Galen Marek vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Gideon
Are you really done, truejedi? Because you've committed about a dozen fallacies and misapplications of logic that I'm dying to embarrass you with. But if you're done, I'll reiterate with the simple conclusion.

You've misinterpretted a great deal of my responses, you seemingly have no understanding of what an advantage is, you willingly ignore the fact that Anakin was "between worlds" and emotionally and mentally unstable (thus removing his ability to defeat Kenobi), you willingly ignore the fact that Skywalker executed a sneak attack, you willingly ignore the fact that Ben hurling a vibroblade in Caedus's back also prevented Caedus from continuing the fight. And lastly, you do not understand that managing to withstand General Grievous's speed and ferocity and defeating an emotionally and mentally unstable Anakin isn't grounds for superiority over Marek.

Your entire argument -- the whole damn thing -- the entire thing -- is complete crap. The whole thing. It's entirety. 100% constitution. Every fiber of its being. It is a joke.

It should be used in colleges around the world to demonstrate how a single argument can consist of a million fallacies and misapplications of logic.

For the record, I said I wasn't taking this personal, not that I didn't give out personal attacks which, surprise, surprise, were all said in sarcasm, as is my general attitude.

But this? This was seriously a terrible argument. I hope you'll summon more patience and give more effort the next time.

I guess i'm not done then. Can't seem to just let it go. I'm done with lengthy point by point disagreements though. Lets call this my closing argument, then my side is going to rest.

Since you are are fond of the legal scenario, You gideon, are like a defense attorney whose client is guilty. There is no evidence that supports Marek as skillful lightsaber duelist. None.

You know this, and you realize your only opportunity to win is continue to state that my "evidence" of kenobi's superiority is crap.
so you continue to do so. Even when the evidence is perfectly. You ignore the fact that Kenobi has been long established on this forum as a top tier duelist, you ignore the fact that you said so yourself several pages ago, and instead discount every bit of evidence we are given supporting Kenobi's ability.

The approach for that is very good. Its hard to prove something when every shred of evidence is described as idiocy.

The truth, when asked to defend your own client, or the contention that Marek is actually superior to Kenobi, you have nothing. The only fallback you have is to continue to attack MY assessement of kenobi.

The truth in this scenario is you have picked the wrong argument. I am right, and you are wrong,
no matter how many times you want to claim my logic is poor, or full of fallacies, or my argument is terrible, that will never change.

And the longer this goes, the worse and worse you look for NEVER supporting your own implied counter-claim that Marek is better.

You pulled a masterful aside, or perhaps it was valerian, getting back into the Caedus Luke debate, because my luke fanboyism is admittedly my biggest weakness. I will no longer answer that one, because it IS irrelevant to this discussion.

If you want to say you win this debate, gideon, fine, i have no problem with "winning" and "losing" the debate. Really doesn't matter. I have no aspirations to be a lawyer. The simply fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, i'm still right, and you are still wrong.

Until you offer some evidence of Marek being a capable being with a lightsaber when he isn't constantly attacking with the force tho, its as if you can't even come up with an alibi for your client.

This thing slides quickly into "beyond reasonable doubt" if you continue to do nothing but attack my arguments and offer no counter-arguments of your own.

My two points that matter stand, no matter how many times you insult them they ARE excellent evidence.

In Pure Saber contests:
1. Kenobi: Defeated Grievous, Defeated Skywalker, called the Master of Soresu.

2. Marek: Not one victory to his name in a pure saber contest.

These sir are the facts that i have repeatedly put forth, and you can't touch them. You haven't even tried with the second one. I know you are incapable of giving up, but insulting the above as a poor argument for Kenobi's superiority is simply put: Wrong.

I had a multi-paragraph opener bringing you to task for how stupid you've been, truejedi, but I think that a succinct response will make it clear.

For the record? You have been an idiot of ridiculously major proportions. This will be our final debate on, well, anything.

Your first mistake:

Originally posted by truejedi
You know this, and you realize your only opportunity to win is continue to state that my "evidence" of kenobi's superiority is crap.

You have misconstrued my intention from the very beginning, which is that I never made the contention that Marek was superior to Kenobi as a duelist. We are not having a disagreement of premise or contention. I have simply asked you to provide evidence that Kenobi was better -- which is not the same thing as saying "LOLZ MAREK > KENOBI."

Your second mistake:

Even when the evidence is perfectly. You ignore the fact that Kenobi has been long established on this forum as a top tier duelist, you ignore the fact that you said so yourself several pages ago,

This is a blatant appeal to the majority, truejedi, which is another of your many logical fallacies. It is my personal belief that Marka Ragnos is among the most powerful individuals ever in the mythos, even though, as Lightsnake points out, there is no conclusive evidence that would name him as such. So the collective opinion of the majority of debaters around here never constitutes itself as fact. Ever.

Your third mistake:

and instead discount every bit of evidence we are given supporting Kenobi's ability.

No, I've simply put it into proper perspective. You're the one parading about proclaiming "OBI DEFEATED ANI" without elucidating upon the reasons why. Skywalker's dueling ability is considerably superior to Obi-Wan's own; he lost because he was in the heat of psychopathy, "between worlds and vulnerable," losing all sense of combat objectivity and rationality. Kenobi, on the other hand, was the beneficiary of greater experience and an appreciation for Skywalker's combat abilities. He had trained the boy, had tutored him and fought by his side for years, and was intimately familiar with his combat style and habits. That is why he won.

The truth, when asked to defend your own client, or the contention that Marek is actually superior to Kenobi, you have nothing.

Where did I say that Marek was better?

Your fourth mistake:

The truth in this scenario is you have picked the wrong argument. I am right, and you are wrong,

Your proclamations of victory don't impress me. You've deluded yourself into thinking that we have separate agendas or beliefs. I've simply asked you to provide evidence for Kenobi's superiority and you have yet to satisfy me. In that regard, I've undermined you with mere words, and exposed a rather obvious attempt to one-up ol' Gideon. You have failed and will continue to fail. You'll need Advent, Nai, or Publius to do that.

And the longer this goes, the worse and worse you look for NEVER supporting your own implied counter-claim that Marek is better

Where have I claimed that Marek was a better duelist than Kenobi?

You pulled a masterful aside, or perhaps it was valerian, getting back into the Caedus Luke debate, because my luke fanboyism is admittedly my biggest weakness. I will no longer answer that one, because it IS irrelevant to this discussion.

No, you won't discuss it any longer because you're dead wrong.

Until you offer some evidence of Marek being a capable being with a lightsaber when he isn't constantly attacking with the force tho, its as if you can't even come up with an alibi for your client.

I never made the contention. I simply asked you to prove that Kenobi is superior beyond all reasonable doubt. You haven't, and so my "client" is currently walking the streets as a free man... er... idea.

The simply fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, i'm still right, and you are still wrong.

I admire the tenacity, but as I've said, you'll need Advent, Nai, or Publius for that delusion to become reality. By yourself? You barely qualify as "annoying."

I really don't know what to say other than that I hope you find something better to do with your free time. As far as debaters go, you're one of the worst.

So basically you guys agree that Marek is superior in the force, and Obi is superior with a lightsaber, right?

That's right. But what about the all-out?

Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
That's right. But what about the all-out?

I'd give to Marek via the force.

I'm still looking for more conclusive proof. But, yeah, Marek destroys Obi-Wan in an all out fight.

Originally posted by skywalker833
]And last, Dooku, in a lightsaber duel I consider obi wan his superior.

Nah.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm still looking for more conclusive proof.

There is, no actual reason to believe Marek could last... even thirty seconds, let alone defeat RotS Obi-Wan in a duel.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
There is, no actual reason to believe Marek could last... even thirty seconds, let alone defeat RotS Obi-Wan in a duel.

Blaxican, joking aside, you're falling fast to the same woeful ignorance that truejedi is contaminated with. The contention was that Kenobi > Marek in terms of lightsaber abilities. I never denied it, but simply asked for proof. Marek has a superior command of the Force and greater potency with it; incredible reserves of energy. He also has deep knowledge and familiarity with Kenobi through PROXY. He went on to defeat Darth Vader and Kazdan Paratus who, with his saberpike alone, was capable of destroying "legions" of Confederacy droids.

And by 'duel', I hope you mean a lightsaber fight. Force-wise, he crushes Kenobi. And no, it isn't close.

I realize that Marek would rape the shit out of him in the force and in an all-out duel. But, lo and behold, I never have and never will give a flying **** about those two scenarios in this thread.

My point is that Marek would get curbed in lightsabers only, man. PORIXE doesn't mean anything because Proxie is a droid, completely. The general is a cyborg, he has a brain in addition to all that computerized machinery. The fact that PROXIE is but a droid means that he doesn't have the natural intuition that is responsible for Soldier's victories on the battlefield more than anything else, doesn't have natural resourcefulnesses that humans have, and most importantly does not have the force. PROXIE is a cheap smoke and mirror replica of Obi-Wan, he is not Obi-Wan. Hooray, Galen knows the ins and outs of Soresu... so what? That's the only advantage he has. As far as lightsabers only is concerned, he has not shown any dueling feats what-so-ever. Everytime he fights he uses an excessive amount of offensive force attacks on his opponents, so really you trying to factor in his fights with Shaak and Kohm and Vader and Paratus and even Proxie is pointless.

And for the record, "legions of droids" is irrelevant because it's ambiguous. A legion of soldiers in modern times means a large number of soldiers. "Large number" is equally ambiguous. An army means the same thing. They're not quantifiable numbers. Thirty men can count as a legion or an army, though I'm sure he destroyed more than that.

Hell, Jedi run from droidekas and Magnaguards were designed specifically to duel and overpower most Jedi. So the idea that human intuition automatically makes a difference is bullshit. Marek has battled a replica of Kenobi before, knowing all about Soresu and his habits. It's an advantage, period.

When you give me something other than "LOLZ HE DEFEETED AN ANGRY ANAKIN" we'll talk.

They do run from them, they also kill the shit out of them as well. I seem to remember Obi-Wan disposing of two by himself, and Asouka defeating three. By herself. Without injury.

Badass Magna Guards. haermm

Hell I remember Kenobi killing like three of them by dropping a big ass block on them.

Wait... what was that? What did he use to dispose of them? He used his human resourcefulnesses.

Fact is that, in the end, the droids always get defeated; they kill their share of people and then they die. Considering Maga Guards and Droidekas are susceptible to the force their whole purpose is FUBAR anyway. Tell me Gideon, and let's not use GL logic here, what would happen to a Droideka if a Jedi were to use a simple force push on it?

And PROXIE knows his mannerisms and his fighting style but still isn't him. Greivous knew Soresu and had fought Kenobi before, yet still ended up losing to him. You say that Kenobi had the perfect fighting style to beat him, but he still at least showed the reflexes to block all of GG's strikes. When has Marek ever done the same? Or similiar? Can you prove he is fast enough and good enough of a duelist to move that fast at all? Can you even prove that Marek has defeated Proxie without using offensive force techniques?

I haven't even mentioned Anakin... Watch who you're talking to, Gideon.

As I told you before, the novelization says that Obi-Wan became a living conduit of Force energy when he battled General Grievous. In fact, the narrator says that the Magnaguards whom Obi-Wan crushed with the gigantic crate were "well beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat."

The point about droids always being defeated is stupid. Your point? Hell, so do the Sith. Does this mean that they are any less capable? To quote the official databank, Marek had "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" and Wookieepedia lists him as a master of Juyo according to the novelization, which requires him to be a "high end master of multiple forms."

Which Kenobi is not.

And by 'you', I mean the so-called opposition. Raise your game or get off the court, Blaxican.

By the way, I'm not mad at you or anything. You just need to understand how much you suck compared to cool people like me.

Originally posted by Gideon
As I told you before, the novelization says that Obi-Wan became a living conduit of Force energy when he battled General Grievous. In fact, the narrator says that the Magnaguards whom Obi-Wan crushed with the gigantic crate were "well beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat."

Originally posted by Gideon
As I told you before, the novelization says that Obi-Wan became a living conduit of Force energy when he battled General Grievous.

..kay?

[

In fact, the narrator says that the Magnaguards whom Obi-Wan crushed with the gigantic crate were "well beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat."

Exactly my point. Hence he used his, ya know, human resourcefulnesses to kill them.

By the by, can you give me the exact quote for that, please?

And Ashouka by the way at the time of defeating those three had youngling level skills. She had only been a padawan for a couple of days, not long enough to really progress that much.

The point about droids always being defeated is stupid. Your point? Hell, so do the Sith. Does this mean that they are any less capable?

Yeah actually I do. 😐

To quote the official databank, Marek had "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat"

Ambiguous considering he hasn't actually done anything, and Obi-Wan has mastered his skills. He's the Soresu master. The man.

and Wookieepedia lists him as a master of Juyo according to the novelization, which requires him to be a "high end master of multiple forms."

Quote from the novel itself, please. **** Wookiepedia.

And by 'you', I mean the so-called opposition. Raise your game or get off the court, Blaxican.

BackPeddling fool. Publius shall know of this. 313

I'm black, playing games on the court is something you have no chance of beating me in.

By the way, I'm not mad at you or anything. You just need to understand how much you suck compared to cool people like me.

Journey sucks.

I'll ****ing kill you. I will stab you and hire a goat to rape your ****ing corpse. YOU WILL DIE SIR.

And I'm at my mother's. But I have Monday and Tuesday off, so I'll get you the passage sometime soon.

And I'm at my mother's.

And why the **** do you have Monday off?

Originally posted by Faunus
I am showing immense restraint here.

And why the **** do you have Monday off?

No idea. For some reason, we have Monday and Tuesday off. I'm sure there's a logical reason. National Incest Day?

Incest is out of style in New York.

I have Tuesday off, and next Tuesday for no reason, but Monday is overkill. You do not deserve a four day weekend.