sidious actually gained an advantage over him although he was fighting Kit Fisto simultaneously. That Kit Fisto is the dude who, you know, was considerably superior to a one year-after AotC Obi-Wan? So, yeah. Sidious owned that Fisto in about five seconds, although Fisto was fighting in tandem with Mace Windu, one of the best lightsaber combatants in history.

And in the end, Sidious was beaten. You have to understand, once and for all, that unlike Mace - who has to sink into his Vaapad first - Dooku and Maul would be at 100 % ability in the same split second the fight starts. Once Mace did reach the upper limit of his abilities, he wasn't even in need to waste a thought on combating the Sith Lord, driving him back through the office (as seen in the movie) and able to focus on the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord, finally disarming him.

You totally love ignoring circumstance and evidence, don't you? Mace, even while his Vaapad granted him Sidious' superior physical capabilities, was still at an 'impasse' with the Sith Lord- only his Shatterpoint enabled him to defeat Sidious, while Sidious was forced to apparently lower his speed in order to form a force-enhanced grip on the slippery ledge.

And you totally love to mix up the novel and the movie, right? In the novel, the both are continuing to fight on a slippery balcony. Did you see that happen in the movie? Nope? And even then, Mace was standing on equal slippery ground, which makes attempting to talk Mace's feat down by mentioning that "Sidious was standing on slippery ground" completely useless.

Dooku happened to fight Mace while Mace was vastly less powerful and didn't have Vaapad's advantages to utilize.

Wow. I'd love to see your proof for Mace being "vastly less powerful" in TPM than he was in RotS. If you've finished with the work to bring that in, you just have to proof that the "superconducting loop" does really exist and only works against Dark Siders. And then you just have to find an explanation, how Dooku could beat Mace Windu, who was already training in Vaapad for 27 years and had the advantage of his Shatterpoint ability already. After which you just have to argue around the fact that, following Yoda's judgement, Mace and Dooku are still equals in times of DR [with Yoda thinking that Mace is "maybe" on par with the Count on equal ground].

Yoda didn't necessarily disarm Sidious, ye know. The script refers directly to the movie, and that movie didn't display that- the novel, which was written with personal approval from George Lucas, didn't mention anything about Yoda disarming Sidious. That doesn't directly contradict the movie, and therefore, it's canonical. There certainly isn't definitive evidence to claim that Yoda actually disarmed Sidious.

Oh what the hell, newbie?
Elements appearing in the novel and not in the movie are just C-Canon. Fact. The script, written by Lucas himself, is a G-Canon source and because of that it superceedes the novel. Aside of that the idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is not contradicted by the movie, as the respective scene would happen between the last lightsaber sequence and the pod throwing sequence - which the movie doesn't show. The idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is just contradicted by the novels interpretation of the fight [which doesn't deal with actual fighting too much], which is still superceeded by the G-Canon script. I'm afraid.

Right. Which is why the Count was outclassed by a Yoda who was holding back, while Sidious managed to fight a bloodlusted Yoda equally and actually force Yoda on the defensive. And why Sidious outclassed Mace before Mace's superconducting loop came into play.

Actually, by Dooku's thoughts throughout DR, one can make the assumption that he was also holding back against his former Master, which makes this situation a complete non-issue.

And Yoda is "bloodlusted"? Have we forgotten that Yoda is a Jedi Master, or is "being fueled by Revenge" a new Light Side technique, eh? And wow...You're aware of the fact that Sidious is fighting Yoda from a position which is an advantage for the Sith Lord? Because, you may have noticed it, if they would both fight on equal ground, Sidious would have to deal with the fact that he can just attack Yoda when swinging downwards, which is not the best thing to do as a swordfighter.

And at that point, you may want to chose between the two possible interpretations: Was Yoda the superior duellist because he managed to "root Sidious", as you have posted in your first "argument"? Or did the Sith Lord attempt [and finally failed] to stay in the middle of the pod, because that was a position of advantage for him, which would lead to the suggestion, that he wouldn't be equal to Yoda on equal ground?

Yoda was holding back and Dooku effin' ran away. Sidious fought Yoda to a standstill and put him on the defensive, despite Yoda performing all sorts of acrobatics. Ataru is a highly offensive style, too, so it will hardly be Yoda's preference to fight defensively.

Yeah, right. Having to jump around on the curved surface of the chancellors podium is a great advantage for Yoda in comparison to stand on equal ground and attack from there. And I don't know where you get that "Yoda was put in the defensive" from, going by the fact that he forced Sidious out of the middle of the pod with offensive manouvers.

Oh, and stop ignoring the fact that Sidious- in his natural abilities- is considerably superior to Mace, who is on par with Dooku at the very least.

Mace Windu on par with Dooku? LOL. It's pretty obvious that Dooku is beyond Mace in terms of force abilties, considering his demonstrations throughout the saga, as well as Yoda's word on that issue. Lightsaber ability? Once more: Yoda thinks that the only person equal to Dooku in that department might be Mace Windu, meaning that even Yoda (who knows both Mace and Dooku) isn't so sure about that. Which means, technically, that Dooku could be above Mace in the saber department as well, and he definetely is when it comes to force mastery. So who's most likely going to win in a fight between those two, eh?

Yup. And was still capable of matching both Mace and Yoda.

Are you enjoying your ignorance of the facts? Let's have a look at both fights: Against Mace, Sidious was finally "overpowered" and put on his ass, once Mace reached his upper limit. Mace > Sidious. Against Yoda, he was apparently disarmed and forced to continue the fight without a lightsaber. Yoda > Sidious.

Dooku decided to leave in all confrontations with that two individuals, in two times with entire armies on their way to get him and while his confrontations with his former Master may have been as emotional for him as they were for Yoda. So what? Not conclusive. Essentially, from what we know, you could put Dooku in the same situations Sidious was in and he might actually fare better, if we ignore the relationship between him and Yoda.

True. Unfortunately, Sidious happens to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

And that turns him into a superior lightsaber combatant how exactly?

Right, which is why the novel says that "each block aged him a decade". Sorry, Anakin utterly outclassed Dooku in physical strength- it's a large factor as to why Anakin was capable of destroying him the instant he 'decided to win'.

And once again: Movie > novel. In fact, Anakin's cyborg arm was a complete non-issue, as we can see in the new Clone Wars movie. Hell....Dooku manages to block a full powered swing from Skywalker while holding his lightsaber with the left hand at the end of their duel on Tatooine. The fact that Anakin was able to beat the Count was coming from unleashing a great part of his full potential using his Dark emotions, which then turned all the skill of Dooku "into a joke".

Seriously, though, WTF? Sidious had demonstrated vastly superior feats of speed, agility, and sheer power, all the way from being able to blitz the hell out of two of the best swordsman in the Order's history, to outclassing Mace (minus superconducting loop) in a way Dooku simply couldn't, to performing much better against a less restrained Yoda, his displays- while fewer in number than the Count's- are superior.

Are you that stupid?

So let me rephrase that: You think that Dooku is unable to kill two Jedi who aren't even defending theirselves, despite the fact that he royally screwed almost any noteable duellist in the saga? Wow.

Then we have Fisto and Windu. So you're telling me that he can't handle Fisto [on par with RotS Kenobi, roughly] and Mace not fully submerged into Vaapad, despite the fact that he kicked the living shit out of Kenobi and Skywalker during their duel on board of the Invisible Hand, before Anakin reached the zone, and the fact that he was capable to defeat Mace Windu, who was in that situations most likely fully submerged in Vaapad, during times of TPM?

In fact: Putting Dooku in that very situation, he would equally destroy the first two Jedi [due to lack of defence] and then proceed by dealing with Fisto and Mace, unlike you want to tell me that Fisto and Mace are a better team than Skywalker and Kenobi.

Which is why he only identified Sidious as a blur. Sidious is faster, and by no small amount.

Oh yes. Because Maul was moving with force speed in that particular situation, right? Which - given the description of the ability by Luke Skywalker in "The Essential Guide to the Force" - makes the user perceive their surroundings in some sort of slow motion. In fact, the headhuntress firing the rocket at Maul doesn't even see him moving - she just sees a hole appearing in the next wall and the Sith Lord is gone.

'On par with Mace'? If anything, it was noted that dueling Qui-Gon and Mace caused Anoon to doubt his status as the Order's greatest swordsman. That at least implies that Mace mananged to defeat Anoon.

I wasn't talking about Anoon but about Qui-Gon Jinn when mentioning "on par with Mace". A claim coming from "The new Essential Guide to Characters" that says Qui-Gon and Mace have sparred quite often, with neither being able to defeat the other, although Qui-Gon Jinn, being 20 years older than Mace, could have done so in his youth.

Nah. When they fought at first, Sidious utterly raped him- it's also worth to note that Maul, as a highly physical Sith and an engine of destruction, is likely to be trained to completely ignore pain, just like how Palpatine mananged to feed his own pain to increase the force of his lightning.

Oh, and don't forget to mention that Sidious wasn't willing to kill Maul, was using a training lightsaber, and was caught off-guard by Maul's sudden assault.

Does that somehow change the fact that Maul was far away from being in "top shape"? No? Then why bring it up?

In your head, maybe. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Sidious > Maul and Dooku.

In terms of lightsaber ability? Cool. To quote "The Rock": "Just bring it!"

@Gideon:

So, due to Palpatine's far greater command of the Force, he is able to wield a lightsaber faster than Darth Maul's eye can follow. As potent a warrior as Maul is, he cannot fight what he cannot see.

Lmao, Gideon. Maul was just standing there and to perceive a Jedi or Sith using force speed, you would have to use the ability yourself. Likewise Maul using the ability, is not even perceived "as a blur" by the headhuntress encountering him in "Shadow Hunter". She looks at him and the next thing she sees is that the Sith Lord is gone and that a hole has appeared in the next wall. And sorry...running after a Skyhopper and catching it...850 km/h. If somebody watched that incident, not being in the skyhopper, that would have been as attempting to watch a human-size bullet passing him.

Likewise, keep in mind that Darth Maul's near victory over Darth Sidious during his trials was the product of anger. Sidious goaded and mocked him, stating that he would not be chosen as Sidious's Sith apprentice. Maul lashed out in hatred and Sidious simply deflected the blows, albeit barely. That isn't a duel to the death, and it should be noted that Maul also bit Sidious and was disarmed a second time.

We are talking about the full extend of Maul's abilities, Gideon, which would be quite close to that blows he dealt to Sidious in utter hatred, which the Sith Lord was barely able to parry. Maul controlling his hatred could be potentially more deadly and skillful than he was at that situation. Bolsted by the fact that he forced Mace Windu's equal Qui-Gon Jinn to retreat on Tatooine and eventually killed him on Naboo.

Another point of interest is the comparisons between Dooku's fights with Yoda with Sidious's. The cold truth to the matter is that, in both occasions, Yoda's priority was to disable or capture Count Dooku. Dooku, by admission, was "overpowered" by Yoda even on Vjun, a planet steeped with the dark side.

Yes. And according to DR, Dooku still had quite some huge amount of feelings for his old Master, meaning that he, possibly, also didn't attempt to fight Yoda with all he could. One might ask who would be better in controlling his emotions: The 900 year old Jedi or the Sith Lord? And one might also ask how that fight would have gone, if both would have gone all out on each other. Which, essentially - despite Dooku's claims to the contrary, saying that he would kill Yoda - never happened.

Compare that to Sidious battling a Yoda on a neutral setting where the Jedi Master made it unambiguous that his intent was regicide. So looking at it in the proper context, Sidious's performance was greater. After all, Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda on a world that enhanced his dark side powers.

Looking at the "proper context" we have two situatioons in which Yoda and Dooku did both probably not went all out on each other and one situation in which both combatants [Yoda and Sidious] did do all they could to defeat their opponent. Now what? Given that we don't even know to what extend Dooku was "powered up" by Vjun and given the fact that Sidious had to leave lightsaber combat with Yoda as well [in exact the same time Dooku had to do so on Geonosis], there is no conclusion to draw from there. Except that Yoda is superior to both of them in terms of lightsaber ability - which says nothing about who of them is the better lightsaber combatant.

Originally posted by Nai
Lmao, Gideon. Maul was just standing there and to perceive a Jedi or Sith using force speed, you would have to use the ability yourself.

And where has that been proven? In the Phantom Menace, Qui-Gon Jinn catches Jar Jar Binks' tongue between his thumb and forefinger when the two are sitting down. In Boba Fett: Pursuit, Fett attempts to kill Mace Windu by shooting him with a a poisonous dart and Windu simply snatches it out of the air, while remaining stationary. In this demonstration, Sidious wields a lightsaber faster than Maul's eye can follow and outlines his body so closely that, had Maul even so much as twiched, he would have been dismembered.

Likewise Maul using the ability, is not even perceived "as a blur" by the headhuntress encountering him in "Shadow Hunter". She looks at him and the next thing she sees is that the Sith Lord is gone and that a hole has appeared in the next wall. And sorry...running after a Skyhopper and catching it...850 km/h. If somebody watched that incident, not being in the skyhopper, that would have been as attempting to watch a human-size bullet passing him.

Irrelevant, Nai. The bounty hunter is not Force-sensitive, so she doesn't possess the supernatural senses and reflexes afforded by a Jedi or Sith.

We are talking about the full extend of Maul's abilities, Gideon, which would be quite close to that blows he dealt to Sidious in utter hatred, which the Sith Lord was barely able to parry. Maul controlling his hatred could be potentially more deadly and skillful than he was at that situation. Bolsted by the fact that he forced Mace Windu's equal Qui-Gon Jinn to retreat on Tatooine and eventually killed him on Naboo.

Using one's aggressive feelings allows for momentary advantages. Anakin Skywalker has always fought aggressively, yet it is through intense, raw anger that he is able to overcome Count Dooku. Obi-Wan Kenobi, as a padawan, when tapped into his anger, briefly put Darth Maul on the defensive. Surely you're not suggesting that Obi-Wan, if angered, could defeat Maul.

Yes. And according to DR, Dooku still had quite some huge amount of feelings for his old Master, meaning that he, possibly, also didn't attempt to fight Yoda with all he could. One might ask who would be better in controlling his emotions: The 900 year old Jedi or the Sith Lord? And one might also ask how that fight would have gone, if both would have gone all out on each other. Which, essentially - despite Dooku's claims to the contrary, saying that he would kill Yoda - never happened.

Nonsense. By Dooku's own musings, his attempt to turn Yoda to the dark side was a grievous error and the entire purpose of the sham peace conference at Vjun was to kill Yoda. Moreover, Dooku himself attacked Yoda to kill him after he distracted his former Master by hurling Whirry through the window. And as he himself stated during the fight: "I'm going to enjoy killing [Yoda]!"

Unlike Yoda, you can't prove that Dooku wasn't going all out, especially since all evidence points to the conclusion that he was.

Looking at the "proper context" we have two situatioons in which Yoda and Dooku did both probably not went all out on each other

Except this is false. Dooku attempted to attack Yoda when the Jedi was vulnerable and distracted and even flat-out told him during the duel that he would "enjoy" striking Yoda down. If you intend to prove that Dooku wasn't going all out, it's your burden to prove.

and one situation in which both combatants [Yoda and Sidious] did do all they could to defeat their opponent.

I could be equally petty and point out that Sidious's first goal was to simply escape. And he, unlike Dooku, had the opportunity to murder Yoda before the duel truly began (when Yoda was knocked unconscious) and chose not to do so.

Now what? Given that we don't even know to what extend Dooku was "powered up" by Vjun and given the fact that Sidious had to leave lightsaber combat with Yoda as well [in exact the same time Dooku had to do so on Geonosis], there is no conclusion to draw from there.

Dooku was able to bring Asajj Ventress to her knees simply by lifting a finger. It doesn't matter to the extent that he was empowered, though it would imply a great deal. The fact of the matter is that he was in an environment that not only was he more familiar with personally, but metaphysically enhanced his powers. Sidious did not have those same advantages.

Except that Yoda is superior to both of them in terms of lightsaber ability - which says nothing about who of them is the better lightsaber combatant.

Dooku was admittedly overpowered on a world steeped in the dark side by a being who exhausted every effort to convert him back to the light side of the Force. Sidious's fight ended in a stalemate with that same being on a world that offered no such advantage and when the aforementioned being intended for Sidious to die.

Originally posted by Gideon
And where has that been proven? In the Phantom Menace, Qui-Gon Jinn catches Jar Jar Binks' tongue between his thumb and forefinger when the two are sitting down. In Boba Fett: Pursuit, Fett attempts to kill Mace Windu by shooting him with a a poisonous dart and Windu simply snatches it out of the air, while remaining stationary. In this demonstration, Sidious wields a lightsaber faster than Maul's eye can follow and outlines his body so closely that, had Maul even so much as twiched, he would have been dismembered.

Qui-Gon was preparing himself in order to catch Jar Jar's tongue. He did warn him not to do that again, correct? And Windu was also expecting combat or was in combat in that particular situation. And right: Sidious was demonstrating his abilities and there is nothing to suggest that he can replicate that speed in actual combat while, I may add that, he didn't move so fast that Maul wasn't able to see him. He just moved so fast, that Maul just perceived the lightsaber of his master as a blur.

Irrelevant, Nai. The bounty hunter is not Force-sensitive, so she doesn't possess the supernatural senses and reflexes afforded by a Jedi or Sith.

Since when are the Jedi equipped with a force ability that makes them perceives movements slower than they happen automatically, eh? Apparently you think that, from a Jedi's view, everything happens in slow-motion, which is stupid. And if that isn't the case, it wouldn't matter for your perception if you're force senstive or not - the only exception is a force user using force speed.

Using one's aggressive feelings allows for momentary advantages. Anakin Skywalker has always fought aggressively, yet it is through intense, raw anger that he is able to overcome Count Dooku. Obi-Wan Kenobi, as a padawan, when tapped into his anger, briefly put Darth Maul on the defensive. Surely you're not suggesting that Obi-Wan, if angered, could defeat Maul.

In both situations the respective beings were unleashing their anger, which they have always attempted to control in the first place. That wouldn't apply to a Sith Lord in combat.

Nonsense. By Dooku's own musings, his attempt to turn Yoda to the dark side was a grievous error and the entire purpose of the sham peace conference at Vjun was to kill Yoda. Moreover, Dooku himself attacked Yoda to kill him after he distracted his former Master by hurling Whirry through the window. And as he himself stated during the fight: "I'm going to enjoy killing [Yoda]!"

Unlike Yoda, you can't prove that Dooku wasn't going all out, especially since all evidence points to the conclusion that he was.

Oh...all the evidence?

I wonder how all the evidence is pointing to that conclusion, considering that Sidious himself believes Dooku still loves Yoda, that the Count refers to Yoda as "master" in a sort of Freudian slip and that he, discussing the "trap" for Yoda with Sidious, doesn't find any pleasure in the idea of killing Yoda.

Except this is false. Dooku attempted to attack Yoda when the Jedi was vulnerable and distracted and even flat-out told him during the duel that he would "enjoy" striking Yoda down. If you intend to prove that Dooku wasn't going all out, it's your burden to prove.

Yeah. Because Count "Dun Möch" Dooku is naturally always talking about his personal feelings to an opponent. And of course he wanted Yoda dead at all cost, which is why the entire story is littered with hints to Dooku not wanting that to happen, actually, despite his own claims during the actual duel.

I could be equally petty and point out that Sidious's first goal was to simply escape. And he, unlike Dooku, had the opportunity to murder Yoda before the duel truly began (when Yoda was knocked unconscious) and chose not to do so.

Oh yes. You could be petty and point that out, which would result in me handing you that statement right back with a commentary like: "Oh. So Sidious was trying to run away where Dooku was confident enough in his own abilities to challenge Yoda first. So Sidious is a chicken?" And then we could spent the rest of the day with laughing about Darth "I'd rather run" Sidious and his especially smart decission to attempt an run away from a guy who is known to throw his lightsaber right through his opponents. And then I could go on musing, that the main book of Sidious Dark Side Compendium was called "The Book of Panic" subtitled "Why better run than attempting to fight Jedi".

Dooku was able to bring Asajj Ventress to her knees simply by lifting a finger. It doesn't matter to the extent that he was empowered, though it would imply a great deal. The fact of the matter is that he was in an environment that not only was he more familiar with personally, but metaphysically enhanced his powers. Sidious did not have those same advantages.

Yeah. Right. Because we've never seen Dooku force spanking Asajj before...And now it just matters that Dooku was at a place that he was "familiar" with? So the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic is neither "familiar" with his own office, nor with the Senate rotunda? Interesting. Face it: We don't know how much Vjun would have enchanced Dooku's abilities. If it had been a "great deal" one should think that he would have come at least close to defeating Yoda.

Dooku was admittedly overpowered on a world steeped in the dark side by a being who exhausted every effort to convert him back to the light side of the Force. Sidious's fight ended in a stalemate with that same being on a world that offered no such advantage and when the aforementioned being intended for Sidious to die.

And both fights ended with the defeat of the respective Sith Lord in the lightsaber department, with the little difference that Dooku wasn't disarmed and did also chose the point of his escape twice. So what do you want to conclude from there, with the exception from the fact that Yoda is apparently superior to both Sith in the lightsaber department?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Based on what?

Many, many things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It is? Based on what exactly? It is a mere fact that Qui-Gon and Mace were equals in lightsaber combat. None of them could claim an advantage over the other, although Qui-Gon is believed to have been able to beat Mace in lightsaber combat when he was younger. Now Maul simply defeated him by superior skill. Something that Mace Windu didn't manage to do. And Dooku did defeat Mace himself as well as he did defeat a younger Qui-Gon Jinn.

Oh, come on. Different people with different styles, although they might stalemate each other, can have different results while fighting the same opponents. I'll give you an example- Obi-Wan's performance against General Grievous was considerably superior to Mace Windu's performance, although Mace is, quite undisputably, the greater swordsman. Besides, there's the entire 'superconducting loop' angle to it, which would prove highly effective against Maul.

Besides, the fact exists that Sidious was capable of dismantling Kit Fisto with apparent ease, while simultaneously dueling Mace Windu- who would be very considerably a deadlier swordsman than Qui-Gon by RotS. Kit Fisto, if we are to go by what you say, is 'on par' with RotS Obi-Wan- it's safe to assume that he is therefore vastly superior to TPM Obi-Wan. So, yes, Sidious managed to kill Kit Fisto (far superior to Obi-Wan, by TPM) while fighting with an opponent superior to Qui-Gon- all that with overwhelming ease. Maul wasn't capable of doing the same to a far inferior team.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when do force users make quantum leaps in terms of lightsaber ability and combat prowess between there 40s and there 50s, eh? You're essentially attempting to tell me that Mace Windu did develop Vaapad any further, after working on that style already for more than 20 years? And that he somehow managed to develop far more combat prowess, when he was already a living legend in times of TPM? I somehow doubt that.

You know that people tend to increase in power when they have 13 years more time to practice, in addition to 3 years of intensive front-line fighting? Yeah, Dooku had practiced Makashi for over 40 years- that certainly > Mace's original 20 years, yet Dooku constantly increased his mastery. Mace would, quite logically, be far stronger in RotS than he was in TPM. Didn't he get a noticeable power-up and grasp on Vaapad during the events of Shatterpoint?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Especially when you have Qui-Gon Jinn claiming that he could have beaten Mace, if he was younger, implying that a Jedi's overall ability in terms of combat would rather decline than improve in high age [physical condition goes down, force powers go up].

Force powers, if one is talented in them enough (evidently, Qui-Gon wasn't), more than make up for declining physical condition- see Sidious and Yoda. Mace was still capable of demonstrating absolutely incredible feats of speed and sheer physical power, from being able to crush durasteel with his bare hands to being called 'invisible' in comparison to Kar Vastor, an absolute physical beast.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Didn't I just explain why we shouldn't take the "superconducting loop" thing literally? And while mentioning the "glossing over evidence", you might want to present me the evidence that said "superconducting loop" would just work against Dark Siders. If one literally "feeds" upon the force powers of his opponents, just to throw them back at them, this would either work regardless of the background of the opponent or it doesn't work like this at all.

Well, I'm not in my home at the moment, so I don't have access to the novels explaining Vaapad in more depth. Although, I do remember that the RotS novel stated that Vaapad reflected Sidious' fury and dark side-enhanced wrath, enabling him to match Sidious' 'furious speed'. He's never noted to do the same against lightsiders.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He utterly owned Maul, who was already raddled by weeks of being hunted and injured. Really. It's not so that Sidious walked up to Maul in top shape and pimp-slapped him in a lightsaber duel. And Sidious was "in training" himself, when that happened, which doesn't apply for Sidious as he was in RotS.

Yeah, and Sidious still completely outclassed Maul in speed, as Gideon noted in his debate with you.

The truth is, Sidious' enhanced force abilities by RotS basically state that his force-enhanced attributes would be superior than his TPM form- meaning, he's going to be able to outclass Maul in speed even further.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And in the end, Sidious was beaten. You have to understand, once and for all, that unlike Mace - who has to sink into his Vaapad first - Dooku and Maul would be at 100 % ability in the same split second the fight starts. Once Mace did reach the upper limit of his abilities, he wasn't even in need to waste a thought on combating the Sith Lord, driving him back through the office (as seen in the movie) and able to focus on the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord, finally disarming him.

Oh, you are implying that Mace is somehow incompetent without his Vaapad's inticrate abilities? Without any of Vaapad's advantages, he managed to single-handedly decimate an army of droids, outclass Vastor in speed, and get Dooku on the run during their duel in Obsession. He was also capable of getting Grievous on the defensive, a feat that wasn't replicated by five Jedi Masters fighting him all at once. And yet, Sidious forced him back and outclassed him when it came to the above-mentioned categories- even after Mace gained Sidious' advantages in that category, the duel was still at an 'impasse' which, supposedly, could last eternally if Mace's Shatterpoint hadn't come into play.

If we're comparing Mace Windu and Darth Sidious in pure swordmanship, Sidious is, at the very least, Mace's equal.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And you totally love to mix up the novel and the movie, right? In the novel, the both are continuing to fight on a slippery balcony. Did you see that happen in the movie? Nope? And even then, Mace was standing on equal slippery ground, which makes attempting to talk Mace's feat down by mentioning that "Sidious was standing on slippery ground" completely useless.

Alright, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. I'd love to see your proof for Mace being "vastly less powerful" in TPM than he was in RotS. If you've finished with the work to bring that in, you just have to proof that the "superconducting loop" does really exist and only works against Dark Siders. And then you just have to find an explanation, how Dooku could beat Mace Windu, who was already training in Vaapad for 27 years and had the advantage of his Shatterpoint ability already. After which you just have to argue around the fact that, following Yoda's judgement, Mace and Dooku are still equals in times of DR [with Yoda thinking that Mace is "maybe" on par with the Count on equal ground].

And yet you have the fact that in a brief duel in Obsession, Mace- likely without having sufficient time to 'sink into Vaapad'- forced Dooku on the run. Dooku isn't the cowardly sort- he regularly likes to pit his abilities versus the Jedi's, and he wouldn't run away from a duel unless there was the large possibility of him being defeated and killed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh what the hell, newbie?

Umm... is calling me a 'newbie' repeatedly supposed to offend me?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Elements appearing in the novel and not in the movie are just C-Canon. Fact. The script, written by Lucas himself, is a G-Canon source and because of that it superceedes the novel. Aside of that the idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is not contradicted by the movie, as the respective scene would happen between the last lightsaber sequence and the pod throwing sequence - which the movie doesn't show. The idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is just contradicted by the novels interpretation of the fight [which doesn't deal with actual fighting too much], which is still superceeded by the G-Canon script. I'm afraid.

The script only exists for the purpose of giving the movie a distinct 'layout'- indeed, it therefore only applies directly to what we see within the movie. Therefore, the novel, which was directly, word-by-word, approved by George Lucas himself, was released to the masses as means of getting a more detailed version of the movie- the actual fight scene between Sidious and Yoda didn't depict Yoda outclassing and disarming Sidious. Therefore, there is no absolute evidence to conclude that Yoda disarmed Sidious.

And don't you think that GL would have bothered to include an event as important as disarming an opponent within the duel, if it indeed happened?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Qui-Gon was preparing himself in order to catch Jar Jar's tongue. He did warn him not to do that again, correct?

After he caught the tongue, yes.

And Windu was also expecting combat or was in combat in that particular situation.

Most Force sensitives (all of the disciplined ones) demonstrate some sort of precognition in battle.

And right: Sidious was demonstrating his abilities and there is nothing to suggest that he can replicate that speed in actual combat while, I may add that, he didn't move so fast that Maul wasn't able to see him.

That's preposterous, Nai. Why couldn't he replicate the same feat in combat? This isn't some esoteric Force ritual or a Force Storm; it's Force-empowered speed. That it was a demonstration is irrelevant. It's not as if Maul was comatose or otherwise occupied during the experiment.

He just moved so fast, that Maul just perceived the lightsaber of his master as a blur.

I haven't seen the source in question. I am only going on the statement from Publius, where it says that Darth Sidious demonstrated the ability to "move faster than Darth Maul's eye could follow."

Since when are the Jedi equipped with a force ability that makes them perceives movements slower than they happen automatically, eh? Apparently you think that, from a Jedi's view, everything happens in slow-motion, which is stupid. And if that isn't the case, it wouldn't matter for your perception if you're force senstive or not - the only exception is a force user using force speed.

Obviously the Jedi are equipped with supernatural senses and perception, Nai, hence why they are able to perform many of their feats.

In both situations the respective beings were unleashing their anger, which they have always attempted to control in the first place. That wouldn't apply to a Sith Lord in combat.

That's not the question. If your contention is that an always angry opponent will deliver the same effects, I direct you to Maul's doomed fight against Obi-Wan. Kenobi gained the upper hand by unleashing his anger. If we apply your logic, if Kenobi had continued to fight angry, he would have crushed Maul, regardless of Maul's superior training, skills, and abilities.

Oh...all the evidence?

That's right.

I wonder how all the evidence is pointing to that conclusion, considering that Sidious himself believes Dooku still loves Yoda,

In Attack of the Clones, Labyrinth of Evil, and even the initial discussion between Sidious and Dooku in Revenge of the Sith, Dooku betrays a reluctance to kill Obi-Wan Kenobi, citing that, as Qui-Gon's padawan, "[Kenobi] is practically my grandson." He clearly respects Kenobi on a level that he doesn't with Skywalker, even through his musings without their battle.

But he casts this aside when Sidious essentially tells him "No, you've gotta kill him."

This is, by the way, the same Count who has murdered two of his former best friends. Don't presume that Dooku's attachment is anything like Yoda's.

that the Count refers to Yoda as "master" in a sort of Freudian slip and that he,

Referring to the being who had been his mentor, what? Twice, three, four times as long as Sidious has been? Old habits and all that.

discussing the "trap" for Yoda with Sidious, doesn't find any pleasure in the idea of killing Yoda.

He's not exactly a sadist on Palpatine's level. But when it came down to the actual fight, he visibly expressed his desire to murder Yoda. In fact, that is not the only time he muses about it. I recall one such musing within the novel that he wanted to "turn over Yoda's head on a platter" to Sidious.

Yeah. Because Count "Dun Möch" Dooku is naturally always talking about his personal feelings to an opponent. And of course he wanted Yoda dead at all cost, which is why the entire story is littered with hints to Dooku not wanting that to happen, actually, despite his own claims during the actual duel.

Already addressed, Nai. Really, it's a paper-thin argument. The contention that their feelings were somehow the same is ridiculous.

Oh yes. You could be petty and point that out, which would result in me handing you that statement right back with a commentary like: "Oh. So Sidious was trying to run away where Dooku was confident enough in his own abilities to challenge Yoda first. So Sidious is a chicken?" And then we could spent the rest of the day with laughing about Darth "I'd rather run" Sidious and his especially smart decission to attempt an run away from a guy who is known to throw his lightsaber right through his opponents. And then I could go on musing, that the main book of Sidious Dark Side Compendium was called "The Book of Panic" subtitled "Why better run than attempting to fight Jedi".

And it wouldn't mean a thing. I'm not interested in your personal attacks on a specific character. I'm simply pointing out that I, actually, can also be as petty as you're being and come closer to making my point from it. The simple directive is stop being petty, Nai. It's not quite on Janus's "LOL YODA OWNED SIDIOUS" and "Dooku fared well against Yoda twice" but it is annoying and it is unnecessary. I'm simply going to ask you to be fair about it.

Yeah. Right. Because we've never seen Dooku force spanking Asajj before...

He's brought her to her knees simply by lifting a finger?

And now it just matters that Dooku was at a place that he was "familiar" with? So the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic is neither "familiar" with his own office, nor with the Senate rotunda?

Counterpoint: Yoda has been to both of those places before. Not Vjun.

Interesting. Face it: We don't know how much Vjun would have enchanced Dooku's abilities.

No, Nai. You've tried this argument before. "Well, we don't know how much [object/planet x] enhanced [character z's] powers ergo we can ignore it." You can't. Like it or not, Dooku chose Vjun specifically to lure Yoda there. Not to mention the whole planet was a Confederacy world, littered with armament. Hell, he even put a missile in high orbit for save measure. He chose it, out of the vast Confederacy territory, to ensure that he held the upper hand, regardless of the Force or forces, when Yoda arrived.

And it didn't work.

If it had been a "great deal" one should think that he would have come at least close to defeating Yoda.

No, because my contention the entire time has been that the two aren't neck-in-neck or truly on par.

[QUOTE]And both fights ended with the defeat of the respective Sith Lord in the lightsaber department,

According to the script, yes.

with the little difference that Dooku wasn't disarmed and did also chose the point of his escape twice.

True. Though Palpatine has two little differences:

a.) He disarmed Yoda as well. Dooku? Never been so fortunate. Not even on a world that enhanced his powers.

b.) He forced Yoda to flee. Dooku? Never been so fortunate. Not even on a world that enhanced his powers.

So what do you want to conclude from there, with the exception from the fact that Yoda is apparently superior to both Sith in the lightsaber department?

That one combatant fought Yoda in an environment with no metaphysical advantages and forced a stalemate. Was he disarmed? According to the script. But, equally so, according to the movies, Yoda was, in turn, disarmed by Sidious. And then forced to flee. Dooku couldn't replicate those feats on a world steeped in the dark side. To contend that their feats are somehow equal is ridiculous. Sidious did a better job even when he lacked Dooku's advantages.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, by Dooku's thoughts throughout DR, one can make the assumption that he was also holding back against his former Master, which makes this situation a complete non-issue.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And Yoda is "bloodlusted"? Have we forgotten that Yoda is a Jedi Master, or is "being fueled by Revenge" a new Light Side technique, eh? And wow...You're aware of the fact that Sidious is fighting Yoda from a position which is an advantage for the Sith Lord? Because, you may have noticed it, if they would both fight on equal ground, Sidious would have to deal with the fact that he can just attack Yoda when swinging downwards, which is not the best thing to do as a swordfighter.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And at that point, you may want to chose between the two possible interpretations: Was Yoda the superior duellist because he managed to "root Sidious", as you have posted in your first "argument"? Or did the Sith Lord attempt [and finally failed] to stay in the middle of the pod, because that was a position of advantage for him, which would lead to the suggestion, that he wouldn't be equal to Yoda on equal ground?

Oh my f*cking god. The only time Yoda briefly gained the center of the pod location, Sidious forced him back into jumping around. So, yeah, Sidious was capable of maintaing the supposed superior position- if Yoda was indeed superior, he would've been capable of staying in it after he forced Sidious out of it. He failed epically.
Face it- Yoda and Sidious are equals in lightsaber combat, which is more than I can say for Dooku.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace Windu on par with Dooku? LOL. It's pretty obvious that Dooku is beyond Mace in terms of force abilties, considering his demonstrations throughout the saga, as well as Yoda's word on that issue. Lightsaber ability? Once more: Yoda thinks that the only person equal to Dooku in that department might be Mace Windu, meaning that even Yoda (who knows both Mace and Dooku) isn't so sure about that. Which means, technically, that Dooku could be above Mace in the saber department as well, and he definetely is when it comes to force mastery. So who's most likely going to win in a fight between those two, eh?

'Force abilities'? Oh, come ON. Dooku is a force beast, but Mace's feats aren't exactly outclassed and destroyed by him. As I've said before, his feats, in their sheer power, trump Dooku's.
And, besides, Obsession depicts them as complete equals at best- with Yoda having to run away likely before Mace would have the sufficient time to 'sink into Vaapad' against him. Their actual duel > observations from a fallible, albeit reliable third party. Sorry, by RotS, Mace possesses almost every advantage outside of grace, finesse, and technical ability- from physical strength (smashing durasteel with his bare hands), to speed ('multiple visible blades', depicted as 'invisible' in comparison to Kar Vastor, a physical beast possessing a raw power than rivals Yoda's), to physical conditioning and stamina. Oh, and did I mention that Sidious outclassed Mace in similar attributes? Oh, that's right, I did.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Are you enjoying your ignorance of the facts? Let's have a look at both fights: Against Mace, Sidious was finally "overpowered" and put on his ass, once Mace reached his upper limit. Mace > Sidious. Against Yoda, he was apparently disarmed and forced to continue the fight without a lightsaber. Yoda > Sidious.

Right. Sidious > Mace's natural abilities, and Sidious = Yoda. I've already proven that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku decided to leave in all confrontations with that two individuals, in two times with entire armies on their way to get him and while his confrontations with his former Master may have been as emotional for him as they were for Yoda. So what? Not conclusive. Essentially, from what we know, you could put Dooku in the same situations Sidious was in and he might actually fare better, if we ignore the relationship between him and Yoda.

Oh, I'm sure that you believe that Dooku thought something like "Hmm... well, this confrontation is boring. Killing Mace and Yoda would be anti-climatic, so I better run!". He ran away because he was incapable of defeating them- being an arrogant person, he wouldn't run away unless he's in real danger and is met with someone equal or superior to himself.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And that turns him into a superior lightsaber combatant how exactly?

It makes him a more powerful individual and force user, which almost directly applies to lightsaber combat. This is why Anakin tooled Dooku, among other things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And once again: Movie > novel. In fact, Anakin's cyborg arm was a complete non-issue, as we can see in the new Clone Wars movie. Hell....Dooku manages to block a full powered swing from Skywalker while holding his lightsaber with the left hand at the end of their duel on Tatooine. The fact that Anakin was able to beat the Count was coming from unleashing a great part of his full potential using his Dark emotions, which then turned all the skill of Dooku "into a joke".

Huh? The movie depicts Anakin constantly forcing back Dooku and preventing him from getting the upper hand, even while he was leading him up the staircases- before he was pissed off and while he wasn't working with Obi-Wan. The novel is canonical, and really, it's narration and explanation of canon > your observations.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So let me rephrase that: You think that Dooku is unable to kill two Jedi who aren't even defending theirselves, despite the fact that he royally screwed almost any noteable duellist in the saga? Wow.

WOW. Way to go. Two of the greatest bladesbeings in the Order who are aware of their target's position as the Sith Master and have their lightsabers ignited and are in a combat stance aren't defending themselves? How very logical. Sorry, Dooku would never have been capable of decimating them the same way Sidious did- by killing them with 'blinding' speed before even Mace Windu could react. The same Windu who has speed feats that more than rival Dooku's.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Then we have Fisto and Windu. So you're telling me that he can't handle Fisto [on par with RotS Kenobi, roughly] and Mace not fully submerged into Vaapad, despite the fact that he kicked the living shit out of Kenobi and Skywalker during their duel on board of the Invisible Hand, before Anakin reached the zone, and the fact that he was capable to defeat Mace Windu, who was in that situations most likely fully submerged in Vaapad, during times of TPM?

RIGHT. Which is why they forced Dooku back, why he acknowledged that they- 'clowns'- could potentially defeat him, and why Anakin destroyed him in combat. Oh, and why Obi-Wan managed to shock him with a 'bewilderingly fast' defensive maneuver.
There is no f*cking way Dooku would have been capable of decimating Fisto in five seconds while fighting against Mace Windu, who has, individually, got him on the run during Obsession. By RotS, Dooku simply isn't capable of defeating Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel- hell, Dooku was even forced to rely on his super battle droids ('cheating', which he abhorred, being a so-called 'gentleman' and honorable fighter) in order to separate the team that was overpowering him, and could only get rid of Obi-Wan via the force- saberwise, he was incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense. While I don't think that Kit is Obi-Wan's equal in RotS, he's close, and actually lasted much less time versus Sidious in comparison to how long Obi-Wan lasted against Dooku in AotC, despite Fisto fighting in tandem with Mace Windu and being considerably superior to AotC Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Borbarad
In fact: Putting Dooku in that very situation, he would equally
destroy the first two Jedi [due to lack of defence] and then proceed by dealing with Fisto and Mace, unlike you want to tell me that Fisto and Mace are a better team than Skywalker and Kenobi.

Yes, he would move with as much speed as Palpatine and be able to destroy two of the best swordsman in the Order's history before Mace Windu could comprehend what happened, and would then destroy Fisto and force Mace back. 'Cause, you know, he's totally much stronger than Windu and like a gazillion times better than Fisto. He's able to move as fast as Palpatine, too, and Kolar and Tiin weren't even putting up a defense, although they were aware of their target's position as an extremely dangerous Sith Lord, had their lightsabers ignited, and were in a combat stance. 🙄

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yes. Because Maul was moving with force speed in that particular situation, right? Which - given the description of the ability by Luke Skywalker in "The Essential Guide to the Force" - makes the user perceive their surroundings in some sort of slow motion. In fact, the headhuntress firing the rocket at Maul doesn't even see him moving - she just sees a hole appearing in the next wall and the Sith Lord is gone.

This doesn't change the fact that Palpatine's speed was beyond Maul's comprehension- I'm sure you don't want to make a case for Maul being faster than Sidious, right? This is pathetic. Sidious is far faster than Maul. He's also faster than Mace, and, for that matter, Dooku.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Does that somehow change the fact that Maul was far away from being in "top shape"? No? Then why bring it up?

No- but he was logically channeling his rage and pain in order to attempt to get a surprise attack on Sidious, who, after a few blows, disarmed Maul with a training saber, despite holding back.

Yeah, I'm surprised at how petty Nai is being over this issue. I thought we'd all moved past that. Though I will give Nai props for not going down Janus's embarrassing avenue. You did a pretty good job, Crimzon.