Galen Marek vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Gideon
At the end of the duel, Jacen was strangling Luke with garrotte wire and was about to kill him. Luke managed to get away, and just as Jacen was about to follow, Ben intervened and stabbed him in the back. So, yes, Jacen did nearly kill Luke Skywalker.

I guess you didn't read the rest of the book? In Jacen's OWN reflection on that assault he says that Luke had escaped the garrote on his own, and had inflicted more damage than he had recieved. I'm not in the mood to type out another massive passage. I'll give you a page number.

Inferno, Pg. 266, paragraphs 3 and 4. heck its short:

Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himsef, and he had even excaped the garrote before Ben struck. in fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.

You might ask Caedus if he almost killed luke. Seems he knew better than to believe that.

Couldn't you have posted that before I posted? Now later I will have to reread that portion of the book. 😠

doing my darndest. lol i can only type so fast... u can probably still edit.

Originally posted by truejedi
guess you didn't read the rest of the book?

We're going to have a problem of the grandest proportions, truejedi. Your attitude has been aggressive and sarcastic throughout this entire debate, which is fine. The problem is that you direct some rather unfounded arrogance at me. Let me make this explicitly clear: your entire argument is being thrashed and crushed in almost every possible angle to the point that you chose to desperately try to nullify the novelization's depiction of the Kota-vs-Malak duel and then didn't even bother addressing the brunt of my argument and instead decided to quote a passage where Shaak Ti nearly killed Marek (a point we had all addressed earlier). What is the point? There is no point; Ti's defeat of a Marek who had not reached his prime is not conclusive or suggestive that Kenobi would manage to do the same to an even stronger Marek. Do you copy, soldier?

Now if you're going to go down the "LOLZ SARCASM" route, do us all a favor and actually make a point worth my time. If not, keep it to yourself and focus your wit on your argument, currently on life support and failing fast.

In Jacen's OWN reflection on that assault he says that Luke had escaped the garrote on his own, and had inflicted more damage than he had recieved.

IRRELEVANT, SIR.

Originally posted by Gideon
Luke managed to get away,

I mentioned that Skywalker escaped the garrote, so you wasted valuable time for absolutely nothing. It was Faunus's statement that Jacen Solo nearly killed Luke Skywalker. That Skywalker managed to eventually escape does not change that.

You might ask Caedus if he almost killed luke. Seems he knew better than to believe that.

Except Jacen's reflection does nothing to change, mitigate, or contradict the actual events. He does not state that he was owned, just that he suffered more damage and that Luke had defeated him, even though I'd like to point out that:

a.) Luke was in battle rage.
b.) Luke attacked without warning.
c.) Luke had an outside party to help.

I'm not exactly impressed. But his victory wasn't in question, and you're being an idiot for thinking that it was.

Originally posted by Gideon
I was mistaken. He does not explicitly say that her powers are above his own. The statement in question is thus:

-- Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg 22.

... that says nothing about her actual combat prowess compared to his... she's resourceful, as we know from her second fight with GG, but she is not on Obi-Wan's level in a straight-up fight.

If you want to use abc like Obi-Wan > Tii > Galen, you should remember that Shak Ti > GG > Obi-Wan.

GG > Obi-Wan.

Blatantly false.

Kenobi kept up until at 20 strikes/second (that's five strikes per lightsaber in one second), at which point he went on the offensive. There was no part of the fight that Obi-Wan did not dominate according to the novel, and the Movie has him winning until he gets thrown over the edge.

Kenobi > GG. Fact. It is in canon. Argue against GL if you want, but you'll lose. (A fight with both characters at their peaks would also show General Kenobi's victory, and I'm willing to substantiate that.)

Originally posted by Gideon
We're going to have a problem of the grandest proportions, truejedi. Your attitude has been aggressive and sarcastic throughout this entire debate, which is fine. The problem is that you direct some rather unfounded arrogance at me. Let me make this explicitly clear: your entire argument is being thrashed and crushed in almost every possible angle to the point that you chose to desperately try to nullify the novelization's depiction of the Kota-vs-Malak duel and then didn't even bother addressing the brunt of my argument and instead decided to quote a passage where Shaak Ti nearly killed Marek (a point we had all addressed earlier).

I think you've missed my attitude completely. Which surprises me. I haven't been necessarily tryin to WIN[/] an argument at all. I was in a discussion sort of mode all afternoon. Thats why i kept quoting passages. Trying to say i "desperately" tried to nullify the novelization of the fight is ridiculous. The novel helped my point more than hurt it. I was trying to figure out if we should consider it as canon or not. You answered the question by pointing out that cutscenes only showed the end of the fights, not the fights in their entirety. I accepted this without question if you remember.

Bleah. You've got to stop taking things so personal gideon. Of all the people on this forum, i'm probably the [I]least likely to begin a personal attack on someone. You included. I think the only thing we've even disagreed about before this afternoon in the past was EXACTLY how much more powerful was sidious than everyone else...

i think the only thing that raised my ire this afternoon was the list of fighters listed as better than kenobi without substantiation, which still hastn't been addressed. Then it turned into a ridiculous side note about Caedus vs. Luke, and that was a waste of time. Regardless of what happened in that duel, in which Caedus attacked luke repeatedly with the force, and vice versa, there is still no proof that Caedus was better with a lightsaber than kenobi.

That was the only important point out of THAT entire debate.

What is the point? There is no point; Ti's defeat of a Marek who had not reached his prime is not conclusive or suggestive that Kenobi would manage to do the same to an even stronger Marek. Do you copy, soldier?

This point is perfectly agreeable to me. What you keep trying to say is that BECAUSE marek fought well (or didn't depending on how you interpret that fight) In no way proves that he WOULD defeat Kenobi.

I've asked you REPEATEDLY for evidence that Marek was a top-tier light saber duelist. You have, more than once, after such a post of mine, proceeded by talking about the Shaak Ti duel. There is nothing in that duel to suggest Marek should be considered near the top of the rankings of saber users. There is nothing in the entire game or novel either. If you can prove that Marek WAS a top duelist, great, we can end this discussion move on. I don't believe that enough evidence exist.

Now if you're going to go down the "LOLZ SARCASM" route, do us all a favor and actually make a point worth my time. If not, keep it to yourself and focus your wit on your argument, currently on life support and failing fast.

once again, i believe my idea of discussing something more than argue over it came across as sarcasm, or something... but w/e, i'll make sure to write EXACTLY what i mean from now on.

IRRELEVANT, SIR.

In discussing if Caedus actually almost killed Luke or not, i believe it to be EXTREMELY relevant. However, that entire discussion is IRRELEVANT to the discussion about Kenobi and Marek.

I mentioned that Skywalker escaped the garrote, so you wasted valuable time for absolutely nothing. It was Faunus's statement that Jacen Solo nearly killed Luke Skywalker. That Skywalker managed to eventually escape does not change that.
[QUOTE]

This is fine, and i'm willing to drop it. But saying luke escaping the garrote changes nothing in the above irrelevant argument is incorrect. If a stormtrooper came close to hitting Yoda with a blaster, but Yoda blocked it at the last moment, does that mean the stormtrooper ALMOST killed yoda? If it does, fine, then Jace almost DID kill Luke.

[QUOTE]
Except Jacen's reflection does nothing to change, mitigate, or contradict the actual events. He does not state that he was owned, just that he suffered more damage and that Luke had defeated him, even though I'd like to point out that:

a.) Luke was in battle rage.
b.) Luke attacked without warning.
c.) Luke had an outside party to help.

A. in other words, at full strength. Seems fair.
B. Caedus had warning. From ben. He ignored it. That is hardly an unfair advantage to Luke.
C. That third party probably saved Caedus life, from Caedus's own point of view. That third party saved caedus's life earlier in the fight as well, when he was trapped in the torture chair. Luke hesistated to discuss ethics with Ben while Jacen was trapped.

i'd like to keep this on Marek and Kenobi though.

Is there any evidence supporting Marek as a top-tier duelist? That's all i'm asking, without an ounce of sarcasm or what did you say? aggressiveness involved um... great one.

Originally posted by truejedi
I think you've missed my attitude completely. Which surprises me.

My annoying habit of being almost always right (save for those occasions that my Master, the Great Publius deems it necessary correct me) prevents that from being the case.

I haven't been necessarily tryin to WIN an argument at all.

Consider me relieved, because whether or not you 'necessarily' were, I can tell you that you weren't succeeding.

I was in a discussion sort of mode all afternoon.

You weren't.

Thats why i kept quoting passages.

Yes, that's why I quote passages as well. To keep things in 'discussion mode'. Not because it is a tactic employed to provide evidence for a point.

Please, truejedi, spare me the commentary and the excuses for your lapse in judgment and loss of temper. You're human and it's bound to happen, but these excuses and misdirections are as transparent as the ones you subscribe to in our debates.

Trying to say i "desperately" tried to nullify the novelization of the fight is ridiculous. The novel helped my point more than hurt it.

It really doesn't. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that you didn't address my subsequent analysis of the fight scene.

I was trying to figure out if we should consider it as canon or not. You answered the question by pointing out that cutscenes only showed the end of the fights, not the fights in their entirety. I accepted this without question if you remember.

You should be well within the habit of accepting my conclusions (and those of my Master, the Great Publius!) without question, truejedi. But you will be broken yet.

Bleah. You've got to stop taking things so personal gideon.

Personal? No. You weren't hurting my feelings, truejedi; you were getting on my nerves with your presumption.

And aren't you the one who has, thrice before, taken statements of mine out of context as a personal attack against you? Not quite the person to lecture on individuals 'taking things personally' when you are quite clearly a novice in that particular department. No offense.

Of all the people on this forum, i'm probably the least likely to begin a personal attack on someone. You included.

Your modesty is a sight to behold.

I think the only thing we've even disagreed about before this afternoon in the past was EXACTLY how much more powerful was sidious than everyone else...

And Skywalker.

i think the only thing that raised my ire this afternoon was the list of fighters listed as better than kenobi without substantiation, which still hastn't been addressed. Then it turned into a ridiculous side note about Caedus vs. Luke, and that was a waste of time. Regardless of what happened in that duel, in which Caedus attacked luke repeatedly with the force, and vice versa, there is still no proof that Caedus was better with a lightsaber than kenobi.

You're correct, there. I mean, after all, Kenobi managed to withstand all but twenty strikes per second from General Grievous. There's no proof that Luke Skywalker is on Kenobi's level.

That was the only important point out of THAT entire debate.

Possibly.

This point is perfectly agreeable to me. What you keep trying to say is that BECAUSE marek fought well (or didn't depending on how you interpret that fight) In no way proves that he WOULD defeat Kenobi.

I've asked you REPEATEDLY for evidence that Marek was a top-tier light saber duelist. You have, more than once, after such a post of mine, proceeded by talking about the Shaak Ti duel. There is nothing in that duel to suggest Marek should be considered near the top of the rankings of saber users. There is nothing in the entire game or novel either. If you can prove that Marek WAS a top duelist, great, we can end this discussion move on. I don't believe that enough evidence exist.

You're missing the point here. Shaak Ti was in held high esteem by Kenobi himself and, as Enyalus has pointed out before, was regarded as an unnaturally gifted duelist by multiple sources. Marek was dominated by her at a time when he had not reached his peak abilities, and then would later go on to defeat Darth Vader in terms of Force mastery and lightsaber prowess, a definite sign of improvement.

once again, i believe my idea of discussing something more than argue over it came across as sarcasm, or something... but w/e, i'll make sure to write EXACTLY what i mean from now on.

Yes, be sure to do that. And be sure to properly master the quote, bold, and italicize functions because this rebuttal was rather sloppy.

In discussing if Caedus actually almost killed Luke or not, i believe it to be EXTREMELY relevant. However, that entire discussion is IRRELEVANT to the discussion about Kenobi and Marek.

I don't let things go very easily. Since it came up, I'm inclined to finish it.

[B] A. in other words, at full strength. Seems fair.[/B]

Do not try to undermine or contradict Skywalker's mood and the advantages it gave him. He was stated to be in "battle rage" and was attacking throughout temporary sadism, aggression, and a desire to kill Caedus. It's a time honored Star Wars tradition; attacking out of baser instincts and deep anger gives an opponent an overpowering advantage in single combat. And Luke still didn't obliterate Caedus.

[B] B. Caedus had warning. From ben. He ignored it. That is hardly an unfair advantage to Luke.[/B]

"Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang. Ben's jaw dropped." -- Inferno, page 257. Ben warned Jacen that Skywalker was on the ship, not that he was about to kill him. Luke attacked without warning or personal provocation (not that his actions were unjust), but it was the equivalent to a sneak attack.

[B] C. That third party probably saved Caedus life, from Caedus's own point of view. That third party saved caedus's life earlier in the fight as well, when he was trapped in the torture chair. Luke hesistated to discuss ethics with Ben while Jacen was trapped.[/B]

That third party probably saved Luke's life as well.

I'd like to keep this on Marek and Kenobi though.

Is there any evidence supporting Marek as a top-tier duelist? That's all i'm asking, without an ounce of sarcasm or what did you say? aggressiveness involved um... great one. [/B]

Your claim was that Kenobi could defeat Marek. Your burden to prove. Give me evidence that he would defeat Marek other than that he's a "top tier duelist!"

And be snappy.

Originally posted by Gideon

It really doesn't. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that you didn't address my subsequent analysis of the fight scene.

I believe i did. If you analyzed it further than Shaak Ti was "almost defeated" by Marek with sabers, and i missed that, then i apologize for the oversite. I'll go right back after posting this and check. I disagreed with your analysis, based on that fact that during their entire duel, Marek was using the force to even things up. Shaak Ti and Marek never fought a pure saber duel. THAT'S what makes it irrelevant as proof of marek's pure saber abilities.

You should be well within the habit of accepting my conclusions (and those of my Master, the Great Publius!) without question, truejedi. But you will be broken yet.

You are a legend in your own mind Gideon, and i truly am happy for you.

And aren't you the one who has, thrice before, taken statements of mine out of context as a personal attack against you? Not quite the person to lecture on individuals 'taking things personally' when you are quite clearly a novice in that particular department. No offense.

None taken

Your modesty is a sight to behold.

gaze as long as you wish, its the least i can offer.

And Skywalker.

to be fair though, usually the discussion about skywalker relates directly to his relative strength vs. sidious.

You're correct, there. I mean, after all, Kenobi managed to withstand all but twenty strikes per second from General Grievous. There's no proof that Luke Skywalker is on Kenobi's level.

You're missing the point here. Shaak Ti was in held high esteem by Kenobi himself and, as Enyalus has pointed out before, was regarded as an unnaturally gifted duelist by multiple sources. Marek was dominated by her at a time when he had not reached his peak abilities, and then would later go on to defeat Darth Vader in terms of Force mastery and lightsaber prowess, a definite sign of improvement.

I guess i don't understand what you mean by this. as you said, i have missed the point. I agree with everything you just wrote. I wasn't using his fight against Shaak Ti as proof of his incompetence, i was saying it wasn't fair to use it as a measure of his strength.

Yes, he definitly improved, but after all that improvement, he was at or around the level of ANH Vader, which is hardly a saber duelist that we consider top tier. A force user of epic proportion perhaps, but HARDLY is vader considered the gold standard of saber user. Yet ANH vader is probably the top saber duelist that Marek faces.

Yes, be sure to do that. And be sure to properly master the quote, bold, and italicize functions because this rebuttal was rather sloppy.

indeed it was. i failed quite utterly.

Do not try to undermine or contradict Skywalker's mood and the advantages it gave him. He was stated to be in "battle rage" and was attacking throughout temporary sadism, aggression, and a desire to kill Caedus. It's a time honored Star Wars tradition; attacking out of baser instincts and deep anger gives an opponent an overpowering advantage in single combat. And Luke still didn't obliterate Caedus.

Hmmm.. an advantage though? we can call it strength. We can call it extra speed. We can call it more power, but can we call it an advantage? I mean, at the end of the day, that is STILL what that person is capable of, given correct motivation.

We assume, on this forum that each person is performing at peak ability, we dont' go with a "they aren't motivated enough" approach. Jacen is almost always angry, and filled with rage when fighting, its just how he fights. We don't contend that it gives him some EXTRA advantage though.

"Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang. Ben's jaw dropped." -- Inferno, page 257. Ben warned Jacen that Skywalker was on the ship, not that he was about to kill him. Luke attacked without warning or personal provocation (not that his actions were unjust), but it was the equivalent to a sneak attack.

he not only warned him that he was on the ship, he warned him that he was directly behind him: pg. 256

"Ben glimpsed a dark figure stepping into the doorway: "I don't think you will need any help finding him, Jacen. Dad's right behind you."

he also does, in effect, warn jacen that Luke is going to try to kill him. The quote is, still pg. 256.

"Ben shrugged. "Its your funeral."

Its true that luke gave caedus no time to surrender, but i believe had ample warning, had he heeded it.

That third party probably saved Luke's life as well.

what i already posted DIRECTLY contradicts that from the man fighting luke. You presume that your interpretation of the fight is going to be better than Caedus's himself? I mean, you are all-powerful and all, but geez, that's claiming a lot. Where is ONE place in the duel where Ben helped luke other than stabbing Caedus at the end? a move which Caedus decided SAVED HIS LIFE.

Your claim was that Kenobi could defeat Marek. Your burden to prove. Give me evidence that he would defeat Marek other than that he's a "top tier duelist!"

simple: Kenobi defeated Grievous, and was "the master" of soresu. Not just a master, "the master."

He defeated Anakin, a duel in which anakin, despite being filled with his "battle rage" (which surely gave him some sort of unfair advantage, 😆 )was unable to breach the defenses of kenobi, despite being on the offensive for the entire battle. Kenobi manipulated that entire duel, as proven by the ROTS novelization, which i've posted several times in the past.

I would believe the burden of proof would actually be on you to prove that Marek can do ANY of those things. Considering the greatest saber duelist he ever fought was essentially the ANH version of Vader.

Gideon, i just don't think the evidence is there to make the claim Mrek was that good with a saber.
I'm interested by the fact that you believe it to be MY burden of proof. Kenobi is an established highly skilled saber duelist. Marek has never been established as such. To assume that i have to provide evidence that someone who has been established as a skilled saber duelist can defeat one who hasn't been is treading on the toes of simple logic.

Go ahead and establish your claim that Marek IS a highly skilled saber-duelist of Kenobi's caliber, and then we can move on, because asking for more proof than the above would throw back into doubt almost every conclusion this forum has ever come to.

And be snappy.

i'm working on homework, so that means that THIS is my top priority, so definitly.

i don't see any other post regarding more on the shaak ti fight than i have already addressed. what exactly were you referring to?

Originally posted by truejedi
I believe i did. If you analyzed it further than Shaak Ti was "almost defeated" by Marek with sabers, and i missed that, then i apologize for the oversite. I'll go right back after posting this and check. I disagreed with your analysis, based on that fact that during their entire duel, Marek was using the force to even things up. Shaak Ti and Marek never fought a pure saber duel. THAT'S what makes it irrelevant as proof of marek's pure saber abilities.

I was referring to my analysis of the Kota vs. Marek fight scene.

You are a legend in your own mind Gideon, and i truly am happy for you.

It takes a great person indeed when, confronted with perfection, does not act envious or jealous, but revels in that person's glory. And because of that, I thank you.

None taken

Great.

gaze as long as you wish, its the least i can offer.

It's probably all you can offer. You're not exactly a man of many talents.

to be fair though, usually the discussion about skywalker relates directly to his relative strength vs. sidious.

Usually, but not always.

I've already admitted the 20 strokes per second logic was poor. No need to rub it in. 🙁

Well, really, Skywalker hasn't demonstrated speed on remote par with General Grievous. I guess that means Kenobi and Grievous are on a tier of their own.

I guess i don't understand what you mean by this. as you said, i have missed the point. I agree with everything you just wrote. I wasn't using his fight against Shaak Ti as proof of his incompetence, i was saying it wasn't fair to use it as a measure of his strength.

Great.

Yes, he definitly improved, but after all that improvement, he was at or around the level of ANH Vader, which is hardly a saber duelist that we consider top tier. A force user of epic proportion perhaps, but HARDLY is vader considered the gold standard of saber user. Yet ANH vader is probably the top saber duelist that Marek faces.

Vader is actually a highly skilled lightsaber duelist. And Ti's accolades need not be mentioned. Both are regarded as top tier duelists.

indeed it was. i failed quite utterly.

Proof that, in life, there's not just a first time for everything. I can't blame you, truejedi. It wasn't your first time and, at the rate you're going, definitely not your last.

Hmmm.. an advantage though? we can call it strength. We can call it extra speed. We can call it more power, but can we call it an advantage? I mean, at the end of the day, that is STILL what that person is capable of, given correct motivation.

Here's where I must admonish you for trying to dodge the issue with a Casper-class misdirection. "Strength, extra speed, more power" are advantages, truejedi. Take the syringe out of your arm, snap alert, or concede the point. Your apparent meth addiction is really becoming a detriment to your abilities.

We assume, on this forum that each person is performing at peak ability, we dont' go with a "they aren't motivated enough" approach. Jacen is almost always angry, and filled with rage when fighting, its just how he fights. We don't contend that it gives him some EXTRA advantage though.

Jacen does not always fight out of anger. For example, he did not have the same deep-rooted hatred or desire for pain that Luke had when he attacked Katarn. Jacen simply removes morals out of the equation. In this scenario, Luke walked in on his nephew torturing his son. The emotional response is hardly the same.

he not only warned him that he was on the ship, he warned him that he was directly behind him: pg. 256 [B]

he also does, in effect, warn jacen that Luke is going to try to kill him. The quote is, still pg. 256. [B]

Its true that luke gave caedus no time to surrender, but i believe had ample warning, had he heeded it.

That was prior to the duel. And it was a sneak attack.

what i already posted DIRECTLY contradicts that from the man fighting luke. You presume that your interpretation of the fight is going to be better than Caedus's himself? I mean, you are all-powerful and all, but geez, that's claiming a lot. Where is ONE place in the duel where Ben helped luke other than stabbing Caedus at the end? a move which Caedus decided SAVED HIS LIFE.

The common sense gene must be dormant in your family. That Ben's presence snapped Luke out of his bloodlust is not in question. But it is simple fact that Ben hurling the vibroblade at Jacen was a godsend to Luke as well. Jesus H. Christ.

simple: Kenobi defeated Grievous, and was "the master" of soresu. Not just a master, "the master."

That's some of the shittiest logic I've seen. Honestly, I think your increased activity here has yielded some disasterous applications of logic.

He defeated Anakin, a duel in which anakin, despite being filled with his "battle rage" (which surely gave him some sort of unfair advantage, 😆 )was unable to breach the defenses of kenobi, despite being on the offensive for the entire battle. Kenobi manipulated that entire duel, as proven by the ROTS novelization, which i've posted several times in the past.

Your deliberate and woeful ignorance of the facts undermine any attempt to cast yourself in a redeeming light. Obi-Wan was the beneficiary of years of partnership with Anakin, possessing intimate knowledge of his form and of his dueling habits, and happens to be a master of the ultimate defense form. Anakin, on the other hand, was transformed into a raving lunatic whose imagined betrayals ruined him. Sidious himself offers testimony that Skywalker had "been between worlds, then, and vulnerable."

Do not make me correct you again.

I would believe the burden of proof would actually be on you to prove that Marek can do ANY of those things. Considering the greatest saber duelist he ever fought was essentially the ANH version of Vader.

Logic 101: those who make the contention bear the burden of proof. Those whose opinions contradict the straightforward interpretation also bear the burden of proof.

You committed the former. You claimed that Kenobi was better. It's your job to prove it.

Gideon, i just don't think the evidence is there to make the claim Mrek was that good with a saber.
I'm interested by the fact that you believe it to be MY burden of proof. Kenobi is an established highly skilled saber duelist. Marek has never been established as such. To assume that i have to provide evidence that someone who has been established as a skilled saber duelist can defeat one who hasn't been is treading on the toes of simple logic.

But as you have pointed out, the greatest lightsaber duelist he defeated was Darth Vader. There weren't dozens of blademasters to pit himself against. That makes it a little hard for someone to establish themselves.

Simple logic indeed.

Go ahead and establish your claim that Marek IS a highly skilled saber-duelist of Kenobi's caliber, and then we can move on, because asking for more proof than the above would throw back into doubt almost every conclusion this forum has ever come to.

Your contention. Your job to prove.

i'm working on homework, so that means that THIS is my top priority, so definitly.

Multi-tasking is clearly not one of your limited gifts as we have seen from the quality of your responses. But I'm coming to believe that it wouldn't make a difference one way or another.

Don't disappoint me again, truejedi.

Edit: And I strongly suggest that you do not respond immediately. Take your time and give a structured, thought out response in the morning. I have yet to be anything but underwhelmed by your misapplication of logic thus far, and I'm too set in my ways to endure another bout. Wait until morning or the afternoon and give me something worthwhile.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Blatantly false.

Kenobi kept up until at 20 strikes/second (that's five strikes per lightsaber in one second), at which point he went on the offensive. There was no part of the fight that Obi-Wan did not dominate according to the novel, and the Movie has him winning until he gets thrown over the edge.

Kenobi > GG. Fact. It is in canon. Argue against GL if you want, but you'll lose. (A fight with both characters at their peaks would also show General Kenobi's victory, and I'm willing to substantiate that.)

I meant to say Obi-Wan > GG, dude. 😬

Well, that's what happens when you're black. You constantly miscommunicate.

Originally posted by Gideon
I was referring to my analysis of the Kota vs. Marek fight scene.

ok. Once again, during that fight, Marek is constantly attacking via the force. Marek never has a duel in which he doesn't use the force in fact. His skills as a pure lightssaber duelist are an absolute unknown.

It takes a great person indeed when, confronted with perfection, does not act envious or jealous, but revels in that person's glory. And because of that, I thank you.

I can't believe you actually said i was great at something... if i ever bothered to profile anything, i might that. Oh wait, but i don't.

Great.

reminds me of your previous compliment. makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

It's probably all you can offer. You're not exactly a man of many talents.

Usually, but not always.

oh good grief.

Well, really, Skywalker hasn't demonstrated speed on remote par with General Grievous. I guess that means Kenobi and Grievous are on a tier of their own.

Isn't there a quote somewhere where it says that it looked as though luke had 20 sabers at once? Ah well, even bringing THAT quote up is petty. I have repeatedly removed the 20 strokes-per as evidence.

Great.

see above.

Vader is actually a highly skilled lightsaber duelist. And Ti's accolades need not be mentioned. Both are regarded as top tier duelists.

suited vader is a highly skilled lightsaber duelist? give me a highly skilled opponent that HE fought. This time, you made the claim of Vader's greatness to be fair. Not contradicting. I just don't remember him winning many duels using solely his saber. He always uses some overwhelming TK attacks to substantiate it. Stripping him of the offensive force attacks would rob him of much of his potency.

Proof that, in life, there's not just a first time for everything. I can't blame you, truejedi. It wasn't your first time and, at the rate you're going, definitely not your last.

and it wasn't. I had to go back and edit the last in one place. forgot one little ol backslash.

Here's where I must admonish you for trying to dodge the issue with a Casper-class misdirection. "Strength, extra speed, more power" are advantages, truejedi. Take the syringe out of your arm, snap alert, or concede the point. Your apparent meth addiction is really becoming a detriment to your abilities.

they are not advantages if a duelist has that ability anyway. Do we consider Anakin's victory over dooku to be less legitimate because he was angry? I think not. Bloodlusted Luke is luke at his peak. Its not an advantage that gives luke abilities that luke didn't have anyway.
The meth addiction is fine. I can quit whenever I want to.

Jacen does not always fight out of anger. For example, he did not have the same deep-rooted hatred or desire for pain that Luke had when he attacked Katarn. Jacen simply removes morals out of the equation. In this scenario, Luke walked in on his nephew torturing his son. The emotional response is hardly the same.

Okay, remove the word Jacen, insert the word Bane. Or remove the word Jacen, and insert the word Anakin. Sith fight with anger. Jacen WAS kinda different in his sithliness. My point remains. Bane fought with rage and hatred in his duel with the Jedi. We don't discount his performace because he was angry, and say, but a calmer bane isn't as good. It just doesn't make sense. We assume that all of these combatants are motivated to fight.

That was prior to the duel. And it was a sneak attack.

it was a second before the duel. Jacen is answering Ben's words, "its your funeral" when Luke attacks him. The sneak attack was only a sneak attack because Caedus ignored a perfectly good warning.

The common sense gene must be dormant in your family.

This also from that same guy i mentioned above

That Ben's presence snapped Luke out of his bloodlust is not in question. But it is simple fact that Ben hurling the vibroblade at Jacen was a godsend to Luke as well. Jesus H. Christ.

Not according to the book Gideon. According to the book, Ben doing that saved Caedus's life. Caedus would have been defeated by Luke. he was losing.

I think you are envisioning a scenario where Luke broke the garrotte, staggered away, and Caedus walks over and cuts him in two or something.

that simply WASN'T how the fight was going to go down from Caedus's view, and if that isn't what was going to happen from the guy who was going to do the walking and the cutting, those actions never would have taken place. Any intepretation of the fight we have has to take a backseat to a view from the fighter who was supposedly about to win.

That's some of the shittiest logic I've seen. Honestly, I think your increased activity here has yielded some disasterous applications of logic.

you are free to think what you wish gideon. Simple fact is, in the middle of the first page, you yourself called Obi-wan a top-tier duelist.
If the words of the infallible gideon can't persuade you, my unworthy effort never will, so i might as well quite now.

The logic was not poor. Being called the master of the highest form of defensive lightsabery by a being of Windu's caliber is more high praise then Marek ever recieves from any source on his lightsaber ability. His force use is praised repeatedly, but never his skill with a saber.

Considering how many times you have referred to kenobi holding Shaak Ti in high esteem as a point of establishing HER relative strength, it strains credulity that you would try to act like that Mace Windu's opinion of Kenobi is completely beside the point in establishing the ability of kenobi.

Your deliberate and woeful ignorance of the facts undermine any attempt to cast yourself in a redeeming light. Obi-Wan was the beneficiary of years of partnership with Anakin, possessing intimate knowledge of his form and of his dueling habits, and happens to be a master of the ultimate defense form. Anakin, on the other hand, was transformed into a raving lunatic whose imagined betrayals ruined him. Sidious himself offers testimony that Skywalker had "been between worlds, then, and vulnerable."

there is no ignorance of the facts. I'm also not too worried about casting myself in a "redeeming light" so luckily i'm not missing out on anything.

Yes, Obi-Wan held advantages over anakin. Lets look at your claims of advantages here:

His partnership, and possessing intimate knowledge of form and habits. NOT ADVANTAGES Anakin possesses the same knowledge and familiarity.

master of ultimate defense form: advantage, but one that would be equally prevalent against Marek.

raving lunatic Anakin, definite advantage kenobi.

All that said, Kenobi still defeated Anakin, which is still something more impressive than marek has ever done.

Logic 101: those who make the contention bear the burden of proof. Those whose opinions contradict the straightforward interpretation also bear the burden of proof.
You committed the former. You claimed that Kenobi was better. It's your job to prove it.

I have done so. Both by showing his saber accomplishments (Grievous (whom you ignored by the way, concentrating instead on vader, whom you claimed weakened) and Skywalker.
and by giving praise from a highlevel duelist himself in Windu that establishes the extent of Kenobi's mastery of a lightsaber.

The final point in my proof, to prove the above better than Kenobi is to make the claim that Marek has not accomplished as much, nor has he ever face a saber duelist on the same level as both Grievous and Skywalker in a PURE LIGHTSABER DUEL, which marek has NEVER been shown to fight in.

You are yet to prove that second point false, and until you do, then my proof would stand. Belittling Kenobi's victories DO NOT change the fact that Marek has not ONE PURE SABER DUEL to his credit. There is nothing to place him as a credible saber threat when the use of the force as an offensive weapon is forbidden. Nothing.

Thats all the proof that can be offered of that. Until you provide ANYTHING that shows marek had the ability to win a saber fight against a top level opponent without the force, then that proof stands gideon,

But as you have pointed out, the greatest lightsaber duelist he defeated was Darth Vader. There weren't dozens of blademasters to pit himself against. That makes it a little hard for someone to establish themselves.

You said it yourself. He didn't establish himself. He never did. There is NOTHING to support his ability as a pure saber duelist. He used the force in every duel. So his pure saber ability is COMPLETELY unsubstantiated.

It is poor logic indeed to ASSUME an unknown is greater than a top-tier duelist. In fact it is the same logic that has kept Revan from being a god on these forums.

It doesn't matter how often you belittle Kenobi's accomplishments, at the end of the day, he has won pure lightsaber contests. Marek never has. I can't make it much clearer than that. If you make the claim that Marek CAN defeat an opponent without the force, be aware that you are making a claim, and in that case, according to your own rules, the burden of proof will shift to you.

Multi-tasking is clearly not one of your limited gifts as we have seen from the quality of your responses. But I'm coming to believe that it wouldn't make a difference one way or another.

Don't disappoint me again, truejedi.

i dont intend to. This is it. This is a simple situation where all the facts support my side of the argument, none of the facts support yours, (do i need to say one more time that Marek has never even fought a pure saber contest?) but you are most likely going to come back with alleged "poor logic, and incompetence, " based on nothing but your own opinion.

To place Marek above Kenobi takes a long journey down the road of speculation, and i'm done traveling it. If we can make assumptions of this magnitude, then honestly, what is even the point of this forum? Might as well call it Fanboy's R us, and move on with it.

i'm probably done with this. I have posted good arguments, if you choose to call them rubbish, (and you will) then i guess i have no choice but to turn back to my alleged meth addiction for comfort.

I know.

I tried to tell this crippled kid in a hospital that I hoped he felt better, but I ended up just ripping him in half.

I'm afraid I'll have to inform Faunus of your racism towards people with black skin, Gideon. You're gonna get pwnt.

Blax, that wasn't because you're black. It was probably because you're possessed or something.

Faunus is like penulti-mo anti-Blaxican. 🙁

So what. He'll do anything to make Gideon suffer.

Apparently not.

Publius still lives.