The Imperial Navy

I have a question. Do we know what storm trooper units were used in the OT. The 501st was at Hoth,were they on Endor? Was it around this time that humans started to become stormtroopers or were the newer breed of clones from a lesser host(then Jango Fett) started being used. That could explain help explain the difference from what we see in the EU and in the movies is the different "versions" of the storm troopers.

Oh and is there some piece of EU that goes into detail about the OT space battles. I'm really interested in reading more about the space battles beside what we see on screen.

GL's comments do indeed suggest that by the time of the OT the troopers were humans or from poorer quality models (seeing as the originals had aged out by then) but I do not know any info on specific units.

Originally posted by Tangible God
This is the bloody EU forum, why is it so important to have everything black and white? The whole point of the EU is to expand on issues. Instead of just "Empire is bad, stormtroopers suck," we can look at a broader picture, create things not seen in the movies.

Seriously, REX and Ush, you really need to lay off the EU, this is it's purpose.

TG, just because this is the EU doesn't make the movies non-canon. In fact, the ineptitude of the GE in combat during the OT is indeed canon, or rather, their inconsistency is canon, because, supposedly, they have shown remarkable military ability elsewhere (i'm still waiting on a single example of that though....)

EU INCLUDES the movies, and EXPANDS on them, but we all know, that when a movie contradicts another source, the movie gets final say. We have argued from that premise ever since the beginnning when the novels starting coming out all inconsistent.

For the record, no one said that the stormtroopers are the finest soldiers in SW lore. You have Echani, the Royal Guard, the Red Guard, Imperial Sovereign Protectors, the 501st Legion, Shadowtroopers, Shadow Guard, Purge Troopers, etc. But they were the mainstay of the most powerful military force in galactic history, REX. Common sense dictates that while they weren't the best seen, they were quite formidable indeed.

But, as I said, I'll agree to disagree with both you and Ush.

Agree to disagree all you like- they are clearly and canonically not very formiddable, save for their vast numbers.

Screw it. I said I'd drop it, so I will.

Most of the elite units- like the Red Guard- seem to be not-so-plentiful, even in the EU. But yes, they do show formidable capabilities. They will never be as lethal as our heroes (unless our heroes for the story are in the Red Guard, a la Kir Kanos, for example).

Originally posted by Captain REX
Most of the elite units- like the Red Guard- seem to be not-so-plentiful, even in the EU. But yes, they do show formidable capabilities. They will never be as lethal as our heroes (unless our heroes for the story are in the Red Guard, a la Kir Kanos, for example).

Kir Kanos is a protagonist. It'd be a stretch to refer to him as a 'hero', since he is a devout and staunch Palpatinist. Under Ush's perspective, that means he's a child rapist.

You guy should check out the fiction forum...

Originally posted by truejedi
TG, just because this is the EU doesn't make the movies non-canon. In fact, the ineptitude of the GE in combat during the OT is indeed canon, or rather, their inconsistency is canon, because, supposedly, they have shown remarkable military ability elsewhere (i'm still waiting on a single example of that though....)

EU INCLUDES the movies, and EXPANDS on them, but we all know, that when a movie contradicts another source, the movie gets final say. We have argued from that premise ever since the beginnning when the novels starting coming out all inconsistent.

That does not mean a contradiction of the movies, but rather an extrapolation. E.g. (and simply for example) Anakin's fervent desire to be a Master in RotS. The movies would have us think he's a whiny little pinhead, but the novelization gives him a more legitimate reason. So why can it not be so with stormtroopers? Granted, the idea that mass-trained troops won't be the greatest is completely valid, but if an EU idea idea provides an alternative in certain situations, why is that so horrid? The movie's do not say the stromtroopers suck, we the viewers perceive it as so. (though I will gladly retract that if you can give me a link to GL saying it)

Such a black and white, "the movies imply so, now shut up" attitude behooves children and haters of expanded thinking. Again, as per the rules of these forums, I'd not argue if this were the OT forum, but as it is...

Originally posted by Gideon
Kir Kanos is a protagonist. It'd be a stretch to refer to him as a 'hero', since he is a devout and staunch Palpatinist. Under Ush's perspective, that means he's a child rapist.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Ush's opinion. It is highly possible for bad guys to be protagonists, Ush has told me this. I mean, look at Darth Vader. He is the antagonist to Luke and Leia, but in his own plot of obeying the Emperor and seeking his own path, he is the protagonist.

Protagonists do not necessarily need to be out-and-out good guys.

And I'm not saying they are morally gray...

Originally posted by Captain REX
I think you're being a bit harsh on Ush's opinion. It is highly possible for bad guys to be protagonists, Ush has told me this. I mean, look at Darth Vader. He is the antagonist to Luke and Leia, but in his own plot of obeying the Emperor and seeking his own path, he is the protagonist.

Protagonists do not necessarily need to be out-and-out good guys.

And I'm not saying they are morally gray...

REX, you referred to Kanos as a 'hero.' He's not. He's a protagonist; they're not the same thing. I was simply correcting you and poking fun at Ushgarak's stance on Star Wars morals.

Hero, protagonist, you get what I meant. No need to nitpick what word I used.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Ya... never said the movies were non-canon. My peeve here is certain people's viewpoint that just becuase what we see in the movies is poor performance of stormtroopers, amounts to a generalization of poor performance by ALL stormtroopers. My peeve is that certain people won't accept an alternative explanation to what's seen.

That does not mean a contradiction of the movies, but rather an extrapolation. E.g. (and simply for example) Anakin's fervent desire to be a Master in RotS. The movies would have us think he's a whiny little pinhead, but the novelization gives him a more legitimate reason. So why can it not be so with stormtroopers? Granted, the idea that mass-trained troops won't be the greatest is completely valid, but if an EU idea idea provides an alternative in certain situations, why is that so horrid? The movie's do not say the stromtroopers suck, we the viewers perceive it as so. (though I will gladly retract that if you can give me a link to GL saying it)

Such a black and white, "the movies imply so, now shut up" attitude behooves children and haters of expanded thinking. Again, as per the rules of these forums, I'd not argue if this were the OT forum, but as it is...

Basically, if you were 'never saying' the movies were non-canon, then the rest of your post is pretty much a waste of time. You're just not understanding how the canon works. You cannot try to worm out of it by saying something that boils down to "Oh, maybe it's just the crap ones that we see in the films." Aside from the Emperor thinking those on Bespin were his finest, that's just now how the concept works. The films establish the canoin concepts that stormtroopers are mass produced rubbish. And I am sorry, that's where it ends. Ok, if an EU novel wants to do a story about a single stormtrooper unit that IS good, then that's fine, but any attempt to make out that stormtroopers were generally elite troops... is in contradiction and that's that. And honestly, if after watching the factual performance of troopers on-screen you DON'T think they are rubbish then... you are taking a blind stance not worth arguing with. Sometimes, trying so hard to look for an alternative explanation is simple denial of the obvious truth right in front of you. But ok, here's the best evidence I can give you, taken from an issue of Insider:

-

"However, there is also an in-universe explanation, provided by none other than George Lucas himself. During the productions of Episode III, Lucas told crewmembers that the stormtroopers seen in Episode IV are made from multiple sources. That is, they're not all Jango clones. By that time in the saga, other clone hosts have been selected.

Lucas intimated that the selection proces has become more political than strategic in some cases - a highly placed officer's cousin might be selected over a more capable specimen, for example. The politicization results in less-than-ideal candidates, which could explain some of the embarrasing marksmanship witnessed in the original trilogy."

-

GL later intimated that the troopers were conscripts as well in some cases, but we cna clearly see that GL was happy with the idea of Clonetroopers being good, Stormtroopers not.

The thing with canon is that it is what it is, good or bad. You cannot pick and choose what you do and do not like. So if you don't like Anankin's fall in ROTS, thast's a reason to criticise ROTS, but it's still the canon fact of the matter. You can speculate- but not change- on what could have made it better.

All that has happened in this thread is a question asking why the Imperial Navy on-screen doesn;t seem to do as wlel as what the poster had understood the Navy to be like. The canon answer is and always will be that what he heard was wrong. Clearly the Imperial Navy wasn't that good, because we saw the Rebels so decisively kick the crap out of it. A fact nothing else can deny.

The Black and White atittude is the Star Wars attitude. If you wanted something more complex, you are again in the wrong franchise. I don't approve of you calling it childish. It is simply logical and in line with Star Wars' own canon rules.

That really is it. No more arguing on this. If you want to discuss it further, take it to PM.

Originally posted by Gideon
Kir Kanos is a protagonist. It'd be a stretch to refer to him as a 'hero', since he is a devout and staunch Palpatinist. Under Ush's perspective, that means he's a child rapist.

No, under my perspective I would say that the EU novels are written by people who don't bother to check the setting they are writing within, basically. Plenty of EU novels have been complete trash because of a lazy approach by authorship.

But it is very very important to note that you absolutely should not confuse a black and white morality setting with a setting where you cannot make characters interesting or give them complex motives. Frankly I always found an obsession with grey areas to be very adolescent anyway.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Basically, if you were 'never saying' the movies were non-canon, then the rest of your post is pretty much a waste of time. You're just not understanding how the canon works. You cannot try to worm out of it by saying something that boils down to "Oh, maybe it's just the crap ones that we see in the films." Aside from the Emperor thinking those on Bespin were his finest, that's just now how the concept works. The films establish the canoin concepts that stormtroopers are mass produced rubbish. And I am sorry, that's where it ends. Ok, if an EU novel wants to do a story about a single stormtrooper unit that IS good, then that's fine, but any attempt to make out that stormtroopers were generally elite troops... is in contradiction and that's that. And honestly, if after watching the factual performance of troopers on-screen you DON'T think they are rubbish then... you are taking a blind stance not worth arguing with. Sometimes, trying so hard to look for an alternative explanation is simple denial of the obvious truth right in front of you. But ok, here's the best evidence I can give you, taken from an issue of Insider:

-

"However, there is also an in-universe explanation, provided by none other than George Lucas himself. During the productions of Episode III, Lucas told crewmembers that the stormtroopers seen in Episode IV are made from multiple sources. That is, they're not all Jango clones. By that time in the saga, other clone hosts have been selected.

Lucas intimated that the selection proces has become more political than strategic in some cases - a highly placed officer's cousin might be selected over a more capable specimen, for example. The politicization results in less-than-ideal candidates, which could explain some of the embarrasing marksmanship witnessed in the original trilogy."

-

GL later intimated that the troopers were conscripts as well in some cases, but we cna clearly see that GL was happy with the idea of Clonetroopers being good, Stormtroopers not.

The thing with canon is that it is what it is, good or bad. You cannot pick and choose what you do and do not like. So if you don't like Anankin's fall in ROTS, thast's a reason to criticise ROTS, but it's still the canon fact of the matter. You can speculate- but not change- on what could have made it better.

All that has happened in this thread is a question asking why the Imperial Navy on-screen doesn;t seem to do as wlel as what the poster had understood the Navy to be like. The canon answer is and always will be that what he heard was wrong. Clearly the Imperial Navy wasn't that good, because we saw the Rebels so decisively kick the crap out of it. A fact nothing else can deny.

The Black and White atittude is the Star Wars attitude. If you wanted something more complex, you are again in the wrong franchise. I don't approve of you calling it childish. It is simply logical and in line with Star Wars' own canon rules.

That really is it. No more arguing on this. If you want to discuss it further, take it to PM.

And they say only Sith deal in absolutes.

And here comes someone else bringing in a complete mis-use of that absolutes line...

When what is said in the EU blatnatly contradicts what is on-screen, then yes, we ignore it. The EU forum happens to run perfectly well like that, actually. It only disappoints those that wish to see Star Wars turned into something it is not- and it remains so, regardless of opinion.

So yes, contrary explanations are dismissed out of hand.

If you want to discuss the canon matter futher, as I say, take it to PM. Futher posting about it in here will be treated as spam.

That's not authoritarian at all. So let me get this straight: even if the movie does not actually give an explanation for something, it's implications are treated as canon?

Hmm... Well, there is the novel Allegiance, for example, which centers around imperial stormtroopers, precisely. In this novel, at least, stormtroopers actually demonstrate to be fairly capable at different combat situations.

Besides, I think that the fact that it has been stated stormtroopers are selected by more politically convenient means doesn't necessarily mean they have to be weak. That only tells us that more capable people are left behind, not that incapable people are chosen. Are some of them likely to be incapable? Yes, but not every single one of them.

I have the book, in case someone would like me to provide quotes.

Please...