Originally posted by Gideon
After he caught the tongue, yes.
And he was focusing on catching it before. So?
Most Force sensitives (all of the disciplined ones) demonstrate some sort of precognition in battle.
I wonder what this has to do with seeing things that move with a considerable speed. There is a difference between knowing (by precognition) that some fast object [e.g. a bullet] comes flying at you and seeing the bullet flying at you.
That's preposterous, Nai. Why couldn't he replicate the same feat in combat? This isn't some esoteric Force ritual or a Force Storm; it's Force-empowered speed. That it was a demonstration is irrelevant. It's not as if Maul was comatose or otherwise occupied during the experiment.
Maul wasn't moving nor was he using force speed. Obviously Sidious had to focus on nothing but his force speed in that particular situation and Maul, if he had used force enhanced speed, turning the enviroment into "slow motion", would obviously have been able to perceive Sidious better. Got the point now?
I haven't seen the source in question. I am only going on the statement from Publius, where it says that Darth Sidious demonstrated the ability to "move faster than Darth Maul's eye could follow."
It's the same situation in which he runs his lightsaber so fast around Maul's body that the blade is leaving a blur around the Sith Apprentice.
Obviously the Jedi are equipped with supernatural senses and perception, Nai, hence why they are able to perform many of their feats.
Duh? The only supernatural ability they have in terms of senses is precognition. Did you ever see a Jedi that saw, heared, smelled, tasted (etc) something better than a regular human being? Automatically?
That's not the question. If your contention is that an always angry opponent will deliver the same effects, I direct you to Maul's doomed fight against Obi-Wan. Kenobi gained the upper hand by unleashing his anger. If we apply your logic, if Kenobi had continued to fight angry, he would have crushed Maul, regardless of Maul's superior training, skills, and abilities.
The Dark Side does boost the combat abilities of Dark Side users. Which means that a Sith Lord always stays in that particular "combat boosted" state. Which just means that a Sith not using the Dark Side would probably be a less powerful combatant. I was merely pointing out that Maul attacking Sidious "in anger" would be not much different to Maul attacking people like he always does.
In Attack of the Clones, Labyrinth of Evil, and even the initial discussion between Sidious and Dooku in Revenge of the Sith, Dooku betrays a reluctance to kill Obi-Wan Kenobi, citing that, as Qui-Gon's padawan, "[Kenobi] is practically my grandson." He clearly respects Kenobi on a level that he doesn't with Skywalker, even through his musings without their battle.But he casts this aside when Sidious essentially tells him "No, you've gotta kill him."
Yes. And what happens? Dooku does not kill Kenobi. If he was so eager to do it, he could simply have cut the Jedi Master in half while suspending him mid-air with his telekinesis. Instead he just tossed him through the room, knocking him out. And then he merely trapped him with the metal construction, rather then crushing him with it. Doesn't appear to me as if Dooku did want to kill Kenobi at any cost.
Already addressed, Nai. Really, it's a paper-thin argument. The contention that their feelings were somehow the same is ridiculous.
Apparently, you got me wrong. I was not assuming that Dooku held back on an equal degree to Yoda. I was merely asserting that he wasn't giving all he could against the Jedi Master.
And it wouldn't mean a thing. I'm not interested in your personal attacks on a specific character. I'm simply pointing out that I, actually, can also be as petty as you're being and come closer to making my point from it. The simple directive is stop being petty, Nai. It's not quite on Janus's "LOL YODA OWNED SIDIOUS" and "Dooku fared well against Yoda twice" but it is annoying and it is unnecessary. I'm simply going to ask you to be fair about it.
What kind of "fairness" is it, you expecting from me, Gideon. You're comparing different situations with different people involved having different feelings to their opponent - just to come up with the conclusion that Sidious > Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability, while claiming - at the very same time - that considering lightsaber skill, Dooku is at least Sidious equal. Do you see the fact that this doesn't make much sense?
No, Nai. You've tried this argument before. "Well, we don't know how much [object/planet x] enhanced [character z's] powers ergo we can ignore it." You can't.
No, Gideon. Apparently you aren't getting the point. The point is that Dooku and Sidious were both defeated by Yoda in lightsaber combat - forced to retreat from the battle. What you are attempting here is to put Sidious above Dooku, because Dooku was on a world which enhanced his Dark Side abilities while said action happened.
And that doesn't make any sense, unless you can quantify the amount of power Dooku gained from being there. Especially when Dooku lasts longer in his lightsaber fight with Yoda in AotC (on a "neutral" world), while confronting the Jedi on equal ground (where Sidious was in a position of advantage for most of their duel) and was also able to still ably some nice force manouver while engaging Yoda in a saber lock.
Yet somehow, you simply write that off with "But Yoda was holding back", which also doesn't make much sense in the circumstances of a lightsaber fight. Did Yoda enhance his physical abilities to a lesser degree than he did against Sidious? Was he displaying bladework not on par with what he applied against Sidious? No. If you "hold back" in armed combat, you would still attempt to overwhelm your opponent with all you have, with the exception of using killing blows against him. I didn't see Yoda being close to disarm or - in any sense - defeat Dooku when the Sith Lord decided to run.
According to the script, yes.
Which is a not contradicted G-Canon source, which means that it's a fact until Lucas says it didn't happen.
a.) He disarmed Yoda as well. Dooku? Never been so fortunate. Not even on a world that enhanced his powers.
Yes. In a split second after Yoda did some nice leap to follow the Sith Lord who was practically waiting for him and was landing on a curved surface. Really. Imagine Dooku in Sidious position there, attempting to do the same - and then tell me he wouldn't have managed to do that.
b.) He forced Yoda to flee. Dooku? Never been so fortunate. Not even on a world that enhanced his powers.
And once more: Put Dooku in the same position at the same place. The result would essentially be the same, given that Yoda would once more just redirect the lightning being fired against him and Dooku would just again deflect it back, as he did in AotC. If an explosion should happen, you would once more have Yoda dropping from the edge of the pod while Dooku would probably stay up there.
That one combatant fought Yoda in an environment with no metaphysical advantages and forced a stalemate. Was he disarmed? According to the script. But, equally so, according to the movies, Yoda was, in turn, disarmed by Sidious. And then forced to flee. Dooku couldn't replicate those feats on a world steeped in the dark side. To contend that their feats are somehow equal is ridiculous. Sidious did a better job even when he lacked Dooku's advantages.
Sidious lacked Dooku's advantages, Gideon? He had a position of advantage when fighting Yoda with a lightsaber - something Dooku never had. He had a superior position when he disarmed the Jedi Master - once more a situation in which Dooku never found himself in. And Sidious, despite of that, was first disarmed and then overpowered in the force contest. To conclude from this that he "did better" against Yoda then Dooku did in AotC is simply ridiculous.
Not because I believe that Dooku did an equal or even better job against Yoda. No. Just because you can't compare the fights at all. Face it: Dooku and Sidious both had advantages while fighting the Jedi Master. In Dooku's case it was Yoda not wanting to kill him [AotC, DR] and him being aided by the Dark Side power of Vjun [DR]. Sidious held a position of advantage during their lightsaber duel [making it easier him to fight Yoda] as well as he held the superior position while disarming him and during their force contest.
Yet the result of the lightsaber fights, in both cases, is Yoda overcoming his respective opponent. So since you can't compare the advantages [or Yoda's disadvantages for that matter], you also can't compare his two opponents. The only reasonable conclusion you can draw from that two fights is, that Yoda is superior to Dooku and Sidious as well in terms of lightsaber ability.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yoda still kicked his ass while they were fighting on Vjun. I daresay that Sidious, being Yoda's equal on neutral ground, would be capable of defeating Yoda on Vjun, a dark side-empowered planet.
Since when, in the blue hell, is Sidious Yoda's equal on neutral ground. Fighting Yoda, while maintaining a position of advantage twice himself, he gets disarmed and then overpowered in the force contest by Yoda. That means he's not even "equal" to Yoda, when he fights him out of a position of advantage. Which would mean that he isn't Yoda's equal on neutral ground. I'm afraid.
Um, you know that that's, like, Yoda's style to jump circles around his opponent. And you know that he managed to hold the central position? Really, the only time Yoda managed to force him out of the central position, Sidious pushed him away from it, despite it being supposedly a 'position of advantage', which Yoda would want to keep at all costs. Indeed, Yoda was forced to jump so much basically means that he had a hard time actually standing before Sidious' full assault.
If Yoda was indeed Sidious' far superior in the lightsaber department, he wouldn't have supposedly lost the 'position of advantage'.
God damn it. How often can one single being contradict himself in one damn paragraph?
a) The middle of the pod is a position of advantage for Sidious, because standing on a higher ground negates the defensive advantage Yoda has due to his size. Simple fact. Vice versa it's not a position of advantage for Yoda, because having Sidious standing on the higher ground there would mean that either Sidious has to kneel down to continue the fight, or Yoda has to jump up to the Sith Lord.
b) What is it now? Either it's "Yoda's style" to jump around that much, or he was forced by Sidious to do so. In fact it's the first. Thank you for having no argument.
c) There is no position of advantage for Yoda on that pod, unless he and Sidious would be standing on equal ground, which would make it harder for Sidious to fight the small Jedi Master. Does that happen? No.
d) Thanks for ignoring the end of the lightsaber duel, which has Yoda disarming Sidious. End of story. Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat.
Oh my f*cking god. The only time Yoda briefly gained the center of the pod location, Sidious forced him back into jumping around. So, yeah, Sidious was capable of maintaing the supposed superior position- if Yoda was indeed superior, he would've been capable of staying in it after he forced Sidious out of it. He failed epically.
Face it- Yoda and Sidious are equals in lightsaber combat, which is more than I can say for Dooku.
www.sidious-was-disarmed.com/dont-argue-it-idiot.html
'Force abilities'? Oh, come ON. Dooku is a force beast, but Mace's feats aren't exactly outclassed and destroyed by him. As I've said before, his feats, in their sheer power, trump Dooku's.
Yeah. Correct, Molly.
The only real "powerful" feats we see from Mace Windu are linked to telekinesis - are department that Dooku was known for having mastered to an extremely high degree - he even gave lessons in the art when he was a Jedi Master. Still Dooku is, by all available source, put about Mace Windu in the force department and - his greatest advantage - he is known for employing force attacks during lightsaber combat.
And, besides, Obsession depicts them as complete equals at best- with Yoda having to run away likely before Mace would have the sufficient time to 'sink into Vaapad' against him. Their actual duel > observations from a fallible, albeit reliable third party.
They do hardly even cross their blades during the duel so how in the blue hell do you want to draw conclusions from that? Especially since it just happens in a comic without any comments from a narrator? Really.
The facts look like that:
- Yoda claims that Mace is "maybe" equal to the Count in lightsaber ability
- Dooku did defeat Mace before and did also defeat Mace's equal in lightsaber combat [Qui-Gon] before - the latter with apparent ease as I should mention, while Jinn was in a better condition, according to his own words.
- Mace in LoE has some problems with Grievous - a combatant that Dooku also with much effort completely controlled during their sparing sessions, despite Grievous lightsaber abilities [right before the events depicted in RotS]
- Dooku's style is still the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's designed for the single purpose to fight other force users
Sorry, by RotS, Mace possesses almost every advantage outside of grace, finesse, and technical ability- from physical strength (smashing durasteel with his bare hands), to speed ('multiple visible blades', depicted as 'invisible' in comparison to Kar Vastor, a physical beast possessing a raw power than rivals Yoda's), to physical conditioning and stamina. Oh, and did I mention that Sidious outclassed Mace in similar attributes? Oh, that's right, I did.
Strength? You did hear about that nice Shatterpoint ability, didn't ya? If the guy is capable of breaking a Corusca gem by simply touching it, I don't think he needs much actual strength to put his fists through durasteel. Actually the scene on Haruun Kal, where he almost breaks the arm of one guy by simply grapping it would be a more powerful demonstration of his physical strength. But then, again, Dooku was capable of matching the cyborg arm of Anakin Skywalker, stopping a full-powered swing from the young Jedi - while holding his lightsaber with his left hand.
Speed? That is determined by force mastery and if Dooku wasn't fast, then I don't see how he could have defeated a younger Mace Windu, a younger Qui-Gon or survive against Yoda for more than 5 seconds.
Physical condition and stamina? Dooku was descriped being as fit as a man half of his age [and Windu is older than 40 years], aside from the fact that he could "refresh" himself in a split second, using the Dark Side of the force.
Right. Sidious > Mace's natural abilities, and Sidious = Yoda. I've already proven that.
Oh yes. You've already "proven" that. I wonder how you managed to do that, since that would be arguing against the highest form of canon. Oh. Ups.
Oh, I'm sure that you believe that Dooku thought something like "Hmm... well, this confrontation is boring. Killing Mace and Yoda would be anti-climatic, so I better run!". He ran away because he was incapable of defeating them- being an arrogant person, he wouldn't run away unless he's in real danger and is met with someone equal or superior to himself.
Yeah. Let's just ignore the freaking fact that he had an entire army of clones coming after him in AotC and Obsessions. But that, of course, could have nothing to do with the fact that he decided to run. Right.
It makes him a more powerful individual and force user, which almost directly applies to lightsaber combat. This is why Anakin tooled Dooku, among other things.
Oh sure, sir. Every powerful force user, not having helt a lightsaber in hand for a decade, will just flick one off his sleeve and defeat the epitome of lightsaber technique in the PT era, who studied the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" for about seven decades. Sure.
Huh? The movie depicts Anakin constantly forcing back Dooku and preventing him from getting the upper hand, even while he was leading him up the staircases- before he was pissed off and while he wasn't working with Obi-Wan. The novel is canonical, and really, it's narration and explanation of canon > your observations.
I wonder. Does "Clone Wars movie" sound soooo similar to "Revenge of the Sith movie" or are you simply inable to read? Clone Wars movie. Dooku duelling Anakin on Tatooine. Dooku flicks out holo-device to show Anakin that his Padawan is in danger. Anakin starts a full-power assault on Dooku, and Dooku blocks the hit, while holding his lightsaber with his left hand. According to you, Anakin should have forced Dooku's own lightsaber into the Sith Lords body. Just didn't happen. Why? Because Dooku is able to match Anakin's strength. Fact.
And sorry. The claims in the RotS novel are simply stupid if you consider the fact that Dooku is a fencer who would never attempt to "parry" swings in a classical fashion but alter the direction of the attacks. Which he, in fact, also does in the movie, one-handed, even while being driven back by Anakin just before Anakin disarms him.
WOW. Way to go. Two of the greatest bladesbeings in the Order who are aware of their target's position as the Sith Master and have their lightsabers ignited and are in a combat stance aren't defending themselves? How very logical.
Excuse me, you pathetic excuse for somebody capable of using logic. The movie has about eight seconds passing, between Sidious igniting his lightsaber and the first Jedi going down. In that eight second the two Jedi who die first DON'T MOVE AN INCH. So no. There was no defensive coming from them. Fact.
Sorry, Dooku would never have been capable of decimating them the same way Sidious did- by killing them with 'blinding' speed before even Mace Windu could react. The same Windu who has speed feats that more than rival Dooku's.
Yeah. Because Dooku has just been shown to literally destroy anybody he encountered [save for Yoda and Mace] in the matter of seconds in "all out fights" due to his vastly superior duelling and force abilities. Including the likes of Ventress, Sora Bulq and Tholme [2vs1], Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker [again 2vs1] . Sorry. Out of that four Jedi, who walked into Sidious office, only Mace does compare to Dooku - and even he only when fully submerged into his Vaapad. The others won't stand a chance.
RIGHT. Which is why they forced Dooku back, why he acknowledged that they- 'clowns'- could potentially defeat him, and why Anakin destroyed him in combat. Oh, and why Obi-Wan managed to shock him with a 'bewilderingly fast' defensive maneuver.
And why he had one of them out of the fight and the other sitting on his ass in less than a minute into the fight. Hooray.
There is no f*cking way Dooku would have been capable of decimating Fisto in five seconds while fighting against Mace Windu, who has, individually, got him on the run during Obsession.
He manages to get rid of a Vaapad practicioner [Bulq] while fending of Tholme at the same time in about five seconds. He also managed to f*ck up Kenobi while controlling Anakin at the same time. So what? And yes. Now Mace alone made him run in Obsession. Of course. It has nothing to do with a freaking army attempting to capture Dooku, nor with the fact that the Count had to save Grievous.
By RotS, Dooku simply isn't capable of defeating Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel-
Prove it or shut up, newbie. He did it before, all evidence points to him still being superior to Windu. You don't have an argument. End of story.
Dooku was even forced to rely on his super battle droids ('cheating', which he abhorred, being a so-called 'gentleman' and honorable fighter) in order to separate the team that was overpowering him, and could only get rid of Obi-Wan via the force- saberwise, he was incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense. While I don't think that Kit is Obi-Wan's equal in RotS, he's close, and actually lasted much less time versus Sidious in comparison to how long Obi-Wan lasted against Dooku in AotC, despite Fisto fighting in tandem with Mace Windu and being considerably superior to AotC Obi-Wan.
You are aware of the goddamn fact that Dooku is known for applying force attacks in lightsaber duels, right? He knocks out Kenobi, Ventress and Bulq with such manouvers. Two of them in 2vs1 situations. What stops him from doing the same to Kit Fisto? Nothing? Correct, Sir! Unless you want to tell me that Mace Windu, not fully submerged into Vaapad, would be as good with a lightsaber as Anakin Skywalker, I don't see anything preventing the Count from force pwning his opposition. I'm afraid.
Yes, he would move with as much speed as Palpatine and be able to destroy two of the best swordsman in the Order's history before Mace Windu could comprehend what happened, and would then destroy Fisto and force Mace back.
Excuse me, idiot. The only one that actually does comprehend what happens, when Sidious jumps on the Jedi, is Mace Windu, who is seen moving into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying at the Jedi. No reaction from Kolar, Tiin or Fisto. The first two die in exactly the same stance they were in, before Sidious did even ignite his lightsaber.
'Cause, you know, he's totally much stronger than Windu and like a gazillion times better than Fisto. He's able to move as fast as Palpatine, too, and Kolar and Tiin weren't even putting up a defense, although they were aware of their target's position as an extremely dangerous Sith Lord, had their lightsabers ignited, and were in a combat stance.
Keep arguing against the movie as long as you want. Tiin and Kolar are not moving to defend themselves. They just stand there and get saber raped, without moving an inch. Fact.
Put Dooku in that situation: There is no way that more than two of the Jedi would be able to attack him in that office. And unless any pair you could come up with would exceed Bulq + Tholme or Anakin + Obi-Wan, he would commit the same combination of force and saber rape then he does to the teams mentioned before.
This doesn't change the fact that Palpatine's speed was beyond Maul's comprehension- I'm sure you don't want to make a case for Maul being faster than Sidious, right? This is pathetic. Sidious is far faster than Maul. He's also faster than Mace, and, for that matter, Dooku.
Like every damn persons speed, if said person was using force speed would be "beyond Maul's comprehension". And hell. Sidious is faster than Maul who isn't moving at all. Woaaaah. Or is he just faster than Maul, after the latter was injured, raddled and hungry? Gre-he-he-at. Hey...I bet I can run faster than Anakin Skywalker in the state he was in, just after Kenobi cut his legs off and he took a lava bath. I must be god.
No- but he was logically channeling his rage and pain in order to attempt to get a surprise attack on Sidious, who, after a few blows, disarmed Maul with a training saber, despite holding back.
Oh my god. A Sith Lord channeling his rage in order to attack somebody? Jesus Christ. Did you ever see that happen before? And yes. After barely parrying Maul's blows, and Maul moving from his spontaneous force rage back to tired, hungry, injured individual again, Sidious disarmed him while holding back. How, in the blue hell, does that mean he can do the same to Maul in top shape? Especially, if you consider, that this isn't TPM "fit with a lightsaber" Sidious but RotS "I didn't touch such a weapon for a decade" Sidious.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when, in the blue hell, is Sidious Yoda's equal on neutral ground. Fighting Yoda, while maintaining a position of advantage twice himself, he gets disarmed and then overpowered in the force contest by Yoda. That means he's not even "equal" to Yoda, when he fights him out of a position of advantage. Which would mean that he isn't Yoda's equal on neutral ground. I'm afraid.
Did you degenerate from ignoring evidence to actual lying? It wasn't Sidious who was disarmed and then thrown down to the floor. Yoda and Sidious, I'm sorry to tell you, were evenly matched for the force duel- hell, due to his superior intelligence and combat tactical ability, Sidious was capable of getting the high ground (he escaped Yoda disarmed? Really? So either Yoda is a dumbass, Sidious is way faster than Yoda, or Yoda didn't disarm him. I choose the latter) and beating on Yoda with the senate pods. Yoda could barely gain the offensive, and it took him considerably more concentration to levitate and hurl the senate pod.
Originally posted by Borbarad
God damn it. How often can one single being contradict himself in one damn paragraph?a) The middle of the pod is a position of advantage for Sidious, because standing on a higher ground negates the defensive advantage Yoda has due to his size. Simple fact. Vice versa it's not a position of advantage for Yoda, because having Sidious standing on the higher ground there would mean that either Sidious has to kneel down to continue the fight, or Yoda has to jump up to the Sith Lord.
Right, because Yoda TOTALLY curbstomped Sidious when they fought in Palpatine's offices. Sorry, they were- from what we've seen- perfectly even, there. If we're to go by the movie, it was actually Yoda who jumped on the pod, originally, implying that Sidious could have gotten into it and forced him out of it- just like he did later on, for the brief moment that Yoda was capable of forcing him out of that position.
Really, if Yoda >>> Sidious in a lightsaber duel, Yoda wouldn't have been forced out of the center of the pod. He wasn't once able to gain a proper offensive in the battle- for the close-ups we see, Sidious is constantly hacking at Yoda, not the other way around.
Originally posted by Borbarad
b) What is it now? Either it's "Yoda's style" to jump around that much, or he was forced by Sidious to do so. In fact it's the first. Thank you for having no argument.
Okay.
Originally posted by Borbarad
c) There is no position of advantage for Yoda on that pod, unless he and Sidious would be standing on equal ground, which would make it harder for Sidious to fight the small Jedi Master. Does that happen? No.
It does, in the beginning of the fight, and Yoda apparently initiates the pod combat. Either he's an idiot, or he prefers to be there. In fact, Sidious was capable of countering his every move during their original engagement.
In addition, Yoda wasn't capable of maintaining the central position even when he forced Sidious out of there. So, if we're to go by your logic, Sidious got the 'position of advantage' even though Yoda was there. You really think Yoda's superior to him?
Originally posted by Borbarad
d) Thanks for ignoring the end of the lightsaber duel, which has Yoda disarming Sidious. End of story. Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat.
No, he didn't, and you haven't come close to proving it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
www.sidious-was-disarmed.com/dont-argue-it-idiot.html
That's supposed to be funny? Or is it supposed to compensate for a lack of a proper argument?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Correct, Molly.
The only real "powerful" feats we see from Mace Windu are linked to telekinesis - are department that Dooku was known for having mastered to an extremely high degree - he even gave lessons in the art when he was a Jedi Master. Still Dooku is, by all available source, put about Mace Windu in the force department and - his greatest advantage - he is known for employing force attacks during lightsaber combat.
Sheer power =/= overall skill with the force. Dooku has never demonstrated a feat that requires the power of decimating hundreds of droids with a force wave, or crushing durasteel with a dark side technique. Of course Dooku's mastery of the force is superior, but I Mace is easily his superior in pure power and sheer scale of force attacks.
Originally posted by Borbarad
They do hardly even cross their blades during the duel so how in the blue hell do you want to draw conclusions from that? Especially since it just happens in a comic without any comments from a narrator? Really.
I'll give you that, true. Maybe you can post the scans so we can more properly analyze the duel?
Originally posted by Borbarad
The facts look like that:
- Yoda claims that Mace is "maybe" equal to the Count in lightsaber ability
'On equal ground'. Vaapad and Shatterpoint are advantages that negate the 'equal ground'- in sheer lightsaber ability, Dooku is easily Mace's superior. I'd even argue that he is the most technically skilled swordsman of the PT.
-
Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku did defeat Mace before and did also defeat Mace's equal in lightsaber combat [Qui-Gon] before - the latter with apparent ease as I should mention, while Jinn was in a better condition, according to his own words.
Hmm...? Where is it recorded that Dooku beat a 'peak' Qui-Gon?
And, he beat Mace when Mace was considerably less powerful. Don't gloss over that information.
Originally posted by Borbarad
- Mace in LoE has some problems with Grievous - a combatant that Dooku also with much effort completely controlled during their sparing sessions, despite Grievous lightsaber abilities [right before the events depicted in RotS]
Very much true, but I don't see how it adds to your points. Both have had 'some problems' with Grievous- however, in both recorded duels of them going up against Grievous, Grievous wielded two lightsabers- not four. And Grievous, being incapable of producing force energy, would make Vaapad's separate advantages utterly useless.
Originally posted by Borbarad
- Dooku's style is still the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's designed for the single purpose to fight other force users
And Vaapad is the deadliest form in existence. With it, he can overcome otherwise superior swordsman, like Sidious. By all means and displays, Mace certainly isn't Dooku's inferior in terms of 'regular' swordsmanship.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Strength? You did hear about that nice Shatterpoint ability, didn't ya? If the guy is capable of breaking a Corusca gem by simply touching it, I don't think he needs much actual strength to put his fists through durasteel. Actually the scene on Haruun Kal, where he almost breaks the arm of one guy by simply grapping it would be a more powerful demonstration of his physical strength. But then, again, Dooku was capable of matching the cyborg arm of Anakin Skywalker, stopping a full-powered swing from the young Jedi - while holding his lightsaber with his left hand.
That's a considerably different matter and you know it. All things considered, Anakin hadn't displayed the physical strength of Mace Windu. In addition, nothing records the utilizing of his Shatterpoint ability against those droids- there's no reason to assume that he did, considering he simply ripped apart durasteel and broke it with his bare hands. If there's no narrator, or proof (for example, if it was written in some data book that "Using his Shatterpoint ability, bla, bla bla...) that he actually utilized it, we have to assume that he didn't.
He also happens to be more built, better conditioned, and younger than Dooku. That helps.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Speed? That is determined by force mastery and if Dooku wasn't fast, then I don't see how he could have defeated a younger Mace Windu, a younger Qui-Gon or survive against Yoda for more than 5 seconds.
Of course he's fast. But Yoda severely outclassed him in speed- the entire description of their fight in the AotC novel explains how Yoda easily avoided all of his attacks and jumped all over him. He never displayed the same speed superiority against, say, Sidious.
I would argue that Dooku is slower than Mace, Sidious, and Yoda, at least in the PT. Of course, speed isn't the only factor in a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Physical condition and stamina? Dooku was descriped being as fit as a man half of his age [and Windu is older than 40 years], aside from the fact that he could "refresh" himself in a split second, using the Dark Side of the force.
Oh, and you don't think Mace was more fit than the average 50 or so old? His physical displays prove that. And, unlike Dooku in his fight with Anakin, there's no record of Mace being severely tired, either.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yes. You've already "proven" that. I wonder how you managed to do that, since that would be arguing against the highest form of canon. Oh. Ups.
Except the highest form of canon does not, in any conceivable way, contradict that.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Let's just ignore the freaking fact that he had an entire army of clones coming after him in AotC and Obsessions. But that, of course, could have nothing to do with the fact that he decided to run. Right.
It could. Once again, scans might help.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh sure, sir. Every powerful force user, not having helt a lightsaber in hand for a decade, will just flick one off his sleeve and defeat the epitome of lightsaber technique in the PT era, who studied the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" for about seven decades. Sure.
Said powerful force users possesses force abilities and speed far beyond Dooku's own- he is also a 'master of every weapon and every' form, which, at the very least, could mean that he has mastered several forms himself. His feat of wiping out three of the Order's greatest swordsman in seconds, while fighting Mace Windu simultaneously, > anything Dooku's done. He also fared better against a more 'unleashed' Yoda.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder. Does "Clone Wars movie" sound soooo similar to "Revenge of the Sith movie" or are you simply inable to read? Clone Wars movie. Dooku duelling Anakin on Tatooine. Dooku flicks out holo-device to show Anakin that his Padawan is in danger. Anakin starts a full-power assault on Dooku, and Dooku blocks the hit, while holding his lightsaber with his left hand. According to you, Anakin should have forced Dooku's own lightsaber into the Sith Lords body. Just didn't happen. Why? Because Dooku is able to match Anakin's strength. Fact.
Accurate. In RotS, however, he is no longer capable of matching Anakin blow-to-blow.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And sorry. The claims in the RotS novel are simply stupid if you consider the fact that Dooku is a fencer who would never attempt to "parry" swings in a classical fashion but alter the direction of the attacks. Which he, in fact, also does in the movie, one-handed, even while being driven back by Anakin just before Anakin disarms him.
LOL, so your opinion of Dooku's style > the narration of a canonical source approved by the ultimate canon? Sorry, bro, that ain't true.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me, you pathetic excuse for somebody capable of using logic. The movie has about eight seconds passing, between Sidious igniting his lightsaber and the first Jedi going down. In that eight second the two Jedi who die first DON'T MOVE AN INCH. So no. There was no defensive coming from them. Fact.
Oh, please. So, you're saying that two of the best bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history- Agen Kolar is given such praise by the omniscent narrator, too- just sat there and went "Hmm... that guy who just drew a lightsaber and lunged at us is probably going to come quietly. I shouldn't try to defend. He seems like a very peaceful fellow."? No way. Even according to the databank, it was purely Palpatine's 'blinding speed' that enabled him to kill three Jedi Masters in instants- they were not capable of defending because Palpatine moved too fast for them to comprehend, although they drew their lightsabers and were logically prepared to fight. Dooku had never once displayed speeds even approaching that.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Because Dooku has just been shown to literally destroy anybody he encountered [save for Yoda and Mace] in the matter of seconds in "all out fights" due to his vastly superior duelling and force abilities. Including the likes of Ventress, Sora Bulq and Tholme [2vs1], Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker [again 2vs1] . Sorry. Out of that four Jedi, who walked into Sidious office, only Mace does compare to Dooku - and even he only when fully submerged into his Vaapad. The others won't stand a chance.
Anakin Skywalker turned Dooku into an utter joke, first of all.
While I will give you that no single person there, aside from Mace, will stand a chance against Dooku in an all-out fight, Fisto is far more skilled than AotC Kenobi (who Dooku didn't kill in one second), and Kolar, regarding the fact that the omniscent narrator held him and Mace to be the perfect team to counter Sidious, is implied to be even more skilled. Both of them are likely to give Dooku an 'okay' fight in a lightsaber duel.
And Mace, while not submerged in Vaapad, has feats of physical prowess superior to the Count's own- his speed is greater, his style is deadlier, and- aside from being able to replicate the Count's advantages via Vaapad, he also possesses the Shatterpoint ability, which he likely mastered to a far greater extent than he had in TPM. I'll certainly give him the nod over Dooku in a lightsaber duel.
Besides, even if Mace and Sidious were to duel again, there's no full guarantee that Mace will just beat him down again. Indeed, the three Jedi essentially functioned as human shields, enabling Mace to comprehend the situation- there exists the possibility that Sidious will be able to simply blitz him and defeat him via that, if they ever duel again.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And why he had one of them out of the fight and the other sitting on his ass in less than a minute into the fight. Hooray.
Totally, which is why he used droids- something he detested and considered 'cheating'- to separate Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Originally posted by Borbarad
He manages to get rid of a Vaapad practicioner [Bulq] while fending of Tholme at the same time in about five seconds. He also managed to f*ck up Kenobi while controlling Anakin at the same time. So what? And yes. Now Mace alone made him run in Obsession. Of course. It has nothing to do with a freaking army attempting to capture Dooku, nor with the fact that the Count had to save Grievous.
Highly impressive, I'll give you that, but Bulq is no Sidious. And Obi-Wan and Anakin were beating on Dooku- Anakin alone was enough to decimate the Count.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Prove it or shut up, newbie. He did it before, all evidence points to him still being superior to Windu. You don't have an argument. End of story.
Right.
Originally posted by Borbarad
You are aware of the goddamn fact that Dooku is known for applying force attacks in lightsaber duels, right? He knocks out Kenobi, Ventress and Bulq with such manouvers. Two of them in 2vs1 situations. What stops him from doing the same to Kit Fisto? Nothing? Correct, Sir! Unless you want to tell me that Mace Windu, not fully submerged into Vaapad, would be as good with a lightsaber as Anakin Skywalker, I don't see anything preventing the Count from force pwning his opposition. I'm afraid.
Yeah, that's nice, but we were not arguing an all-out fight, were we? No, we were arguing a lightsaber duel. And Dooku had never displayed the potency sufficient to kill Fisto in seconds while fighting someone who is, at the very least, his equal, even outside of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.
Indeed, if we're going all-out, I'd tell you that Sidious will kill Dooku with lightning. He certainly has the capability to do so.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me, idiot.
Oh, I'm hurt.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The only one that actually does comprehend what happens, when Sidious jumps on the Jedi, is Mace Windu, who is seen moving into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying at the Jedi. No reaction from Kolar, Tiin or Fisto. The first two die in exactly the same stance they were in, before Sidious did even ignite his lightsaber.
Why didn't they comprehend what was happening? Oh, that's right! Because Sidious demonstrated speed and mastery of force-enhanced attributes vastly superior to Dooku's own. Speed is very legitimate in a lightsaber duel, and will be the main reason as to why Sidious will defeat Dooku.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Keep arguing against the movie as long as you want. Tiin and Kolar are not moving to defend themselves. They just stand there and get saber raped, without moving an inch. Fact.
BECAUSE SIDIOUS IS MOVING TOO FAST FOR THEM TO COMPREHEND. And this isn't some cannon fodder Jedi- it's two of the best swordsmen in the Order's damned history. Dooku had never been capable of curbstomping a formidable Jedi to such an extent.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Put Dooku in that situation: There is no way that more than two of the Jedi would be able to attack him in that office. And unless any pair you could come up with would exceed Bulq + Tholme or Anakin + Obi-Wan, he would commit the same combination of force and saber rape then he does to the teams mentioned before.
Mace + Fisto >>> Bulq + Tholme. And in a pure saber battle, Dooku wasn't capable of overcoming Anakin and Obi-Wan. We're talking a pure saber battle now. Sorry, Dooku has never displayed the speed and ability with the dark side to move faster than the comprehension of two insanely skilled swordsman.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Like every damn persons speed, if said person was using force speed would be "beyond Maul's comprehension". And hell. Sidious is faster than Maul who isn't moving at all. Woaaaah. Or is he just faster than Maul, after the latter was injured, raddled and hungry? Gre-he-he-at. Hey...I bet I can run faster than Anakin Skywalker in the state he was in, just after Kenobi cut his legs off and he took a lava bath. I must be god.
Oh, so you're implying that Maul is faster than Sidious now? Especially when Sidious moved faster than Maul's eye can follow (force speed or not, it doesn't help your vision), and has speed feats- from blitzing two of the finest swordsmen in the order, to beating Kit Fisto and outclassing Mace freakin' Windu, to forcing Yoda on the defensive, that are far greater than Maul's own.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my god. A Sith Lord channeling his rage in order to attack somebody? Jesus Christ. Did you ever see that happen before? And yes. After barely parrying Maul's blows, and Maul moving from his spontaneous force rage back to tired, hungry, injured individual again, Sidious disarmed him while holding back. How, in the blue hell, does that mean he can do the same to Maul in top shape? Especially, if you consider, that this isn't TPM "fit with a lightsaber" Sidious but RotS "I didn't touch such a weapon for a decade" Sidious.
Correction: The instant Sidious fully took control of the situation (him being able to block a Sith rage-powered Maul while being taken by complete surprise is impressive), he effortlessly disarmed Maul- while holding back and using a training lightsaber. Fact.
Besides, his feats with a lightsaber > Maul's, too.