ROTS Sidious vs Dooku and Maul

Also, numerous sources have made it clear: Count Dooku regards Darth Sidious with an interlace of unabashed awe and fear. There are three sources in particular that address this fear: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil, and Revenge of the Sith. Since I only have one of those sources on hand, I have taken the liberty of quoting the relevant source material verbatim.

From Dark Rendezvous:

"Ah, to be young and full of hate!" Dooku chuckled. "You would be a star-great to everyone but me. But I'd have to keep you humble, you realize. I'd have to goad and needle and hurt you, to keep you in your place. Every secret the apprentice learns, he pays for dearly. Oh yes, he pays..."

The Count paused, his eyes closing for a moment as if to shut out some terrible memory. Asajj regarded him narrowly.

Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold. Only in this situation, stooped before the image of his Master, did he feel his years. Even via hologram, the flickering figure of Darth Sidious, hideous in blue and shadows, seemed to strip his false youth away, leaving his bones brittle, his joints worn thin and knotted with tension.

"These are the envoys from Troxar," his Master said.

How could he know? Dooku didn't ask. Darth Sidious knew. He always knew.

Dooku reached for the box. He found to his surprise that his hands were shaking. Odd. He had been almost as surprised as Ventress to see himself sparing the gaunt Jedi, Jai Maruk. It had been a sudden whim, sending him back. A hook dropped for Yoda, as he had told Sidious afterward. A hook baited with the pink squirm of an old memory. Darth Sidious had given him a curious look, then, one that passed through him like a flush of fever, a weakness inside.

"Do you still love him?" his Master said.

Dooku had laughed and braved it out. The idea was ridiculous.

"Ridiculous?" his Master had said, in that soft, terrible voice of his. "I hardly think so."

And then, his voice like honeyed poison, "A good student always loves his teacher."

There was always a risk, talking with Sidious. Sometimes the conversation would go badly, and Dooku would fail to please somehow. It was a terrible thing, failing to please his Master.

He shook his head. These were a boy's weak fears.

No, they had gone their separate ways, and Yoda had newer Jedi to look after. Kenobi and, worse yet, young Skywalker. Oh, yes, and wasn't everyone watching him. Even Darth Sidious, with a gleam in his eye, mentioned the boy as one strong in the Force.

"Just a little piece in a great game," his Master had said; but a stab of jealousy had gone through Dooku when Sidious lingered over the name. Skywalker, yes... The Force is strong in him.

Outside, the wind picked up another notch, shrieking and groaning among the eleven chimneys, as if to announce the arrival of a hideous guest.

Dooku's comm console chimed. He glanced over, expecting the daily report from General Grievous, or perhaps a message from Asajj Ventress. He reached over to open the channel, recognized the digital signature of the incoming transmission, jabbed the channel open, and snapped to his feet.

"You called, my Master?"

The hologrammic projector on his desk sprang to life, and the wavering form of Darth Sidious regarded him. As always the picture was oozy and unclear, as if light itself were uneasy in the presence of the Lord of the Sith. Dark robes, purple shadows-a patch of skin, pale and mottled under his hooded cloak like a fungus growing under a rotten log. From under heavy lids the Master's eyes, snake-cold and serpent-wise, regarded him.

"What would you have from me, Master?"

"From you? Everything, of course." Darth Sidious sounded amused. "There was a time when I wasn't sure if you would be able to overcome that... independent streak of yours. After all, you were born to one of the wealthiest families in the galaxy, with gifts and abilities far, far greater than any amount of wealth could bestow. Your understanding is deep; your will, adamant. Is it any wonder you should be proud? Why, how could it be otherwise?"

Dooku said, "I have always served you well and faithfully, my Master."

"You have. But you must admit, your spirit was not made for fidelity. After all, a man who will not bow to the Jedi Council, or even Master Yoda... I wondered if perhaps loyalty was too mean, too confining a thing to ask from so great a being as yourself."

Dooku tried to smile.

"The war progresses well. Our plans are on schedule. I have dealt out your deaths, your schemes, your betrayals. I have paid for your war with my time, my riches, my friends, and my honor."

"Holding nothing back?" Sidious asked lightly.

"Nothing. I swear it."

"Excellent," Darth Sidious said. "Yoda came to the Chancellor's office this morning. He is going on a very special mission. Top secret."

He laughed, a harsh sound like the bark of a crow. The wind rose again, shrieking around the mansion like a creature in torment.

"When he arrives, Dooku... see that you treat him as he deserves."

Darth Sidious laughed. Dooku wanted to laugh along, but couldn't quite manage it before his Master cut the connection and disappeared.

Dooku sighed. In all reason-and he was a reasonable man-the spill was his own fault. He had been distracted, turning over the progress of the war. Things were going so well in the Outer Rim, the Republic press was urging action there, "before the whole Rim is lost to the Confederacy for good." Really, sometimes it seemed to Dooku that Darth Sidious's plots were needlessly complex. It was beginning to look very much as if Dooku could simply win: march his battle droids into Coruscant and claim the Republic outright. Not that he would ever question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command. But each man to his own devices: give a problem to a soldier, and you will get a military solution; the same question will get you diplomacy from a diplomat, and clothes from a tailor.

Darth Sidious had the mind of a schemer, and so he put his faith in schemes. Dooku checked himself. The thought was unfair. Say rather, Darth Sidious, alone in all the galaxy, knew most intimately the dark springs that ran through creatures' hearts. He was an expert in personal disintegration-in the ways one came to betray oneself. It was no wonder, then, that even a clash of empires revealed itself to the Sith as fundamentally a psychological battle, to be won and lost at the level of each being's inner strength or weakness. Dooku himself-though certainly psychologically acute, both naturally and through his Jedi training, and more recently through the wisdom of the Sith-was also born to wealth and power, and had for years now commanded very large groups of followers, both in armies and corporations. It seemed to him that a being's inner nature, whether noble or debased, looked much the same as he or she was crushed under the tread of a tank. When one has sufficient force, there is no need for schemes.

"Uh-oh," Whirry said. She had reached out to dab at the spilled wine with an old rag-stars forbid she should risk a wine stain on the fancy Malreaux linen napkins-but her hand had stopped in midair, hovering over the splotch of burgundy on the table. "You're in trouble."

"Whirry," Dooku began severely, "I have told you before, I don't like-"

The comm console chimed. Glancing over, the Count saw who was calling and cut his sentence off short.

"I'll take this in my study," he said.

For a long time Darth Sidious did not speak to him. Instead, he simply piped the breaking news story into Dooku's holoconsole. A smiling Palleus Chuff, bruised but modestly triumphant. Long panning shots of the interior of the Phindar Spaceport: reporters pointing excitedly at spent flechettes and plasma scorch marks. Quickly patched holes in the floor and wall. Head shots of Master Yoda-"another glowing chapter in his legendary career." Security footage of Trade Federation assassin droids running amok; two Jedi Knights bravely battling to save civilians before being cut down. Asajj Ventress, of course. A shot from external space station cams: Last Call tumbling heavily through space, accelerating, and then making a hyperdrive jump to certain doom. A state-of-the-art ship built at Dooku's own expense-the third one she'd lost, if one counted the craft Anakin and Kenobi had stolen from her.

Dooku wished Darth Sidious would speak. It was Ventress's fault. The woman was impossible. She was talented, yes, but really, a battalion of droids was of more immediate practical use. At this rate, cheaper, too. He should terminate her.

The remorseless hooded figure flickered like a ghost on the holoconsole.

"I was not aware. Thank you for showing this to me. Needless to say, Ventress was acting on her own initiative."

The arrogance-one might even say, the faint condescension-with which he had been thinking of his Master a few moments before had drained out of him like blood spilling from an open vein.

"Nevertheless, the basic facts remain: Yoda is coming to me here, and here I will finish him, once and for all."

"So I trust." Darth Sidious smiled.

Once, early in Dooku's Jedi career, he had arrived on a distant planet too late to stop a massacre-a long hall of wood and grass, tribal enemies inside, the outside doused with kerosene and a match thrown in. The flames, dancing, had looked like his Master's smile.

"Of course, Count, I leave you to manage Ventress as you see fit: but would you like to know what I do, when my servants show enough... initiative?"

Dooku found his finger touching-just touching-the small red button on his desk.

"Master?"

"I crush them," Darth Sidious said.

No. In every fiber of her being Asajj knew that running, hiding, defending was always the wrong strategy. In every engagement, one had to seize the initiative. In every engagement, the key was to attack.

"Kill your Master," she said.

Dooku blinked. "What?"

Well, at least he wasn't expecting it, Asajj thought, with a wild grin. She had made her gamble-nothing to do now but back it up.

"Kill your Master now, with my help. Now while you can." She noted the tiniest flinch on the Count's face. "Sooner or later, every Sith apprentice tries to overthrow his Master. I know it. You know it. He knows it. Now is your time. You are an independent agent on a fortress planet. Armies are at your command. The wealth of worlds is at your feet. Now is your time."

"I do admire the unexpected flair of your attack," Dooku murmured. "I have mentioned the benefits of age to you more than once, but it has its drawbacks, too. One gets settled in one's ways. But you... you still surprise me. You are still unexpected."

"How do you think this war is going to go?" Ventress said, pressing her tiny moment of advantage. "What happens if you win? Will you return to Coruscant in triumph? Will you sit at the great man's hand when the fighting is done? I don't think so. How can he let you live-Dooku, the conquering general. Dooku the wealthy. Dooku the wise. You must stand too much in his sun, Count."

"You are bluffing about things you do not know, Asajj. It is a brave show, but it will not do."

His attempt at a condescending smile did not convince her.

"He will use you up," she said. "He will put you on the front lines when he can. He will throw Yoda at you, and his sycophants: Kenobi, Windu, Skywalker."

"With great ability comes great responsibility, Ventress. Not, clearly, one of your long suits."

"Fine, fine, take your shots," she said impatiently. "You're just buying time now, because I'm right. Ask yourself one question-ask it from the dark side, look at it clear-eyed, Count. Right now, your Master uses you because he is beset by dangers. What happens when you are the most dangerous being left standing?"

He had a brief fantasy of letting go with a single blast of Force energy, shattering the window, flaying the old Master with the shards. He imagined Yoda tumbling through the air, bloody and insensible, dashing his brains out on the flagstones far below. Then it would all be mercifully over and Dooku wouldn't have to feel this strange, jumbled confusion. His hands would stop shaking and he would be dry inside and tight: dry and tight and empty as a drum, just a drum for Darth Sidious to play. How easy that would be. But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy.

"Yes, Master?" Dooku said, hating the words as soon as they were out of his mouth. He only had one Master now, and a jealous one.

At this moment Yoda turned, and Dooku gasped. Whether it was the play of the holomonitors, beaming their views of bleak space and distant battles, or some other trick of the light, Yoda's face was deeply hidden in the shadows, mottled black and blue, so that for one terrible instant he looked exactly like Darth Sidious.

A light blinked on the comm console. A special, red light. Dooku stared at it, then tore his eyes away.

"Message," Yoda said helpfully. "Answer it, should you?"

Sweat was running freely down the Count's face.

"Or maybe someone it is you do not want me to see. Your new Master calls. Dooku, ask yourself: which of us loves you better?"

"I serve only Darth Sidious," Dooku said.

In the end, it is unambiguously clear: Sidious is superior based on feats, narrative, and even in Dooku's own regard.

Janus, if you want to continue this debate, don't do me the discourtesy of lying or shading the truth again. We've been through this mess time and time again, and I'm no longer going to afford you the same length of patience. Once more, and I'm going to put you on my ignore list.

Superior via narration?

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith Dooku is referred to as being the 'axis of the universe' once he allows the Force to flow through him. Later on it becomes the 'center of the universe.' Compare that to Darth Sidious who is seen as a 'black hole in the Force' and which appears greater in power?

Center of the Universe > Black Hole.
Dooku > Sidious.

The point of that was to show how absurd the hyperbole in that novel was. Utterly ridiculous throughout. This assessment wasn't serious.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Superior via narration?

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith Dooku is referred to as being the 'axis of the universe' once he allows the Force to flow through him. Later on it becomes the 'center of the universe.' Compare that to Darth Sidious who is seen as a 'black hole in the Force' and which appears greater in power?

Center of the Universe > Black Hole.
Dooku > Sidious.

The point of that was to show how absurd the hyperbole in that novel was. Utterly ridiculous throughout. This assessment wasn't serious.

A black hole was the best way to describe Sidious. According to Dooku Sidious was beyond power. To Dooku using the word "power" was not enough to describe Sidious.

Take that Enyalus' beliefs. Besides, Dooku being the "axis of the Universe" still doesn't stand a chance once that axis is swallowed up by a "black hole of the Force."

But seriously, what kind of f*cked up piece of writing (even in Star Wars) would have the ultimate manipulator of the galaxy being the inferior to his own blind-sided apprentice? I mean that's just some bad storytelling.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Take that Enyalus' beliefs. Besides, Dooku being the "axis of the Universe" still doesn't stand a chance once that axis is swallowed up by a "black hole of the Force."

But seriously, what kind of f*cked up piece of writing (even in Star Wars) would have the ultimate manipulator of the galaxy being the inferior to his own blind-sided apprentice? I mean that's just some bad storytelling.

He's not. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous is pretty much the best published piece of writing in the mythos. Dooku and Yoda feature heavily, but it depicts the true nature of Sidious: he's a manipulative prick who taunts, teases, and bashes Dooku, all the while holding him in a constant state of fear.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Take that Enyalus' beliefs. Besides, Dooku being the "axis of the Universe" still doesn't stand a chance once that axis is swallowed up by a "black hole of the Force."

But seriously, what kind of f*cked up piece of writing (even in Star Wars) would have the ultimate manipulator of the galaxy being the inferior to his own blind-sided apprentice? I mean that's just some bad storytelling.

Pssht. Someone needs an astronomy lesson. Black holes are at the center of galaxies. Universe >>>>> galaxy.

And actually, to be technical, there is no center of the universe at all. But yeah, I agree. I think the sheer amount of hyperbole in the ROTS novel is ridiculous. Some things I recall off the top of my head:

Dooku is the axis of the universe.
Sidious is a black hole.
Obi-Wan is the ultimate Jedi.
Sidious is 'the shadow.'
Yoda is the 'little green freak.'
And my personal favorite, Anakin's blows having the power of a "meteor strike."

Ugh.

I'm with Gideon - DR was a great read. I'll be a fanboy though - I really liked the way PoD was written, and the character development that went along with it.

'Character' development consists of more than 'randomly changing characterization to suit the plot.'

Jedi Vs. Sith's section with Bane's narration did more for his character than two books from that talentless hack.

That's because Jedi vs. Sith was made of awesome. 😛

Plus, a lot of his lines are exactly the same as the ones in PoD.

Plenty are changed for no reason.

And I was referring to the Essential Guide

...Oh.

What, in the name of the enviable executor of Ronald McDonald, are you people doing here, eh?

It's not one opponent - there are two

Some people should really lern to think twice about certain situations. Once more: Sidious in this fight is facing two opponents. Can Maul beat him on his own? Most likely not. Can Dooku do it in a strict force contest? Probably not.

Can Sidious manhandle one of them while the other opponent attacks him at the very same time?

The point is that he has to keep up a decent force defence against opponent X while attacking opponent Y - or vice versa. It doesn't go "Sidious VS Dooku and after this Sidious VS Maul". Get that into your head people. Do you really think that Sidious can block, let's say a force push, from Darth Maul, while attempting to toast Dooku with force lightning at the same time? Or do you think that he can fry Maul while Dooku fires a barrage of force lightning at him? I, personally, don't think that he's able to do the job and it really begs for proof that he can do anything like that. Why?

Powerful? Not powerful?

One most love how everybody short of Yoda is a non-issue for Sidious in terms of force abilities. Really. Dooku walks through the saga, force raping people left and right without much difficulty [Sora Bulq, Tholme, Ventress, Obi-Wan, Anakin], is mentioned as one of the most powerful, wise, knowledgeable etc. beings popping up in the entire history of the Jedi Order and "an even greater Sith Lord". Yoda directly mentions him as the Temples greatest student [putting him above everybody else in that time - including Mace Windu]. Yet, somehow, the very same guy must - somehow - be leagues below Sidious?

Where does that idea come from? Oh yes. From the fact that Dooku feared Sidious. And what is "fear"? An emotion - an irrational feeling. Shall we base our judgement about characters on irrationality now? Oh yes, apparently we shall do exactly that. And nothing but that. Why even think a split second about Maul, Dooku or their respective abilities, when we can just write them off with an "Uh. But they feared Sidious"? Because, if we just leave the character relationships out, we just have two Sith Lords facing one other Sith Lord.

Duh?! But Sidious did...

...what exactly? Whatever Sidious has done, he did it against Jedi. How would he fare against other dark siders? May I remind you: The one Jedi that goes boarderline Dark Side in combat [Mace Windu using his Vaapad mindset] did put him on his ass and fended off a full powered barrage of his force lightning. Beyond Dooku? Doubt that.

Conclusion, anybody?

Sidious will get turned into a bloody blur on the next wall in lightsaber combat.

In a force contest? I remind you: He has to deal with the two opponents simultaneously. I doubt that he, in his RotS shape, can do the job because - yes - he has to focus on Dooku who can be far more dangerous than you consider him to be and Maul just has to offer some little distraction. Throwing some stuff? Shouldn't be beyond him. The only chance he has is to literally force kill one of his opponents instantly. Can he do that? Didn't see Mace Windu dropping down on the ground dead when being hit with force lightning. Hell...even in his RotJ state he couldn't insta-kill Vader with force lightning, despite Vaders weakness against that ability [that Maul simply jumped through when being attacked by a lesser force user].

All out? Even if we take the off-chance into consideration that Sidious is capable of permanently disabling one of the duo in the matter of seconds [and I doubt he can do that], before they can close to melee range: Do you really think that he, after not having used a lightsaber for a decade, is capable of defeating Dooku [who is on par with Mace Windu in terms of swordsplay - if we can thrust Yoda - yet more powerful and capable of applying force attacks while fencing] or Maul [who defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi that was also on par with Mace Windu in the lightsaber department] in a straight forward lightsaber duel? I, personally, don't think that is the case.

... you don't think Sidious can beat either Maul or Dooku in a lightsaber duel?

I say massive 'LOLZ' to that.

Okay. First off, let's deal with the "They're both on par with Mace Windu ergo they own Sidious!" logic, which, forgive me, is one of the worst cases of A>B>C I've ever seen.

Why? First off, Maul outduelled Qui-Gon during TPM, which happens to be more than 10 years before RotS. Even if we're to assume that Mace was 'on par' with Qui-Gon during that time, you'll have to consider two factors. One is that Mace will not be nearly as powerful as he was in RotS, after years of intensive war experience and more and more mastering of his Vaapad. And the second factor, while we're speaking Vaapad, is the fact that Mace Windu's 'superconducting loop' would not work on Qui-Gon, because Qui-Gon does not generate dark side energies. Ergo, Mace- in a far inferior form and incapable of using his greatest advantages- was still capable of stalemating Qui-Gon in combat. Note the high regard Maul held Mace in, noting his interest in a conflict with him after his duel with Anoon Bondara. By TPM times, Sidious was able to stomp Maul in a lightsaber duel- while he's not nearly as well-practiced or physically conditioned, he's had far more time to study the lightsaber forms and happens to be an infinitely greater user of the force- his speed was beyond Maul's capability to see, for example. By RotS, while he would not be quite as technically skilled, he would likely be a superior force user, capable of utilizing the force's physical nature to a greater extent because of a logically superior grasp on the force.

Dooku? Similar thing. Compare his and Sidious' fight with Yoda- the lightsaber duel, specifically. Dooku was not only constantly being forced back, on the brink of being overpowered, and had Yoda running circles around him and dodging the majority of his attacks, effortlessly parrying them when he couldn't dodge, Yoda was actually holding back against his old apprentice. Dooku was completely and utterly outclassed. Compare this to Yoda vs. Sidious. Sidious not only managed to contend against a bloodlusted Yoda, he actually- during their pod engagement- successfully get a constant offensive despite being rooted in one location while Yoda was doing crazy acrobatics around him. Yoda didn't launch a single attack that actually damaged or hindered Sidious, despite breaking the saberlocks and all. Did he disarm Sidious? Plausible, but not verified. The script is relevant purely to the movie, and therefore all scenes within it that didn't make the cut are extremely unlikely to be canonical. The novel, for instance, which was written with George Lucas' specific approval, depicts a far more detailed fight scene. Nothing is mentioned about Yoda disarming Sidious. Conclusion? It's impossible to prove Yoda actually disarmed Sidious.

As for Dooku being supposedly on par with Mace, the only extended sparring matches they've had was before Dooku became a dark sider. Mace's Vaapad would not work to its full extent against Dooku. In Obsession, their duel was brief. Now then, compare this to Sidious vs. Mace. Sidious not only assaulted the team with 'blinding' speed (official Databank) and mananged to stomp the hell out of two of the finest swordsmen in the Order's history, he actually managed to defeat Kit Fisto- an extremely skilled Jedi- while Fisto was fighting in tandem with Mace. The two Jedi are likely to have formed a fighting pattern, having worked before. And then? Until Mace was fully submerged in Vaapad, Sidious forced him back and utterly outclassed him, in everything from agility to speed to offensive capability. Dooku didn't. Even when Mace was immersed in Vaapad, their duel was at 'an impasse' and only the Shatterpoint ability enabled him to get the upper hand on Sidious, while Sidious was forced to lower his speed in order to form a 'force-powered grip' on the slippery ledge.

Sidious' showings are simply superior to Dooku and Maul. In Maul's case, Sidious is far superior. He's faster, more agile, has superior reflexes and is, quite simply, a much more devastating opponent, even within the context of lightsaber combat. Yeah, he could beat either of them in a duel. Maybe not all too easily, but still quite a firm victory. So even if he manages to, say, nail Maul with the force, he'll still be capable of beating Dooku down with a lightsaber.

To corroborate some of Master Crimzon's argument, I want to address some of Nai's points specifically.

Originally posted by Nai
Can Sidious manhandle one of them while the other opponent attacks him at the very same time?

I remain unconvinced by your argument that Darth Sidious will be overwhelmed due to the fact that he is outnumbered. We have had instances throughout the mythos of singular combatants engaging and defeating opponents working in tandem who outnumber them; Count Dooku himself is but one. So the mere suggestion that he will be hindered or fighting against the odds due to numbers is demonstrably false and preposterous. Though Darth Maul is lauded for his status amongst Sith apprentices, those accolades are directly attributed to his physical condition, the grueling state of his training, and that he has mastered various martial arts disciplines interlaced with Juyo, a form that requires one to be a "high end master of multiple forms." Nowhere is Darth Maul explicitly lauded or held in high regard by any source for his Force mastery. None. What Janus has implied, Nai, is ridiculous. There is no proof that he would be anything but a nonfactor against his Master, who is lauded for his command of the Force.

One most love how everybody short of Yoda is a non-issue for Sidious in terms of force abilities.

No one here has even remotely made that contention. Count Dooku's accolades need not be mentioned, suffice it to say that he is an immensely gifted Force user. But he hasn't demonstrated the sufficient power and skill to defeat his Master alone. To challenge him? Sure. As I previously noted, Palpatine isn't going to just steamroll through him. But he has no way to win.

...what exactly? Whatever Sidious has done, he did it against Jedi. How would he fare against other dark siders? May I remind you: The one Jedi that goes boarderline Dark Side in combat [Mace Windu using his Vaapad mindset] did put him on his ass and fended off a full powered barrage of his force lightning. Beyond Dooku? Doubt that.

Submerging himself into Vaapad, Windu is granted the ability to create a superconductive loop which no dark sider has ever demonstrated. As far as him "fending it off," Windu was nearly killed by that "barrage of Force lightning", despite the fact that: he was armed with a lightsaber, capable of channeling energy into its blade; he is a remarkable physical specimen capable of great strength and ability; he was in the superior position, standing up and towering over the Emperor; and the fact that he was the beneficiary of a metaphysical superconductive loop. Palpatine, despite that, relented the assault and was proven to have been feigning weakness. Unlike Windu, he had far greater reserves of energy to spare. Don't presume to imply that the two were somehow on parity in terms of Force energies.

Originally posted by Gideon
To corroborate some of Master Crimzon's argument, I want to address some of Nai's points specifically.

And I will just adress yours, since Crimzon is actually stupid enough to lecture me on A>B>C arguments and then come up with two A>B>C arguments to proof his point. Not worth my precious time.

I remain unconvinced by your argument that Darth Sidious will be overwhelmed due to the fact that he is outnumbered. We have had instances throughout the mythos of singular combatants engaging and defeating opponents working in tandem who outnumber them; Count Dooku himself is but one. So the mere suggestion that he will be hindered or fighting against the odds due to numbers is demonstrably false and preposterous. Though Darth Maul is lauded for his status amongst Sith apprentices, those accolades are directly attributed to his physical condition, the grueling state of his training, and that he has mastered various martial arts disciplines interlaced with Juyo, a form that requires one to be a "high end master of multiple forms." Nowhere is Darth Maul explicitly lauded or held in high regard by any source for his Force mastery. None. What Janus has implied, Nai, is ridiculous. There is no proof that he would be anything but a nonfactor against his Master, who is lauded for his command of the Force.

The point is not that he is somehow outnumbered, Gideon.

How often did you see a force user in the saga defending against force attacks from two different opponents and at the very same time defeat one of that opponents by using the force?

The correct answer to this would be "Nowhere".

Let me try to give you an example of what I imagine, so you might get the point: Imagine the three Sith Lords are standing in some large room. Now Dooku attacks Sidious with force lightning, while Maul attempts to force push Sidious [unbalancing him] or force push stuff at him [distraction].

What will happen now? Of course Sidious can block Dooku's lightning [well...at least most likely]. Of course he would also be able to stop Maul's TK [most likely]. Can he do both at the same time? And if you suggest that he's capable of doing that, can he come up with a decent force attack himself while doing so? You could also give Sidious the offensive position. He attempts to use force lightning at Maul [for example]. Can he do that while shielding himself from Dooku's force lightning? Or can he sucessfully attack Dooku while Maul distracts him with some force manouvers?

See. The point is that he either has to defend himself againt attacks from both opponents simultaneously while attempting to attack himself at the same time. Or he has to overpower Dooku and Maul simultaneously before they can attack him. And this is not a question of numbers, but a question of Sidious force powers and his force control.

No one here has even remotely made that contention. Count Dooku's accolades need not be mentioned, suffice it to say that he is an immensely gifted Force user. But he hasn't demonstrated the sufficient power and skill to defeat his Master alone. To challenge him? Sure. As I previously noted, Palpatine isn't going to just steamroll through him. But he has no way to win.

No, Gideon? Then tell me what "sufficient skill to defeat Sidious" would be and how it should be demonstrated. In fact, the only two beings you see fit for the job of facing Sidious, are Mace Windu and Yoda. Surprise, surprise.
So the "demonstration" of said skill-level would involved keeping up with or defeating Yoda, Mace or Sidious himself. Great. That are two people the Dooku in the continuum would either fear, love or at least respect as "Masters", possible not going all out on them, and one being he considered to be one of his closest friends whom he only confronted once, in a "fight" that was more "talk" then "battle".

Submerging himself into Vaapad, Windu is granted the ability to create a superconductive loop which no dark sider has ever demonstrated.

One must love the clinging to a metaphor. Vaapad is a lightsaber style and a mindset. Which of these two things do you think should be able to summon a "superconducting loop" that takes "Darkness" from person X, then draws it to person Y, who takes it and channels it back to person X again?

I can answer that it's not the mindset, because Windu, according to the RotS novel, once being submerged into Vaapad, fights Sidious "without intervention of his mind" and is using the force to find the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord. So do the lightsaber moves now form a superconducting loop?

Ah well. Apparently, the "superconducting loop" is how Mace percieves his Vaapad working. Shall we take that literally? I don't think so. Why not? Because neither the mindset nor the bladework offer an explanation for this phenomenon. Logically, Mace Windu can just wield his own powers around, no matter who he's fighting. The point is that Windu stays Windu, regardless of whom he is fighting. Essentially his Vaapad [the mindset] brings him to the edge of the Dark Side but doesn't let him fall to it. And what does using the Dark Side do with a force user? It makes them stronger in combat.

Hence he get's stronger once submerged into Vaapad. He reaches his personal "z0ne" somewhere on the edge of the Dark Side. And from there he's practically engaging Sidious in lightsaber combat with mere automatism, which obviously prevents him from using the force to "drain" power away from Sidious and channel it back on the Sith Lord. And please: If that really should be your explanation of how Vaapad works, then I don't see any reason to limit the "superconducting loop" stuff to Mace fighting Dark Siders.

As far as him "fending it off," Windu was nearly killed by that "barrage of Force lightning", despite the fact that: he was armed with a lightsaber, capable of channeling energy into its blade;

According to the novel. And even there he wasn't almost killed by the lightning but by his own lightsaber being pushed into his head - which doesn't happen in the movie.

he is a remarkable physical specimen capable of great strength and ability;

Which is somehow not true for Darth "Mr Martial Arts" Maul? Or are you more thinking about Count "I can block overhead swings from the Chosen One with the cyborg arm Skywalker and the Jedi Council Member Kenobi with one hand" Tyranus, aka Dooku, who was - as quoted by yourself - descriped as fit as a man half his age.

he was in the superior position, standing up and towering over the Emperor;

Which would have so much effect in an attempt to defend yourself against electrical energy flung at you by a Sith Lord. He isn't leaning on his lightsaber, is he? And even if...you can also do that while standing. And please: To make that situation happen in an actual VS match, where one of the two Sith Lords he's opposing here fights him in lightsaber combat, one would have to assume that they would not kill him after having disarmed him - because I didn't see fighting one handed much, which would be a condition needed for applying force lightning in lightsaber combat.

and the fact that he was the beneficiary of a metaphysical superconductive loop.

See above.

Palpatine, despite that, relented the assault and was proven to have been feigning weakness. Unlike Windu, he had far greater reserves of energy to spare. Don't presume to imply that the two were somehow on parity in terms of Force energies.

Looking at the movie, Sidious is attempting to kill Mace Windu with all he has, while the Jedi is working his lightsaber closer and closer to Sidious. Unless you want to tell me that Windu wasn't able to continue this for another 30-60 seconds, Sidious would still have ended with a lightsaber right through his body.

Aside of that: No. I'm not implying that Mace was on parity with Sidious in terms of force energies. I'm just implying that Dooku might be closer to Sidious in terms of force powers than you think - and that both Maul and Dooku might be able to defeat Sidious in straigth lightsaber combat individually, if you take into consideration that he didn't take the weapon up for a decade and Maul and Dooku are pretty skilled in that department.

Then what are you suggesting, Nai? That in a strict Force fight, two opponents will always overcome the numerically inferior, regardless of their relative Force mastery?

No, Gideon? Then tell me what "sufficient skill to defeat Sidious" would be and how it should be demonstrated. In fact, the only two beings you see fit for the job of facing Sidious, are Mace Windu and Yoda. Surprise, surprise.

Mace Windu was able to overcome Darth Sidious through Vaapad, which is reputed to be the deadliest of all of the lightsaber forms (something that Count Dooku is not a master of). In a strict Force engagement, I doubt he'd do anything other than fall down and die in a most painful, gory manner. Only Yoda has demonstrated the skill and power required to challenge and defeat Darth Sidious in any arena.

So the "demonstration" of said skill-level would involved keeping up with or defeating Yoda, Mace or Sidious himself. Great. That are two people the Dooku in the continuum would either fear, love or at least respect as "Masters", possible not going all out on them, and one being he considered to be one of his closest friends whom he only confronted once, in a "fight" that was more "talk" then "battle".

I'm not sure at what you're getting at, Nai. Count Dooku isn't an adept in the "deadliest lightsaber" form that enabled Windu's victory over Sidious, nor is he as great as Yoda is as a swordsman or Force user. That is why I remain unconvinced that he can defeat Sidious alone.

One must love the clinging to a metaphor. Vaapad is a lightsaber style and a mindset. Which of these two things do you think should be able to summon a "superconducting loop" that takes "Darkness" from person X, then draws it to person Y, who takes it and channels it back to person X again?

I can answer that it's not the mindset, because Windu, according to the RotS novel, once being submerged into Vaapad, fights Sidious "without intervention of his mind" and is using the force to find the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord. So do the lightsaber moves now form a superconducting loop?

Ah well. Apparently, the "superconducting loop" is how Mace percieves his Vaapad working. Shall we take that literally? I don't think so. Why not? Because neither the mindset nor the bladework offer an explanation for this phenomenon. Logically, Mace Windu can just wield his own powers around, no matter who he's fighting. The point is that Windu stays Windu, regardless of whom he is fighting. Essentially his Vaapad [the mindset] brings him to the edge of the Dark Side but doesn't let him fall to it. And what does using the Dark Side do with a force user? It makes them stronger in combat.

Hence he get's stronger once submerged into Vaapad. He reaches his personal "z0ne" somewhere on the edge of the Dark Side. And from there he's practically engaging Sidious in lightsaber combat with mere automatism, which obviously prevents him from using the force to "drain" power away from Sidious and channel it back on the Sith Lord. And please: If that really should be your explanation of how Vaapad works, then I don't see any reason to limit the "superconducting loop" stuff to Mace fighting Dark Siders.

Except that you still haven't proven that Dooku is capable of creating the same metaphysical loop. Hence why, again, I remain unconvinced that he could defeat Sidious in combat.

According to the novel. And even there he wasn't almost killed by the lightning but by his own lightsaber being pushed into his head - which doesn't happen in the movie.

...Which was caused by the strength of the lightning.

Which is somehow not true for Darth "Mr Martial Arts" Maul? Or are you more thinking about Count "I can block overhead swings from the Chosen One with the cyborg arm Skywalker and the Jedi Council Member Kenobi with one hand" Tyranus, aka Dooku, who was - as quoted by yourself - descriped as fit as a man half his age.

No one denied that they weren't physical specimens or that they couldn't necessarily achieve victory if in the same position as Mace was. But that's the part that leaves this up for debate: you can't prove that they'd ever get that far.

Which would have so much effect in an attempt to defend yourself against electrical energy flung at you by a Sith Lord. He isn't leaning on his lightsaber, is he? And even if...you can also do that while standing. And please: To make that situation happen in an actual VS match, where one of the two Sith Lords he's opposing here fights him in lightsaber combat, one would have to assume that they would not kill him after having disarmed him - because I didn't see fighting one handed much, which would be a condition needed for applying force lightning in lightsaber combat.

Except that Palpatine was on his ass, not pushing forward, but forward and up.

But again, no one denied that these two couldn't necessarily achieve the same thing if in that position.

Aside of that: No. I'm not implying that Mace was on parity with Sidious in terms of force energies. I'm just implying that Dooku might be closer to Sidious in terms of force powers than you think - and that both Maul and Dooku might be able to defeat Sidious in straigth lightsaber combat individually, if you take into consideration that he didn't take the weapon up for a decade and Maul and Dooku are pretty skilled in that department.

Nai, no one said that Sidious was miles above Dooku. He's not. But they're not equals. And no one denied that Maul and Dooku would take the lightsaber fight. In fact, I do believe I even contended that not only could they, but they would.

Originally posted by Gideon
Then what are you suggesting, Nai? That in a strict Force fight, two opponents will always overcome the numerically inferior, regardless of their relative Force mastery?

Unless the numerically inferior can either destroy opposition with a fast movement there or keep up against the oppositions combined force powers while attacking himself. I don't see Sidious doing that against Maul and Dooku.

Mace Windu was able to overcome Darth Sidious through Vaapad, which is reputed to be the deadliest of all of the lightsaber forms (something that Count Dooku is not a master of). In a strict Force engagement, I doubt he'd do anything other than fall down and die in a most painful, gory manner. Only Yoda has demonstrated the skill and power required to challenge and defeat Darth Sidious in any arena.

Yes. Because he's the only being who attempted to defeat Sidious in any arena. Or did you see any other PT Jedi attempting to challenge Sidious in a force contest?

I'm not sure at what you're getting at, Nai. Count Dooku isn't an adept in the "deadliest lightsaber" form that enabled Windu's victory over Sidious, nor is he as great as Yoda is as a swordsman or Force user. That is why I remain unconvinced that he can defeat Sidious alone.

No. Count Dooku is a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat", in Yoda's words equal to Mace on equal ground in the lightsaber department. Yet he is, apparently, a greater force user than Mace Windu.

Except that you still haven't proven that Dooku is capable of creating the same metaphysical loop. Hence why, again, I remain unconvinced that he could defeat Sidious in combat.

I wonder why I even attempted to explain why we shouldn't take that "superconducting loop" thingy literally, when you just ignore the point...

...Which was caused by the strength of the lightning.

...which still doesn't happen in the higher level canon.

No one denied that they weren't physical specimens or that they couldn't necessarily achieve victory if in the same position as Mace was. But that's the part that leaves this up for debate: you can't prove that they'd ever get that far.

Let me see: Dooku was said to be equal to Mace Windu in the lightsaber department, but yet he's, as it seems, a greater force user. Maul defeated a being equal to TPM Mace Windu in the lightsaber department, besides the fact that he almost managed to kill Sidious after spending weeks on a remote planet, hungry and chased by a hord of killer droids. That aside from the fact that they both benefit from the Dark Side combat boost that Mace can just archieve by submerging himself into Vaapad.

Except that Palpatine was on his ass, not pushing forward, but forward and up.

Essentially he was "pushing" nowhere. And I don't see how direction would have any effect on some metaphysical force energy-

Nai, no one said that Sidious was miles above Dooku. He's not. But they're not equals. And no one denied that Maul and Dooku would take the lightsaber fight. In fact, I do believe I even contended that not only could they, but they would. [/B]

I was thinking about an all out fight, where just one of the two opponents might be able to engage Sidious in a lightsaber duel, assuming that he could destroy one of the two before they can close up to melee range, Gideon.

As far as the force mastery goes i say Sidious is way above Dooku. Dooku makes it noticeable by the way he harps on how powerful Sidious is, and how he is beyond power. If Dooku was close to Sidious do you think he would harp that much on how powerful Sidious was?

The super-conducting loop is a ridiculously overused metaphor. It says in shatterpoint (that's one book i don't have, so i won't be able to give you the quote right off) that Vapaad used the darkness INSIDE of windu. He would be able to use it against any opponent. Once again,
It's a lightsaber STYLE. Not any kind of special ability. Saying that Mace can only use vapaad against a sith is kinda like saying he can ONLY use his lightsaber against a sith, and that's ridicilous. Vapaad is merely a combination of lightsaber moves that allow the user to touch on the dark-side of the force. Yes, maybe it did form some kind of force-loop with sidious, but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work without doing that. I'm so sick of hearing the words "super-conducting loop" when describing a SABER STYLE. It doesn't even make sense.

Originally posted by truejedi
The super-conducting loop is a ridiculously overused metaphor. It says in shatterpoint (that's one book i don't have, so i won't be able to give you the quote right off) that Vapaad used the darkness INSIDE of windu. He would be able to use it against any opponent. Once again,
It's a lightsaber STYLE. Not any kind of special ability. Saying that Mace can only use vapaad against a sith is kinda like saying he can ONLY use his lightsaber against a sith, and that's ridicilous. Vapaad is merely a combination of lightsaber moves that allow the user to touch on the dark-side of the force. Yes, maybe it did form some kind of force-loop with sidious, but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work without doing that. I'm so sick of hearing the words "super-conducting loop" when describing a SABER STYLE. It doesn't even make sense.