Originally posted by EnyalusI didn't really realize that, but it makes sense enough. I'll defer to your interpretation.
This is why I always say:
The IG makes one God (Supreme) beneath the LT.
IG is bad, bad ass.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, that was in Infinity War. (which was published AFTER Warlock & the Infinity Watch)The Gems worked fine on their own, but the IG was completely in-affective.
Why?
Cause the LT said so. (absolute control)
Then the IG in Infinity War was became affective.
Why?
Cause the LT said so. (absolute control)
Yall are still focusing on the prior arc,
let's stick to the arc that proceeds Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1,
which is the Infinity War arc.Starlin made it quite clear,
that the IG's function depends on the LT's allowance."His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"
This isn't control over the IG?
....................................................................................
Since it was Eternity who convinced the Tribunal to rule against the IG,
only Eternity now can make the Living Tribunal change his ruling.Eternity agrees, realizing the impending danger and faints:
A single phrase uttered by LT actually POWERS UP the Infinity Gauntlet.
The result in an instant:
....................................................................................
Sincerely friends, I don't see how yall don't see this.
Yet you won't find a single bio or writer comment that states the LT has absolute control over the IG. The Infinity War series doesn't redefine the LT's ruling over the gauntlet. All the LT has ever been shown to have power over is the gems before they are working together. He has never been shown to have the same kind of power over them afterwards.
The gems are far greater combined than they ever have been separate. Overcoming the IG after it has been formed is far different than stopping the gems from working together in the first place.
Originally posted by celestialdemonYet you won't find a single bio or writer comment
that states the LT has absolute control over the IG.
Bio:
On Panel:
First:
It doesn't exactly say the LT has absolute control,
but it does tells us LT is superior to the IG, and above GOD. (IG)
Second: (next arc)
Infinity War simply cemented this,
by showing us the LT with a phrase giving the IG significance.
Third: (next arc)
Rune/IG arc tells us the LT can defeat the IG easily.
Originally posted by celestialdemonThe Infinity War series doesn't redefine the LT's ruling over the gauntlet. All the LT has ever been shown to have power over is the gems before they are working together.
He has never been shown to have the same kind of power over them afterwards.
If the Gems in unison have absolutely no IG/power because the LT said so,
and then the IG becomes relevant because the LT said so,
it's quite clear that the LT has absolute control over the Gems/IG.
Originally posted by celestialdemonThe gems are far greater combined than they ever have been separate.
Originally posted by celestialdemonOvercoming the IG after it has been formed is far different
than stopping the gems from working together in the first place.
Originally posted by Mr MasterWarlock/IG unleashes his fury, obliterating the hierarchy: (LT is unfazed)
With a gesture, LT stops the IG attack, and re-creates the hierarchy:
In the next arc, LT makes the IG irrelevant ... then with a phrase powers up the IG.
And in the next arc after that,
we read the LT can defeat the IG easily.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Bio:On Panel:
First:
It doesn't exactly say the LT has absolute control,
but it does tells us LT is superior to the IG, and above GOD. (IG)Second: (next arc)
Infinity War simply cemented this,
by showing us the LT with a phrase giving the IG significance.Third: (next arc)
Rune/IG arc tells us the LT can defeat the IG easily.
I disagree.
If the Gems in unison have absolutely no IG/power because the LT said so,
and then the IG becomes relevant because the LT said so,
it's quite clear that the LT has absolute control over the Gems/IG.Cool, I know that.
I don't know what else to tell ya.
Handbooks, taking into consideration this specific issue,
tell us the LT's power is superior to the IG.In the next arc, LT makes the IG irrelevant ... then with a phrase powers up the IG.
And in the next arc after that,
we read the LT can defeat the IG easily.
Reading from all of that I would have to agree, but the thing is how would everything look after the battle or Adam/Thanos resisting the LT to say the least? Not to good it seems
Originally posted by Mr Master
Bio:On Panel:
First:
It doesn't exactly say the LT has absolute control,
That's correct, so we can't assume that he does.
Originally posted by Mr Master
but it does tells us LT is superior to the IG, and above GOD. (IG)
Being superior and having absolute control are two different things.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Second: (next arc)Infinity War simply cemented this,
by showing us the LT with a phrase giving the IG significance.
He's allowing the gems to work together. No argument there.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Third: (next arc)Rune/IG arc tells us the LT can defeat the IG easily.
You're talking about the same arc that allowed Rune to bypass the LT's supposed absolute control over the IG?
Originally posted by Mr Master
If the Gems in unison have absolutely no IG/power because the LT said so,
and then the IG becomes relevant because the LT said so,
it's quite clear that the LT has absolute control over the Gems/IG.
Again, stopping them from working together in the first place and stopping them after they have starting working together is completely different.
For example, there are plenty of people who can prevent the Ultimate Nullifier from activating. You will only find a very small handful who can stop it after it's been activated.
Also, if you recall, when the gems were brought together in the Infinity War, it was missing the real Reality Gem. So we don't even know for sure if the LT's ruling could have truly stopped the IG from working.
Originally posted by kevdudeReading from all of that I would have to agree
Originally posted by kevdudebut the thing is how would everything look after the battle
or Adam/Thanos resisting the LT to say the least?
Not to good it seems
If we take the next proceeding arc (Infinity War) into consideration,
the LT (with a thought) can make the IG in-affective or affective.
Imo, that's clearly absolute power over the IG,
regardless that the Marvel Handbooks tell us the LT is superior to the IG,
and regardless that Infinity Watch #2 tells us the LT is above Gods. (like the IG)
If this isn't concrete enough,
we have the next arc after these two,
which is what lead to the Ultraverse/Avengers arc,
there we learn that the LT can defeat the IG easily.
But, I personally already knew that from the depiction in Infinity War.
Originally posted by celestialdemonThat's correct, so we can't assume that he does.
Evidence begs to differ imo.
Originally posted by celestialdemonBeing superior and having absolute control are two different things.
Absolute control over the IG was demonstrated by the LT in Infinity War.
Originally posted by celestialdemonHe's allowing the gems to work together. No argument there.
Originally posted by celestialdemonYou're talking about the same arc
that allowed Rune to bypass the LT's supposed absolute control over the IG?
Rune is from another Multiverse,
apparently, the LT's judgement only catered to residents of the Prime Multiverse,
this is why the Soul Gem was dying to get out of the Prime Multiverse,
and return to Rune's.
Originally posted by celestialdemonAgain, stopping them from working together in the first place
and stopping them after they have starting working together is completely different.
Originally posted by celestialdemonFor example, there are plenty of people who can prevent the Ultimate Nullifier from activating.
You will only find a very small handful who can stop it after it's been activated.
Originally posted by celestialdemonAlso, if you recall, when the gems were brought together in the Infinity War, it was missing the real Reality Gem. So we don't even know for sure if the LT's ruling could have truly stopped the IG from working.
5 Gems is enough to give someone a taste of Godhood.
In fact, backed by the Power Gem,
it grants absolute power over Time/Space/Mind & Soul.
This is surely why,
Magus was able to completely control the nullification energies of the UN,
which as we know, can erase even Eternity/Infinity. (all that is, was or ever will be)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.Evidence begs to differ imo.
As you said, your opinion.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Absolute control over the IG was demonstrated by the LT in Infinity War.Which = to control over.
Control over the gems, not the complete IG.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Rune is from another Multiverse,
apparently, the LT's judgement only catered to residents of the Prime Multiverse,
this is why the Soul Gem was dying to get out of the Prime Multiverse,
and return to Rune's.
So the omnipotent LT either didn't have the power to make the ruling cross multiverses or the intelligence to forsee this happening.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I understand that,
that's not going to stop the LT from stomping the IG though.
In your opinion only.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, this doesn't relate good friend.
Stopping any weapon after it has been activated is different than stopping it from coming together.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It only took 4 Gems (power/mind/soul/space) to nearly collapse the Omniverse.
These same 4 Gems were continuously creating entire UniverseS back to back
and stacking them one top of one another.5 Gems is enough to give someone a taste of Godhood.
In fact, backed by the Power Gem,
it grants absolute power over Time/Space/Mind & Soul.This is surely why,
Magus was able to completely control the nullification energies of the UN,
which as we know, can erase even Eternity/Infinity. (all that is, was or ever will be)
All of which just shows you how powerful the incomplete set of gems are. These aren't equal to all 6 gems.
Originally posted by celestialdemonAs you said, your opinion.
Originally posted by celestialdemonControl over the gems, not the complete IG.
"His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"
Gems together = IG.
Originally posted by celestialdemonSo the omnipotent LT either didn't have the power to make the ruling cross multiverses
or the intelligence to forsee this happening.
As for the LT not being able to make his ruling across Multiverses,
I'm going to dismiss that one with confidence.
Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
all it takes is some pis or overlooking certain established canon acts to do so.
Happens all the time good friend, you know this.
Originally posted by celestialdemonIn your opinion only.
... but who's counting?
Originally posted by celestialdemonStopping any weapon after it has been activated
is different than stopping it from coming together.
Originally posted by celestialdemonAll of which just shows you how powerful the incomplete set of gems are.
These aren't equal to all 6 gems.
Mr Master, my dear friend...I remember being involved in a bitter feud with you about this a few years ago, in your early KMC days. While my respect for you has grown tremendously over the years, my position on this subject remains the same.
I don't feel like getting into a huge debate over it this time, but evidence would suggest that LT is not necessarily above an IG wielder, while the gems are used as one. Once they're separated, yes he could prevent them from linking up, but in W&IW #1 he did not display anything to prove that he was, with absolute certainty, more powerful than Warlock...aside from his verbal claim of superiority...to which Warlock replied, "another assertion yet to be proven".
Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, according to the facts. 🙂
Which is still your opinion.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Even if it's the IG that's affected?"His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"
Kept the GEMS from working together. The gems become the IG when they are working together. Two different things. Plus, the Reality Gem wasn't there.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Gems together = IG.
Gems working together in unison = IG. The gems in the Infinity War were neither working together nor were they all there.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, I can't define the specifics behind this twist,
I only know that since Rune was from another Multiverse,
he was able to unite the Gems.As for the LT not being able to make his ruling across Multiverses,
I'm going to dismiss that one with confidence.Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
all it takes is some pis or overlooking certain established canon acts to do so.Happens all the time good friend, you know this.
If this story is filled with PIS, then it's probably not good to bring it up in defense of the LT being about to beat the IG easily.
Originally posted by Mr Master
And Marvel's ...... but who's counting?
Still not reading anything about the LT having absolute control over the IG.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Correct, and the LT is above both scenarios according to Marvel.
Not disputing the LT being superior to the IG.
Originally posted by Lord SMr Master, my dear friend...I remember being involved in a bitter feud with you about this a few years ago, in your early KMC days. While my respect for you has grown tremendously over the years, my position on this subject remains the same.
I don't feel like getting into a huge debate over it this time,
but evidence would suggest that LT is not necessarily above an IG wielder,
while the gems are used as one.
But, I'm gonna have to disagree with the same amount of respect,
because I have to go by what Marvel says, on panel, and in their Handbooks.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Originally posted by Lord SOnce they're separated, yes he could prevent them from linking up,
but in W&IW #1 he did not display anything to prove that he was, with absolute certainty, more powerful than Warlock...aside from his verbal claim of superiority...to which Warlock replied, "another assertion yet to be proven".
With a gesture, LT stops the IG attack, and re-creates the hierarchy:
Seems like the LT had some weight behind that "verbal claim" good friend,
not to mention that the Marvel Handbook corroborates LT's verbal claim,
not to mention that Warlock (while omnipotent) also confirmed the "verbal claim."
Originally posted by celestialdemonWhich is still your opinion.
I can't say "hey look here, that's the LT stomping the IG"
because they've never actually battled,
other than the LT (with a gesture) nullifying Warlock/IG's furious attack,
which just so happened to obliterate the hierarchy, but couldn't even scratch the LT.
Originally posted by celestialdemonKept the GEMS from working together. The gems become the IG when they are working together. Two different things. Plus, the Reality Gem wasn't there.
I mean come on C, this directly affects the IG.
Reality Gem wasn't there,
but it was there when the LT made his ruling which was prior to Infinity War.
Originally posted by celestialdemonGems working together in unison = IG.
The gems in the Infinity War were neither working together nor were they all there.
Again, all the Gems were there when it was known
the LT ruled to separate them permanently in Warlock & the Infinity Watch #2.
Originally posted by celestialdemonIf this story is filled with PIS,
then it's probably not good to bring it up
in defense of the LT being about to beat the IG easily.
That's some PIS, but not the kind that calls for dismissal of the facts withIN the arc.
Originally posted by celestialdemonStill not reading anything about the LT having absolute control over the IG.
But I'll leave you with what the LT said about the Infinity Gauntlet.
LT is frank and clear ... it's Eternity's status that's threatened by the IG, NOT the LT:
In fact, the LT could care less about who's dominating reality, with or without the IG:
You know why the LT could care less who's the embodiment of Reality?
(so long as the balance remains)
Cause all Reality is just putty in the LT's hands:
"Alpha & Omega" ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.
Respect the LT yall. swank
Originally posted by celestialdemonNot disputing the LT being superior to the IG.
Originally posted by Mr Master
According to the surrounding facts.I can't say "hey look here, that's the LT stomping the IG"
because they've never actually battled,
other than the LT (with a gesture) nullifying Warlock/IG's furious attack,
which just so happened to obliterate the hierarchy, but couldn't even scratch the LT.
Yet the LT admitted that the battle between him and Warlock would destroy reality. LT's words, not mine. That doesn't classify as a stomp.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, kept the Gems from working together which becomes the IG.I mean come on C, this directly affects the IG.
As stated, it prevents the GEMS from working in unison. It says nothing about shutting down the IG after the gems have already started working together.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Reality Gem wasn't there,
but it was there when the LT made his ruling which was prior to Infinity War.
The same ruling where the LT said the battle between the two would destroy reality. Again, doesn't sound like a stomp.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Gems weren't working together because the LT said so.
Already established.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, all the Gems were there when it was known
the LT ruled to separate them permanently in Warlock & the Infinity Watch #2.
Yet, the LT's ruling didn't take effect until AFTER Warlock separated the gems.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said it was full of PIS,
I said, Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
in order to do so, they had to find a way to make LT's ruling null,
they did this by bringing in Rune who's an inhabitant of another Multiverse.That's some PIS, but not the kind that calls for dismissal of the facts withIN the arc.
So even though the entire arc was based on Rune getting the runes and forming the IG (PIS), you still get to pick and choose what wasn't PIS? ❌
Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, if making the IG in-affective or affective with but a thought is not control, as you wish.
Making the gems not working in unison. He NEVER made the complete IG ineffective.
Originally posted by Mr Master
But I'll leave you with what the LT said about the Infinity Gauntlet.LT is frank and clear ... it's Eternity's status that's threatened by the IG, NOT the LT:
In fact, the LT could care less about who's dominating reality, with or without the IG:
You know why the LT could care less, who's the embodiment of Reality?
Cause all Reality is just putty in the LT's hands:
"Alpha & Omega" ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.
Respect the LT yall. swank
All this is pointless. No one has EVER assumed the IG threatens the LT's status, because no one can do what the LT does.
Originally posted by celestialdemonYet the LT admitted that the battle between him and Warlock
would destroy reality. LT's words, not mine. That doesn't classify as a stomp.
One shot is all it takes to take out reality.
Originally posted by celestialdemonAs stated, it prevents the GEMS from working in unison. It says nothing about shutting down the IG after the gems have already started working together.
Remember friend,
any notion suggesting that the LT would have to move more than a finger to stop the IG,
died after Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1.
Although,
it was also withIN that ver same arc that the LT nullified the IG attack with a thought.
You seem to be ignoring that.
Originally posted by celestialdemonThe same ruling where the LT said the battle between the two would destroy reality.
Again, doesn't sound like a stomp.
All it takes is one move to destroy reality, so, what difference does it make?
Did the LT allude to any amount of time it would take?
No.
The LT could've just as easily been speaking about himself.
In other words,
if the LT has to attack Warlock and in doing so destroys the surrounding reality,
this would be labeled a "confrontation" ... even it only takes the LT one blast to stomp.
Originally posted by celestialdemonYet, the LT's ruling didn't take effect until AFTER Warlock separated the gems.
Originally posted by celestialdemonSo even though the entire arc was based on Rune getting the runes
and forming the IG (PIS),
you still get to pick and choose what wasn't PIS?
It's 100% canon, so, there's really not much more to build on that.
I'm not in the mood to crop, so here's the Marvel.com identical bio:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems
(second to last paragraph)
Originally posted by celestialdemonMaking the gems not working in unison.
He NEVER made the complete IG ineffective.
Originally posted by celestialdemonAll this is pointless. No one has EVER assumed the IG threatens the LT's status, because no one can do what the LT does.
The IG gives control over what Eternity is, which is, all of Space-Time. (basically God)
(sometimes Eternity represents both himself, and Infinity)
"Eternity IS A GOD! He is ...
the complete embodiment of everyone and everything ...
... on All levels of Creation"
.........................................................................................
All of Space-Time's beginning and end,
twirls like a child's toy in the LT's hand as stated above,
he literally controls its destiny.
Without the LT, the IG is insignificant, as proven on panel.
And again, please,
stop ONLY focusing on the ambiguity of Warlock & the infinity Watch #1.
The subsequent arcs (W & IW later issues/Infinity War/Ultraverse-Avengers)
clear things up for us.
Imo, from what I've seen/read,
the LT has absolute power over the IG,
but I will submit, his 3 faces must agree.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not surprised the Dimension of Manifestations (that reality) would be destroyed,
we're talking about the LT here, who holds the Alpha & Omega in one hand.One shot is all it takes to take out reality.
Which may or may not have been enough to defeat Warlock with the IG.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Neither did it say the LT couldn't.
Then why didn't he?
Originally posted by Mr Master
Remember friend,
any notion suggesting that the LT would have to move more than a finger to stop the IG,
died after Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1.
Yet it was after the finger snap that the LT himself said forcibly removing the IG from Warlock would destroy reality.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Although,
it was also withIN that ver same arc that the LT nullified the IG attack with a thought.You seem to be ignoring that.
I haven't ignored it. The LT nullified an outburst from Warlock. An attack like that and an actual one on one battle are very different.
Originally posted by Mr Master
And?All it takes is one move to destroy reality, so, what difference does it make?
Did the LT allude to any amount of time it would take?
No.
The LT could've just as easily been speaking about himself.
In other words,
if the LT has to attack Warlock and in doing so destroys the surrounding reality,
this would be labeled a "confrontation" ... even it only takes the LT one blast to stomp.
And we don't know for sure if that one blast would have stopped Warlock. Like you said, the LT could have easily been speaking about himself, but the mere fact that we don't know for sure means him one-shotting the IG is not fact, merely opinion.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG.
LT gave him a chance to give up his power.
It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away.
In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.
I'm not saying he couldn't have taken the IG away from Warlock. I'm just saying it wouldn't have been as easy as you think.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I think you should read the arc, before judging it.It's 100% canon, so, there's really not much more to build on that.
I'm not in the mood to crop, so here's the Marvel.com identical bio:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems
(second to last paragraph)
So it's 100% canon? So what does that say about all 6 gems working despite the LT's ruling?
Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, he just made IG/Warlock's attack ... in-affective ... with a simple gesture no less.
An outburst does not equal a battle. An outburst from the IG was enough to blow the abstracts back. A battle easily defeat all of them at the same time.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not pointless, it fits.The IG gives control over what Eternity is, which is, all of Space-Time. (basically God)
(sometimes Eternity represents both himself, and Infinity)"Eternity IS A GOD! He is ...
the complete embodiment of everyone and everything ...
... on All levels of Creation".........................................................................................
All of Space-Time's beginning and end,
twirls like a child's toy in the LT's hand as stated above,
he literally controls its destiny.Without the LT, the IG is insignificant, as proven on panel.
And again, please,
stop ONLY focusing on the ambiguity of Warlock & the infinity Watch #1.The subsequent arcs (W & IW later issues/Infinity War/Ultraverse-Avengers)
clear things up for us.Imo, from what I've seen/read,
the LT has absolute power over the IG,
but I will submit, his 3 faces must agree.
Infinity War cleared up nothing, since not all 6 gems were used in unison. When they were all used in unison (Ulraverse-Avengers), the IG worked fine.
In the Illuminati arc, the Watcher refused to take the IG from Reed stating that no being should possess it's full power. He also said he was glad Reed didn't succumb to it's power. What power if it's not supposed to work in the first place?
Even the LT admitted he didn't know everything. As you well know, in WATIW #11, the LT admitted to Eternity that he didn't know if any of the Infinity Watch could be trusted with the gems. So there are obviously some things that are outside of his influence.
Originally posted by unknowableMr M do you eat and sleep this stuff?Hope I'm not offending you but you should consider working for marvel,honestly you could be an editor of sorts that cleans up misleading information like we sometimes see in bios lets say.Its a thought.
Toodle loo
