League of Champions Week Eight: id369/Kandy Vs. Leo/Scoob

Sorry for the delay with my judgment. I had unexpected (but welcomed) company last night.

Anyway, here we go:

After hearing both sides of this argument, examining and re-examining the evidence, doing some background research of my own, considering the pre-existing precedents of prep areas and era specific draft choices, and thinking about what would be the best thing to do in the interest of fairness, I've come to this conclusion.

During the majority of Cogliostro's character history, which, since Id did not state an era specific version, would mean, by default, he gets the latest incarnation of Cog and the character's entire canon history, I have no evidence which would lead me to believe the crown is "standard equipment" for Cog, along the lines of Captain America's shield or Batman's batarangs. For most of his character history Cog did not use any powers at all due to having been a hellspawn, and the issue that if he'd used up the last small bit of his symbiote powers which he had left, he'd be condemned to hell. He only obtains the Crown and Throne after committing suicide to gain access to hell, and then tricking and setting a trap for Spawn utilizing an artifact given to him by Mammon. Then, with Spawn's relinquished crown and the vacant throne now in his possession due to the coup, Cog uses the powers of these newly obtained artifacts to restore Spawn's humanity and send him back to Earth, and then give control of hell to other demons so he could build his tower.

It is my opinion that this situation is more akin to Thanos or Adam Warlock obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet than it would be to Captain America or Batman's regular use of their Shield/batarangs. My ruling is that the Crown and Throne are in Cog's possession/he has access to them currently in Hell, but per his entire character history, these items are not his standard equipment, just currently in his possession/employ. The Throne and Crown could not be brought into combat by any means per the tech/weaponry rule, but using the powers of these artifacts in prep to enhance your team would be legal (per the previous Brainiac/Miracle Machine ruling).

Note: Clause over victory.

Victory over this match, entitles our team the following:
1. Total recollection, of memory, knowledge and experience. Memories will be retained in Sage.
2. If applicable I will also strip, their souls and retain them for memory retention purposes. Souls/memories will be retained in Spawn.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Sorry for the delay with my judgment. I had unexpected (but welcomed) company last night.

Anyway, here we go:

After hearing both sides of this argument, examining and re-examining the evidence, doing some background research of my own, considering the pre-existing precedents of prep areas and era specific draft choices, and thinking about what would be the best thing to do in the interest of fairness, I've come to this conclusion.

During the majority of Cogliostro's character history, which, since Id did not state an era specific version, would mean, by default, he gets the latest incarnation of Cog and the character's entire canon history, I have no evidence which would lead me to believe the crown is "standard equipment" for Cog, along the lines of Captain America's shield or Batman's batarangs. For most of his character history Cog did not use any powers at all due to having been a hellspawn, and the issue that if he'd used up the last small bit of his symbiote powers which he had left, he'd be condemned to hell. He only obtains the Crown and Throne after committing suicide to gain access to hell, and then tricking and setting a trap for Spawn utilizing an artifact given to him by Mammon. Then, with Spawn's relinquished crown and the vacant throne now in his possession due to the coup, Cog uses the powers of these newly obtained artifacts to restore Spawn's humanity and send him back to Earth, and then give control of hell to other demons so he could build his tower.

It is my opinion that this situation is more akin to Thanos or Adam Warlock obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet than it would be to Captain America or Batman's regular use of their Shield/batarangs. My ruling is that the Crown and Throne are in Cog's possession/he has access to them currently in Hell, but per his entire character history, these items are not his standard equipment, just currently in his possession/employ. The Throne and Crown could not be brought into combat by any means per the tech/weaponry rule, but using the powers of these artifacts in prep to enhance your team would be legal (per the previous Brainiac/Miracle Machine ruling).

So drafting Wong for 15/20 gives you access to all the artifacts stored in his classic base? (Dr Strange's Sanctom)

I still can't believe they essentially drafted a herald for 15 points ... and got away with it.

Originally posted by id369
Note: Clause over victory.

Victory over this match, entitles our team the following:
1. Total recollection, of memory, knowledge and experience. Memories will be retained in Sage.
2. If applicable I will also strip, their souls and retain them for memory retention purposes. Souls/memories will be retained in Spawn.

Interesting, though I don't actually recall seeing any votes come in.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Interesting, though I don't actually recall seeing any votes come in.

I just wanted judges, and members to keep this in mind. 😮

Originally posted by Scoobless
So drafting Wong for 15/20 gives you access to all the artifacts stored in his classic base? (Dr Strange's Sanctom)

No. That would be in the realm of drafting Jarvis or Alfred, which wouldn't give you the use of Ironman or Batman's armaments, just their databases. Don't forget the ruling on general team use versus individual character equipment (for example, you couldn't draft Hawkeye and then use any member of the Avenger's equipment, only equipment that is general use for all team members without any prohibitions).

Originally posted by illadelph12
No. That would be in the realm of drafting Jarvis or Alfred, which wouldn't give you the use of Ironman or Batman's armaments, just their databases. Don't forget the ruling on general team use versus individual character equipment (for example, you couldn't draft Hawkeye and then use any member of the Avenger's equipment, only equipment that is general use for all team members without any prohibitions).

What if I could show Wong using the Wand of Watoomb, or any other of these items? none of which would be "standard equipment" even for Dr Strange ... it is his base too and he can use them when he needs to.

If we're saying the crown isn't standard gear then there's very little, if any, difference with that scenario.

It would also bring the Infinity Gems into play as the Illuminati members have access to them (which we didn't even try to use because we thought it was blatantly illegal)

That's still a different distinction Scoob.

In the case of Wong (or other similar characters such as Alfred or Jarvis), he's a servant, and at times he is granted permission/asked to use items which belong to Dr. Strange (or Batman, or Ironman) to aide Dr. Strange in something he is doing. Possession of the items is still Dr. Strange's, Wong is simply granted occasional, situational access to them to help him out.

It's like, for example, if you lived with your Dad and he gave you permission to use his power tools to help him with some maintenance in the garage, but under normal circumstances you didn't have permission to just grab it and do whatever you wanted with it without his permission/directions. Now, since you live in the same house and it is your residence as well, yes, you'd have access to it, but it isn't your personal property and it's actually the property of the head of the household, so you wouldn't just have free access to it whenever you wished (hence the ruling on general use equipment at a prep base versus specific character/restricted use equipment).

In the case of Cog, it is actually his equipment/possession currently, but it's just not his standard issue, regularly depicted use for his entire canon character history equipment (like Cap's shield or Ironman's armor).

I hope that makes it clearer.

Originally posted by illadelph12
it is actually his equipment/possession currently, but it's just not his standard issue, regularly depicted use for his entire canon character history equipment (like Cap's shield or Ironman's armor).

I hope that makes it clearer.

It does, it sounds a lot like the Boy Blue case again when you put it like that.

The whole "low point drafting for mega point weaponry" thing I mean.

Smurph actually brought the equipment into battle. If he'd only used it in prep, it would have been legal.

Badabing wrote on Nov 29th, 2008 12:36 PM:
Congrats all.

My decision comes down to a few things: Delph's rulings, my interpretation of the rulings, the prep and strategies.

So, here we go.

I believed most of what team Id/KK had done with their prep. I did have reservations about the total extent of powers being granted to amp up their team though.

Team Leo/Scoobs appeared to cover most of their claims pretty well. I saw very few loose ends.

The rulings. Basically I'm assuming that the amps are legal but bringing an amped Spawn into the battle was illegal. Under my assumption, this leaves Cable and Sage/OMAC with no King Spawn. Aside from 1/3 of team Id/KK not being in the battle, I wasn't shown proof that their team would even keep all the amp ups once they entered the battle field since there was no King Spawn there. Or how long the amp ups would last without King Spawn.

Now the match. Basically with my understanding of the rulings, I believe that team Id/KK would be overwhelmed being one man down. Again, since I saw no proof that the amps would last or be viable without King Spawn on the battle field. Had it been legal the outcome could have been much different. But since the match broke down into a debate about legalities on the first page, I have no proof really backing any claims that the amp ups would be viable or last without King Spawn.

My vote: Leo/Scoobs

-V- wrote on Nov 29th, 2008 12:49 PM:
Alrightt...

Let's get this over with, shall we?

Needless to say this was a big of an ugly match, but I would much rather than either/both sides throwing in the towel because it's "meaningless"; therefore I must applaud both sides for the effort (extra effort, if you count all the time spent arguing once the match had officially fin ished) they put in.

Unfortunately only one side can win, and that one side for me was LEO/SCOOBLESS, why? I think id/Kandy got a little side-tracked by all the discussion about whether their tactics were legal or not and this left them a little vulnerable, Leo/Scoob on the other hard covered their tracks much better.

After sorting out all the legal issues that came up in this match we finally get to the true matter at hand. I'll keep this short (well, relatively short for my usual judgments):

There weren't many actual battle posts since this match became more lawsuit than battle debate. The main points are the following:

-Spawn's use of the crown and amps of his teammates stand.
-Id granted his teammates symbiotes and then amped their abilities via the Crown's powers, which was legal.
-Id internalized the Crown and brought it to battle which was illegal and would prohibit Spawn from battle, thereby causing the match to be a 2 vs. 3 handicap.

I really like Leo & Scoobs plan. It reminds me of a tech based plan I'd come up with. Very inventive, and it will serve them well in the playoffs. In this match in particular, however, with all the fervor over King Spawn and the use of the Crown, the fact that Id healed Cable and restored him to his "God-like" full powered telekinetic form, plus unlocking Cog's full hellspawn abilities without limits and merging them together creates an extremely formidable, and legal, amalgamation, and I believe even in the absence of King Spawn himself, God Cable/Full Hellspawn Cog could still dismantle Leo/Scoob's tech based team, though outnumbered, but not necessarily outgunned. Maybe if the match contained more actual posts spelling out specifics rather than just arguing legalities things would be a bit less cloudy, but based on what was presented, in my opinion, Id/Kandy's team would be the victor.

Judge's Vote: Id369/Kandy