Well, the thing is, Marek uses the environment to his advantage. It's not like he fights his opponents on the desert, you know. Shaak Tii and the crazy droid master both, at least in the game, try to get away from Marek. They try to create some space between them, which, unfortunately for them, works more on Marek's advantage.
you notice Obi-wan kenobi pretty much regarded EVERYONE as his superior. He regarded Fisto as the same. IMO, i would say Kenobi's opinion, was just plain incorrect. They didn't send Ti or Fisto after Grievous.
You notice Windu gives a talk to Kenobi AFTER the events of LOE, in which he explains to kenobi that kenobi is actually more deadly with sabers than Kenobi realizes. (even insinuates that Kenobi is more powerful than Mace himself...., but mace is a ridiculously humble guy when it come to ranking himself if you notice)
I would point out that a DEFEAT proves nothing. thats proving a negative. Saying Marek lost to someone who WAS kenobi's superior (if she was) still does NOTHING to establish Marek as a top-tier duelist, which we already have done with Kenobi.
Where is the evidence of his top tierdom?
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Well, the thing is, Marek uses the environment to his advantage. It's not like he fights his opponents on the desert, you know. Shaak Tii and the crazy droid master both, at least in the game, try to get away from Marek. They try to create some space between them, which, unfortunately for them, works more on Marek's advantage.
that doesn't give him an advantage with sabers though. THey try to create distance, he fries them with the force. that doesn't prove his lightsaber abilities.
Originally posted by truejedi
with sabers only? I can think of sidious, yoda, luke, dooku, bane, maybe windu you got others?
Katarn, Caedus, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron possibly, and there probably are others, I just can't think of them right now.
Also, Windu is not a 'maybe', it is a 'surely', and Anakin could very well defeat Kenobi when on his right mind.
To Truejedi: Actually, the fact that they try to create distance between them and Marek implies he has the upper hand in the duel, and the reason they're trying to avoid close combat is because they believe they would lose.
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Katarn, Caedus, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron possibly, and there probably are others, I just can't think of them right now.Also, Windu is not a 'maybe', it is a 'surely', and Anakin could very well defeat Kenobi when on his right mind.
care to substantiate ANY of that?
Pure sabers contest only here. Force can't be used. I agree that almost each of those force users could defeat Kenobi in a duel.. (freaking Katarn though? are you kidding me?)
But in a lightsaber duel. You gotta prove some of that before anyone is going to take it as fact. The ultimate master of soresu. Defeated Grievous and his 20 strokes per second. Prove ANY of those names you just listed can deliver 20 strokes per second.
What the hell are you talking about?
Can Dooku, Bane, or Luke deliver 20 strikes per second? No, they can't. Yet they can easily defeat Kenobi... Your point?
I'm afraid I can't prove the people I named above can defeat Kenobi (with quotes, at least) because I don't have the comics or the books here with me.
But I don't understand what you're trying to do here. If you agree that most of the fighters I mentioned would defeat Kenobi saberwise, then what's the point in providing evidence for you?
Originally posted by truejediKatarn: Possesses arguably the second- or third-greatest natural talent with a lightsaber in the mythos based on feats and context, behind perhaps only Luke Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Droma. In a matter of months, when he was basically a neophyte, he fought and killed more Dark Jedi than Kenobi had even come into contact with for the duration of his life.
care to substantiate ANY of that?
Caedus: Outclassed the above, nearly killed Luke Skywalker. 'Nuff said.
But in a lightsaber duel. You gotta prove some of that before anyone is going to take it as fact. The ultimate master of soresu. Defeated Grievous and his 20 strokes per second. Prove ANY of those names you just listed can deliver 20 strokes per second.This is stupid. Delivering over twenty strikes per second is a requirement to defeat Kenobi?
Originally posted by Faunus
Katarn: Possesses arguably the second- or third-greatest natural talent with a lightsaber in the mythos based on feats and context, behind perhaps only Luke Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Droma. In a matter of months, when he was basically a neophyte, he fought and killed more Dark Jedi than Kenobi had even come into contact with for the duration of his life.Caedus: Outclassed the above, nearly killed Luke Skywalker. 'Nuff said.
okay... Katarn, first of all, never defeated anyone who's power can be proven. Sadly, he falls directly into the KOTOR category of unprovable difficulty villians.
defeating Jerec for instance, proves nothing, because not one other jedi of substance fought jerec. Your perhaps Luke Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Drama statement has one word in it that is forced to remove it from consideration. PERHAPS. Its pure speculation.
Second: Caedus never almost killed Luke Skywalker, unless you happen to know of a book form LOTF that i haven't read. Please, elaborate so i can take that one apart. Because it. never. happened.
oh, and lastly, Caedus never defeated Katarn with a saber anyway. I think you are getting all-outs and saber duels a bit mixed up here. I picked Marek over kenobi in an all-out.
Originally posted by Gideon
In Labyrinth of Evil, Kenobi regards Shaak Ti as his superior. So what you've basically said is that Marek, while not being at his peak, was nearly killed by someone whom Kenobi views as his superior.
Quote and context please. I call bullshit if it's in reference to purely combat abilities.
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Quote and context please. I call bullshit if it's in reference to purely combat abilities.
I was mistaken. He does not explicitly say that her powers are above his own. The statement in question is thus:
"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two Masters could not have prevented this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks."
Anakin assumed he was supposed to be impressed. "But General Grievous--"
"Master Ti had faced him before, Anakin. After Muunilinst. She is not only subtle and experienced, but very capable indeed. Seats on the Jedi Council aren't handed out as party favors."
-- Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg 22.
Originally posted by truejedi
you notice Obi-wan kenobi pretty much regarded EVERYONE as his superior.
Humility is not a defense, truejedi. Kenobi did not regard everyone as his superior and while he was characteristically humble, the movies and novels make it quite clear that Obi-Wan was very aware of his proficiency in combat, as he boasts to General Grievous twice. As Yoda suggested in Attack of the Clones, there is an inherent arrogance amongst the Jedi -- even "the older, more experienced" ones. Which, incidentally, he says while looking dramatically at Kenobi himself.
He regarded Fisto as the same.
This was said during the Cestus Deception, a couple of months after the Battle of Geonosis. Is this opinion ever contradicted? Keep in mind that the Complete Visual Dictionary makes it clear that Fisto is a "celebrated swordsmen."
IMO, i would say Kenobi's opinion, was just plain incorrect. They didn't send Ti or Fisto after Grievous.
They didn't send Skywalker, Yoda, or Windu after him either. Does that mean that Obi-Wan is superior to those three or that they are somehow unqualified to kill the general?
You notice Windu gives a talk to Kenobi AFTER the events of LOE, in which he explains to kenobi that kenobi is actually more deadly with sabers than Kenobi realizes. (even insinuates that Kenobi is more powerful than Mace himself...., but mace is a ridiculously humble guy when it come to ranking himself if you notice)
Insinuations aren't conclusive evidence and this does nothing to further your point. We have agreed to the premise that Kenobi is a top tier duelist.
I would point out that a DEFEAT proves nothing. thats proving a negative. Saying Marek lost to someone who WAS kenobi's superior (if she was) still does NOTHING to establish Marek as a top-tier duelist, which we already have done with Kenobi.
How is that proving a negative?
The point is that Marek, far from his prime, was nearly killed by a seasoned Council master whom Obi-Wan held in high esteem (and was regarded as one of the finest duelists in the Order, even according to The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide). There is no conclusive evidence that Kenobi could defeat someone of Marek's caliber, especially when he has no great advantage over him as he did with Anakin.
But in a lightsaber duel. You gotta prove some of that before anyone is going to take it as fact. The ultimate master of soresu. Defeated Grievous and his 20 strokes per second. Prove ANY of those names you just listed can deliver 20 strokes per second.
General Grievous overloaded Obi-Wan's defenses at twenty strikes per second with brute strength and speed. Luke Skywalker has never been stated to move or swing at such speeds, so is Obi-Wan better than him?
Originally posted by truejedi
Second: Caedus never almost killed Luke Skywalker, unless you happen to know of a book form LOTF that i haven't read. Please, elaborate so i can take that one apart. Because it. never. happened.
oh, and lastly, Caedus never defeated Katarn with a saber anyway. I think you are getting all-outs and saber duels a bit mixed up here.
Your right in the fact that Caedus(who had not fully recovered from his duel with Luke) didn't stab Katarn in the chest with strictly his lightsaber. The novel states that the jedi didn't pay too much attention to the 4 oncoming GAG speeders while Caedus used part of his battle awareness to plot their trajectories so he coulduse the force to pull one which hit Katarn, who essentially flow into Caedus who stabbed him. So
However there was a point before where Caedus did out duel Katarn and was about to amputate Katarn's leg but another jedi got her saber in the way of Caedus's.
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
What the hell are you talking about?Can Dooku, Bane, or Luke deliver 20 strikes per second? No, they can't. Yet they can easily defeat Kenobi... Your point?
I'm afraid I can't prove the people I named above can defeat Kenobi (with quotes, at least) because I don't have the comics or the books here with me.
But I don't understand what you're trying to do here. If you agree that most of the fighters I mentioned would defeat Kenobi saberwise, then what's the point in providing evidence for you?
you have all made excellent points with the 20 strokes per statement. I withdraw that one. However, i still fail to see where there is evidece that places marek as a top-tier duelist. Gideon, you yourself said that Kenobi is one. Where does Marek show himself worthy of being considered a top ranked saber duelist. He LOST to Shaak Ti with sabers. That is not a feat. Han Solo would lose to Shaak Ti with sabers. That certainly doesn't mean HE is able to defeat kenobi.
Let me get the quote of that fight. Ti handled Marek pretty handily with just sabers i believe:
The apprentice simulataneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and teh recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before teh snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.
Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward teh mouth of the sarlacc. From there, he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down wiht a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.
In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of th esarlacc. The beast roared, and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came.
The fight progressed around the Sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of th ebeast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return, she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.
Down they drove each other, closer, and closer to teh very lip of the creature's enormous mouth. The air was foul down there, heavy with digestive by - products and teh stink of rotting meat. Ghastly exhalations rolled over them as teh sarlacc roared on. The apprentice was running out of teeth to sever, so he resorted more and more frequently to the sith ligtning and random slashes of his lighsaber to keep it twitching underfoot. Thick ichor leaking out of the wounds made the footing even more treacherous.
You can't keep this up forever, he taunted Shaak Ti as they dueled.
Neither can you, she said, You are wasting your strength too quickly.
"The dark side is inexhaustible."
"Your strength is prodigous," she admiteed, "but that is your doing. Light, dark--" She paused to aim a blow at his head that he barely deflected. "They are just directions. Do not be fooled that you stand on anything other than your own two feet."
He slashed at her own feet as they spun by overhead ans ent one of her ribbons twirling down into the sarlacc's gaping mouth. "Spare me the philosphy lesson, Jedi, " he snarled. "I'm only here for your blood."
"And you may have it, or I yours."
On her last 3 words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.
She gasped and staggerered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.
He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had rasied his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the deperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for teh two of them to defeat each other at the same time.
It looks like in every exchange of pure sabers that Ti held the advantage. Marek needs to attack her or the Sarlaac constantly with the force in order to survive. Even at the end, he doesn't survive her attack on his own, he blocks it with the force.
In fact, this entire fight is a terrible example of a sabers-only duel. Marek is attack with the force practically from the beginning. I see absolutely no evidence that he would have any opportunity to defeat Shaak Ti without using the force prodiguously.
Originally posted by Gideon
At the end of the duel, Jacen was strangling Luke with garrotte wire and was about to kill him. Luke managed to get away, and just as Jacen was about to follow, Ben intervened and stabbed him in the back. So, yes, Jacen did nearly kill Luke Skywalker.
It is there, Luke was trying to "buy some maneuvering room." So I was wrong, Luke had Jacen beaten(trapped in vines I believe) once but didn't kill him because of Ben then once Jacen got out he sent a light fixture falling on Luke. Jacen used the time to try and run but Luke stopped him then the two began dueling again and Jacen would catch Luke with the garrote .