The the LT one shot the IG?

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which may or may not have been enough to defeat Warlock with the IG.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Then why didn't he?

We already saw what happens when the Warlock/IG attacked the LT ...

,, nothing, not only nothing, but the LT nullified the attack effortlessly with a gesture.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet it was after the finger snap
that the LT himself said forcibly removing the IG from Warlock would destroy reality.

Imo, it could be that shunting the IG attack is a joke to the LT,
but perhaps removing the IG from the wielder is a bit more difficult.

Either way,
the fact remains that the Marvel Handbooks & Marvel.com clearly state,
the LT's power surpasses that of the Gems
based on the LT having the power
to make the IG in-affective, or affective. (working in unison or not)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal

Originally posted by celestialdemon

I haven't ignored it. The LT nullified an outburst from Warlock.

An attack like that and an actual one on one battle are very different.

Warlock obliterated the hierarchy, only the LT was unfazed.

And I agree, it wouldn't be the same in a battle,
in a battle,
the LT would be ready to fight from the start,
unlike that scenario where the LT was attacked by Warlock
without the LT defending himself.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

And we don't know for sure if that one blast would have stopped Warlock. Like you said, the LT could have easily been speaking about himself, but the mere fact that we don't know for sure means him one-shotting the IG is not fact, merely opinion.

If the LT was able to withstand unharmed, and shunt the IG attack with a gesture,
I'm sure the LT could stomp the IG one shot style.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

I'm not saying he couldn't have taken the IG away from Warlock.
I'm just saying it wouldn't have been as easy as you think.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

So it's 100% canon?

So what does that say about all 6 gems working despite the LT's ruling?

So Marvel had a creature from another Multiverse come in and combine the Gems.

Imo, this is not cool,
but it is an effort on Marvel's part to at-least try & make sense of it.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

An outburst does not equal a battle.
An outburst from the IG was enough to blow the abstracts back.
A battle easily defeat all of them at the same time.

This "outburst" line you've tagged on what Warlock did is not accurate.

Warlock didn't just blow back the hierarchy, he demolished them:

Eternity was blown to pieces,
which gives us an indication that the rest met the same fate,
since Eternity > the rest of them.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Infinity War cleared up nothing, since not all 6 gems were used in unison. When they were all used in unison (Ulraverse-Avengers), the IG worked fine.

As for (Ultraverse-Avengers)

I explained what took place above.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

In the Illuminati arc, the Watcher refused to take the IG from Reed stating that no being should possess it's full power. He also said he was glad Reed didn't succumb to it's power.

What power if it's not supposed to work in the first place?

Perhaps the LT lifted his restriction off panel,
or perhaps DeFalco allowed the writers to ignore that detail in order to publish another IG arc.

Only cosmic aficionados would even know about that detail,
you think DeFalco is gonna stop the flow of dow coming into Marvel as sales
cause of an intricacy that will not be noticed by the majority? Nah good friend.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Even the LT admitted he didn't know everything.
As you well know, in WATIW #11,
the LT admitted to Eternity that he didn't know
if any of the Infinity Watch could be trusted with the gems.

So there are obviously some things that are outside of his influence.

LT is ... 1997

"Serene in his Omnipotence"

"None possess his Omniscient perspective"

and ... "Alpha & Omega" (the beginning & end) ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.

Wow... I never knew this would go on for 60 posts...

The lt is above the gauntlet...the end,stop dragging this on its been proven time and time again.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
The lt is above the gauntlet...the end,stop dragging this on its been proven time and time again.

Originally posted by Mr Master

,, nothing, not only nothing, but the LT nullified the attack effortlessly with a gesture.

The reality you're talking about is the Dimension of Manifestations,
and yes, I understand the LT said that afterwards.

Imo, it could be that shunting the IG attack is a joke to the LT,
but perhaps removing the IG from the wielder is a bit more difficult.

Which is the point I've been arguing. The LT removing the IG from the wielder would be more difficult than a simple snap of his fingers. The LT himself admitted as much.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Either way,
the fact remains that the Marvel Handbooks & Marvel.com clearly state,
the LT's power surpasses that of the Gems
based on the LT having the power
to make the IG in-affective, or affective. (working in unison or not)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal

Again, not arguing the LT's superiority to the IG only how easy it would be for the LT to defeat the IG.

Tyrant is superior to Thanos. That doesn't mean he could take him down with little effort.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"an outburst?"

Warlock obliterated the hierarchy, only the LT was unfazed.

And I agree, it wouldn't be the same in a battle,
in a battle,
the LT would be ready to fight from the start,
unlike that scenario where the LT was attacked by Warlock
without the LT defending himself.

All he did was blow them back. None of them look seriously hurt. We've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics when the wielder really tried to defeat them.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"opinion?" ... of course, a story has never been published where they battle.
I did say earlier on that my opinion is based on the surrounding facts.

If the LT was able to withstand unharmed, and shunt the IG attack with a gesture,
I'm sure the LT could stomp the IG one shot style.

The attack wasn't focused on the LT. Like I said, we've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics, and it's far more than what Warlock displayed during this attack. It would take a lot more effort than what he showed here for the LT for him to defeat the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Apparently, for the sake of comic book sales, (another IG arc)
the restriction was only subjected to the prime Multiverse,
which makes sense since that's the LT's primary concern in Marvel.

So Marvel had a creature from another Multiverse come in and combine the Gems.

Imo, this is not cool,
but it is an effort on Marvel's part to at-least try & make sense of it.

Regardless of the reason, it's still canon that the IG worked with Rune. And nowhere is it stated even in that series that the LT's ruling only applied to the prime multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm gonna have to disagree here.

This "outburst" line you've tagged on what Warlock did is not accurate.

Warlock didn't just blow back the hierarchy, he demolished them:

Eternity was blown to pieces,
which gives us an indication that the rest met the same fate,
since Eternity > the rest of them.

Yet the rest of the hierarchy still looks intact. Eternity is also the only one out of all of them that took a direct shot from Warlock immediately before this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Infinity War, depicted the LT as the one that makes the IG significant.
At the end of Infinity War,
Eternity pops up and tells Thanos that the restriction has been placed on the IG again,
I can't see the writers making Eternity do that, unless the LT's ruling is significant.

The LT powered up 5 gems not 6. We've seen all 6 gems work just fine even without the LT's ruling being rescinded.

Eternity also said something like "let it be known the power the LT represents will never allow the gems to work together again." Are we to believe Eternity can make it so that not even the LT can make them work again?

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for (Ultraverse-Avengers)

I explained what took place above.

Unfortunately, the IG being allowed to work simply for sales purposes isn't a good enough argument in a debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Sometimes things take place off panel, or are simply retconned away.

Perhaps the LT lifted his restriction off panel,
or perhaps DeFalco allowed the writers to ignore that detail in order to publish another IG arc.

All of which is irrelevant in a debate. We go by what's on panel. You've debated by that mantra the entire time I've known you. On panel, the LT has never rescinded his ban on the IG since the Infinity War, and they still have worked. The ban was even specifically mentioned by the Illuminati. The Watcher, of all people, should be well aware of it being in place. Yet, he acted like it didn't matter, and the power of the IG would corrupt Reed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only cosmic aficionados would even know about that detail,
you think DeFalco is gonna stop the flow of dow coming into Marvel as sales
cause of an intricacy that will not be noticed by the majority? Nah good friend.

All of which has no bearing in a debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That was written back in 92 ...

LT is ... 1997

"Serene in his Omnipotence"

"None possess his Omniscient perspective"

and ... "Alpha & Omega" (the beginning & end) ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.

Yet an even more recent version of the LT needed She-Hulk's advice on whether to replace 616 with the Ultimate universe? 😕

Originally posted by quanchi112
No one is disagreeing with that to my knowledge. I dont think the Lt is taking this in one blow. Thats the point.

Exactly.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which is the point I've been arguing. The LT removing the IG from the wielder would be more difficult than a simple snap of his fingers. The LT himself admitted as much.

LT said it would destroy the Dimension of Manifestations,
I know the LT can destroy that reality with a thought,
so, it could still be that easy.

A snap of the LT's fingers can mean incredible power is being used.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Again, not arguing the LT's superiority to the IG
only how easy it would be for the LT to defeat the IG.

Tyrant is superior to Thanos. That doesn't mean he could take him down with little effort.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

All he did was blow them back. None of them look seriously hurt.

We've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics when the wielder really tried to defeat them.

You're kidding right?

Originally posted by celestialdemon

The attack wasn't focused on the LT.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Like I said, we've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics,
and it's far more than what Warlock displayed during this attack.

Before the artist can add more details, the LT nullified the attack.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

It would take a lot more effort than what he showed here for the LT for him to defeat the IG.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Regardless of the reason, it's still canon that the IG worked with Rune. And nowhere is it stated even in that series that the LT's ruling only applied to the prime multiverse.

The Soul gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune since the dawn of time,
it knew one day the LT would rule against it's significance withIN the prime Multiverse,
like it knew one day a creature from another Multiverse would arrive and skip that rule.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet the rest of the hierarchy still looks intact.
Eternity is also the only one out of all of them that took a direct shot from Warlock
immediately before this.

Eternity getting blasted before means little,
as it was clear at that point, Warlock wasn't out to obliterate him,
afterwards though, Warlock became enraged and was out to destroy them all.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Eternity also said something like "let it be known the power the LT represents will never allow the gems to work together again."

Are we to believe Eternity can make it so
that not even the LT can make them work again?

But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Unfortunately,
the IG being allowed to work simply for sales purposes isn't a good enough argument in a debate.[/B]

Originally posted by celestialdemon

All of which is irrelevant in a debate. We go by what's on panel. You've debated by that mantra the entire time I've known you. On panel, the LT has never rescinded his ban on the IG since the Infinity War, and they still have worked. The ban was even specifically mentioned by the Illuminati. The Watcher, of all people, should be well aware of it being in place. Yet, he acted like it didn't matter, and the power of the IG would corrupt Reed.[/B]

In fact, they made it seem as though that never happened:

Thanx for reminding me of this CD,
now I'm convinced that the LT's ruling was retcooned away off-panel. 🙂

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet an even more recent version of the LT needed She-Hulk's advice
on whether to replace 616 with the Ultimate universe?

Anyway, I guess you didn't know this,
but during She-Hulk's time as an appointed cosmic judge,
she was endowed with cosmic senses and authority, she was herself a God.

She didn't give the LT advice, she spoke up for Eternity,
convincing the LT not to erase/replace Eternity.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, the ban was mentioned in Illuminati,
and no one had any idea who made that ban.

In fact, they made it seem as though that never happened:

Thanx for reminding me of this CD,
now I'm convinced that the LT's ruling was retcooned away off-panel. 🙂

anyhow, if the illuminati weren't around when LT judged against the gems, how could/would they know for sure what really happened with them?

Originally posted by Mr Master
LT never admitted it would take more than snapping his fingers.

LT said it would destroy the Dimension of Manifestations,
I know the LT can destroy that reality with a thought,
so, it could still be that easy.

A snap of the LT's fingers can mean incredible power is being used.

Correct, but none of that means he could defeat the IG just as easily.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No proof either way.

Agreed, which is why stating with absolute certainty that one will happen over the other is wrong.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"none of them look seriously hurt?"

You're kidding right?

A Celestial was still standing there also.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was an omni-directional blast, everyone got it evenly.

I also saw what Warlock did, while filled with fury, he unleashed the IG power,
Eternity was blown to pieces,
and the rest of the hierarchy was getting blown like motes in a storm.

Before the artist can add more details, the LT nullified the attack.

Which proves that the LT is more powerful and durable than the abstracts. But we all already knew that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

That's fine. Like you said earlier, there's no proof either way.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, now you're wrong.

The Soul gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune since the dawn of time,
it knew one day the LT would rule against it's significance withIN the prime Multiverse,
like it knew one day a creature from another Multiverse would arrive and skip that rule.

So the LT either couldn't see the future where Rune took the IG to another multiverse or he did but allowed Rune to defy his almighty ruling of the gems never being able to used again. Either situation doesn't fit very well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The rest of the hierarchy was getting blown apart,
the artist didn't have another page to show us the end result,
because the LT nullified the attack.

Eternity getting blasted before means little,
as it was clear at that point, Warlock wasn't out to obliterate him,
afterwards though, Warlock became enraged and was out to destroy them all.

So how is it possible that Eternity, whom is superior to the rest sans the LT, was blown to bits as you say, but the others are intact?

Originally posted by Mr Master
If you believe Eternity is the power that the LT represents, then yea.

But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing.

I don't believe that. Why would Eternity be the power the LT represents? That would make Eternity's statement senseless since he would be talking about himself.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just stating the sensible logic friend.

But still invalid in a debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, the ban was mentioned in Illuminati,
and no one had any idea who made that ban.

In fact, they made it seem as though that never happened:

Thanx for reminding me of this CD,
now I'm convinced that the LT's ruling was retcooned away off-panel. 🙂

No problem. As soon as you have actual proof of that, then I'll believe it.

[QUOTE=11224973]Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]😆 ... I'm not lol at you, but at the thought.

Anyway, I guess you didn't know this,
but during She-Hulk's time as an appointed cosmic judge,
she was endowed with cosmic senses and authority, she was herself a God.

She didn't give the LT advice, she spoke up for Eternity,
convincing the LT not to erase/replace Eternity.

And just how would the cosmic judge of everything be convinced not to do something? That implies doubt about what he was planning on doing in the first place. How can anyone who is omniscient doubt anything they are planning on doing?

Originally posted by Galan007

hmm, were any members of the illuminati actually present
when LT made his ruling on the gems?

Dr Strange was an integral part of Galactus' plans.

Black Bolt wasn't there though, and I wonder where Reed was,
since Torch/Thing/and Sue were there.

Originally posted by Galan007

anyhow, if the illuminati weren't around when LT judged against the gems,
how could/would they know for sure what really happened with them?

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Correct, but none of that means he could defeat the IG just as easily.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Agreed, which is why stating with absolute certainty
that one will happen over the other is wrong.

I haven't made absolute statements.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

A Celestial was still standing there also.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

That's fine. Like you said earlier, there's no proof either way.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

So the LT either couldn't see the future where Rune took the IG to another multiverse or he did but allowed Rune to defy his almighty ruling of the gems never being able to used again. Either situation doesn't fit very well.

Simple, the LT's ruling was subject only to the inhabitants of the prime Multiverse,
a being from another Multiverse comes in, and the rules don't apply.

LT couldn't even confront Rune himself because of this,
so he sent Surfer who curbstomped Rune.

If the LT's 3 faces don't agree, there's nothing the LT can do directly.

* This part of the debate can be discussed no further,
I explained what happened according to the story, if it's senseless,
I can't do more for ya good friend, you'll have to enquire with Marvel via email.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

So how is it possible that Eternity,
whom is superior to the rest sans the LT,
was blown to bits as you say, but the others are intact?

I can't explain why the artist decided to portray it that way,
I can only explain what took place.

Perhaps the artist didn't want them all to look like confetti.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

I don't believe that. Why would Eternity be the power the LT represents? That would make Eternity's statement senseless since he would be talking about himself.

I used a bit of sarcasm, but I then added:

"But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing."

Originally posted by celestialdemon

But still invalid in a debate.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

No problem. As soon as you have actual proof of that, then I'll believe it.

The writer of this arc (Illuminati) decided to make the LT's ruling inconsequential.

That's the proof in the scan.

Which is why Reed asked, "Says who?"

Namor adds, "Exactly"

And the ruling of the Gems is never even alluded to again in the rest of the arc.

TOAA can do anything.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

And just how would the cosmic judge of everything be convinced not to do something?
That implies doubt about what he was planning on doing in the first place.

How can anyone who is omniscient doubt anything they are planning on doing?

Let's not forget CD, this is comics. 🙂

You'll run into funny stuff every once in awhile.

If you want adhered perfection to continuity/backstories/and characters,
you're not going to find it in either Marvel or DC at all times without a slip,
the LT and other uber entities may represent omnipotence/omniscience or whathaveyou,
but the person giving these entities these attributes are limited finite minded human beings.

Originally posted by Mr Master

My certainty is an opinion based on facts.

I haven't made absolute statements.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It fits just fine with me.

Simple, the LT's ruling was subject only to the inhabitants of the prime Multiverse,
a being from another Multiverse comes in, and the rules don't apply.

LT couldn't even confront Rune himself because of this,
so he sent Surfer who curbstomped Rune.

If the LT's 3 faces don't agree, there's nothing the LT can do directly.

Why shouldn't the rules apply? The LT's decree had nothing to do with specific beings not being able to use the IG. It had to do with the IG itself. If the LT's ruling was absolute, it shouldn't work no matter where it is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
* This part of the debate can be discussed no further,
I explained what happened according to the story, if it's senseless,
I can't do more for ya good friend, you'll have to enquire with Marvel via email.

Fair enough. We've gotten the info we needed from it anyway.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not standing as if un-affected,
the artist was obviously trying to include all the characters in the page.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The others were getting blown apart too,
if you look with meticulous eyes, you'll notice they're dissolving with the blast,
the artist left most of some of them, while the there are others that are unrecognizable.

I can't explain why the artist decided to portray it that way,
I can only explain what took place.

Perhaps the artist didn't want them all to look like confetti.

We'll let these go since this part of the debate is drifting off-topic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Precisely.

I used a bit of sarcasm, but I then added:

"But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing."

Obviously the LT was wrong since the IG has worked since his ruling.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not imo.

TOAA = the writer/artist (approved by DeFalco -Editor-in-Chief)

The writer of this arc (Illuminati) decided to make the LT's ruling inconsequential.

That's the proof in the scan.

Which is why Reed asked, "Says who?"

Namor adds, "Exactly"

And the ruling of the Gems is never even alluded to again in the rest of the arc.

TOAA can do anything.

This is pure speculation, and you know it. It's not stated on panel or in bios that the LT's ruling was rescinded. Until there is actually proof, using this in a debate will get you nowhere.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Now you're getting way too technical.

Let's not forget CD, this is comics. 🙂

You'll run into funny stuff every once in awhile.

If you want adhered perfection to continuity/backstories/and characters,
you're not going to find it in either Marvel or DC at all times without a slip,
the LT and other uber entities may represent omnipotence/omniscience or whathaveyou,
but the person giving these entities these attributes are limited finite minded human beings.

I agree. Obviously there's no way for the writers to know what the future will bring. However, I'm not talking about the future. I'm talking about having a story where the LT is deciding to replace one universe with another and is talked out of it. If he can be talked out of it for whatever reason, then how can he claim to be omniscient?

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Why shouldn't the rules apply?

The LT's decree had nothing to do with specific beings not being able to use the IG.
It had to do with the IG itself.
If the LT's ruling was absolute, it shouldn't work no matter where it is.

It was actually a direct order from TOAA that ordered the last ban on the Gems:

(end of Infinity War)

TOAA in Infinity War was Jim Starlin

TOAA during the Rune arc was Chris Ulm

TOAA during the Illuminati arc was Michael Bendis

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Obviously the LT was wrong since the IG has worked since his ruling.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

This is pure speculation, and you know it. It's not stated on panel or in bios that the LT's ruling was rescinded. Until there is actually proof, using this in a debate will get you nowhere.

Obviously the ruling was either rescinded off panel,
or simply made inconsequential by TOAA of the next two arcs.

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the LT's ruling is being kept in continuity,
and yet is being ignored/overlooked by other writers.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

I agree. Obviously there's no way for the writers to know
what the future will bring.

However, I'm not talking about the future.

I'm talking about having a story
where the LT is deciding to replace one universe with another
and is talked out of it.
If he can be talked out of it for whatever reason,
then how can he claim to be omniscient?

LT was judging the prime Multiverse,
and then he allowed She-Hulk to make a case for the prime Multiverse.

The LT is not a cosmic tyrant,
the LT is a cosmic judge,
and as such many times he hears a case before deciding on it.

LT probably knew the decision he would make,
but it's a comic book story friend,
and in order to give it substance that remotely relates to us,
there has to be room for depth in the writing.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Warlock didn't just blow back the hierarchy, he demolished them:

anyway, the LT remade or fully healed all those characters present with a snap, and warlock was apparently unaware the LT could perform those feats. looks to me like an ig wielder is blind to the power of anything higher then they are.... predicting the LT's attacks would most likely also be unfathomable.

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA can do anything.

It was actually a direct order from TOAA that ordered the last ban on the Gems:

(end of Infinity War)

TOAA in Infinity War was Jim Starlin

TOAA during the Rune arc was Chris Ulm

TOAA during the Illuminati arc was Michael Bendis

The LT wasn't wrong,
it's just that another writer/artist (TOAA) decided to twist the original restriction.

Proof is in the events that have taken place after the ruling.

Obviously the ruling was either rescinded off panel,
or simply made inconsequential by TOAA of the next two arcs.

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the LT's ruling is being kept in continuity,
and yet is being ignored/overlooked by other writers.

But the ban obviously was still kept in play. As in the Rune arc, the LT himself tells SS that someone is violating his ban on the IG. Whether it was from another multiverse or not does not matter since the ruling was on the IG itself, not on the multiverse. Also, in the Illuminati, the ban was mentioned. Like you said earlier about the end of the Infinity War, the writers wouldn't have mentioned it unless it was significant. Something that's significant doesn't get retconned off panel.

Stating that something was retconned off panel doesn't work, because that opens up way too much stuff to deal with. I could just as easily say that TOAA/writer retconned the IG off panel to in fact be superior to the LT. That's the reason why his ban can be superceded. After all, TOAA/writer has no problem making a "weapon" more powerful than the LT (HOTI).

If we attributed everything to "it happened because TOAA/writer wanted it to be that way", that would mean every incident of PIS would be valid in an argument, because it was the will of TOAA/writer. So Spiderman vs Firelord, Black Panther's cosmic armbar on the Surfer, Storm "shattering" Stardust, etc. can all be used in a debate since TOAA/writer allowed it to happen.

To me, that's not a valid way to debate, and it that's what this debate has come down to, then I will respectfully withdraw.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is CD,
LT didn't make a decision that lead to She-Hulk changing his mind.

LT was judging the prime Multiverse,
and then he allowed She-Hulk to make a case for the prime Multiverse.

The LT is not a cosmic tyrant,
the LT is a cosmic judge,
and as such many times he hears a case before deciding on it.

LT probably knew the decision he would make,
but it's a comic book story friend,
and in order to give it substance that remotely relates to us,
there has to be room for depth in the writing.

I know he's not a cosmic tyrant. However, if he knows all, then having someone make a case for anything is pointless because he already knows what the best outcome is regardless of what anyone says. So we can say that She Hulk had no bearing on the LT's outcome and he was just there to amuse her or himself.

The answer is No!

Originally posted by celestialdemon

But the ban obviously was still kept in play. As in the Rune arc, the LT himself tells SS that someone is violating his ban on the IG. Whether it was from another multiverse or not does not matter since the ruling was on the IG itself, not on the multiverse.

Besides that that's the only possible explanation,
it was stated on panel by the Soul gem it was waiting for Rune.

This may not make sense to whoever, but ... that's the story.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Also, in the Illuminati, the ban was mentioned. Like you said earlier about the end of the Infinity War, the writers wouldn't have mentioned it unless it was significant. Something that's significant doesn't get retconned off panel.

While in Illuminati (2007)
the ban is mentioned, and the characters act like they could care less about it.

Reed: "and I say to him, says who?"

Namor: "Exactly"

Then the ban is forgotten and never even alluded to again.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Stating that something was retconned off panel doesn't work, because that opens up way too much stuff to deal with. I could just as easily say that TOAA/writer retconned the IG off panel to in fact be superior to the LT. That's the reason why his ban can be superceded. After all, TOAA/writer has no problem making a "weapon" more powerful than the LT (HOTI).

But considering your theory:

I must disagree, because SS told the LT I know you can defeat this creature,
and the LT acknowledged that as fact,
and Silver Surfer also curbstomped Rune/IG afterwards,
so the theory doesn't fit, cause it leads to, Silver Surfer > LT.

The explanation given in the story not only makes more sense,
but is the canon story as well.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

If we attributed everything to "it happened because TOAA/writer wanted it to be that way", that would mean every incident of PIS would be valid in an argument, because it was the will of TOAA/writer. So Spiderman vs Firelord, Black Panther's cosmic armbar on the Surfer, Storm "shattering" Stardust, etc. can all be used in a debate since TOAA/writer allowed it to happen.

To me, that's not a valid way to debate,
and it that's what this debate has come down to,
then I will respectfully withdraw.

For the record though:

In the Rune arc, there was a clear reasoning behind the IG re-assembling,
I'm with ya, I don't really like it, it borders on pis, but that's the story.

In the Illuminati arc, imo, it's evident the ban was either retconned,
or made inconsequential for the sake of making another story involving the IG.

Meh, perhaps we'll get some quality info in the next IG arc,
although it's a 'What If' .. so maybe not.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

I know he's not a cosmic tyrant. However, if he knows all, then having someone make a case for anything is pointless because he already knows what the best outcome is regardless of what anyone says. So we can say that She Hulk had no bearing on the LT's outcome and he was just there to amuse her or himself.

And yes, I'm sure the LT knew the outcome,
just like he knew Warlock would obey his ruling.

But if the LT was written as the omniscient Cosmic God he is all the time,
that would be some truly boring crap to read,
this is why all Cosmic uber related stories have some form of pis,
otherwise, the story would end in three pages:

Like:

Page 1. Uber X arrives, and already knows everything.
Page 2. So uber X waves his hand.
Page 3. Uber X does his job and leaves.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Already told you the Soul Gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune,
because it knew the ban on the IG would not work on a being from another Multiverse.

Besides that that's the only possible explanation,
it was stated on panel by the Soul gem it was waiting for Rune.

This may not make sense to whoever, but ... that's the story.

It's speculation. The Soul Gem never said why it was waiting for Rune since the beginning. If you recall, once all the gems were brought together, they had no problem activating. That's how the LT felt it's power in the first place. The only reason it was stated why the gem wanted Rune to go back to the Ultraverse was so Rune could take revenge on his enemies.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The difference is, at the end of Infinity War (1992)
Eternity literally referenced TOAA as the one that placed the second restriction.

While in Illuminati (2007)
the ban is mentioned, and the characters act like they could care less about it.

Reed: "and I say to him, says who?"

Namor: "Exactly"

Then the ban is forgotten and never even alluded to again.

Which means what? The last time Reed dealt with the IG in the Infinity War, the ban was removed. Reed wasn't present when Eternity let the Watch know the ban went into effect again.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But .. it was TOAA who placed the restriction on the Gems,
so, it's actually TOAA's ruling being superceded,
and well ... that's impossible unless it's another OAA from another story doing it.

But considering your theory:

I must disagree, because SS told the LT I know you can defeat this creature,
and the LT acknowledged that as fact,
and Silver Surfer also curbstomped Rune/IG afterwards,
so the theory doesn't fit, cause it leads to, Silver Surfer > LT.

The explanation given in the story not only makes more sense,
but is the canon story as well..

The problem is SS didn't curbstomp Rune/IG. SS shot Rune's hand off, and it fell into the Ultraverse. It also needs to be noted that this wasn't the typical "person possesses the IG" incident. The Soul Gem and Rune were actually struggling for control of Rune's body. Not necessarily the best way to utilize the gems.

As for the restriction, if TOAA was to remove it, then he would have gone through the LT to do it, since that's how the restriction was implimented and removed the first time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You do what you gotta do good friend.

For the record though:

In the Rune arc, there was a clear reasoning behind the IG re-assembling,
I'm with ya, I don't really like it, it borders on pis, but that's the story.

In the Illuminati arc, imo, it's evident the ban was either retconned,
or made inconsequential for the sake of making another story involving the IG.

Meh, perhaps we'll get some quality info in the next IG arc,
although it's a 'What If' .. so maybe not.

Yeah, I don't think that's going to clear anything up.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's cool, your opinion is smooth,
but the on panel story is that She Hulk debated with the LT in a cosmic court session,
she was the prime Multiverse's lawyer, and the LT ruled in her favor.

And yes, I'm sure the LT knew the outcome,
just like he knew Warlock would obey his ruling.

But if the LT was written as the omniscient Cosmic God he is all the time,
that would be some truly boring crap to read,
this is why all Cosmic uber related stories have some form of pis,
otherwise, the story would end in three pages:

Like:

Page 1. Uber X arrives, and already knows everything.
Page 2. So uber X waves his hand.
Page 3. Uber X does his job and leaves.

I agree it would be very boring. That's why it doesn't make sense to have any omniscient characters, especially the cosmic judge.

LT one-shots the IG. Nothing to suggest otherwise.

Debate over.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
LT one-shots the IG. Nothing to suggest otherwise.

Debate over.