Originally posted by truejediPIS is nonetheless a great reason as to why the creators allowed it. Say, "it was in the movie, accept it" all you want, but the purpose of the EU is to extrapolate. The movie may depict the Ewoks winning in a certain manner, but if the EU can allow for a more realistic telling, then why not?
i don't remember acting like i knew, in fact, i was going to continue to ignore the letters PIS, or else put something along the likes of NURW(no u r wrong) or MRHC (movies are highest canon) or TBU (they blew up) in order to continue the discussion... to be honest, the letters PIS didn't mean much to me, that is until i researched them, and they turn out to stand for the leading conservative political party in Poland.
(Prawo i SprawiedliwoϾ) Now if you say that THEY are all for the GE being the baddest fighting force in the galaxy, my counter is "screw the poles."If i'm way off on YOUR definition of PIS, then you better explain it, because " a character doing something he should not be able to do" is a damn poor explanation for what happened at Endor... If you are trying to say the ewoks should not have been able to defeat the Empire, so therefore it doesn't count, then you better take that crap and pull it OUT of the star wars universe, because star wars is one place where THAT overused definition of PIS DOES NOT APPLY.
Following that piss-poor logic, i refuse to acknowledge Palpatine's force storm (he shouldn't have been able to do that, its just stupid) Boba- Fett living through the sarlaac (no way, the movie made it clear he was going to die...) and, a MUCH BETTER EXAMPLE: we should call Sidious's defeat of three jedi masters in a few seconds a PIS, because it never should have happened and we all know it.Fact is: IT HAPPENED. say it shouldn't have happened all you want, but it did, and chances are, were the situation repeated, by the logic that we use on this forum, it WOULD HAPPEN AGAIN. (unless of course, Anakin is not really on the level of Dooku as of ROTS, becuase his sudden domination of Dooku is unnacceptable, and therefore a PIS., ditto for Grievous losing so pathetically,)
In fact, and in conclusion: If you try to use PIS ONE TIME in star wars, you destroy the VERY FOUNDATION that we use to analyze it.
So i know you weren't trying to use THAT definition of PIS, because that would be more stupid than i believe you possibly could be guilty of, so feel free to ignore those last few paragraphs describing that version of PIS, and feel free to argue with my official response: SCREW THE POLES.
Not to mention, this is the freaking EU forum. If we brought all this up in the PT or OT Forums, Ush is right to b*tch all he wants, but not here.
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
... you're an idiot. Good bye.
so what can i say? oh, there is nothing to say, so i'll just use a trick i've picked up from watching the presidential election, insult the other person, and hope no one notices...."
you are a fool.
Originally posted by Tangible God
PIS is nonetheless a great reason as to why the creators allowed it. Say, "it was in the movie, accept it" all you want, but the purpose of the EU is to extrapolate. The movie may depict the Ewoks winning in a certain manner, but if the EU can allow for a more realistic telling, then why not?Not to mention, this is the freaking EU forum. If we brought all this up in the PT or OT Forums, Ush is right to b*tch all he wants, but not here.
but i repeat, where does it end? by introducing PIS as a valid argument in a fiction forum, you are leaving the door WIDE OPEN for that argument in ANY situation where a fan boy's favorite has lost. e.g. Anakin lost to Dooku badly in episode 2, so he never should have beaten him in episode 3, however, Dooku NEEDED to die as dictacted by the script, SO anakin went ahead and defeated him, though i could argue, that by PIS anakin is still not on the level of Dooku, its was simply a plot device, just as the argument was made that the ewoks couldn't defeat the Empirials, and the script simply gave it to them.
EVERY fight or confrontation that didn't go the way you would have liked in star wars is now open for debate ladies and gentlemen.
I am amazed how a single discussion ends up in personal affairs between our members, but now, going back to the purpose of this post....
How did the rebel pilots defeated the imperial pilots? there are many possible expanations, but based on my analysis these could be the more important: many of the rebels were in fact defected imperials (pilots and military leaders), so they know the tactics and weakness of TIEs and imperial forces, their ships were shielded and their guns were more powerful. While imperials have almost no info about the X-wings or other more advanced rebel ships. That's enough to knock down some TIEs for each downed X-Wing. But they were not invincible, not many rebel pilots survived the run against first Death Star.
Same applies to Mon-cal cruisers vs. imperial star destroyers. The imperial capacity and habit of concentrating fire power forced them to keep shields down to be ble to fight, they couldn't fire from behind a shield. mon-cals remained almost all time with shields up, open them for a short time and fire, and then raise up shields again.
How did the ewoks defeated the empire? because they were far more savage and feroicious than we do know. they may look like little furry balls, but they were a hunter culture, well integrated into their environment. Some tales like 'apocalypse endor' tried to show it.
Were storm troopers that elitesque? i'm not that sure...at the beginning they probably were, when clone troopers were still the main number of their ranks, but as conscripts started to join them, and numbers raised to keep police and political control of the entire galaxy, the training quality and moral began to decay. So by the time of ANH they were not as strong and elite forces as they were. They kept their fame from old times, and most of their success was probably based more on how much they were feared and their huge numbers, than their real fighting capacity as individuals.
How did a farmer boy and a smuggler defeated them anyway? you should remember that some civilians have far more motivation and skills than tarined military, otherwise the american militias wouldn't have the capacity to defeat the british read coats that were the most elite army of 18th century. Guerrilla tactics often used by the Alliance were efficient against the imperial mass moving army/navy, cause have more efficient supply lines, more flexibility, and often more skilled people.
How did Luke could knock down death star? caus ehe was been driven by the force, not the training or the ship capacity. That sense of the surroundings and opportunity gave him the chance to do such a proess.
I think Episode VI is a shame...I felt alot better about the empire during Episodes IV and V o.o but Episode VI just...i wish George Lucas had thought about it...At least show some ties take down at least 1 Mon Cal Cruiser and a Blockade Runner.....and maby a few more X-WINGS and Y-WINGS o.o....No doubt the Rebels are meant to win...but common at least make it seem more REAL and not like a stroll in the park o.o....
Dude, even in the Expanded Universe, I cannot think of many instances where TIE Fighters don't suck unless it is down to individuals, such as Baron Soontir Fel or Biggs (when he was with the Empire). If someone could give me better examples I wouldn't mind hearing them. But I do agree with Ush, for the most part. The Imperials and the stormtroopers have their moments of success, but they really do act like line-up-and-knock-em-down targets for the heroes, as they are meant to for the sake of the story.
I mean, come on. Luke and Leia are standing absolutely still in the chasm scene, and yet the stormtroopers fail to hit either of them while losing a few of their own number. They are like the Nazis in an Indiana Jones film or the henchmen in a James Bond film.
Has no-one honestly never heard of Stormtrooper Syndrome/Stormtrooper Effect? The Principle of Evil Marksmanship?
And anyone who throws 'This is the EU forum at me' will have to argue that with George Lucas, who has stated before that the EU defers to the films. I believe it is a rule in this forum... and if it is not, it should be made one.
We had this discussion privately, REX. With all due respect with yourself and Ushgarak, you and he have both committed to making every event in the movies hyperliteral. Simply because the movies do not show it, it must not happen? We don't see Coruscant in the Original Trilogy -- is it gone? Imperial technology looks absolutely archaic compared to that of the prequel trilogy -- has technology, in that twenty year gap, downgraded? We only see Yavin, Tattooine, Endor, Hoth, Bespin, and Alderaan in the movies -- does the galaxy consist of less than a dozen planets? We only see a few dozen Star Destroyers in the movies -- is that the upper cap of the Empire's forces?
Not to mention the whole moral absolutism that you and he both play. The Empire is wholly evil. Well that contradicts the dangerously obvious theme as spoken by Obi-Wan that "only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Packing a lightsaber and cloak these days, REX?
The long and short of it is that while I respect you both as administrators, you're both deliberately ignoring context and -- in the case of the moral absolutism -- is contradicted by the movies themselves.
A losing argument. But I'll agree to disagree.
Gideon, then how about this? We consider every other character by their different versions. We have OT Luke, we have (ANH, ESB, ROTJ) we also have very many adaptations of luke AFTER those movies.
Instead of saying what happens onscreen couldn't possibly happen in individual fights (Dooku defeating Anakin, then losing to anakin) we use the different adaptations to show that ROTS Anakin is clearly superior to AOTC Anakin. It just makes sense, because HE PERFORMS differently in ROTS.
Now, the Empire, during most EU is indeed a very dangerous fighting unit. However, their OT versions seem to be lacking. Would it be stretching to say those versions of the Empire truly DO suck, but they had times in history when they were a superior fighting force?
(seriously though, i'm not sure of too many actual demonstrations of Empirical military competence, can you give me a few examples beyond the defeat of Hoth, and anything the 501st accomplished that proves their superiority? their numbers do not automatically give them an advantage, and MOST sources show them routinely getting their butts kicked, right up to the point of incompetence. Where are you getting your information that puts them at the absolute top of the food chain when it comes to fighting units?)
With all due respect with yourself and Ushgarak
[Grammar Nazi] Yourself is a reflexive pronoun, and is not actually correct in this situation. Neither Rex nor Ush are performing an action on themselves, so the correct phrasing would be "With all due respect to you and Ushgarak..."
It is my experience that reflexive pronouns are misused primarily when the writer is trying too hard to sound formal, polite, or intelligent. The cure for all three situations: Take it easy, relax. You aren't writing a thesis! [/Grammar Nazi]
This irked me. Thanks for your time.
my biggest pet peeve in grammar is the whole, "I'm going to bring it with me when i go," or variances. Its TAKE. I'm going to take it with me, and BRING it back. If you are taking something away from where you currently are, say take, if you are bringing something to where you currently are, say bring.
Originally posted by truejedi
Gideon, then how about this? We consider every other character by their different versions. We have OT Luke, we have (ANH, ESB, ROTJ) we also have very many adaptations of luke AFTER those movies.
Instead of saying what happens onscreen couldn't possibly happen in individual fights (Dooku defeating Anakin, then losing to anakin) we use the different adaptations to show that ROTS Anakin is clearly superior to AOTC Anakin. It just makes sense, because HE PERFORMS differently in ROTS.
This is a most ridiculous syllogism, born from desperation. I don't know if you're trying to cobble together a point because REX and Ush take it and you're trying to brown nose, but I honestly have no idea how any sane person could argue this case, hence why I am surprised that those two would even make an attempt to argue it.
An individual whose strength in the Force is bound to increase given experience and training is not comparable to the armed forces of a galactic regime.
Now, the Empire, during most EU is indeed a very dangerous fighting unit. However, their OT versions seem to be lacking. Would it be stretching to say those versions of the Empire truly DO suck, but they had times in history when they were a superior fighting force?
Yes. Movies operate through certain rules: Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, and Han Solo aren't allowed to die for the purposes of the plot. Ergo, circumstances are drafted that whenever they are in danger, they walk out relatively unscathed. Due to the demands of the plot. Conditioned Rebel soldiers are annihilated by stormtroopers when Vader captures Leia in the first movie. Luke Skywalker defeats legions of them singlehandedly. Now, if Skywalker happened to be a pistol shot of great repute and training, this issue wouldn't be up for debate. But he's not. The only reason he survived is because he had to for the demands of the plot.
(seriously though, i'm not sure of too many actual demonstrations of Empirical military competence, can you give me a few examples beyond the defeat of Hoth, and anything the 501st accomplished that proves their superiority? their numbers do not automatically give them an advantage, and MOST sources show them routinely getting their butts kicked, right up to the point of incompetence.
I see. And while Jedi Knights and Masters are annihilated by clonetroopers throughout Order 66, one turd fresh from the toilet murders about a dozen troopers when Bail Organa arrives at the Temple. I guess that padawan is greater than Ki Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, and every Jedi in the galaxy minus Yoda and Obi-Wan.
Plot induced stupidity. Jedi are supposed to be practically invulnerable, but for the purposes of RotS, they had to die, hence why they were annihilated by clonetroopers. PIS.
Where are you getting your information that puts them at the absolute top of the food chain when it comes to fighting units?)
The Complete Visual Dictionary and the Ultimate Visual Guide.
then, outright rejecting the idea that they could possibly have been worse in the OT than they were at any other time, (which is really the easy out here gideon) You try to explain their ridiculous defeats as PIS. The problem with sticking PIS into ANY fiction argument, i've already listed above, you haven't tried to refute, because it really is true, if we accept PIS ONE TIME. even a SINGLE time, then the entire system of ranking charcters we have on KMC goes by the wayside. It screws the whole thing over, because anytime i or anyone dislikes the outcome of the fight, we can argue that it was PIS. (death of Darth Maul, defeat of Qui Gonn, Death of sidious by the hand of vader, Vader jumping over obi-wan. (i could argue, that he ISN'T actually emotionally affected by fighting Obi-wan as we always say, but that instead, it was just PIS, and Anakin is clearly going to defeat Obi-wan everytime.) Padme dying, Yoda running from sidious (since he clearly was living on dagaboh in ESB) (so i could argue by PIS, that Yoda is clearly > than sidious)
You starting to get it? PIS isn't valid when discussing fiction. And since fiction is pretty much the only thing with a plot anyway.... its really not valid, if we are going to discuss something like its real, like we do star wars on this forum.
And the crack about Ush and Rex? where did i ever give you the impression i cared what they think? when i formed an opinion that disagreed with your own?
oh, before i forget, i asked you for one example of competence besides hoth by the GE. You told me about the army of the republic killing jedi, and you talked about how the jedi shouldn't have died. If you notice, the death of all the jedi isn't PIS (as you call it) because later sources back up that a jedi didn't have to be all that outnumbered by clones to be outclassed (Evan Piell, counsel member, dying to five clones), 5 clones being the standard "hit squad" on jedi. If that was pretty much procedure, to send 5 clones, then Order 66 makes more sense than you gave it credit for, especially considering quite a number of Jedi DID get away from death-by-clone)
So again, where does the GE actually kick tail?
(without Thrawn, come to think of it, because any book he was in makes it obvious that HE and not his fighting force is the reason for his success)
Originally posted by Gideon
We had this discussion privately, REX. With all due respect with yourself and Ushgarak, you and he have both committed to making every event in the movies hyperliteral. Simply because the movies do not show it, it must not happen? We don't see Coruscant in the Original Trilogy -- is it gone? Imperial technology looks absolutely archaic compared to that of the prequel trilogy -- has technology, in that twenty year gap, downgraded? We only see Yavin, Tattooine, Endor, Hoth, Bespin, and Alderaan in the movies -- does the galaxy consist of less than a dozen planets? We only see a few dozen Star Destroyers in the movies -- is that the upper cap of the Empire's forces?Not to mention the whole moral absolutism that you and he both play. The Empire is wholly evil. Well that contradicts the dangerously obvious theme as spoken by Obi-Wan that "only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Packing a lightsaber and cloak these days, REX?
The long and short of it is that while I respect you both as administrators, you're both deliberately ignoring context and -- in the case of the moral absolutism -- is contradicted by the movies themselves.
A losing argument. But I'll agree to disagree.
You are taking it to a ridiculous extreme and dipping into psychological analysis of babies. The baby does not see his mother, so she does not exist, so the baby cries. Not so, we know that those worlds exist regardless of whether or not they are shown on screen. We are, after all, adults.
Some of it is simply down to when the movies were made, as obviously technology has not downgraded (nor has it improved tremendously), but the only reason it would appear to have gotten worse is only because of how the movies were made. Those are different.
Battle droids fill in for the stormtroopers in the Prequel Trilogy. I am not saying that the stormtroopers never win, because they obviously do in the Battle of Hoth. I am just saying that the stormtroopers should not be thought of as the greatest soldiers ever, because they do lose and they do exhibit terrible marksmanship. There are things outside of the films that carry over the Principle of Evil Marksmanship with stormtroopers and various other bad guy thugs.
The 'moral absolutism' argument is not even relevant at the moment and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up other than to find fault with our views.
This is the bloody EU forum, why is it so important to have everything black and white? The whole point of the EU is to expand on issues. Instead of just "Empire is bad, stormtroopers suck," we can look at a broader picture, create things not seen in the movies.
Seriously, REX and Ush, you really need to lay off the EU, this is it's purpose.
Ok, several points I want to make here, and these are factual pronouncements that are not up to debate or arguing.
1. The films are the primary source of canon and override anything in the EU.
2. 'PIS' is a feeble term used by people to try and escape storyline developments they do not like. You cannot use it to ignore canon. It will not be accepted as an excuse to do so in these forums. The way it is now being used to simply ignore absokutely anything at all that disagrees with some people's points of view is... shocking. So this is an outright ban on the use it in these forums.
3. If you disagree with the rules we have for EU and canon... well, sorry, but that's how it is and it is noit changing. If you want to post here, you do it by our rules.
I would remind you that evern the EU's own canon rules state the supremacy of the films.
Gideon, you are a logical man and I mena no offence but the aruments you have presented above really are very lacking indeed. Statements like:
"Guess C-3P0 and R2D2 can move faster than the speed of light since they evade shots from both Imperial and Rebel marksmen crossing a hall. "
...are the type I would expect from far less rational posters. They walked through a hallway where a battle was going on and didnn't get hit. That's all. Unlikely if you think Star Wars is some kind of girtty hardcore realisitc drama. Barely worth mentioning if you look at it as the light fantasy it is. Did you honestly think our psotion meant we thought we were claiming that C3-P0 moved at light speed? Even as a mockery by exaggeration that was... pretty feeble.
I am unsure why you thought the rest of what you said was some sort of sure-fire set of argument winners. OT technology looks rough and war-torn, sure. But not worse. PT technology is just shinier, as is relevant for the times. It is not shown that that Padawan was better than Mundi. It is just showed he killed a bunch of troopers. Now, you want to take that as proof that from my point of view I must think he is better. But the much more logical approach is that Mundi was surprised and betrayed, whereas that boy was none of those things and was in a much better position to fight. Besides which, it might just have been how it went. The best tennis player in the world does not always play at top form. Unfortunately, the Imperial's continued rubbishness means that argument cannot work with them. They on at Hoth, sure- because they were unbeatable, the Rebels were not equipped enoough to reasonably fight back. But when they COULD fight back at the other places... bye bye Imperial forces. Sorry... but you really have no case at all- none.
I am afraid the reason that Luke et al are so good is because they are heroes and therefore are automatcally brilliant. That's how it is in a setting like Star Wars. If you wanted a setting where the likes of stormtroopers truly are deadly elite soldiers... then you've come to the wrong place in Star Wars. As noted, the rubbishness of stormtroopers is legendary. Good Lord, they couldn't even beat the darn Ewoks...
As an additional, I will not stand for people mis-representing my position. Go and check the canon rules thread. People saying things like the attitude is "If it is not shown it doesn't exist" is a gross misrepresentation fo what is shown in there, and from this sort of false statement follows a mob-like mentality where people jump on a bandwagon spouting lies and unjustified attacks. I have seen otherwise intelligent posters make ridiculously stupid and untrue statements in these forums due to this issue, and it will not be tolerated. Read the thread about canon, and do not exaggerate or give way to hysteria.
TG, the purpose of the EU forum is to discuss the EU. It is NOT to try and re-make Star Wars in your own preferred image. It has its canon rules like everything else. If you truly think that the EU area here is for what you say, then again you were mistaken. The EU is full of contradicitions and errors. We must turn to the canon rules to sort out what is right from what is wrong, but once you start to do that the only logical approach is to apply the canon rules universally, not just when it suits. Now, if you want to make threads saying "Wouldn't it be better if...?" then fine. But you cannot change the canon facts about how things actually are.
Now. The topic of this thread as about the Imperial Navy being the best of the best, and how that doesn't seem to match up. The canon, film given answer is extremely simple- the supposition that the Imperial Navy is the best is not true. It is contradicted on screen. Any EU source arguing otherwise is incorrect. The Battle of Endor shows, conclusively, that the Imperial fleet was rather rubbish. Nothing can ever contradict that, and no desperate cries of 'PIS' can render it or its meaning untrue.
(And as a final statement on the moral absolutism thing- Geroge Lucas himself said that is how it was. So if you think the films are saying otherwise, it is your interpretation that is at fault. And if you seriously think that is what Obi-Wan meant... gah. And you accuse US of literalism?)
That's all there is to it.
If this thread tries to carry on as argument about EU vs films or an attack on our policy I will close.
And NonSensi-Klown- if you keep making posts like your "You're an idiot" one you will receive a warning. If you have nothing to add, then add nothing. Atacking the poster like that is spam and close to flaming and that is another thing I will not stand for.