To all religious people....

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Which wouldn't lead to the same evil, because political ideologies and scientific principles aren't dealing with eternal life, eternal damnation for not adhering, supposedly infallible doctrines, teachings, and edicts, and blind adherence to things without evidence.

I conceded that people can justify evil in a variety of ways. But you're acting like the delirious faith that religion inspires could be matched by other avenues of life. The nature of religion's subject material, and its subsequent affect on people, ensures that you're wrong.

I really don't know about that. Nazi sympathisers are just as irrational as religous fundamentalists. In fact it can be argued that they are more irrational and more dangerous. You also assuming that everyone who uses religon as a justification for evil actually believes in at all.

Anyone that denies my right to rule the world is evil and must be destroyed 😈 😛

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I really don't know about that. Nazi sympathisers are just as irrational as religous fundamentalists. In fact it can be argued that they are more irrational and more dangerous. You also assuming that everyone who uses religon as a justification for evil actually believes in at all.

Anecdotes. I've never made the argument that evil would go away, or that there wouldn't be irrational evil, which is the only thing those points would prove wrong. There would still be evil. But there would be less, due to humanity's reluctance to give up their entire mind and body to a cause that is anything less that what religion promises (eternal rewards, communion with God, etc.). It would still happen, but on a smaller scale, since "perfect storms" of cultural poverty mixed with xenophobia like Nazi Germany will turn bad regardless of the religious circumstances surrounding it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But the original, and I think current, point is that religion causes more bad than good because of faith's ability to push people irrationally past a point that they would otherwise go.

There is very strong evidence that people who are religious are happier, live longer, have stronger social networks and thus social safety nets, have more well behaved kids, etc...

EDIT: The vast majority of assault and violent crime, I'm guessing, is not religiously motivated. Clearly religion is not unique in its ability to "make people do bad things" (because we aren't responsible for our own actions)

Originally posted by inimalist
There is very strong evidence that people who are religious are happier, live longer, have stronger social networks and thus social safety nets, have more well behaved kids, etc...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I have never really bought into that it is religion that does that but more of a state of belonging to something other than the religion it self.

indeed

I don't think it is supernatural at all. Yet, there are few, if any, similar secular or "atheistic" institutions that fill that same role for people.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Anecdotes. I've never made the argument that evil would go away, or that there wouldn't be irrational evil, which is the only thing those points would prove wrong. There would still be evil. But there would be less, due to humanity's reluctance to give up their entire mind and body to a cause that is anything less that what religion promises (eternal rewards, communion with God, etc.).

*sigh* I knew you would assume I don't understand your point. I didn't say that you said evil would go away and I didn't think that was your point. Theres no need to highlight less because I got that point the first time.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

It would still happen, but on a smaller scale, since "perfect storms" of cultural poverty mixed with xenophobia like Nazi Germany will turn bad regardless of the religious circumstances surrounding it.

Yes we both agree that there would still be evil. What im disagreeing on is that without religon things would be better. Stating that Nazi Germany would have happened without religon doesn't prove your point either. So what do you consider to be evidence that there would be less evil without religon?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So what do you consider to be evidence that there would be less evil without religon?

Faith. And it's unmatched ability to push people past limits of morality that they otherwise wouldn't, by encouraging belief without evidence and rewarding irrational acts because it displays servitude. Other forces occasionally resemble the affect faith has on people, but no single force (political, ideological, philosophical, etc.) affects the billions that faith does in such a profound way.

Take it away and yeah, I think the world would be a better place. The good would stay. Some of the evil would too. But the nigh-cliche quote rings somewhat true: only religion has the ability do make good people to bad things. Others things might be able to do the same, but not to the same extent.

Of course, proof in a literal sense would require testing, which we can't do because it would require massive social change. But it's my opinion, and I feel it's backed by fairly solid logic.

Originally posted by inimalist
There is very strong evidence that people who are religious are happier, live longer, have stronger social networks and thus social safety nets, have more well behaved kids, etc...

EDIT: The vast majority of assault and violent crime, I'm guessing, is not religiously motivated. Clearly religion is not unique in its ability to "make people do bad things" (because we aren't responsible for our own actions)

For the latter, no, religion isn't unique in that sense. I never claimed it was. Most good/evil is because of the person's disposition, and has nothing to do with their religious beliefs.

As for evidence that religious people are happier, etc. I'd be interested to see the studies that were done. My first reaction is that there aren't enough atheists in a given area to form an accurate control group to compare it against. Or that it might be due to the fact that they aren't as socially accepted, not because atheism is inherently less "happy." It would make sense to me that minorities of any sort would be slightly more prone to such problems than whatever is accepted as mainstream.

I agree with Digimark007 completely.
Also, just to add a little humor to this, watch the 2 part South Park special "Go God Go". It is a funny take on the world without religion.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
I agree with Digimark007 completely.
Also, just to add a little humor to this, watch the 2 part South Park special "Go God Go". It is a funny take on the world without religion.

Is that the one where science becomes the new religion?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Is that the one where science becomes the new religion?

Which is a humorous episode, but not really feasible. Science promotes provisional truths based on repeated experimental testing. It doesn't deal in morals, absolutes, and blind faith.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Which is a humorous episode, but not really feasible. Science promotes provisional truths based on repeated experimental testing. It doesn't deal in morals, absolutes, and blind faith.

Sadly that doesn't describe people, which is the point. It doesn't matter what reasons there are or aren't for fighting, people will come up with something to blindly follow.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sadly that doesn't describe people, which is the point. It doesn't matter what reasons there are or aren't for fighting, people will come up with something to blindly follow.

Perhaps, but we're starting to go in circles now, because I'm about to make the point that faith in a God that promises eternal rewards inspires far greater blind adherence (both in number and degree) than other forces ever could, because they don't hold the same import.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Perhaps, but we're starting to go in circles now, because I'm about to make the point that faith in a God that promises eternal rewards inspires far greater blind adherence (both in number and degree) than other forces ever could, because they don't hold the same import.

My faith isn't blind...in the sense that I doubt it all the time...though I suppose it is in the sense that I have never lost faith...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
My faith isn't blind...in the sense that I doubt it all the time...though I suppose it is in the sense that I have never lost faith...

It's blind in the sense that you don't have evidence in the form of sensory perception, empirical testing, or in some cases even logic to support most or all of what you believe. Nearly all belief in paranormal phenomenon is the same way: lacking evidence, and based on faith. Questioning one's belief doesn't mean it isn't blind.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Perhaps, but we're starting to go in circles now, because I'm about to make the point that faith in a God that promises eternal rewards inspires far greater blind adherence (both in number and degree) than other forces ever could, because they don't hold the same import.

Stalin. Hitler. It's easy as long as you have someone charismatic and a little bit crazy or a little bit evil. The vacuum that would be left by removing religion would fill up with something at least as bad.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Stalin. Hitler. It's easy as long as you have someone charismatic and a little bit crazy or a little bit evil. The vacuum that would be left by removing religion would fill up with something at least as bad.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It's blind in the sense that you don't have evidence in the form of sensory perception, empirical testing, or in some cases even logic to support most or all of what you believe. Nearly all belief in paranormal phenomenon is the same way: lacking evidence, and based on faith. Questioning one's belief doesn't mean it isn't blind.

“Our faith is not born from a myth or an idea, but from an encounter with the Risen One, in the life of the Church.” -Benedict XVI

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Stalin. Hitler. It's easy as long as you have someone charismatic and a little bit crazy or a little bit evil. The vacuum that would be left by removing religion would fill up with something at least as bad.