DC's Fear of Change!

The other day I was happy to receive my newest edition of Wizard Magazine but quickly upset to see the newest incarnation of the JLA. Actually it wasn't the newest incarnation of the JLA itself that up set me but rather the fact that Freddy's back in the Captain Marvel Jr. blue outfit. I know it probably seems like some thing very minor to complain about but it just really annoys me.

See I really loved the Trials of Shazam story and thought it was one of the best done stories with transition of power by DC in some time. To me all of it was symbolic. Freddy had finally taken the lead and claimed the red costume and full mantel as the champion of the gods and earths mightiest mortal. While he kept enough of his own look to distinguish himself form Billy's Captain Marvel. It just feels to me like in putting Freddy back in the classic blue they're just busting his balls and him back to the 2nd class hero in Billy's shadow he use to be.

I guess it wouldn't bother me so much but DC is always doing this. They have some grand story about major change in the universe and rising/falling heroes and people taking their places stepping up and claiming the mantles of their former mentors. Only to just turn right around and go right back to the former status quo. God forbid they take a chance that actually lets time progress and natural change occur.

Its just more of why, as much as I want to like DC. Every time they do something new and interesting that actually shows new interest and stimulates the stories they just hit undo after a shot time. They always go right back to the status quo again and again.

Anyway I just wanted to open a thread to discuss this and see if anyone else agreed with me or what some other opinions on things like this are.

Originally posted by Entity
The other day I was happy to receive my newest edition of Wizard Magazine but quickly upset to see the newest incarnation of the JLA. Actually it wasn't the newest incarnation of the JLA itself that up set me but rather the fact that Freddy's back in the Captain Marvel Jr. blue outfit. I know it probably seems like some thing very minor to complain about but it just really annoys me.

See I really loved the Trials of Shazam story and thought it was one of the best done stories with transition of power by DC in some time. To me all of it was symbolic. Freddy had finally taken the lead and claimed the red costume and full mantel as the champion of the gods and earths mightiest mortal. While he kept enough of his own look to distinguish himself form Billy's Captain Marvel. It just feels to me like in putting Freddy back in the classic blue they're just busting his balls and him back to the 2nd class hero in Billy's shadow he use to be.

I guess it wouldn't bother me so much but DC is always doing this. They have some grand story about major change in the universe and rising/falling heroes and people taking their places stepping up and claiming the mantles of their former mentors. Only to just turn right around and go right back to the former status quo. God forbid they take a chance that actually lets time progress and natural change occur.

Its just more of why, as much as I want to like DC. Every time they do something new and interesting that actually shows new interest and stimulates the stories they just hit undo after a shot time. They always go right back to the status quo again and again.

Anyway I just wanted to open a thread to discuss this and see if anyone else agreed with me or what some other opinions on things like this are.

imo, the only true captain marvel is billy batson. the only superman is kal-el, the only batman is bruce wayne, the only cyclops is scott summers, the only silver surfer is norrin rad, the only thor, is, well, thor...

dc isn't afraid of change. quite the opposite. didio seems to like tinkering with DC more than he really should, imo...

I agree with Ent ... though it isn't just DC that's guilty of clinging to the status quo (don't get me started on OMD)

Marvel used to be terrible for it as well but have taken huge steps recently with the evolution of Thor, the death of Captain America and Tony Stark taking over SHIELD.

DC ... they tend to start out well, then pull back just as things need to take a final step.

Bart Allen - Impulse - Kid Flash - Flash - Dead (I like Wally, but still)

Even big stories like Identity Crisis only affect relatively minor characters over the long term.

Trinity is the perfect example of DC always coming back to the same formula:

"Use SM, BM & WW, ignore the other fan favourite characters for 90% of the story and we'll make $$$"

I agree with Raoul to a degree (Scott being Cyclops), but I also see where Entity comes from. I think that passing the mantle is something very difficult to conceive in comic books, specially after so many years with a very popular character. I don't feel change is impossible, I think that real comic deaths -like Marvel's Captain Marvel's- are viable to make things move. But until now the idea of passing the mantle has been impossible to apply.

I mean, were Batman to die, would people rather have Dick being Batman or to continue his career as Nightwing? I mean, the character Batman will always trace its roots to Bruce, even after mantle passing Batman's history when passed to other media would somehow pass through Bruce or change entirely. Do a Nightwing movie and you will be able to talk about Dick.

Wally filled in for Barry nicely for 20+ years.
Tim is great as Robin.
Cassandra is great as Batgirl.

But replacing Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman, or Captain Marvel, will always be temporary at best.

It's more noticeable with DC because Didio seems hellbent on getting everything back to the Silver Age status quo but Marvel is just as guilty. One More Day already being named as an example. Comics are just one big repetitive circle.

Almost all the originals are far better characters than their sidekicks or Kid-versions.

Just how it is.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Almost all the originals are far better characters than their sidekicks or Kid-versions.

Just how it is.

Originally posted by Juntai
Wally filled in for Barry nicely for 20+ years.
Tim is great as Robin.
Cassandra is great as Batgirl.

But replacing Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman, or Captain Marvel, will always be temporary at best.

✅

Originally posted by Cavalier
Almost all the originals are far better characters than their sidekicks or Kid-versions.

Just how it is.

Every character has potential.

...except Cyclops

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
They're only "better" because they've been developed more.

Every character has potential.

...except Cyclops

cyclops > kyle.

we had this discussion last night...

Originally posted by Raoul
cyclops > kyle.

we had this discussion last night...

Originally posted by Red Hulk
I hate Kyle, but that is a flat out lie.

you weren't on msn. we discussed it at length.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
They're only "better" because they've been developed more.

Every character has potential.

...except Cyclops

They're still better because of it though.

Originally posted by Cavalier
I realize that.

They're still better because of it though.

That kind of stagnation is why comic sales dip lower and lower. Why keep reading when these guys are essentially the same character they were 40 years ago?

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Yeah but it seems silly to say Captain Marvel should always be Billy Batson when Freddy has never been given a chance. I mean, I'm pretty sure the majority of this forum likes Wally over Barry and Jay, yes?

That kind of stagnation is why comic sales dip lower and lower. Why keep reading when these guys are essentially the same character they were 40 years ago?

Other examples would be Connor Hawke, Sand, Wally, etc. No doubt that there are the doubles out there that could be fleshed out a little, and deserve to. But I never want to see a permanent replacement for the big three, and I really dislike the idea of "replacement" in general. It worked for Wally, and it sells books, but I'd hate to see a new Captain America running around (for instance).

On a case by case basis, replacement or simply growing out the old sidekicks can be a great thing. On the other hand, I look at the Teen Titans and just think "... meh. JLA's better".

The Flash was viewed the same way as Superman and Batman at one point (i.e. Flash should always Barry). If Wally could work out, there's no reason Dick as Batman can't work save fanboy pressure. Grayson actually has the bonus of being a well liked character among fans unlike Wally who was a shit character until about 50 issues into his Flash run.

However, instead, he'll remain Nightwing aka Batman Lite until the point where he gets killed, Tim Drake assumes the Nightwing mantle, some new 13 year old becomes Robin and Bruce is still magically 30 years old and fighting the Joker for the trillionth time.

I'm just not seeing how that's a better alternative than just letting these characters fulfill the purpose for which they were created.

Timing of this thread=fail.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Timing of this thread=fail.

We won't know that for sure until maybe a year from now. If DS gets beaten, everything goes back to pretty much the status quo, and maybe Barry becomes the Flash agains, this thread will have been immensely justified.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
The Flash was viewed the same way as Superman and Batman at one point (i.e. Flash should always Barry). If Wally could work out, there's no reason Dick as Batman can't work save fanboy pressure. Grayson actually has the bonus of being a well liked character among fans unlike Wally who was a shit character until about 50 issues into his Flash run.

However, instead, he'll remain Nightwing aka Batman Lite until the point where he gets killed, Tim Drake assumes the Nightwing mantle, some new 13 year old becomes Robin and Bruce is still magically 30 years old and fighting the Joker for the trillionth time.

I'm just not seeing how that's a better alternative than just letting these characters fulfill the purpose for which they were created.

Yes, it worked for Wally, but to be fair, Barry was actually the second Flash, and I just can't see it working the same way with characters that are so archetypal as Superman and Batman.

I'd rather characters were developed as their own characters, rather than the next in line for the Bat-throne (or whichever character you choose).

As far as Nightwing goes, I don't think it's costing anybody any harm to keep him in the niche he's filled out for himself right now. If it's really necessary for his character growth, kill off Bruce (or maim or whatever), but don't take Nightwing's character and turn it into Bruce's.

Originally posted by Cavalier
I'd rather see Bruce retire (or die or lose his mind or something), have Nightwing get a costume change and maybe move back to Gotham permanently, but keep the name Nightwing, or come up with a brand new one. I'm not against sidekicks becoming something greater, I just don't want a Batman 2.0

Yes, it worked for Wally, but to be fair, Barry was actually the second Flash, and I just can't see it working the same way with characters that are so archetypal as Superman and Batman.

I'd rather characters were developed as their own characters, rather than the next in line for the Bat-throne (or whichever character you choose).

As far as Nightwing goes, I don't think it's costing anybody any harm to keep him in the niche he's filled out for himself right now. If it's really necessary for his character growth, kill off Bruce (or maim or whatever), but don't take Nightwing's character and turn it into Bruce's.

From a story point of view, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. These are symbols and ideas in addition to being characters. The line in RIP where Bruce says "Batman and Robin will never die" reinforces that. Personally, I wouldn't look as Dick as Batman 2.0 anymore than I look at Kyle as Green Lantern 2.0 (or rather 5.0). It's just the logical progression of the universe they've given us. The keyword there is progression. There must be progression in these books or else, why even bother reading?

I talk about Wally in this topic because he's the one big success story of superhero sidekicks but even he's about to be pushed aside so Barry can return. At this point, we've gone beyond the basic archetypes. This in addition to Hal being back, Oliver Queen being back, and even Supergirl kicking Superboy to the wayside. I know about the legal issues there but they could have just changed his name.

As far as Nightwing is concerned, he's probably in the worst situation possible for a superhero. Not the main guy but also not the sidekick. He literally serves no purpose which is why Didio thought it was ok to kill him during the last Crisis if not for Geoff Johns intervention. You gotta wonder how long Wally and Kyle are going to stick around as Flash and Green Lantern B.