3 Jedis vs 3 Siths

Originally posted by Gideon
Why didn't Obi-Wan crush General Grievous with the Force rather than nearly die in melee combat? Why didn't Count Dooku WTFpwn Anakin Skywalker along with Obi-Wan? Why didn't Darth Vader use the Force to destroy Obi-Wan aboard the first Death Star?

Just because they didn't doesn't mean that they couldn't.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence? I'm disappointed in you Gideon. The KMC SWVF hold you in such high regard.

1. Obi doesn't use offensive Force attacks to incapacitate. As Mace would say: 'Its not in his character.'
2. Dooku WTFpwnd Skywalker with a giant conference table at the beginning of his fight- later he was busy fighting a total 'force shutdown.'
3. Vader had something to prove. He had to show Kenobi that he was superior, especially after the way the fight went on Mustafar.

If I was a more vindictive person, I would say that because Suit-Vader's potential/power < Pre-suit Anakin, and by your own argument Anakin 'couldn't overpower Kenobi in the force push duel' then Old Ben must be more of a challenge than Vader wanted on the Death Star. But I'm not going to say that.

(Do you see the logical fallacy?)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Absence of proof is not proof of absence? I'm disappointed in you Gideon. The KMC SWVF hold you in such high regard.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, it's not a fallacy. If there were particular reasons why it didn't happen, I'd concede. But that isn't the case.

1. Obi doesn't use offensive Force attacks to incapacitate. As Mace would say: 'Its not in his character.'

He aggressively hurled General Grievous across the hangar during the initial part of the fight. Why did he not during their brawl where he nearly died?

2. Dooku WTFpwnd Skywalker with a giant conference table at the beginning of his fight- later he was busy fighting a total 'force shutdown.'

The movie showed us the entire fight and it didn't happen.

3. Vader had something to prove. He had to show Kenobi that he was superior, especially after the way the fight went on Mustafar.

And humilating him by a serious and quick beatdown with the Force wouldn't have done better?

If I was a more vindictive person, I would say that because Suit-Vader's potential/power < Pre-suit Anakin, and by your own argument Anakin 'couldn't overpower Kenobi in the force push duel' then Old Ben must be more of a challenge than Vader wanted on the Death Star. But I'm not going to say that.

Because pre-suit Anakin's mastery of the Force doesn't compare to suited-Vader's.

(Do you see the logical fallacy?)

Committed by you? Yes. All of them.

Originally posted by Gideon
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, it's not a fallacy. If there were particular reasons why it didn't happen, I'd concede. But that isn't the case.

Originally posted by Gideon

He aggressively hurled General Grievous across the hangar during the initial part of the fight. Why did he not during their brawl where he nearly died?

Movie > novelization. In the movie Kenobi looked like he was handling the General easily. He never 'almost died'.

Originally posted by Gideon

The movie showed us the entire fight and it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Gideon

And humilating him by a serious and quick beatdown with the Force wouldn't have done better?

Originally posted by Gideon

Because pre-suit Anakin's mastery of the Force doesn't compare to suited-Vader's.

Originally posted by Gideon

Committed by you? Yes. All of them.

I made one during the 'if I was..." portion. One =/= 'them'. Singular. I even pointed it out for you.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I never said it was a fallacy, I just said it was a weak argument. And there are reasons why it didn't happen.

A weak argument? The facts say that Palpatine is a better Force user. That he didn't crush him with the Force in one duel isn't a weak argument since we have numerous examples of these discrepencies.

Movie > novelization. In the movie Kenobi looked like he was handling the General easily. He never 'almost died'.

I know you're going to equate this to me having a problem with those who disagree with me, but I'm beginning to become annoyed by you, because it seems all you do is try to disagree with me. And when you do, you have no point.

The novelization actually depicts Obi-Wan doing far better than he actually did against the General. And I'm referring to their brawl at the very end, where he was beaten and nearly hurled off of a cliff. Why did he not use the Force, then?

Because Kenobi didn't defeat him with the force, quite frankly, no. He needed to prove that he'd surpassed Kenobi in Saber ability. If he did it some other way, he wouldn't have proved himself.

He was already better than Kenobi in lightsaber combat. Point moot.

There you go. All three points shot down.

Originally posted by Gideon
A weak argument? The facts say that Palpatine is a better Force user. That he didn't crush him with the Force in one duel isn't a weak argument since we have numerous examples of these discrepencies.

Originally posted by Gideon

I know you're going to equate this to me having a problem with those who disagree with me, but I'm beginning to become annoyed by you, because it seems all you do is try to disagree with me. And when you do, you have no point.

Originally posted by Gideon

The novelization actually depicts Obi-Wan doing far better than he actually did against the General. And I'm referring to their brawl at the very end, where he was beaten and nearly hurled off of a cliff. Why did he not use the Force, then?

Originally posted by Gideon

He was already better than Kenobi in lightsaber combat. Point moot.

There you go. All three points shot down.

I don't disagree that there are examples of PIS in the mythos, but I would hesitate to call these PIS.

Originally posted by truejedi
i have never said mace is superior to sidious, and you know this, and its ridiculous to act like i don't. My point is: Mace would NOT be limited to using only the force if attacked through the force by Sidious. if, in a 1 on 1 duel, why should it go ANY differently than the duel we already see in ROTS. Thats what isn't making sense to me. Its been fought. If sidious could kill mace with the force, in the middle of a saber duel, my contention he would have done so.
Why do you think he was so merciful to mace if mace could be removed quickly at any time with a force attack?

this is an old debate. Mace beat sidious in the intitial part of their debate. Period. End of debate. It was a fair fight, and it was an all-out fight. Show me one source that says otherwise, and you will have an argument. All you have now is your supposition and you reasoning that sidious is stronger in the force so mace shouldn't win. What their duel did prove actually is that mace is a better duelist.

Gideon, i ask you again, just as i asked you before, and you didn't answer. Why should their duel go down any differently in this thread than in the movie? You ascertain that Sidious would fry mace with the force. Putting aside the fact that i disagree with you, and ignoring that for the moment, Why would he? as you said yourself just now, just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. Sidious didn't attack mace with the force before when given the opportunity. Why would he do so now? Thats the crux of my argument. Why would he go all out trying to fry mace or w/e force attack he used, if he didn't before?

oh, and the ignoring the disagreement over sidious level of superiority over maces is now unpaused:

Sidious is > mace with the force. No question. However, just because a being is superior in the force doesn't mean they are superior enough to destroy the opponent without using their lightsaber. Obi-wan, Dooku, AOTC. Dooku was clearly superior to Obi-wan, attacked him with the force, and failed to breach his defenses, so then attacked him with a lightsaber. You have yet to prove that Sidious is far enough past Mace in the force to simply overwhelm any force defenses mace might have regardless. Superior? Yes. THAT SUPERIOR? speculation. (since, sadly, we never see sidious do exactly that(though you suppose he could))

This is not intended to be a personal attack, but your response indicates a complete ignorance of what the versus forum is all about. Unless there is a specific, quantifiable reason for a certain action not being performed, we must assume that it can be done. For example, Darth Sidious never displays the ability to telekinetically throttle someone throughout the whole of canon. If we apply your logic, it would mean that Sidious is incapable of the relatively simple feat of Force choke, even though Darth Vader instinctually grasps the concept on his very first day on the job. There is no reason or cited limitation that prevents Darth Sidious from Force choking someone, but he has never done so in the whole of canon.

Meanwhile, Darth Bandon has never displayed the ability to summon hyperspace wormholes like the Emperor. Does that mean that he can somehow do it? No, we mustn't assume so, since the ability to create a Force Storm requires an extraordinary knowledge of the dark side and extraordinary control and he hasn't exhibited the requisite strength to summon such techniques.

That Darth Sidious did not use the Force against Mace Windu before or during their lightsaber duel does not, for a second, mean that he is incapable of doing so. Mace Windu's own musings indicate that he is of the opinion that he is relatively weak compared to Master Yoda, Kar Vastor, or Anakin (in Skywalker's case, raw power). By standard feats alone, he does not demonstrate the same strength in the Force, either. Even his mastery of the unique Vaapad lightsaber form, he is not afforded protection, immunity, or superior strength compared to Darth Sidious in Force mastery or aptitude. Kar Vastor, someone who is considerably stronger than Windu in the Force, is likewise inferior to Darth Vader, who is weaker than the Emperor.

Your citation of Dooku's duel with Kenobi is not relevant here. Dooku was unable to breach Obi-Wan's defenses with Force lightning due to Kenobi's lightsaber. Telekinesis =/= lightning and a lightsaber does not protect a Force user from telekinesis. Moreover, Count Dooku's Force lightning is not the same as Darth Sidious's lightning.

so then you are saying, in your honest opinion, that at any time in his duel with windu, he could have picked him up and thrown him out the window himself? Would this go for any force user at or below mace's skill level? Using the force to attack with takes concentration gideon. Concentration sidious was not afforded in his duel with windu BECAUSE they were using lightsabers. Sure, if mace and sidious stood ten feet apart, and sidious bombarded Mace with TK, maybe, i dunno, chuck a few senate pods his direction. It might work, i'll give you that. But could sidious get enough concentration while fighting off a superior saber duelist to deliver such an attack.

(and as for the comment about the purpose of the SWVF, my point was valid. The whole point was, if he could have, he would have, because he was trying to win.) I was not saying, he could have, he just didn't.

finally, TK seems an easier force attack to block than sidious's lightning, so i think that saying Mace coudl defend against his lightning, but not his TK is ignoring the fact that COUNTLESS jedi and sith have demonstrated an ability to block TK attacks. (obi-wan, the weakest link in force defense that we know of as an example off the top of my head)

In POD, blocking TK attacks is described as one of the first things learned by beginning sith. I would think a jedi of Mace's stature would know the technique as well. Saying that mace can't block a TK attack because he never demonstrated it, is the SAME as saying that sidious can't force choke. Both are obviously not true. Once again, then it falls to :is sidious strong enough in the force to overpower mace's TK defense, and utterly take him out, while fighting a distracting lightsaber duel with a superior saber duelist, and before Yoda can kill dooku."

It took 40 seconds for Dooku to try to flee in his duel with yoda, in which he started out believing he was superior.

Can sidious take out mace in that time, even with an all-out force attack? You decide. I watched them duel once. mace won. I'll take him as the favorite.

We're done. I give up. I'm tired of doing this.

it really comes down to intepretation anyway... we've both stated our sides pretty clearly. what would be the point of continuing?
apparently more people agree with you, according to the pole anyway, so looking at both sides of it is worth something i suppose.